Kellie Armstrong
Strangford · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Fisheries, Aquaculture and Water Environment Bill. It is timely and important. Miss McIlveen, a fellow MLA for the Strangford constituency, has just spoken.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill reflects the realities of the post-Brexit landscape by aligning protections here with those in other UK jurisdictions and the UK Fisheries Act. That consistency is important for standards, enforcement and international confidence in our products.”
“Last year, I met the Department and we discussed that. The opportunities for seaweed farming in Strangford lough are wonderful, and the opportunities from seaweed that Queen's University has identified are incredible. We are lucky to have those opportunities on our doorstep, as long as there is licensing and it is properly looked after.”
“Moving beyond managing individual fisheries, the Bill recognises the interconnected nature of our rivers, loughs and seas — an approach that is very much in line with Alliance's commitment to evidence-based environmental policy. The inclusion of a national benefit objective is also significant.”
“A while ago, we saw that commercial bottom trawling had all but decimated the horse mussel population in Strangford lough. It has since been changed to a special area of conservation. That limits a lot of activity in the lough, which is not a bad thing considering that horse mussels are coming back.”
“They allow for timely action on lower-level offences without over-burdening the courts while still acting as a meaningful deterrent. If only everybody were acting properly, we would not need to have those deterrents, but we are where we are, and the Bill hopes to improve upon that.”
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“I thank the Member for giving way. I have not made this up. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has also called for the active promotion of a fully integrated education system and careful monitoring of shared education provision to ensure social integration. Recommendations were made to the UK Government in 2002, 2008 and 2016 to facilitate compliance with children's educational rights under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC, which came into force in the UK in 1992. The UN Committee asked for the active and proactive promotion of a fully integrated education system. I have not made that up. I am reacting to international reports and to other reports that have come forward in Northern Ireland.”
“It is not in the scope of the Bill to talk about any other sector. That has been explained to me legally. The name of the Bill is "Integrated Education Bill".”
“For clarity, I draw to the Member's attention the fact that page 1 of the Bill says:”
“I will explain that. There is a presumption in Northern Ireland that, if a person is brought up as a Catholic, that person must be a Catholic and want to go to a maintained school. There is a presumption that, if a person has grown up in the Protestant faith, that person is a Protestant. In fact, there are people such as me who do not want to be designated as anything. The religious demographics that are recorded assume that I am something that I do not want to be assumed to be. Religious demographics are a blunt tool to use. They are not as nuanced as the modern Northern Ireland is.”
“I am on record as saying in the House that the only primary school that should be protected is the one on Rathlin.”
“Thank you very much. It might come as a massive surprise to all that I agree with Mr Weir. No school should try to save itself by relabelling as a different one. That is why we have the updated definitions of integrated education and integrated schools that came forward yesterday. However, as you know, it is not as simple as asking to become integrated: they have to go through a process that should winnow out those who are doing it to save themselves. <BR /> <BR />Later today, in the debate on a different group of amendments, we will talk about clause 7 and the introduction of new schools. If a community wants to retain a primary school, there needs to be a wider conversation in that community about what type of primary school it should be. I agree with you completely. We have a lot of small schools.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The words "encourage and facilitate" have, for many years, been in a duty for integrated and Irish-medium education school, yet we still have under 10% of the school population attending integrated education. How has that given integrated education a foot up or in any way changed the situation?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. To clarify, this is my private Member's Bill. Thanks.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Legal advice provided to the Committee is privileged, and I did not have access to it.”
“I am not exactly sure what Mr Newton is getting at. I am not a member of the Committee, so would not have got the information from the Committee's consultation. I consulted with an extraordinary number of people and gave evidence to the Committee. The issue was not raised then.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I am not a member of the Education Committee.”
“Will the Member clarify why it is a bad Bill, given that our Bill Office provided the amendments and legal advice to me?”
“<BR /> <BR />I cannot support the Minister's amendment No 2, because it removes "socio-economic deprivation" and "different abilities" from the definition. I ask that you support my amendment No 5. I am happy to support Mr McCrossan's amendment No 6. I cannot support the Minister's amendment No 7, which takes out the new definition of an integrated school. I support amendment No 9. I will now sit down and let the Minister wind up.”
“Ms Bailey confirmed that, 40 years after the integrated education sector started up, people are still delaying. <BR /> <BR />I would say this to all of you today: we are only on group 1, and it will be a long night, and this will, possibly, run quite long into tomorrow, but just to confirm, I am more than happy to support the Minister's amendment No 24. I have no issue with the Department's new clause 6. It places a duty on the Department, and I am very grateful for that. I agree with the Minister's amendment Nos 70 and 71 on the definition of "education bodies" in the Bill, which, hopefully, will become an Act. Those will certainly help to allay a lot the fears of CCMS or other education bodies which do not want to support, or feel that it is not within their remit to support, integrated education.”
“No, I am not, and that is why I am not dealing with it in the Bill. There are other issues that Mr Carroll mentioned that I have not spoken to him about. I will speak to him after this section, if that is OK, Mr Deputy Speaker.”
“She highlighted that opponents claim that the Bill should not go forward for fear of challenge. To be honest, how do we know those challenges will happen until they do? Plenty of challenges are taken against different aspects of education, and I am very grateful to her — her experience — for confirming that, 40 years after the integrated education sector started —”
“I do not know, Mr Allister. I would say that special educational needs would be one area where children need to be provided with places. I would say that the fact that children need to be educated in Northern Ireland means that they are provided with a school place. I am asking that, for integrated education, there will be an assessment of need, that that demand will be considered through a strategy and action plan and that biennial reporting will come forward for that. <BR /> <BR />Gerry Carroll talked about doing away with an outdated practice. I know that we do not agree on every aspect of the Bill, but I am very grateful to him for engaging with that, because I am sure that it took up quite a lot of his time. I thank him very much. <BR /> <BR />Clare Bailey, again, highlighted the number of reviews that have not gone anywhere.”
“He talked about the timing of the Bill, and just to confirm again, I brought this forward in 2016 and that is lodged in the Speaker's Office.”
“I actually thought that Mr Weir, in a former role in the House, had brought those people in to do the independent review of education. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister said that he understands the intention behind the Bill, and I am very grateful for that, because it is about integrated education. He talked about how many people are disappointed when they cannot get into a grammar school. Well, I can say the same about integrated education. A significant number of parents across Northern Ireland cannot get their children into integrated schools. The Good Relations Indicators report confirms that, in 2018-19, one in five children could not get a post-primary place in an integrated school in Northern Ireland. Their first preferences were not met.”
“He talked generally about education and complained about the Bill's timing. Well, that was outside my scope. I started it in 2016. I had to stop it for a time. As you will all understand, there were three years when I could not progress it, and, as soon as we came back, I brought it back again. There has been an extraordinary amount of work. The Committee spent many months on it. I cannot see how I could have done this any quicker. This Bill is one of the highest up on the list of private Member's Bills brought to the House in the current mandate. <BR /> <BR />I believe that Mr Weir is not right. Parents' choices are not being met. He was critical of the authors of the independent review of integrated education.”
“I cannot write up the strategic direction, and that would be pre-empting what the independent review of education will do. NDNA is an Executive-led approach. I do not believe that the Bill pre-empts the report, because that panel can bring forward recommendations for new legislation that may change any legislation that is on the books.”
“I confirmed to him that amendment No 69 to clause 12, leaving out subsection (3), which is the presumption that all new schools will be integrated schools, is a Committee amendment of which I am completely in support. <BR /> <BR />He asked whether the Bill addresses the strategic direction for education. As much as I would love my Bill to do that, because I believe that, if we were to have a single education system, it should be of schools in which all children can attend together under one roof, I can deal only with the independent review of integrated education and the Integrated Education Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Stalford said that the Bill raised the status of one sector over others. He said that we needed a Bengoa-style review of education. I absolutely agree with you, Mr Stalford. Apologies. I should have gone through the Chair. We do need a Bengoa-style review. Is the independent review of education deal undertaking that Bengoa-style review? I wish that it did, and I hope that it does, but we have yet to see the outcome from it. We know that the panel has been talking to a lot of people. Mr Stalford also said that he supported children being educated together. <BR /> <BR />Mr Weir talked about the clauses as drafted, without referring to the amendments.”
“I do not deal with all sectors in the Bill. I am dealing with the integrated education sector only. I do not think that if we have a system as we have now, in which parental preference is provided, we should say, "No, you can't go to the school sector of your choice, because there's a different type of sector down the road that has places". If we are going to allow parental preference, we have to allow parents to exercise that preference. That is why clause 5 is not considering empty desks. <BR /> <BR />In my discussions with the SDLP, it had concerns about the religious demographics of an area. I said to Daniel that I would say publicly in the Chamber that, if it will help, I am quite happy to work with him to look at the religious demographics piece at Further Consideration Stage.”
“In my constituency, there are schools in all the different sectors, and, where there are empty school desks and an integrated education school is oversubscribed, parents are encouraged to fill the other sectors' places first. Many parents cannot access an integrated school place because there are simply not any, as a result of another school down the road having empty places. Although we have four sectors, children who are being turned away from the integrated education sector are therefore being asked to go into a sector that their parents do not want them to be in. That is not fair.”
“She also hopes that the Bill will do so. <BR /> <BR />Robbie Butler recognised that integrated education is one of the four education sectors. He said that educating children is the priority of education. Robbie asked about clause 5 not considering empty desks. Clause 5 mentions:”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I therefore say to you that perhaps Members would like to go and speak to the 200 to 250 parents who have had children turned away from getting an integrated place in my constituency. <BR /> <BR />Dolores Kelly spoke about the number of independent reviews that sit on shelves. She confirmed that the SDLP is in support of the Bill. She said that controlled and maintained schools are not the cause of sectarianism. I agree. Our sectors take children in and try to teach them to the best of their ability. They are not in the game of creating sectarianism. <BR /> <BR />She did say, however, that integrated education has been at a disadvantage. I am not going to go into the funding formula that she mentioned, because I am trying to move things forward for integrated education.”
“We both represent the Strangford constituency. Perhaps you would like to speak to the 200 to 250 parents of pupils —”
“Are we harming other sectors by having parental preference and by enabling people to choose the type of school that their child can go to? I find that difficult. Mr Harvey seems to wish that no process to enable integrated education should be progressed until after the independent review of education. That is somewhat short-sighted.”
“Thank you. The Bill is put through the Speaker's legal team to ensure that it is appropriate before it comes to the House. It has been through a process. I followed completely the Bill Office's process. I will say this to Mr Newton: just because something is uncommon does not mean that it should not be done. Yes, I am pushing the boundaries of a PMB and it is complex legislation, but, hey, why not? The Bill, with some of the amendments that have been tabled, will make for good legislation that will support integrated education and integrated schools. <BR /> <BR />Mr Harvey admitted that the concept of integrated education is not in dispute, but he said that integrated education "harms other sectors". Really?”
“They are professional people who are provided by the Bill Office to sponsors of private Members' Bills that are going through the Assembly process. The draftsperson whom I had was extremely professional. The criticism in whatever the legal advice was provided by the Committee or by the Minister you will need to take up with the Bill Office.”
“I did not pre-empt the Assembly collapsing for three years and needing 'New Decade, New Approach'. The process has been going on for years. I am sorry that you think that I am undermining 'New Decade, New Approach', but, to be honest, I will not leave integrated education where it is and wait until we find out what that report might say. Believe me, I told the panel that I would love it to be as innovative as possible. <BR /> <BR />Mr Newton quoted from the legal advice that was provided to the Committee. I do not have access to that legal advice, as it is privileged, so I have not seen that legal advice. I have to distance myself from the suggestion that the drafter was not correct somehow. The draftsperson was provided by the Bill Office from the independent panel of draftspeople.”
“When I was with CSSC, it had display boards in its offices that confirm its integrated education. We have to remember that a significant number of integrated schools are controlled integrated schools. Many schools promote diversity, but that is not part of the Bill. I talk about integrated education in the Bill; I cannot talk about any other sector in my Bill, because that is outside its scope. <BR /> <BR />Mr Newton said that the integrated education sector does a good job. Thank you for that, because it does so in extraordinary circumstances. Alliance put the independent review of education into 'New Decade, New Approach'. You said that the Bill should not progress because that review is happening. I do not agree with you. I started the process even before I was elected in 2016, but I started the formal process in 2016.”
“However, in the meantime — there is some time to go before that independent review of education even comes forward with its report — there are children in the integrated education sector who are unable to secure a first preference place in a post-primary school. Parents are trying to set up mid Down integrated college because Lagan College is full to bursting. They are bringing schools together so that, hopefully, there will be more places to provide integrated options for children in that area. The only thing that I am trying to do with the Bill is to enable integrated education. <BR /> <BR />Mr Newton asked why other sectors were not asked how they promote diversity. Ask them. I am sorry: CCMS, CSSC, NICIE and Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta (CnaG) all talk about diversity.”
“When Mr Newton stood up, I was sad to hear him say that he would be accused of promoting "educational apartheid". That is not fair. To be honest, we are all allowed to support the sectors and schools that we prefer. It happens to be that integrated education is the one that I like, and I have a good shine for CCMS schools because of the schooling that I went through. However, unfortunately, that is not something that I have control over, Mr Newton. <BR /> <BR />Mr Newton said that a private Member's Bill would not change the system. No, it is not; the independent review of education will change the system, I hope.”
“I said to those I spoke to that I would table amendments and would share them in advance of the deadline, and I did that. Mr McCrossan asked for the clarification that he needed on clauses 1(1)(b) and 1(1)(c). I have dealt with that for him with my amendment on pupils of different socio-economic backgrounds and abilities. My consultation supported widening the definition. Some 88% of the responses to the consultation completed by the Education Committee supported the widening of the definition to include what is in my paragraphs (b) and (c).”
“Mr McCrossan confirmed that the Bill does not undo parental choice for anyone who chooses one of the four sectors that we have in Northern Ireland: I agree with him. He also said that integrated education is not a silver bullet but is part of the way forward. He talked about the increases in the number of children in integrated education and of those taking part in shared education. All that is to be welcomed. To those who say that I am trying to destroy or take away from any other sectors, I ask this: who, do you think, takes part in shared education? Shared education is shared education between maintained, controlled, integrated and Irish-medium schools. I thank the SDLP for being supportive. I listened to its concerns, and I tabled amendments.”
“Thank you. I confirm again that I provided the Committee with a copy of the letter from the Speaker's Office that confirmed that no further consultation was required. Anybody who wants to deal with that is certainly welcome to take it through to the Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I was a little disappointed that some of the Members who commented had already decided what I planned to do. At Consideration Stage, instead of paying attention to the amendments, they kept going back to the original Bill. We have amendments in front of us, and we should all speak to them. <BR /> <BR />Daniel McCrossan confirmed that he supports integrated education, and he talked about the SDLP supporting it. However, some parents do not have the choice of integrated education for their children.”
“Schools are taking forward a fantastic wealth of opportunities for our young people so that they can understand who they and who others are. Schools share facilities and take part in the extended school regime. Mrs Dodds was correct, as was Mr Sheehan, that the Bill will not end segregation. However, she spoke about the Bill in generalities and did not really speak about the amendments. She challenged the Speaker, who confirmed that the consultation that I completed as part of the Bill was there to be used.”
“It will not fix Northern Ireland or be the solution to ongoing peace, but it is one of the tools that we can use to have a shared society. Society is different now, and he said that he welcomes the inclusion of the different socio-economic backgrounds and abilities: I thank him for that. He was critical of integrated education. To be honest, if we cannot take criticism, what can we do? Through clause 10(2)(i), I aim for the inspection regime to measure how inclusive integrated education is. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Dodds complained that the Bill is about integrated education: I make no apologies for that. It is what it says on the tin. It is the Integrated Education Bill. She also said that all schools are diverse. I do not have a fight with her on that.”
“Mr Chris Lyttle discussed the Committee amendments. Who am I to argue against the Examiner of Statutory Rules? I do not have a problem with any of the Committee amendments that have been tabled. I know that Mrs Dodds complained about the Committee process. That is not something that I am in control of; I cannot change that process. Again, if there is an issue with it, it needs to be taken up with other people in the House. I cannot help with that matter. <BR /> <BR />Mr Sheehan confirmed that there is still much to do. He talked about continued segregation and how 'New Decade, New Approach' discussed bringing forward a single education system. He said that he wants a new society that is rooted in peace. I agree with him that integrated education is not a panacea.”
“<BR /> <BR />The definition of integrated schools is deliberately limited to stop the ongoing misuse of the term "integrated schools". Later in the Bill, I have brought forward a provision so that the ETI can inspect the ethos of a school, because, to be quite frank, myself and the movement are sick, sore and tired of hearing politicians ask, "Is that school really integrated?". We are asking for an inspection and are prepared to do the extra work. Those schools are prepared to be measured: they already go through different aspects of work through NICIE to prove their integration status. We are saying, "Yeah, we're happy enough to be measured on that".”
“The New Decade, New Approach agreement falls at the next election, so there is no guarantee that the review will be taken forward. I wish it was being taken forward: I am bringing forward this integrated education legislation because, as Ms Bailey said, 40 years have gone past with no significant improvements on how we help integrated education in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The Minister has tabled another amendment to a later part of the Bill that I will support. That amendment, I think, creates a planning authority for integrated education, which is something that we absolutely need. We must remember that integrated education does not have a planning authority. I can see the officials who are in the Chamber shaking their heads; unfortunately, they do not get to speak in the debate.”
“I have already dealt with the Minister: there is an amendment that I cannot deal with and one — amendment No 24 — that I can go forward with. The Minister seems to think that I have some sort of issue with the independent review of education. As others have mentioned, the Alliance Party was at the forefront of ensuring that it was put into New Decade, New Approach. However, the Minister confirmed that that examination will go on for 18 months, which runs into the next mandate. I do not know who has the crystal ball, but I do not know whether I can predict what a Minister will do in the next mandate. As others have said, plenty of reviews have happened over the years, and the review of education could sit on a shelf for a further year, two years or three years: I do not know.”
“I can absolutely support her amendment No 24 as it will strengthen the requirement for the Department to take account of its duty under article 64(1) of the Education Reform (Northern Ireland) Order 1989. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate the thinking behind Mr McCrossan's amendment No 9. Who would not support learning about human rights? That already happens in integrated schools as part of their holistic approach to respecting all. I am happy to support the amendment. It is strange that he removed a requirement to be efficient with resources, but I met with him and spoke about that and am happy to accept the amendment. <BR /> <BR />I now move to some of the matters that were mentioned from the Floor during the debate.”
“Thank you. Every single integrated school that I have met and discussed this with can meet the definition that I have put forward. They all have children who qualify for free school meals and children who do not, and they all have children with different abilities, whether academic or vocational, and they all have children with special education needs. So I am confident that the definition will not cause any problems whatsoever for any integrated school now or in the future. Children who are educated together should be educated to the best of their ability and not because of their religious background. <BR /> <BR />I am also content to support Daniel McCrossan's amendment No 6, as it adds to the definition that I have put forward. As I said, I cannot support the Minister's amendments to the definition.”
“I am absolutely delighted, Minister, that you have moved to include all faiths and none in your definition. It is, however, restrictive and not fully reflective of the make-up of children attending an integrated school. We should celebrate all aspects of our children. Respecting and learning about religion and cultural background are important and profound, but it should not stop there. That is why I ask the House to support my amendment, which includes different socio-economic backgrounds and different abilities.”
“It provides an educational setting where children of different abilities, from different economic backgrounds, of various faiths — no matter what that faith is — and of no faith are in class learning about each other and being celebrated for who they are every day. Some claim — this may answer some of Mr McCrossan's issues — that there are children from various socio-economic backgrounds and with different abilities in all schools. I am sure that there are, but I am widening the definition of integrated education beyond simply religious background to reflect the reality of the place that we live in today and the wealth of diversity celebrated in integrated schools. <BR /> <BR />I will not support the Minister's amendment to the definition.”
“I mentioned removing the Christian base from schools because, in Northern Ireland, the legislation is that all schools must have a Christian base. That is just the way it is. I went to a maintained school. I have a strong Catholic faith that, to be honest, I got from the heavy number of masses that I regularly attended through that school, and I enjoyed it. <BR /> <BR />The updated definition includes children of all faiths and none. It continues to require reasonable numbers of both main religious traditions and cultures, namely Protestants and Catholics. The introduced definition also adds "different socio-economic backgrounds" and "different abilities" to reflect how integrated education has developed into more than just educating children from Protestant and Catholic backgrounds.”
“The Committee's consultation confirmed the need to widen the definition. My Bill does not try to remove the Christian-based approach to education or make integrated education secular in any way. That will upset people — for instance, the humanist society — but that is outside the scope of the Bill, which I want to be only about integrated education.”