Kellie Armstrong
Strangford · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Fisheries, Aquaculture and Water Environment Bill. It is timely and important. Miss McIlveen, a fellow MLA for the Strangford constituency, has just spoken.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill reflects the realities of the post-Brexit landscape by aligning protections here with those in other UK jurisdictions and the UK Fisheries Act. That consistency is important for standards, enforcement and international confidence in our products.”
“Last year, I met the Department and we discussed that. The opportunities for seaweed farming in Strangford lough are wonderful, and the opportunities from seaweed that Queen's University has identified are incredible. We are lucky to have those opportunities on our doorstep, as long as there is licensing and it is properly looked after.”
“Moving beyond managing individual fisheries, the Bill recognises the interconnected nature of our rivers, loughs and seas — an approach that is very much in line with Alliance's commitment to evidence-based environmental policy. The inclusion of a national benefit objective is also significant.”
“A while ago, we saw that commercial bottom trawling had all but decimated the horse mussel population in Strangford lough. It has since been changed to a special area of conservation. That limits a lot of activity in the lough, which is not a bad thing considering that horse mussels are coming back.”
“They allow for timely action on lower-level offences without over-burdening the courts while still acting as a meaningful deterrent. If only everybody were acting properly, we would not need to have those deterrents, but we are where we are, and the Bill hopes to improve upon that.”
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“— perhaps you will stop using petitions of concern to take my vote away.”
“Can I speak? I have been given an intervention. <BR /> <BR />Mr Burrows, if you have any respect for women —”
“I wish that I were one of your favourite MLAs. <BR /> <BR />You have just talked about women who could be the victims of rape, and about their being disenfranchised. In the 10 years that I have been in the House, I have been disenfranchised when cross-community voting has been called. You have disenfranchised me. You do not know how I was going to vote.”
“Of course you will not. You will just besmirch.”
“That way, we can make sure that the issues that such children face in their lives are dealt with there and then by the right professionals, as opposed to taking the approach of, "Throw away the key".”
“<BR /> <BR />That young man's case highlighted to me why we need to look at children and parenting, even if the state has to parent a child, and why we have to put resources into that child before saying, "Lock them up and throw away the key. Put them into custody". That young man felt that he was always chastised by being put in a room, locked away or put in a police car. If they had dealt with him earlier and treated the child, his outcome would have been so much better. The best way for the Government of Northern Ireland to do this is to make sure that we do not give social workers the opportunity to say, "Phone 999 and get the cops to come and lift him". Instead, we should say, "No, actually, it's your job to work with this child now and to try to stop him going into the criminal justice system".”
“By the age of 16, his opinion was, "Sure the cops will just come and lift me, and I'll get put inside for a while. If I do time inside, sure what's the difference?". The Jay review that was done by Action for Children highlighted the fact that, if a young person does not have preventative measures and the support that they should have at a younger age and if we immediately go for a judicial approach and put them into custody, that becomes normalised and leads to harm. Action for Children talks strongly about adverse childhood incidents and how much they damage a young person throughout their life. Those children often end up in poverty, homelessness, addiction or so many difficult positions.”
“I thank the Member for giving way; I appreciate that you are giving way to a lot of Members. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that you have met a lot of groups, but I thought that it would be worthwhile to mention my experience at this point. I met a young man of 16 years of age through Include Youth. He had no faith in any adult because he had had 36 social workers in his 16 years. He was a lovely young fella, but he did not know how to manage his emotions; he found it difficult to do so. He was in a care home. When he was about 11, he got cross and threw a cup at the wall. The automatic reaction was, "Lift him and put him into custody". The reaction was not to deal with him, work with him, find out what was going on and train him on how to work with his emotions but, "Lift him and put him in custody".”
“Minister, of course we absolutely want to get rid of housing fraud in any system such as this; it loses us far too much money in Northern Ireland. Mistakes can be made during investigations, however. What appeals process can be built into the Housing Executive's investigation system?”
“I thank the Member very much for giving way. During the last collapse of the Assembly, many of us who were community representatives met the then permanent secretary, who spelt out, in no uncertain terms, how very hard the Assembly and the Department were pushing to get that money into Northern Ireland so that we could lead the way on what the priorities should be and how the money should be spent here. That was refused point blank by Westminster.”
“The Bill recognises that there will be an opportunity for deaf and deafblind people to access training for the time when they need to depend on sign language as their main form of communication. I welcome that. <BR /> <BR />Today is a fantastic day. It is a day that you have long waited for. It is a day that Francis Maginn long waited for. It is the day on which we say goodbye to the Milan decision and say in BSL and ISL, "Welcome to Northern Ireland, sign language". Your languages are exactly the same as all other languages. Today is a fantastic day.”
“This is the first time that the Assembly has provided such an inclusive consultation period. We provided video links so that people could sign their responses to and thoughts about the Bill to us online. We provided Committee sessions with live interpretation, meaning that we could have a one-to-one discussion with someone in their language as part of our considerations. Those considerations have been reflected in the Bill, and I very much acknowledge the Minister, the Committee and the Assembly for accepting the amendments that were tabled. The amendments were not difficult, because they made the Bill the best that it could be for all of you. <BR /> <BR />As a member of the deaf community — I am hard of hearing — I do not know at which stage of my life I may have to depend on sign language.”
“In five years, we hope to see every Department with an action plan that sets out how it will provide access to services in sign language when you need them. As we heard in the evidence provided to the Committee, we hope that nobody else will have to attend a health appointment without sign language, go to work and be unable to use sign language or be turned away from an employment support mechanism because there is no sign language there. Today and for the next five years, there is a lot of work to do to make sure that the action plans are right for you as a community. <BR /> <BR />The process was long in coming, but it was not so long for the Bill. I thank the Minister and his departmental colleagues for their hard work in taking the Sign Language Bill through. I also thank the Assembly.”
“Today is a fantastic day — a fantastic day — for me and for the deaf community. Today, we will agree the Sign Language Bill. Today, Northern Ireland joins everyone else on National BSL Day in celebrating the progress of sign language. "Thank you" to all in the deaf community for your patience. It has been a hard-won battle. Today, you get legislation that will enable public services to deliver in your language. Today and from today forward, you have a lot of work to do — more work to ensure that public services live up to the action plans that you will help to create. You have enabled the Sign Language Bill. This is your victory. Thank you for all your hard work so far. <BR /> <BR />What will we see in five years' time?”
“However, we have got to a stage where we have an inclusive Bill that accepts the whole of the deaf community, and for those of us — the thousands of us — who will need sign language, that there have been programmes about, and older people, that will come forward. That includes people who have had chemotherapy, people who have lost their hearing through meningitis, and veterans who have lost their hearing because of the noise and bangs that come from shooting ranges. There are a lot of us out there.”
“Thank you very much, Minister, for giving way. I appreciate what has been said so far. Having held over 50 meetings with members of the deaf community in advance of tabling amendments and having listened throughout the Bill's Committee Stage as a member of the Communities Committee, I know that the issue had been raised by a significant number of people who have hearing loss and who are left out of both the deaf community and the hearing community. I agree that scrutiny is very important. I just wish that the Department had been able to understand that a little more during Committee Stage. It then might have been able to table an amendment at Consideration Stage.”
“I now feel that I am part of the deaf community; that I am not excluded from that community; that my hearing impairments are considered; and that my communications and those of other people like me — there are thousands of us in Northern Ireland — will be considered when we need to depend on sign language for communication.”
“The Minister will bring that forward soon, which is fantastic. Hopefully, just after that, the King will sign off on it, and it will become an Act. Members of the deaf community have been asking me, "Why are there so many stages? We've already agreed all of this". It is coming. We are almost there. It is fantastic and inclusive legislation. It is good that the Assembly will be included because quite a lot of the regulations will have to be brought back to the House to be agreed, which means that the deaf community will be consulted through the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />I say, "Thank you very much" to all those who have been involved.”
“<BR /> <BR />Like the Chair of the Committee, I am keen for areas in the explanatory and financial memorandum to be updated to ensure that we have all the best guidance sitting in the background, so that whoever the Minister for Communities is — it may be the same Minister — has clear intentional guidance so that, when they take forward the issues in the Sign Language Bill, which will become the Sign Language Act, they know what to follow. <BR /> <BR />Often, the first language of a number of people in the deaf community is not written English, so, to be clear, today we have Further Consideration Stage, with the last of the amendments. I am delighted that it looks as though there will be unanimous agreement on them. The next stage is Final Stage, and that is it in the Assembly.”
“In fact, when I met Caroline last Friday, she confirmed that she knew from her previous work with older people in the deaf community that that was a vital provision to add to the Bill. Northern Ireland is doing something wonderful, and I thank the Department for Communities for bringing that forward. I know that it is a difficult time, given the legislative programme that we have for the end of the mandate.”
“I would love to see that coming forward, if possible, from the Minister and the Department, because that would be another step towards the delivery of BSL and ISL across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Having met the BDA and Caroline, I was delighted to hear that Northern Ireland already leads the way across the United Kingdom and these islands in the work that has been done by those in the Bill Office who have been involved in the development of the Bill and by the staff in the Committee and the Department and all the organisations and groups. I consulted many people in the deaf community on my amendments, including friends, family and others, to ensure that what I was bringing forward was wanted.”
“I thank the Minister and the Department, because the Bill builds in a requirement for deaf people to be engaged with as the process moves forward. As I will say again at Final Stage, we need to ensure that deaf people can take part. That means ensuring that there is transport and payment, if necessary, so that those people face no barriers when taking part in the legislation or the regulations. <BR /> <BR />I believe that a celebratory event sponsored by the Minister and the Department is coming up on 28 April. I wish everyone well with that. I have written to the Minister's private office about the potential of a play coming to Stormont about Francis Maginn, who was one of the first people to push sign language.”
“Ten years ago, when I went to my first appointment and finally got to see an audiologist after many years, I was told that my hearing had gone down by over 40%. That is now closer to 50%. I will have to rely on sign language as I go forward in life and get older. As I get older, I would have missed out under the Bill if I was a child, because I would not have had it. It came along only when I was in my 30s. After speaking to Caroline Doherty of the BDA, I believe that there is a growing number of people who, through illness, age or trauma, are losing their hearing and will need access to sign language, particularly to engage with public services and to not be isolated and left lonely. We have seen some TV programmes that have talked about that. <BR /> <BR />We have a huge opportunity here.”
“At Further Consideration Stage, we have a Bill that is workable, and I thank the Minister and all the officials for tidying up the wording of the amendments before us now. Those in the deaf community, of whom I have met quite a few, including the BDA recently, have spoken about the importance of recognising the whole of the deaf community — that all of us matter and that all our needs will be taken forward. That is why, in whatever my position may be in the future, I hope to help the Minister and the Department in devising and bringing forward guidance. <BR /> <BR />We have to remember that 26,000 people in Northern Ireland are sitting on a waiting list for up to seven years for an audiology appointment. That will be their first test to see whether they have damage to their hearing.”
“To be honest, it is wonderful. Today is a good day for the deaf community. <BR /> <BR />What I will say, to reiterate what Mrs Cameron said, is that this is only the start of the work. There is a lot more to be done. The deaf community has an intrinsic role to play. That will not just mean deaf people taking part in helping to write the guidance and potential regulations; we also need to accept that they are professionals. They know about the deaf community and about BSL and ISL and should, therefore, be funded appropriately to take part, moving away from tokenism to being an integral part of how the Bill will go forward when it becomes an Act. <BR /> <BR />I am delighted that we have got to this stage. I am delighted that the House saw fit to agree the amendments at Consideration Stage.”
“— I know that there are some changes there —”
“I wish that, as an individual Member, I had not had to table amendments at Consideration Stage. I wish that the Department had listened a bit more. We now have clause 12, which defines members of the deaf community as:”
“Today is a good day for the deaf community. I declare an interest, as I am a Member with a hearing impairment and a member of the deaf community. <BR /> <BR />Until the amendments were made, I was not going to be a member of the deaf community, so I am delighted that we did that at the previous stage. Today, from the OLC, we have better defined and tidied-up legislation that includes the group of people that I belong to. <BR /> <BR />I am absolutely delighted to say that I will support all the Minister's amendments. I have no issue with any of them; in fact, I went to the extent of having my name added to some of the amendments, as I agree with the tidying up. Some of the amendments are fantastic and make the Bill completely clearer to read and easier to understand.”
“I thank the Minister very much for his answer. All MLAs representing Ards and North Down have been invited to a meeting on Friday with those groups. I hope that the fair funding principle, as outlined in the partnership agreement with the community and voluntary sector, can be followed and that those groups are not asked to go into their reserves and other areas that would take them outside of the Charity Commission's rules. Does the Minister agree, therefore, that it is important that those groups are still sustainable and that they can continue to deliver their work under the small pockets of deprivation programme?”
“Thank you very much, Minister. Can you outline for the House and for those watching how the legislation will benefit the fishing industry?”
“Thank you, Minister, for the update on the nature-based solutions and the role that they will play in the third climate change adaptation programme. I should declare an interest: I am a member of the Ards peninsula coastal erosion group, and I have been out at Anne's Point, Mount Stewart, where people can see how nature-based solutions are solving some problems of flooding. <BR /> <BR />You mentioned that the climate change adaptation programme sets out the requirement for a lead Department. Will you provide the next steps in designating the lead Department that will oversee coastal management?”
“I will not be very long, I promise. I know that the debate is about legislation so we can all talk for longer, but even so. As you know, I sit on the Committee for Communities, and we are very concerned about the unintended consequences that can arise when people receive an income and whether or not that can be not counted towards universal credit. That is one of the things that I and the Committee will ask the Bill sponsor to confirm, because it is Westminster that will have to allow that to happen.”
“Does the Member agree that we also have an urban/rural split when it comes to fuel poverty? Those of us who live in rural areas are dependent on oil because the gas network has never reached us. People in urban areas have a lot more choice than those in rural areas.”
“We have heard from others that it was better than in other parts of these islands where sign language Bills have been enacted. <BR /> <BR />I ask the Minister and the Department to consider using the learning from the way in which the Assembly has allowed consultation to happen, where people can provide their consultation responses by video in sign language. That is so valuable and means that people are able to communicate in their language.”
“It is beautiful to see the smiles on those children's faces when others communicate back with them. <BR /> <BR />As others have said, this is an important Bill. On behalf of the Alliance Party, I thank the Minister and his Department for bringing it forward. I hope we can get this all done and dusted before the summer recess or even before that if we could. It is vital that we show the deaf community that, when we commit to doing something and legislating, we do that. I thank the Minister and the Department for doing that. <BR /> <BR />I also thank my colleagues in the Communities Committee. This was one of our first big pieces of work in the mandate, and we took a bit of extra time in order to get the consultation right. That was done well, and it was very inclusive.”
“People who have used sign language from birth or later in life and are fantastic at doing that and have a shared life experience that they can express through sign language are vital when we are talking about the culture and promotion of sign language. <BR /> <BR />We are joined today by Brian Symington and John Carberry, and I am thinking about John's wife Agnes, all of whom, through their use of sign language, have been able to support and help children, particularly those who attend Jordanstown School, to use sign language in a way that I cannot at the moment, because my sign language is static and stilted. Theirs is a free-flowing, beautiful language that can be shared with children so that they, too, can use their signs in expressive ways.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome amendment No 20 to clause 9: five years for the first report and three years thereafter. When you count up the timelines, five years is plenty of time for the Department and people in the deaf community to work together to bring forward some of the regulations that are outstanding. Every three years means that reports will be laid in different mandates rather than, perhaps, some falling within one mandate. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 21, to leave out "subject to negative resolution" and insert "approved by a resolution of, the Assembly", draws attention to clause 10, which is important because it concerns accreditation of teachers and interpreters. <BR /> <BR />It is vital that we do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.”
“The Minister and his Department had also committed to add to the explanatory and financial memorandum the intention that, when consultation takes place, representatives of BSL and ISL would be considered. The Bill mentions two groups or individuals, which may be one from each language, if that is appropriate. As the Minister rightly said, there will be parts of regulations that may relate only to deafblind people, for instance, or could relate to ISL or BSL, so that makes perfect sense. <BR /> <BR />Changing the requirement to lay regulations from negative resolution to require the approval of the Assembly also helps to improve transparency. That is something that we are all keen to do. One of the recommendations that came out of the RHI report was that transparency should be improved in this place.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is an absolute delight today to see that, in group 2, the Minister and the Department have increased the number of organisations and people who will be consulted, given that the Bill covers a number of languages; not just one language but BSL, ISL and, eventually, deafblind. It means that consideration has been given. The Committee was concerned that, if just one person was listed, in the future, it could have been a representative of BSL or a representative of ISL. That has been changed now by amendment No 18, which is the new clause that is being added before clause 9.”
“Thank you very much. As I said earlier, group 2 amendments, all in the name of the Minister, will be accepted by the Alliance Party today, and we are delighted to do so. <BR /> <BR />The Minister and his officials engaged with the Committee for Communities with open ears. They were willing to listen and to take forward amendments that have significantly improved the Bill. Sometimes, when officials come to Committees, they do so with some hesitation and concern that we are just there to get in the way and be awkward. However, to be honest, we all believe in the same thing, which is that we have to make better provision for people who are deaf and use BSL, ISL and deafblind language.”
“I will make it very clear. As stated in Chapter 1, if we are promoting sign language, it is not about limiting sign language to people who currently require it because they are deaf. Those people need to communicate with others, and others need to communicate with them. The Bill should open that up. Rather than just saying, "If you use sign language, this applies to you" —. People who use sign language will want to speak to other people, but those other people cannot access supports. If we want to talk to a GP, the GP needs to be able to use sign language. Let us open it up and promote sign language more widely.”
“I appreciate what the Minister is saying, but if the deaf community by itself — those who are already users of sign language — are the only people who are being looked at in the Bill, we are missing the fact that others out there will not be able to communicate with us. We need more than just the deaf people. We need the wider community to be able to speak with us.”
“Just before COVID — unfortunately, we were interrupted by COVID — I was fortunate to go to House Church in Newtownards, where we had up to 30 people learning sign language because they wanted to communicate with other people in the church who used sign language. If you provide it, they will come. At the moment, it is not being provided, so people do not know where the classes are. No further education colleges provide sign language classes in my area.”
“I also thank our BSL and ISL interpreters, who have been with us throughout the Bill's passage and have ensured that our investigation of sign language has not left anyone behind.”
“The Assembly's website videos should be held up as an example of how to effectively engage the deaf community, because those of us who want to use sign language or have no choice but to use sign language are, at last, included. <BR /> <BR />Assembly staff have helped to make the process inclusive, and they have all played an important role in helping us to get to this stage. I would like you, Mr Speaker, to pass on my thanks to the Assembly staff, because their work has been outstanding. Finally, I thank Paula Clarke, whose patience and kindness have helped me and others to start to learn and embrace sign language. That opportunity was provided through the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank every single member of the deaf community for their input and patience throughout this work. I thank the Communities Committee clerking team, who have worked incredibly hard on the Bill. I thank the Assembly's engagement staff, who delivered an innovative and inclusive Committee Stage, ensuring that BSL and ISL users were included and that interpretation was provided. I have heard from several deaf people about how impressed they have been by the online translations, the ability to attend and give evidence at the Committee and at outreach sessions, and the option to respond to online services in BSL or ISL, which is unique in these islands.”
“Therefore, I wish to make a simple change to update the term "who normally use" to "who will benefit from using" sign language. It is more inclusive. I take Mr Durkan's point, however, and, if there is better language that can be brought forward to include all the people who will benefit from using sign language and for others to use sign language, and we can certainly use that. The amendment also reflects the ambition for the legislation to promote and increase usage of sign language. That is something that we all want and is intention of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />On behalf of the Alliance Party, I welcome these amendments. We will be voting in favour of all the amendments in group 1. We will be voting for all the amendments in group 2, which will be the subject of the next debate.”
“<BR /> <BR />My second amendment — amendment No 5 — is a consequential amendment that will only be put if amendment No 4 is made. <BR /> <BR />My third amendment is amendment No 22. The current definition in the Sign Language Bill limits the deaf community to only those who normally use sign language. It does not take into account those who have lost hearing and those whose communication and subsequent isolation will be improved by using sign language. That needs to be changed, because a person with hearing loss — a person who is deaf — may have other options to use in order to convey what they want to say, but we need other people to learn sign language in order to communicate with us. That is the point. If you normally use sign language, but nobody else does, what is the point?”
“In this amendment, I have included the ability for the Department to provide classes for people who have lost their hearing and are becoming deaf. That means that, while they may have English and can read and have communicated throughout their whole life, they cannot hear other people speaking English to them, so they need those people to speak sign language to them. That is the part of the Sign Language Bill that is missing. The Department may, by regulation, bring in charges for the classes, should the Minister and the Department choose to do so. I used the wording that was proposed by the DUP in the then Deaths, Still-Births and Baby Loss Bill to enable the Department to regulate for fees, should the Minister wish to do so. It is not different or unusual for the Assembly, and it has been accepted before.”
“I thank the Minister for that. I do not agree, because there are currently 26,000 people on audiology waiting lists in health trusts across Northern Ireland. They have not even had their first hearing test. You said that we do not know how many people need it. There are no classes to test how many people in Northern Ireland would like to have sign language classes. I want to go to them, my partner wants to go to them, and the rest of my family wants to go to them, but there are none. Unless we have it included in the Bill, I do not think that there will be any classes. <BR /> <BR />The growing number of adults in Northern Ireland who lose their hearing due to age, illness or trauma need to have a specific provision in the Bill, just as has been provided for children, to provide classes for that group.”