Kellie Armstrong
Strangford · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Fisheries, Aquaculture and Water Environment Bill. It is timely and important. Miss McIlveen, a fellow MLA for the Strangford constituency, has just spoken.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill reflects the realities of the post-Brexit landscape by aligning protections here with those in other UK jurisdictions and the UK Fisheries Act. That consistency is important for standards, enforcement and international confidence in our products.”
“Last year, I met the Department and we discussed that. The opportunities for seaweed farming in Strangford lough are wonderful, and the opportunities from seaweed that Queen's University has identified are incredible. We are lucky to have those opportunities on our doorstep, as long as there is licensing and it is properly looked after.”
“Moving beyond managing individual fisheries, the Bill recognises the interconnected nature of our rivers, loughs and seas — an approach that is very much in line with Alliance's commitment to evidence-based environmental policy. The inclusion of a national benefit objective is also significant.”
“A while ago, we saw that commercial bottom trawling had all but decimated the horse mussel population in Strangford lough. It has since been changed to a special area of conservation. That limits a lot of activity in the lough, which is not a bad thing considering that horse mussels are coming back.”
“They allow for timely action on lower-level offences without over-burdening the courts while still acting as a meaningful deterrent. If only everybody were acting properly, we would not need to have those deterrents, but we are where we are, and the Bill hopes to improve upon that.”
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“The vouchers allocated to me were gone in a day. That is how much pressure we face in our constituency offices, and the community and voluntary sector and advice sector face that all the time. Unless we move beyond speeches to strategies and from those strategies to implementation and from implementation to measurable outcomes, we will be back here in a few weeks talking about the families who continue to struggle. I hope that this will be the last debate that we will have in the House without an anti-poverty strategy. Let this be the moment when we stop talking about poverty and start tackling it.”
“No more Ministers should be making decisions that exacerbate the effects of poverty. For example, others have mentioned the Minister of Education, but the cut in holiday hunger support is the type of action that is contrary to ending poverty. What we need now is urgency, clarity and delivery. We need Ministers to work together — the Communities, Education, Finance, Health and Economy Ministers have all been mentioned today — to align decisions with the objectives of a strengthened cross-Executive anti-poverty strategy. We need timelines and accountability, and we need to know when households will feel the difference. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion and the amendment because they reflect the real concerns of our constituents. Recently, as many of you have done, I have been working through the energy scheme.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Hopefully, I will not need that. <BR /> <BR />I agree: the two must go hand in hand. In the past, for instance, the House agreed to mitigations to protect people, but mitigations alone are not a strategy. I acknowledge the draft anti-poverty strategy and its limitations, but I also acknowledge that it alone is not an action plan. Families cannot heat their homes with words; children cannot be nourished by debates; and communities cannot be sustained by motions alone. The amendment is right to call for "measurable poverty reduction targets". That is what we need to see for the multi-year Budget. We need to see a clean Programme for Government with clear objectives, and one of those would be to reduce poverty. <BR /> <BR />The motion is right to demand a revision of the draft anti-poverty strategy.”
“<BR /> <BR />The motion and the amendment recognise the vital role of voluntary and community organisations and call for stronger and more coordinated action from Ministers. We just heard Mr Kingston say that the anti-poverty strategy is an Executive strategy, so we should be seeing something in that from all Ministers, but we do not. How many times must the Assembly debate poverty and the cost of living before we see a completed anti-poverty strategy and that strategy being put into action? How many speeches must we give before families see relief in their bills, children are guaranteed access to affordable food and communities feel the impact of a plan that is not just drafted but delivered?”
“As my colleague Sian Mulholland said, Alliance will support the Sinn Féin motion and the Ulster Unionist amendment. <BR /> <BR />The motion highlights the stark reality that inflation in the UK stands at 3·8%, nearly double the Bank of England's target and higher than the EU average. That is not an abstract figure; it is a daily burden on workers, families, carers and the wider community. The amendment adds an equally urgent dimension: the sharp rise in food prices, growing levels of food insecurity and the unacceptable pressures being placed on household budgets by increases in, for instance, the cost of school meals and the cost to heat a home. It is becoming more difficult, given that you need to have a smartphone to access benefit apps and online portals. It is all costs.”
“I appreciate that the 600 new homes to be used for temporary accommodation will go some way towards dealing with our housing crisis. Are there any plans for the Housing Executive to look at derelict properties across Northern Ireland to see whether they can be added to the total?”
“We should honour it in museums and classrooms and through respectful dialogue, like we are doing today, but not on the walls of our homes and streets. <BR /> <BR />The future of Northern Ireland depends on our ability to imagine something better today. We all know that, too often, you ask the authorities to take something down or remove something because you have been asked to do so by residents, and the authorities say no because they are afraid of the attacks that they may face. Today, in the House, given the support for the motion, we have to say this to all our public authorities: it is public land and public buildings. We are behind you. We want these things removed or re-imaged so that we can have a better Northern Ireland for all.”
“That is an area that very often gets vilified as being unpleasant. People say, "It is very loyalist. Nobody wants to go in there. It is dangerous". The change for that community is incredibly positive, so we must support the Housing Executive's community cohesion teams to work with communities, not against them. <BR /> <BR />The Housing Executive's re-imaging project showed that collaboration can lead to transformation, but we must go further. Any future memorials or murals in Northern Ireland should require formal planning permission. That would ensure public accountability, community consultation and alignment with shared values, and it would prevent the unchecked rise of divisive imagery and promote art that reflects unity, diversity and hope. I do not think that we need to be held hostage by the past any more.”
“In fact, in 2021-22, when the review was done, it confirmed that there were 31 political murals on Housing Executive properties in one of the council areas that I represent. Those images of men — it is always men — wearing balaclavas and holding guns as if they are waiting to ambush or get ready to shoot are being replaced with panels that include local historical information, and I can honestly say that the relief in the area is tangible. Many people have said to me that that change sends out a clear image that the gun and the threat of violence no longer control their community. The pressure of the boot on the neck of the community is being lifted. Billy Sproule of the West Winds Development Association said:”
“As a housing spokesperson, you can understand why I will focus on that. In west Belfast, the Housing Executive partnered with the Falls Community Council and the Upper Springfield Development Trust to remove the controversial Bobby Sands funeral mural. With £5,000 in funding and support from the Ulster Museum, the mural was carefully taken down and preserved, demonstrating a respectful yet forward-looking approach. This is not about erasing history. It is about relocating it to places of education and reflection, just not in our daily lives. <BR /> <BR />In my constituency, there are housing estates that are very uncomfortable to be in because they have paramilitary-themed murals on the walls.”
“It is lovely to be in the House today when we are hearing Members speak with one voice in agreement that this issue is something that we do need to work on across Northern Ireland. What we are talking about today is a step towards healing and progress in this place. I completely support re-imaging our communities. If I was to stand here in front of you and point a gun image at any of you, it would be disgusting, yet I have that in my constituency on the corners of houses. It is time that we recognise that those symbols, while rooted in history, often perpetuate division, fear and territorialism. If we are to build an inclusive, welcoming place for all, we must be brave enough to reshape the visual landscape of our neighbourhoods. <BR /> <BR />The Housing Executive has already begun that journey.”
“Minister, I join you in condemning any sectarianism towards any person involved in sport who is prevented from taking part or progressing purely because of their religion or cultural background. I thank you for your statement today. You say that you are taking "direct control" of an oversight panel. That is an unusual step for a Minister to take. Why do you, rather than one of your arm's-length bodies, need to do that, given the fact that you are so busy with matters of poverty, homelessness and lack of social strategies? Will you clarify why the Department needs to do this?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In today's agenda, the Minister is due to speak after Question Time. As it happens, the House has moved through its business a lot quicker than scheduled. Members only received the statement at 12.30 pm, giving them very little time to review it. Could we have time to review the Minister's statement by pushing that item of business back until after Question Time?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Having sat on the AERC in a previous mandate, I agree that that is certainly the place to review this. If we look at the name of the ministerial code of conduct, however, we can see that it is the 'Northern Ireland Executive Ministerial Code'. That is why, as set out the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the First Minister and deputy First Minister are responsible for it.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. As you know, I am Chair of the Committee on Procedures, and I am well across Standing Orders. I ask you to rule on whether it is appropriate for a Member to dictate how another Member should act in the House when that is clearly laid out in Standing Orders.”
“I am shaking my head because the Member perhaps does not understand what cross-community voting is. It means a majority of unionist and nationalists; it does not mean all of the House. The Good Friday Agreement includes the option of weighted majority voting, which the House has never considered. Come back to me when your vote counts for less than everyone else's, Mr Brett.”
“It becomes an empty town. Does the Member agree that we threaten community life by taking people away, because services then come away?”
“I am not standing up to talk about the wonderful Strangford and my Ards peninsula. The Member talked about services being taken away. Quite a lot of Members here live in rural areas, and we know the impact of there not being a local community: it means losing the school and the post office, the banks disappearing and the local shops going down to the size of a corner store. That drives tourism away. If there is no community, we do away with tourism as well, and we may as well have those bushes blowing past.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I agree with what he says. We have seen rural local schools come under threat because there are not enough children in the area to keep them viable. Does the Member agree that it would be prudent for our councils to consider, as part of their local development plans, limiting the number of short-term lets and Airbnb rentals, for instance, so that families can live in the area?”
“Minister, thank you so much for giving way. I normally do not interrupt a Minister when they are speaking. Will you clarify whether that means that you will have to hold a register of all parents who apply for a baby loss certificate?”
“We are almost there, and we can have this done within this financial year, never mind within the mandate. All that I would say, as someone who is so grateful that this is coming forward, is this: thank you so much, Minister, and thank you to your Department. I thank the Committee for the work that it has done and for listening to grieving parents. We are doing something special here. I do not think that there is a row about that. It is something outstanding that shows that the Assembly has a heart and compassion for its neighbours, friends and families. I thank you for that.”
“Minister, I honestly believe that, through the regulations, you and your Department will bring forward what bereaved parents want and need. Today, all that I ask is that people think about this craic of charging people. You either have it in the Bill, or you do not. There is no halfway house here, because the halfway house will cost a lot of money and will require you to get data protection information from grieving parents at time when they just want a certificate for their dead child. <BR /> <BR />We should think about getting this passed as quickly as possible. I have every belief that the officials are almost there. I know that the consultation piece is over. There has been a lot of input into it. I was one of those who responded to the consultation. I am grateful, as a grieving parent, to have been able to do that.”
“That baby may no longer be here, but there is a certificate that people can apply for and have. I fully believe that, in the early days of the certificate being available, there will be an influx of people of all ages and genders applying for it, because, for years in Northern Ireland, we have not had the opportunity to do so. This is the right thing to do. It is right that we have not put a time limit on it, as appears in other places. It is kinder. <BR /> <BR />There is also an unknown element to this regarding how the certificates will eventually be produced. It may well be something that you can apply for and print or choose to print yourself, or you may wish to have a formal printing process — a bit like it is for a death certificate — where you are given a certificate. There are lots of options still to come forward.”
“Thank you, Mr Gaston. I am sorry, but I am one of those grieving parents, and my last loss involved a medical abortion that was very difficult for me. I find the terminology offensive and callous. It lacks understanding. It also lacks evidence of conversations with women who have been through any of this. None of us want to see that wording in the Bill. What we have in clause 11 is enough; we do not need amendment No 5. We do not need to retraumatise and harm people just because they lost a child before 24 weeks of pregnancy. <BR /> <BR />It has been difficult today. I believe that we in the House, irrespective of our positions on what are technical points of law, are in agreement. We need to have baby loss certificates. We need to provide people with a piece of paper that finally confirms that they were pregnant and had a baby.”
“The words "a termination of pregnancy" will be in the Bill and in the Act, and I ask the House to not agree to that. With clause 11, we have the opportunity to cover all instances and reasons, and we do not need to go into those reasons.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution, but I am a legislator the same as him, and I do not read his amendments in the way that, he thinks, he has written them. Amendment No 5 states:”
“I beg the House to please leave the regulations as flexible as possible and not to use emotive language in the Bill that will mean that when a woman, a man, a grandparent or whoever goes to apply for a baby loss certificate, they will have to tick a box to indicate whether they want to say how they lost their baby. It is a baby loss certificate, not a medical procedure certificate. I ask the House to please just be kind and keep going with what we intend the Bill to do. Let the regulations deal with that. Let bereaved parents deal with that. Let the Minister of Finance and his officials deal with it in a flexible way that will allow all those who wish to apply for a baby loss certificate to do so without having to specify.”
“It was harmful for my mental health, and I know that it has been harmful for a lot of other women's mental health. <BR /> <BR />Members have talked kindly today about the issue. Ms Forsythe, your speech was very moving for me. It recognised that, as soon as you get pregnant, you have thoughts, wishes and dreams for the baby who will come along. If your body then expels it and you do not know why and somebody calls that "an abortion", you think, "Do they think that I got rid of my child — the one that I wanted?". That is difficult.”
“I thank the Member for that. It leads me nicely to amendment No 5. I am sorry, folks, but I cannot support amendment No 5. I say it honestly from my heart: please do not do this. I have sat in more than enough rooms as a bereavement counsellor and even when I was being counselled myself with women who have had to struggle with the term "abortion" being used in respect of their miscarriage. While I absolutely, 100%, respect a woman's right to choose, I also absolutely respect a woman's right to grieve. For some women, having the words "termination" or "abortion" associated with their loss is devastating. I remember seeing the words "spontaneous abortion" at a time when I could not understand why my body had not carried children.”
“Let us be careful, and let us be as flexible and open as possible to the opportunity to provide a baby loss certificate, which is something so special for so many people. Let us not make it too convoluted and difficult.”
“<BR /> <BR />With regard to amendment No 4, I get it — I absolutely get it — but putting amendment Nos 4 and 5 into the Bill is a waste of time. Regulations that are already being talked about are coming forward, and it is not for the House to tell a grieving parent what should or should not be on a baby loss certificate. It is for grieving parents to decide that. They should be part of the development of the regulations and should decide what goes into the Bill. <BR /> <BR />As I said earlier, not every parent — I include myself — knows the gender of their child or has been able to give that child a name. Even the date on which the child was lost might be a convoluted matter.”
“To be fair to everyone, we have to just say either that they pay or they do not, and that will be up to the House. My preferred option is this: if we are going to provide free services to people whose loss happened after 24 weeks of pregnancy, we should do nothing different for people whose babies pass away before 24 weeks. <BR /> <BR />Perhaps the Minister could come back to us on the matter of the register. If people can get some certificates for free but have to pay for the rest, how will that be managed and worked on? For example, I started life as Kellie McGrattan. I got married and became Kellie Armstrong. I did not have a youngster when I was McGrattan, but I could have had one. How would we know who the father is? Are we going to ask for a lot of details? We are starting to get into a convolution here that does not need to happen.”
“I appreciate that, in a perfect world, just a mother and a father would be involved, but what happens if they become estranged and a new partner comes into the relationship who adopts the other family members and wants a copy? Grandparents, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles and many others might look for that. If we are to legislate on an equal footing, we have to consider this: anybody who loses a child over 24 weeks of pregnancy does not have to pay for funerals because we reimburse them for that, but we will be charging people who lose a child before 24 weeks of pregnancy. That is part of the problem that we are getting into as we debate the harm that can be caused. There is no difference in the grief, but we are making a difference financially.”
“If we are going to say that we will give so many certificates free and the rest will have to be paid for, there must be a list — a tally kept against that child's name or record — of who has applied and how many times people have applied for a certificate, and that will incur costs. That is not appropriate. We need to decide today whether we will charge or not. The ability to charge is in the legislation as the Minister has it, but, to be honest, as I said in reference to the child funeral fund, the Assembly has already decided to provide funding so that a parent does not have to pay for the funeral of a child under the age of 18, so why are we asking parents who have lost a child at under 24 weeks of pregnancy to pay for a baby loss certificate?”
“To be fair to the Minister and his Department, they have done an awful lot of work in the background, and they are almost there. It would not be such a stretch for them. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 2 was tabled in the name of my colleague Eóin Tennyson. Mr Frew made an important point, and I will perhaps comment on it now. We are talking about legislation. It is something that, when written down, is law. We are talking about whether to charge people for certificates. Here is something: we either charge for the certificates, or we do not. There is no in-between. I say that in reference to amendment No 3, tabled by the DUP. Who would hold a register of who has applied for baby loss certificates? I do not understand how that works. We either charge for everything, or we do not charge for it.”
“It is his right to have his own considerations, but I came to the House to represent everyone, and I believe in the code of conduct for MLAs, which means that we have to consider equality in all that we do. Therefore, I will not support him. He may oppose clause 8, but I do not think that the majority of the House do. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 1 requires the legislation to be laid within a timescale. That is relevant, because, far too often in the House, we have the situation where we legislate, and, as I know from my experience on the Committee for Communities, it takes years for regulations to come forward. To be honest, we are giving a lot of hope to people outside the Chamber, and they will expect to see something.”
“Having been a bereavement counsellor and involved in supporting hundreds of parents who have lost children and, of course, given the fact that I have suffered losses, which I have not hidden, I know that it can be quite difficult. To anybody in the House, those listening or any staff in the Building who have been through the same situation as me, I am very sorry for your loss, and I hope that the Bill goes a long way in helping you grieve for your child, because the Government will recognise your child, albeit they may have survived for only a short time. <BR /> <BR />I will go straight to the clauses to which amendments have been tabled. Mr Gaston, of course, tabled his opposition to clause 8 stand part.”
“I thank everyone who contributed to the discussion, which has been extremely difficult for me. The fact that everyone spoke with care and compassion has shown how much we respect those grieving parents out there. I thank all colleagues for that. I also thank the Minister for introducing the Bill. As others, such as Mr Frew, said, it is the first piece of legislation that will allow people who have lost children during pregnancy, under 24 weeks, to have, at last, something concrete in their hand that they can hold that recognises that they had a child. Thank you for that. <BR /> <BR />I also thank the Committee, because it could not have been easy to listen to the stories of those grieving parents.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I appreciate that we are debating legislation, so we have more time. With regard to charging bereaved parents, the House has been kind. The child funeral fund, to which anyone who loses a child after 24 weeks of pregnancy can apply — it is not means-tested — provides money for the family to cover the cost of the funeral. However, if we charge for the baby loss certificates, we are saying to parents of children under 24 weeks that they have to pay; they are different. If we are talking about equality and about making legislation that is fair and equitable, we should not charge those parents just because they lost a child a few weeks earlier. When we think about families and their grief, we should see all grief as equal.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. This is one part of the legislation that I am passionate about. We need to be flexible because some of us who have lost a baby will not have known their sex because they were born too soon. Having that flexibility, recognising the importance of that for parents and not forcing them to leave something blank is key.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. This is an important discussion today about legislation that will have an impact on many people. We should have said — perhaps the Member will agree — that there is a triggering and upsetting use of language. As a former bereavement counsellor, I know that using the word "abortion" to someone who has miscarried, when it is on their medical records as a spontaneous abortion, is incredibly callous and cruel. Using such language in the Bill, when it already covers all forms of loss, is more about political point-scoring and harming women than it is about making good legislation.”
“Minister, I thank you for your answer. When I look to the South of Ireland, I see that people there can be fined up to €1,000 for speeding if they do not pay a fixed penalty within a certain time limit. That makes the fines here pale into insignificance. Our penalties for parking badly cost more than a speeding fine. Minister, will you commit to looking at the South of Ireland's speeding fine model to see whether it can be replicated here? The more that we can do to put people off and stop them speeding, the safer our roads will be.”
“Too many people are getting into debt or are sitting cold in their home because this place is not delivering. It is time to get to action, folks. I do not want any pensioner to die in a cold home on our watch.”
“We have over 50% of our pensioners living in cold homes. What are we doing, folks? Are we just here for a game? Today in Northern Ireland, people will go without heat in their houses. Sadly, the research confirms that people are not turning on their heat. They are not eating in order to have enough money to pay for oil heating. Where is our strategy to get rid of oil heating? For goodness' sake, we are so far behind the rest of the Western World on our heating programmes here that it is unbelievable. <BR /> <BR />Rising energy costs are harming people here today. That is not mentioned in the Programme for Government, and it is time that it were. If we do not have a fuel poverty strategy in place to influence the future three-year Budget, it will be a shame on the House and a shame on the Minister for Communities.”
“While others are worried about everything else, they are failing to deliver for people who live in cold homes in Northern Ireland today. <BR /> <BR />The research that was announced this morning confirmed that our Government, and the Minister for Communities in particular, are failing to deliver for the people who are living here by allowing them to continue to live in cold homes in the social housing and private rented sectors. The House has agreed legislation stating that energy efficiency standards will be introduced. Where are they? They have not seen the light of day. What is the hold-up with them? We have heard waffle after waffle about when the fuel poverty strategy might come forward. It is November. We still do not have a fuel poverty strategy, and we have 27% of households here living in cold homes.”
“I will bring the House back to something that is relevant to Northern Ireland and that affects so many of our constituents. This morning, National Energy Action Northern Ireland revealed research that confirmed that 27% of households in Northern Ireland are living in fuel poverty. That is 27% of our neighbours, friends and family who are living in fuel poverty. Now, you would think that we would have a plan for that, but our fuel poverty strategy still sits in draft form in the Department for Communities and has not seen the light of day. What is worse about it, and all should pay attention to this, is the fact that over 50% of our pensioners and over 60% of our people with disabilities live in fuel poverty. It is November. It is getting colder.”
“I thank the Member very much for giving way. I think that the Member is trying to misrepresent the motion that has been laid before you today. We need homes for the future that will help people living in Northern Ireland, not in fantasy land. We dumped £94 million of wind renewable energy in quarter 1 and quarter 2. Why was that not pumped into the homes of people who are living in the most vulnerable conditions?”
“Thank you very much, Minister, for giving way. We should build social homes to the highest possible standards, because people deserve nothing less than the best. Why not build houses to the higher standards now, however, rather than spend more public money in five or 10 years' time to bring them up to those standards then? The current building regulations are of the past. They do not look forward. Why not design houses that will meet the required standards and pass the plans on to the Minister for Infrastructure or the Minister of Finance for one of them to make sure that future building regulations are at the standard that we want for everyone in Northern Ireland?”
“I thank the Minister very much for giving way. Minister, how many houses have been started this year when you have the budget? The answer is one. Can we just move something forward? If 2,000 houses were built to Passivhaus standards or to a level close to those, it would save tenants a clean fortune. People would have more money in their pocket to spend in the local economy. We need to be innovative and future-proof homes, and we need to build them to a better standard, or are we saying that people who live in social homes are worth less than the people who can afford a Four Winds home that costs £80 a month to heat and light?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. It is because our houses are not ready to receive electricity. We poured £94 million worth of renewable energy away in quarter 1 and quarter 2 of this year. We did not use wind energy. We can do this.”