Kellie Armstrong
Strangford · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Fisheries, Aquaculture and Water Environment Bill. It is timely and important. Miss McIlveen, a fellow MLA for the Strangford constituency, has just spoken.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill reflects the realities of the post-Brexit landscape by aligning protections here with those in other UK jurisdictions and the UK Fisheries Act. That consistency is important for standards, enforcement and international confidence in our products.”
“Last year, I met the Department and we discussed that. The opportunities for seaweed farming in Strangford lough are wonderful, and the opportunities from seaweed that Queen's University has identified are incredible. We are lucky to have those opportunities on our doorstep, as long as there is licensing and it is properly looked after.”
“Moving beyond managing individual fisheries, the Bill recognises the interconnected nature of our rivers, loughs and seas — an approach that is very much in line with Alliance's commitment to evidence-based environmental policy. The inclusion of a national benefit objective is also significant.”
“A while ago, we saw that commercial bottom trawling had all but decimated the horse mussel population in Strangford lough. It has since been changed to a special area of conservation. That limits a lot of activity in the lough, which is not a bad thing considering that horse mussels are coming back.”
“They allow for timely action on lower-level offences without over-burdening the courts while still acting as a meaningful deterrent. If only everybody were acting properly, we would not need to have those deterrents, but we are where we are, and the Bill hopes to improve upon that.”
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“Up until now, a lot of the data collected has been about Protestants and Catholics. We see that in other equality legislation. To be honest, that is where the Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) inspection will come in. The ETI will be able to go into an integrated school to see whether it is actually integrated. It is about more than just the numbers of the children in school; rather, as Ms Bailey talked about, it is about the curriculum, the culture, the sport, the arts, the teachers, the board members — all of that — as well as "reasonable numbers". <BR /> <BR />I am glad that Mr Storey, I think it was, mentioned Blackwater. I would love to invite Mr Storey down to Blackwater. It is a wonderful integrated school just outside Downpatrick. It is a school that has certainly improved its numbers.”
“I have not said that they have failed, and nor does the Bill, so I want to put that to bed. Each sector has fantastic teachers and children and may have wonderful academic results and vocational courses. As others have said, however, we have an education system that is very complex. Trying to help one sector does not mean that I am saying that there is anything wrong with the others. <BR /> <BR />Mr Storey brought up the phrase "reasonable numbers". That is already in legislation: in the Shared Education Act 2016, which talks about "reasonable numbers" of Protestants and Catholics. I am glad that "reasonable numbers" is in there. Over the years, we have had 40:40:20 and 70:30. The phrase "reasonable numbers" of Catholics and Protestants allows for the children across Northern Ireland who are of other faiths and of none to be included.”
“He claimed that the Bill tries to bring the maintained sector under the controlled sector: it does not. I have not mentioned that in any way, shape or form. He talked about the many reports. If any of those reports had delivered for integrated education, I would not have needed to bring forward this legislation. <BR /> <BR />Mr Storey said that I say that every other sector has failed. That is not true at all. Nobody has said that any other sector has failed. I do not want anybody leaving the House thinking for some reason that somebody who grew up in a Housing Executive house, went to maintained schools and managed to do well in education is trying to make out that any other sector has failed. Of course they have not. The other sectors have amazing teachers. They have been delivering education across Northern Ireland for years.”
“NICIE is already funded. I have put it in the Bill so that, rather than having it in policy, legislation will enable support for it. While we have various sectors, I think that the Member agrees that we have parental choice, but is that parental choice real when it comes to integrated education? <BR /> <BR />Mr Weir, who is not here at the moment, said that I was looking to provide a superior choice for integrated education. If that is the case, why do we already have the presumption that controlled and maintained schools will be provided for when new schools are being planned? <BR /> <BR />Mr Storey talked about choice and academic selection. That is not relevant to the Bill; I do not deal with that in it. He talked about the context of Northern Ireland: the 100 years and what could be coming in the future.”
“I thank Mr Butler for that. I will try to paint a picture in my mind. We will have all seen the equity versus equality cartoon in which three people of varying height are standing behind a fence. If all three are provided with a box of the same size, the shortest one — someone like me — will still not be able to see over the top. If you have equitable treatment and try to lift the person who is shorter, they will get on to a level playing field. Integrated education is so far behind all other sectors that we need to do something proactive to take it forward. <BR /> <BR />On clause 3, I want to clarify that there already is sectoral body support: the Controlled Schools' Support Council, CCMS, the Education Authority, Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta (CnaG) and NICIE are all there.”
“That is why the drafter said that putting in the section about new schools meant that the flexibility would still be there. I understand that many say that that makes integrated education superior to every other sector. Perhaps everyone in the House will now know what it feels like to be a parent of a child at an integrated school. Area planning does not plan for integrated schools — it does not.”
“I do not think that it does, especially clause 7, which so many have talked about. That is why clause 7 states that the presumption will be there. I have not defined special circumstances. That was on advice from the drafter, who felt that it would be better for the Department and the education bodies to consider the special circumstances. For instance, at the moment, when planning the establishment of a new school, the Department or Education Authority, if there is a gap in provision that means that more places for children with special educational needs are required, can plan for a special educational needs school. That could be a special circumstance. If I were to define special circumstances, it would take that flexibility from the Department.”
“<BR /> <BR />On promotion, the Education Authority and CCMS lead on planning. If integrated education is to be included, both will need to consider integrated education and enable it or promote its provision. I would like, as part of area planning, consideration to be given to parental demands when planning the school estate so that, instead of integrated schools having to be set up by parents outside the system, the Education Authority, CCMS and the Department will consider integrated schools. <BR /> <BR />I thank Mr Butler for his input. Parental choice is important. Educating children together is a component of our peace process. Although it is not the only thing that will provide a solution, it can help to improve things for society in general. He said that the Bill spoke unkindly about other sectors.”
“I will have to defer to the Research and Information Service and come back to you. I think that there is discrimination through area planning. To be honest, that is only my position. I need to look at that and bring the answer back to you. Rather than spoofing, I want to give you the proper information. <BR /> <BR />Mr McCrossan said that the SDLP had concerns about the Bill. That is not surprising. When I was speaking to parties, they raised concerns. The Bill does not wish to close any other sector's schools. I just want children and families who choose an integrated school to have their choice honoured. I am happy to work with Members on the Bill. If it passes Second Stage today, it will go to the Education Committee, where, I am certain, members will take further evidence.”
“I am aware of at least one that I was involved with as a member of the board of governors of Strangford Integrated College, where the school had applied for a development proposal and was turned down and got to the stage of writing the letter to say that it was about to take legal action, and then the Department reneged on that and went back on its decision. I am aware that integrated schools have had to fight. The same school has asked to take on temporary variations. I do not know why that cannot be made permanent.”
“Almost a quarter of pupils applying for an integrated post-primary place in 2019-2020 were unsuccessful not because they were turned away by the school but because it did not have the space for them. There is still a need for more places, but the process to fulfil demand either through growing integrated schools or transforming schools can be long and drawn-out. Seven per cent feels as if it has stalled, but it has stalled because, unlike other schools, integrated schools are not getting the support that they need.”
“Thus, the number of children in integrated schools has more than doubled, and the number of schools has increased by 24 since 1998. Each place in an integrated school is developed with parents and for parents. The process involves the production of a development proposal and the collection of expression of interest forms. The full process can take two to three years to conclude. Demand from parents is demonstrated by numerous surveys. The most recent is the Northern Ireland life and times survey, which came out last week. It shows that 69% of parents support their children being together in a mixed-religion school. The March 2021 ARK research update, which draws on the 2019 Northern Ireland life and times survey, said then that it was 61%, so you can see that it is growing.”
“I am not here to criticise any other sector, and I do not mention any other sector in the Bill. All sectors do the best that they can. Of course, shared education has been trying its very best. A lot of money has been put into it, a lot of schools have been involved, and a lot of teachers have taken training. I am not here to criticise that, but the fact that 7% of children attend integrated schools is because there is space for only 7% of children to go to integrated schools. <BR /> <BR />Mr McCrossan also said that integrated education was stalled at 7%; he did not use that word, but I will use it. Since the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, the number of pupils in integrated schools has grown from 11,910 to 24,900 in 2021.”
“The current system is bad for integrated education. Promoting integrated education and enabling integrated education to take more children is good for integrated education. There are other schools that will see that as competition. <BR /> <BR />I thank Daniel McCrossan for his input today. He said that we need to be more real and provide a viable option for parents. I thank him for that. To be honest, that is really what I am about here. He talked about the valuable contribution of all sectors and of shared education. I would like to dispel a myth: I came through a maintained school in which — I have said this before in the House — I had a fantastic education. I will never criticise it. I never attended a controlled school, so I cannot talk personally about that.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the promotion of integrated education, it has come forward that people are concerned that growing or promoting integrated education will be bad for other sectors. Integrated education is turning away so many children at this stage that I have to ask when the House will ask whether the current system is bad for integrated education. The 'Good Relations' report, which my colleague Chris Lyttle mentioned, has been showing for years the increased number of children being turned away from their first preference post-primary schools. It is up to 21% in the last recorded figures for 2018-19.”
“I find that very difficult because I find that, with integrated education, when you talk about differing abilities, you could have an integrated school where 35% of that school comprises people with special educational needs. Those children may, absolutely, achieve GCSEs or A levels, but they may not, and it may be that their pathway in life is vocational. Even at that, in integrated schools, 25·6% of pupils achieve three or more A levels at A* to C while, in non-integrated non-grammar schools, the figure is 22·9%, so the figure is slightly higher but is there or thereabouts. The source for that is the school census. In integrated education, 51% of pupils achieve five or more GCSEs at A* to C while, in non-integrated non-grammar schools, the figure is 52·3%. The figure is slightly lower at GCSE, and that is something for us to work on.”
“That is not just about those who have vocational abilities or those who have special educational needs, but it is about parents who wish to send their family, who have high academic abilities, to an integrated school. That is why some integrated schools use academic selection. Personally, when I sent my child to an integrated school, she did not need to have academic selection. She was able to enter without that, and my heart will be in my mouth at the start of August when I am waiting for her A-level results to come through. It did not stop her having that academic pathway that she chose to go down. <BR /> <BR />The Member talked about integrated education being one of the lowest-performing sectors. Do you know what?”
“The authors go on to discuss the implications for educational policies designed to promote greater cross-community contact. So, there is some information, although we need to have much more. If we have an outcomes-based system, I would love to see more evidence of the outcomes actually being achieved as opposed to the outputs. <BR /> <BR />The Member talked about integrated schools and academic selection. In some ways, this will come back to Mr Allister's point. There are integrated schools that use academic selection. There are integrated schools that have a grammar stream. Integrated schools use that because of the term "different abilities".”
“In 2018, Blaylock, Hughes, Wölfer and Donnelly stated:”
“A 2009 study by Hayes and McAllister states:”
“Thank you very much, Pat. Irish culture needs to be protected. He said that he had a different perspective from Mervyn Storey on that matter, and that structural inequalities exist outside the school system. We all need to work on that. School will not be the fix for our problems in Northern Ireland, but we can use it as a stepping stone. <BR /> <BR />Mr Sheehan asked whether there was any evidence that integrated education works. I thought about the type of evidence that I could provide for him.”
“I have to say that mention of the secular nature of integrated education is far from the truth. The Bill does not do anything to take away from that law that is in place in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Mr Newton and others talked about sharing. I am not opposed to sharing. The Bill uses much of the language of the Shared Education Act. I am delighted that Mr Newton recognised the various education sectors and the work that they do together in shared education. Parental choice is not prevented by the Bill. Instead, it allows parents to have integrated education as a real choice. The Bill does not ask for a new team, as was suggested. All that I have asked for is resources for the existing Irish-medium and integrated education team, some of whom have been deployed, at times, to shared education. <BR /> <BR />We now come to Mr Sheehan.”
“The NICIE 'Statement of Principles' that I was talking about states:”
“I did not meet Mr Baker because he has only been in post for a number of weeks, but I have met Gerry Campbell. In fact, I was out in his office in Lisburn. The Bill was published on the website, so they could have had sight of it. I did not take it to them personally because, to be honest, I did not have time between First Stage and the publication of the Bill and this point. I respected the House and the Speaker by not providing the detail of the Bill in advance of its publication by the Bill Office. I have met those organisations. I have met CCMS on several occasions at events in the House that many Members attended. I will move on. <BR /> <BR />People mentioned faith schools. Integrated schools are faith schools; some would actually say that they have too much faith in them.”
“The 'Statement of Principles' is divided into four sections —”
“Mr Newton mentioned the secularisation of schools through integrated education. Nothing in the Bill takes away from the Christian basis of all schools in Northern Ireland. I was approached at the consultation stage by humanists who would have liked me to put something about secularisation in the Bill. I am not doing that. The NICIE 'Statement of Principles' states:”
“We have had 17 contributors, including the Minister. I will try my best to fly through this because everybody wants to begin recess. Robin Newton was the first to contribute, and I thank him for doing so. I confirm that I held a 12-week consultation, there were 800 responses and all the relevant stakeholders were written to and met with. He mentioned that it was the wrong time for the Bill. Others have asked why I would bring it forward at this time, when the independent review of education is forthcoming. I would love to have had the opportunity to bring the Bill forward earlier, but we had a gap of three years. I brought the Bill forward as soon as I could. My private Member's Bill is the first that our Bill Office has brought through.”
“It is vital for our society, particularly for those parents who would prefer to have integrated education as an option, that integrated education is perceived as being a desired outcome and is promoted in our education system as something that will create the conditions that enable children and young people to learn together for a shared society. To do that, we need to be intentional in our inclusion of all those from perceived Catholic and Protestant backgrounds, as well as those from other cultures, beliefs and communities, to enable people to be confident in their own identity and be willing to tolerate and engage with other identities. <BR /> <BR />Now, I will speak to some of the comments that were raised, although I am sure that I will not give them all as much time as others have.”
“Indeed, MLAs from the Foyle constituency will have already heard the quote that I am about to read from Colm Cavanagh, who is one of the co-authors of the independent review of integrated education. He says:”
“— which is the Northern Ireland life and times survey —”
“I thank all those who took part in the debate this afternoon. Thank goodness it started a bit earlier than it should have, because we have spent some hours on it. <BR /> <BR />Before I came to the House today, Denis Loretto, who is well known to the integrated education movement, sent me a message. I thought that it would be an interesting piece to read to the House, and it reflects some of what others have said. He said:”
“It states in clause 7 that it would be for the Department, not an employing body, to set up the school. I remind the Member that the employing bodies, the CCMS and the Education Authority, are part of the area planning process. There is no area planning for integrated education at this time. Do I therefore surmise that it is arrogant that, when any new schools have been planned up until this stage have not been integrated schools, there is something wrong with that?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I remind the Member of Justice Treacy's ruling that integrated education is a "standalone concept". If there are spare places in a controlled school or a maintained school, why should an integrated school not be able to be developed further or to grow? As a Catholic living in an area perceived to be unionist, would it be assumed, where I live, that it would only be a controlled school and I would go to a maintained school? Why not an integrated school? The "standalone concept" means that, as a parent, I have the right to choose integrated education.”
“It is in there because grant-maintained integrated (GMI) schools do not have access, as you know, to legal or HR advice.”
“There is. The Member is diverging far from the Bill. I ask, Mr Deputy Speaker, if we could come back to the content of the Bill. There are many Members to speak.”
“The Speaker's Office allowed me to carry out that consultation in 2016-17. I met CSSC and CCMS at that time. Since the Bill has been introduced, I have not had the opportunity to consult with them, but I had contact from CCMS today asking me to meet it for discussions following this stage of the Bill, if it is passed. There is plenty of opportunity to do that. The Bill has not been passed yet, unfortunately, but I will take that opportunity. I met those organisations many times, however. That may well have been before Mr Baker took up his post, but I met them on several occasions. You have to remember that controlled integrated schools also fall under the CSSC.”
“Will the Member give way? I will say that I have consulted CCMS —”
“You can ask it during your contribution. <BR /> <BR />I thank you, Mr Speaker, and your office, the Assembly Research and Information Service (RaISe), the Bill Office and the parliamentary drafter Mr Greenberg for all their work on the Bill to get it to this stage. I know that she is not going to be too happy with my saying this, but I pay tribute to my research officer, Fiona McAteer, who has dedicated five years of her life to drafting the legislation and bringing it to this stage. Together, we have brought forward legislation for you to consider, and I look forward to hearing your comments and questions.”
“I will allow you to respond when you are making your speech. I am just about to finish.”
“The Department of Education has been given flexibility to develop and produce guidance on the legislation for education bodies and any other public authorities. <BR /> <BR />Clause 12 confirms the consequential amendments to legislation named therein as a result of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank you for allowing me the time to go through the clauses. Since First Stage, I have spoken with all the parties, except Mr Allister's: I have not spoken to the TUV. I am looking forward to hearing from all who will contribute to the debate, and I will hopefully be able to answer any questions and respond to any points of clarification that anyone wishes to ask.”
“The action plan will set out how steps to promote integrated education will be taken, how mandatory standardised training for teachers, non-teaching staff, governors and education bodies will be provided, and how the school inspection regime will take forward its inspection of the integrated ethos. <BR /> <BR />The regulations require collaboration and coordination on integrated education among other stakeholders. For example, there is a clear recognition between the need for shared housing and integrated education to enable the community cohesion for which we are all striving to happen. Importantly, regulations will include those on integrated education in systems for the planning and development of urban and rural areas.”
“The report will not simply sit on a shelf. The strategy and all updates to it have to be laid before the Assembly. The Education Committee will then be able to scrutinise effectiveness of performance against targets. I felt that it was important that the Assembly be given a key role in scrutinising the strategy and the action plan. <BR /> <BR />Under "Final provisions", the Department of Education must make regulations supplementing the legislation's provisions. The Bill states what the regulations may include and allows the Department to add to the provisions listed in the Bill, where appropriate. The Department will confirm how it will set benchmarks, how data will be captured, and how assessments and monitoring will take place and be measured.”
“It is worth noting that much of that is already being done through policy. I placed it as a requirement in the Bill, however, to ensure that, no matter who holds the Department of Education portfolio, resources and support for integrated education will continue. <BR /> <BR />The integrated education strategy must include an action plan that is co-produced, includes timetabled targets and benchmarks against which the success of the strategy can be measured. The Bill provides potential targets and benchmarks for the Department to include. <BR /> <BR />After the Bill receives Royal Assent, the strategy will be published and a report produced that updates the strategy every two years. That means that the Department of Education will be required to demonstrate how it has performed its integrated education functions.”
“I have spoken to parties already and highlighted the fact that there has not been a new school in years, and there is not likely to be a new school for quite some time. When there is, why do we not have a school that everyone can attend and that will allow all pupils and teachers to be together under one roof? <BR /> <BR />Clause 8 places a statutory duty on the Department of Education to:”
“Not at the moment. <BR /> <BR />I remind all Members that we have already agreed to the independent review of education and to the panel considering a single education system. That review report will, hopefully, be published in mid- to late 2022. The recommendations from that report, if accepted, will take years to implement. I expect that any fundamental changes to education that are proposed will take decades to implement. Bengoa will seem like a walk in the park compared with any attempt to change our education system, but we have committed to that. My clause 7 is an interim measure, with a get-out clause for where and when the local community decides something different from the presumption.”
“I have not defined special circumstances. I believe that the Department and the existing employing bodies will be able to agree that process. The 'Community Conversation Toolkit' created by Ulster University is one example that is already being used by the Education Authority. That toolkit allows a ground-up approach to decide the type of school that should be in an area. Not defining special circumstances allows the Department and the Education Authority to provide a special school, should they need to meet a growing demand for that. For clarity, a "new school" is a brand-new school. I have not intended "new" to include amalgamations or shared campuses. It will be for the Department to define how it will use the clause.”
“is flipped on its head to change the law to the presumption that any brand-new school will be integrated:”
“Why is that needed? It is because, unlike the controlled or maintained sector, there is no planning for integrated education. New integrated schools are set up by parents, many of whom have remortgaged their homes to fund a school. An integrated school depends on charitable funds raised by the Integrated Education Fund to support the building or rental of premises; to fund the recruitment and hiring of teachers; and to survive for two years before the Department may consider funding the school. That does not happen in the controlled or maintained sector. <BR /> <BR />In clause 7, the presumption that a new school will be controlled or maintained based on:”
“Strangford College — I am member of the board — turns away over 100 per year. That is a full year group of pupils denied the opportunity to attend an integrated school. If the House supports parental choice, where is the parental choice for families who want to send their child to an integrated school? <BR /> <BR />Under "Planning and strategy", which is clauses 6, 7 and 8, clause 6 places a general duty to include provision for integrated schools when:”
“The word "relevant" has been used specifically to counter the ongoing argument that, if you look at integrated education, you can identify a number of empty desks across Northern Ireland. When you look at the whole of Northern Ireland, you see that all sectors have empty desks. It is worth noting that integrated education happens to have the fewest empty desks. It is vital that the relevant catchment area is considered. <BR /> <BR />In my constituency, more children are refused a place at a post-primary integrated school than can attend one. Integrated schools have fewer unfilled places than the Northern Ireland average, and some of the post-primary schools are among the most oversubscribed in Northern Ireland. Lagan College, as we know, turns away an average of 200 plus pupils per year. Priory College in Holywood is oversubscribed.”