Kellie Armstrong
Strangford · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Fisheries, Aquaculture and Water Environment Bill. It is timely and important. Miss McIlveen, a fellow MLA for the Strangford constituency, has just spoken.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill reflects the realities of the post-Brexit landscape by aligning protections here with those in other UK jurisdictions and the UK Fisheries Act. That consistency is important for standards, enforcement and international confidence in our products.”
“Last year, I met the Department and we discussed that. The opportunities for seaweed farming in Strangford lough are wonderful, and the opportunities from seaweed that Queen's University has identified are incredible. We are lucky to have those opportunities on our doorstep, as long as there is licensing and it is properly looked after.”
“Moving beyond managing individual fisheries, the Bill recognises the interconnected nature of our rivers, loughs and seas — an approach that is very much in line with Alliance's commitment to evidence-based environmental policy. The inclusion of a national benefit objective is also significant.”
“A while ago, we saw that commercial bottom trawling had all but decimated the horse mussel population in Strangford lough. It has since been changed to a special area of conservation. That limits a lot of activity in the lough, which is not a bad thing considering that horse mussels are coming back.”
“They allow for timely action on lower-level offences without over-burdening the courts while still acting as a meaningful deterrent. If only everybody were acting properly, we would not need to have those deterrents, but we are where we are, and the Bill hopes to improve upon that.”
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“I begin by paying tribute to the Minister and her team and to all our councillors who kept communities going through the pandemic. The swift action of councils, helped by the money that the Minister managed to get out to them, provided sustenance, support and a safe space for people as we tried to make our way through the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />As others have said, we need to support our councils. The Alliance Party supported the progress of the Bill by way of accelerated passage because we recognised from our colleagues, whether from our party or from others, the necessity of hybrid meetings. We have them in the Assembly: sometimes they work, and sometimes they do not, but, most of the time, they make provision for people who are unable to come to the Chamber or they allow for social distancing so that we can attend the Chamber safely.”
“We can do it here in the House, so we should do it for our councils <BR /> <BR />I am glad that clause 2 will be removed. I ask the Minister this, however: if clause 2 is removed, what does that mean for hybrid working? Our councils need hybrid working, and that is why accelerated passage was requested. There are concerns with other parts of the Bill. Thank you for coming to the Committee on Thursday, Minister. There is a lot in the Bill to be discussed. It is a detailed Bill. Although it is proceeding by way of accelerated passage, there needs to be time to talk about it. I ask the Minister to clarify what happens, when clause 2 is removed, to hybrid meetings for our councillors across Northern Ireland, who have been doing sterling work throughout COVID.”
“Thank you, Minister, for your swift reaction today. To be clear, while the accelerated passage process is being brought to the House today, that does not mean that we do not scrutinise and review the legislation. As other Members have said, we got the legislation very late, and, in looking at the detail, we could see that it was not satisfactory. We know, however, the impact that delaying any of the Bill will have on our councils. Again, as others have said, the councils have not been able to use their hybrid digital online meeting places since 7 May. While some councils have put some helpful considerations into place to allow them to continue to meet safely, in line with the COVID rules, we want something that is a lot more fixed and permanent.”
“Will the legislation be good enough to stop young people from getting drink from off-licences? Will it be good enough to protect our Police Service when it needs more investment because the number of pubs that are letting people out at 3.00 am is putting a strain on it? That is why I included the words "and effectiveness" in the amendments. That will mean that the Department does not have to measure just outputs. It will be about how effective the legislation is. Someone may turn round to me and say, "It is covered. It is already in there". No, it is not. Unless it is spelt out in the Bill, it will not be measured.”
“It is not about how many taprooms have applied for licences; it is about whether the licences are of any use and whether the legislation is good enough.”
“In finance terms, civil servants are quite often asked to consider the efficiency and the effectiveness of their work. I believe that the term "effectiveness" needs to be used here. When changes were coming through and comments were being made about taprooms and article 52E in particular, there was the impression that taprooms were going to take all the business away from pubs. It would be an awful situation. People would be drinking terribly high levels of concentrated alcohol, and it would be terrible altogether. However, no evidence had been collected; it was all hearsay. What I heard directly from those taprooms is that they are not applying for taproom licences. The article 52E will sit there and not be used, and that is why I am looking for the effectiveness of the legislation to be measured.”
“I agree. A list would help in considering the surrender principle, because then we could see if our rural pubs are disappearing. <BR /> <BR />I completely understand where Miss Woods is coming from with amendment No 15. We heard very clearly in Committee — and I have spoken to Hospitality Ulster and other pub owners — about how the Pub is The Hub model is key. That part of the industry wants to see the social value and that additional aspect of pubs grown. It is never a bad thing to have social value. Pubs can invest back into the community by having a post office, a small shop, or whatever it may be. I could tell you a story about my local pub getting me eggs when I was pregnant, but we will not go into that here. <BR /> <BR />The reason why I have brought forward the idea of effectiveness in amendment Nos 21 and 22 is very simple.”
“I absolutely agree. What annoyed me most was that, when I talked about this list, Hospitality Ulster was able to provide me with a list of the numbers, but the Department could not. I thought that that was a bit much. I ask the Minister to provide clarification on the first part of the postcode breakdown, because, if we are to have effective data collection, the data has to be usable. I do not think that DEA data is usable.”
“Imagine how many licences there are in the central Belfast DEA; just being told that you have 20 licences in one place does not break things down.”
“The list requirement has now been amended and, to be honest, watered down a little, but the reason that I asked for the list and that the Committee agreed to have the list was this: you could come to my Strangford constituency and look at a district electoral area (DEA). For example, in Portaferry DEA at the bottom of the Ards peninsula, there are pubs in Portaferry town, but there are also other licence holders that are outside that area. It gives me a list saying that, in that DEA, there are eight or maybe 10 pubs. It does not tell me where the cluster of those pubs is or how I, as a council, can plan ahead on entertainment licences. It does not tell me whether I, as a police officer, should send officers to one particular street or part of a town or a village. That is the part that really galls me.”
“Amendment No 12 gives a Minister an out. The Committee was very committed to ensuring that a minimum price per unit of alcohol would be brought forward within three years by the Health Minister, but, with amendment No 12, the Health Minister can choose to ignore that and would only have to come back and say that there is a reasonable excuse to do that. That is unfortunate. <BR /> <BR />As Mr O'Toole said, GDPR-compliant or not, amendment No 16 misses the point of what the Committee was looking for. I reiterate that, when I asked for a list of licence holders, I was told to go to the courts and get it myself. We were looking for that list in order to protect children and to help the police force and emergency services. It was not to cause difficulties for pub owners. Many pub licence holders are businesses, rather than named people.”
“To be honest, I would love to support everything that is in group 2, but I know that amendment Nos 14 and 15 are mutually exclusive. I will see how the voting goes on those. <BR /> <BR />I am a wee bit disappointed by the group 2 amendments, even though I will support them.”
“Minister, what preparations is your Department making for alternative or flexible working arrangements, including working remotely, post-COVID? What protections will be put in place for your staff to ensure that they do not suffer from living-at-work syndrome, where their mental health is hindered because of the amount of pressure they have from working additional hours?”
“As we all know, there are only nine days left for people to apply to the EUSS. You mentioned that you have provided support for those in prison or on probation to make an application under the EUSS. On the type of support, you mentioned translators and so on. Have you been able to use any of our local advice services for that? Is there anyone else left in your system over whom you have control who can apply but has yet to do so?”
“I thank the Minister for her commitment on the matter. The sexual abuse of young people in any format is abhorrent. I am concerned by what the Minister has just said about the justice Bill being held up. Does she have any deadline by which it needs to be presented, beyond which it will be killed off for this mandate?”
“I thank the Member for that. I certainly hope that that will be the case. Limiting our taprooms to possibly two days a week over a year with only six hours a day, which is 12 hours a week, does not, as I said at Consideration Stage, make it feasible for people to work there or for taprooms to cover the cost of fitting out a place where alcohol would be consumed. <BR /> <BR />Unfortunately for all in the Chamber, I will go against amendment No 5. I know that amendment No 9 is consequential to amendment No 5. I very much expect that I will be a lone voice in the House, but taking away the opportunity for a taproom to have the use of even an occasional licence brought forward by a partner pub, just goes beyond the pale and leaves them as the poor relation in the sector.”
“I have spoken to a number of taproom owners — or people who would like to be taproom owners — and they have said that not only are they unable to have additional days or hours but being banned or excluded from being able to access occasional licences brought forward even by a partner pub that they work with makes life extremely difficult for them. Indeed, later in group 2, I will talk about the review that I would like to see happen, because I have been told by local producers that it is very unlikely that anyone will apply for a taproom licence under article 52E because of the restrictions that are placed on them. <BR /> <BR />Someone here mentioned the poor relations. While our local producers have the opportunity to develop and extend our food and drink tourism market, unfortunately, the restrictions on them —”
“I thank the Minister and her team and all in the Bill Office for bringing us this far. As Mr Durkan said, we are very close to the end on this huge piece of legislation that has been many years not in the making but, certainly, in the awaiting. <BR /> <BR />As the Minister said, much of what has been proposed in the group 1 amendments is technical, and I thank her team for making them so. It brings forward the additional pieces that the Committee had wanted, and we were glad to work with her on that. <BR /> <BR />The only thing that I will say is that I will call against amendment No 5.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I wonder how this is cherry-picking when the Committee on Procedures can effect change only in the House and the motion is asking for simultaneous translation here. It does not concern any of the other parts of NDNA.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank the Committee on Procedures for tabling the motion. Alliance will, of course, support the motion and the review, as outlined in the amendment. Let us get on with delivery. As the leader of the Alliance Party said:”
“I will have access to subtitles, so, if you vote against this, you are voting against a member of the deaf community who sits in the House. Subtitles would be very helpful for me, no matter what language anyone is speaking. Not everyone who is deaf uses subtitles. A sign language Bill is a New Decade, New Approach commitment. It is one of the areas that should be taken forward, but, instead of being progressed, that vital legislation will not happen in this mandate, as has been said. <BR /> <BR />There are other areas of New Decade, New Approach on which we compromised. I am not a huge fan of what is in New Decade, New Approach on the petition of concern. If it came to the House, I would vote to amend it. I therefore absolutely respect the Ulster Unionist Party for tabling an amendment asking for a review.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do not think that it is exactly what it does. It depends on how many people are using the language as well, so there is an element of testing in there. To be honest, I am not scared of having a review. As government, it is prudent that we should do so. We learned that after the renewable heat incentive (RHI) inquiry. <BR /> <BR />To confirm, there are many areas in New Decade, New Approach that need to be progressed. It will send out a clear message to all in the House and to the public, if the compromise agreement contents can be delivered. I will highlight something that Mr Buchanan mentioned: an unintended consequence of the Committee on Procedures motion is that it will be good for those of us who have limited hearing.”
“Unlike others who think that, when you review something, you take something away, I think that, if we have more people using another language, we have the opportunity to add to it and to add to the investment at that stage.”
“I know that the word "oxter" was used often. <BR /> <BR />Alliance joined the Executive on the basis of New Decade, New Approach. That agreement was a compromise that all the Executive parties had the opportunity to feed into. The wording of the motion — I am sure that the Chair of the Committee can confirm it — is a direct lift from 'New Decade, New Approach'. Of course we will support the motion brought forward by the Committee on Procedures, because we had agreed it already, when we went into the Executive. <BR /> <BR />Alliance will also support the Ulster Unionist amendment. We will do so because it is always financially prudent to review things later.”
“That is a direct lift from 'New Decade, New Approach', and all five parties in the current Executive agreed to it. <BR /> <BR />I see absolutely no threat from anyone being able to speak another language; in fact, I am very jealous, because I am dreadful at other languages. It is beautiful to hear someone being fluent in another language, and I look forward to hearing Irish and Ulster Scots spoken in the Chamber more often. Sadly, I will need an Irish translation, as I cannot speak Irish. I expect that I will be able to understand Ulster Scots, having lived down the Ards peninsula all my life, with a grandmother who, I think, was speaking Ulster Scots. I know that most of her words could not be found in an English dictionary. She lived outside Portavogie, so I can only assume that it was Ulster Scots.”
“I can confirm that New Decade, New Approach provided the commitment and agreement:”
“I thank the Minister for taking his time to consider our carers. They are all pandemic heroes.”
“Thank you very much, Minister. That is very much appreciated. <BR /> <BR />We need measures to enable flexible access to respite support for all carers, including end-of-life carers. We need to ensure that the needs of carers, including end-of-life carers, are met and that their voices are listened to in the rebuilding of health and social care plans. We need to consider the unique challenges that are associated with caring for people with learning disabilities, dementia or a terminal illness. The Department will, of course, include all those people in the wider work of reforming adult social care. <BR /> <BR />It is a tough time for carers out there, but we have a Minister who is committed to them.”
“I will indeed. <BR /> <BR />We need flexible access to respite —.”
“Did the Northern Ireland Executive carry forward unspent money, for which carers were supposed to apply? We need flexible access to respite —.”
“Money being invested in organisations is good for those who are able to avail themselves of that support, but it is not so good for the very many others among us who do not get it. <BR /> <BR />As I said, not all carers get carer's allowance. We need a carers' register. I know, Minister, that that will be a heartbreak for you, because how do you find out the information? We heard all about it when others talked about us throughout the COVID pandemic and when getting vaccinations. I heard members of the public saying, "Sure, they're just making up that they're a carer". Everybody's life is different. The one-off payment was mentioned in January. Carers are holding that up to us, day in and day out. They want to know when it is coming forward.”
“I am aware that some tiny parts of day-centre care and respite care are available if people know where to ask for it and if it is available in your trust area. It is not available in all trusts or for all people. In fact, the number who get to use day centres is so limited that the service may as well not be there for most. It also depends on the contacts that you have in the area. Mr Chambers said that funding has been provided for carers. It has been provided for carers' organisations. I can put my hand on my heart and say that the majority of carers are not even in contact with all those organisations, even though the organisations would love them to be. Until I came to this place, I did not know about Carers NI and a lot of the other organisations.”
“During COVID, unfortunately, we had no support at all. Even if you wanted respite, it was gone. Day centres were gone. That left us at home with the person whom we cared for. In my family's situation, my dad was shielding home alone with my brother, who is non-verbal, so that was a difficulty. He looked after the person but was not able to speak to anyone. All of that support was gone in an instant. <BR /> <BR />I talk to carers all the time, as you can imagine. A lot of carers phone me and say, "The pubs are open. Why is respite not? It's not just that I'm absolutely exhausted, but the person I care for is sick looking at me and needs a break from me too". As my colleague Paula Bradshaw said, it is a postcode lottery.”
“I am lucky that my brother can feed himself, but he cannot wash a dish or his clothes. That is all of the stuff that carers do, day in and day out. Part of the qualification for a carer's allowance is that you have to have broken sleep patterns. That is 48,000 people, whom we know of, who have a broken sleep pattern every night. It is not a nine-to-five job. Rather, it is something that happens seven days a week, 365 days a year. It does not matter what happens or when it happens. There will always be times when sleep goes out the window completely. It could be something as simple as the person being excited, as my brother is, at 49 years of age, for Santa coming. Sleep goes out the window for about a week. <BR /> <BR />Many things happen, but, until COVID, everybody just got on with it.”
“I then asked how many people are registered with the trusts, expecting the figure to be higher than 48,000, as more people can be registered with trusts, because any carer can register with them. I was absolutely astounded to find out that, instead of there being more than 48,000, only 8,000 are registered with our trusts. Given the fact that carers are mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children, aunts, uncles and friends of people, it is an issue that cuts across all of society. <BR /> <BR />Minister, as you know, and we know, many carers are hidden. They are in the background, getting on with what they do. I will give you a slight insight into my world: it involves cleaning their teeth, shaving them, helping them up, getting them dressed, putting them to bed and getting them something to eat.”
“Thank you very much, Minister. You will be sick, sore and tired of me mentioning the word "carers". <BR /> <BR />I start by declaring an interest. I am, as everybody knows, a carer. I have an elderly father and a disabled brother. Many other carers are just not known about. There is no carers' register, and, as others have said, we absolutely need one. <BR /> <BR />I did a bit of research into who the carers are. In January, when the Minister mentioned the possibility of bringing forward a payment for carers, I thought about how we would identify them. We know that over 48,000 people are in receipt of carer's allowance. We also know that a heck of a lot of carers are not allowed to receive that allowance. Some may be working.”
“Thank you, Minister. I am not asking you about carers today. I will leave that for later. You talked about staff, and the other important people in this mix are, of course, our patients across Northern Ireland. How will you communicate with those patients? Much of their stress comes from not knowing when they will be treated. How does this fit in with the rebuild of trusts and those waiting on small but crucial waiting lists, such as access to IVF, or on the larger lists that have now developed because people have not been able to get access to treatment, such as those for the pain clinics?”
“I thank the Department for the Economy for being brave enough to introduce the Bill.”
“Men tend to get fixated on work; they want to work their way through it and try to deal with that grief, so they will not want the time off immediately. The 56 weeks should be considered, especially if, as Ms Brogan mentioned, anyone has to go to Liverpool to take remains there, to bring them back home again or find out the results of a post-mortem. It takes months to happen, so it is important that we are flexible with that. <BR /> <BR />I leave it to the Committee and the Minister to decide what the money situation is. I have to say that, when I went through it, I could not have cared less whether money was going into my bank account or not. I just needed the time, and that is what we can give parents. Again, I am sorry if I have upset anybody today. Loss of a child is a hard thing to go through.”
“If we can do something like this, through what is a very difficult Bill — it is not a nice one to have to take through, but that is where the heart of the Assembly comes from — it will make a massive difference to all employers and employees. I ask the Committee to look at it first, and, if it needs to, take a ministerial direction. We have to include miscarriage in the Bill. It is one of the things that is taboo in Northern Ireland. It is hidden. We need to protect those parents. I apologise again if I have upset anyone. <BR /> <BR />For years, I helped women and men to go through their grief process. Women can have the physical pain, initially, and then they will go on, and their grief will last years.”
“Many of them can tell stories, as I can, about the trauma that can happen because their child is not there. However, can you imagine how horrendous it is when your child does not even have a grave? That is the problem when we exclude miscarriage. <BR /> <BR />Parental bereavement is horrendous. It is not something that leaves you. You end up having such a shock that it takes quite a while before your grief kicks in. That is when your employer is about to lose you. When I got back on my feet, the first thing that I did was to hand in my notice. I had had it with my employers. They did not care; they could not care; they never would care about any other woman in my situation. That is what a bad employer does.”
“We do not know how many others have their losses at home. Even if we turn round and say, "Well, actually, if you have an admission in hospital, we will count that, and that will be your proof", it is really hard to prove. That is where we come back to compassion. Do we need to have a cold, hard piece of paper that tells someone what has happened? I do not believe that, in Northern Ireland, anybody will make up a miscarriage in order to get two paid weeks off work. I really do not believe that that would happen. It is blatantly obvious when you speak to someone. Mr O'Dowd talked about the sombre experience. There is something that just hits a person who has lost a child. They will never make up something like that. <BR /> <BR />As has been said, there are lots of parents who, sadly, have been through the loss of a child.”
“That is part of the discussions that I ask the Committee to take up with Health and others. A piece of red tape and a piece of paper will cause us to deny lots of people in Northern Ireland help. <BR /> <BR />Over the years, I have tried to find out how many people like me — I mean employees in Northern Ireland — have been through this and need help. They need help and support through Health. About 3,500 people per year go to hospital during their loss, and those figures are just the tip of the iceberg.”
“Thank you. I am not the only one. I was a bereavement counsellor for a number of years. When you have been through this, you can speak candidly with people who have been through bereavement. It is not my story alone. There are plenty of people, men and women, out there who have gone through this. <BR /> <BR />There are lots of parents out there who do not get to meet their children, but they are still parents. Not recognising miscarriage further harms the bereaved parents, and by excluding miscarriage, the language in the Bill will cause further harm. I ask the Committee to consider that. I know that, during Committee Stage, you will be faced with the hard question of proving it. Anybody who loses a baby up to 23 weeks and six days does not get a death certificate. You get that only after a stillbirth, so how do you prove it?”
“I believe that there are a lot of employers out there who want clarification on what they can do for their employees who have had a miscarriage, especially when you consider that many of those employees will not even have had the opportunity to tell their employer that they were pregnant. What does that employee do instead? In my case, I went off sick for three months and was taking Valium — many people do that — because I just could not understand why it happened. It was only when I came off the medication that the grief hit, so I welcome the talk about 56 days potentially being extended —.”
“You care for that child from day one. If it is a wanted pregnancy, it is a part of your family immediately, but when you lose that child, that hidden grief and that taboo that has been talked about removes you from bereavement. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is called the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill. To be honest, when I lost my first, I had, as Mr Stalford described, a fear of losing my job. I was actually taken to a tribunal because I was making other employees uncomfortable because I had lost a baby. There were other people in the workplace who were pregnant at that stage. This type of legislation, if it includes miscarriage, can protect people like me, that is, fathers and mothers, from that type of activity.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are some unintended consequences in the legislation. I read through the Bill, and, although I welcome what it includes, it triggered me to no end because, in 112EE and 167ZZ18, it was very hard to read the conditions that apply when a person is considered to be a bereaved parent. You have to meet those conditions — you absolutely have to meet them — but, under the Bill, you have to prescribe the relationship you had with a child who has died or outline the care that you took of a child before they died. When you talk about a family member who is going through miscarriage, you have to remember that, from the time they find out they are pregnant and are going to have a baby, they think about the names, whether it will be a girl or a boy and what school they will go to. All those things are there.”
“The definition of miscarriage is a health matter. It is fact. Twenty-three weeks and six days is a miscarriage. Anything beyond that, from 24 weeks, is a stillbirth, but those of us who have been through miscarriage will know that the bereavement is no different. It is still a bereavement. <BR /> <BR />I have spoken in the Chamber before about my experiences of miscarriage, so it will not come as any surprise when I say that, of my 14 children, 13 were lost through miscarriage. It broke my heart, and it breaks my heart. It is one of the hardest things that I have ever had to go through. I may stand here not crying, but I am shaking inside, because I am speaking today on behalf of all those families out there who are going through it, have been through it and will go through it.”
“I welcome our new Minister for the Economy to the position. I thank his predecessor for introducing the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I also offer my sincere apologies to Mr Storey. Unfortunately, I wish I was not as like you. That is one of the saddest things you can ever go through. I apologise for any upset that my contribution will cause to anyone in the Chamber or to anyone who is listening to or reading my words, because they could be a trigger for anyone who has lost a child in pregnancy. I apologise for that in advance. <BR /> <BR />I absolutely welcome the Bill, Minister. It is right to give parents leave and to allow them time away from work in what can only be described as the most horrendous period in anyone's life. I beg — I use that three-letter word — the Committee and the Minister to please include miscarriage in the Bill.”
“Thank you very much, Minister. Carrying on with the theme of payment for health and social care staff, UNISON's campaign calls for an immediate £2,000 pay rise. Have you engaged with Executive colleagues to advance that? Have you talked with the UK Treasury about appropriate levels of pay to ensure staff retention?”