Kellie Armstrong
Strangford · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Fisheries, Aquaculture and Water Environment Bill. It is timely and important. Miss McIlveen, a fellow MLA for the Strangford constituency, has just spoken.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill reflects the realities of the post-Brexit landscape by aligning protections here with those in other UK jurisdictions and the UK Fisheries Act. That consistency is important for standards, enforcement and international confidence in our products.”
“Last year, I met the Department and we discussed that. The opportunities for seaweed farming in Strangford lough are wonderful, and the opportunities from seaweed that Queen's University has identified are incredible. We are lucky to have those opportunities on our doorstep, as long as there is licensing and it is properly looked after.”
“Moving beyond managing individual fisheries, the Bill recognises the interconnected nature of our rivers, loughs and seas — an approach that is very much in line with Alliance's commitment to evidence-based environmental policy. The inclusion of a national benefit objective is also significant.”
“A while ago, we saw that commercial bottom trawling had all but decimated the horse mussel population in Strangford lough. It has since been changed to a special area of conservation. That limits a lot of activity in the lough, which is not a bad thing considering that horse mussels are coming back.”
“They allow for timely action on lower-level offences without over-burdening the courts while still acting as a meaningful deterrent. If only everybody were acting properly, we would not need to have those deterrents, but we are where we are, and the Bill hopes to improve upon that.”
The complete record
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“I apologise for being in a place that I am not normally in. Minister, I add my thanks for the annual update on the rates exemption for ATMs. My contribution will be very quick. I have concerns about the definition of a rural area. It is not included in the explanatory notes or the order. There has been a growing change in what is considered to be rural. DAERA talks about settlements of under 2,500, and the Department for Communities talks about settlements of under 5,000. Across my rural constituency, I have towns, and, to be honest, very large villages, whose population falls between 2,500 and 5,000. How does the Department of Finance define a rural area, and can the Minister give assurances that ATMs in those areas will have access to the exemption?”
“This is a good day. While not all my amendments were accepted by everyone, people — I do not think that anyone is listening to us at this stage, but some might be — will see that we, as an Assembly, have worked really hard to get a balanced way forward for the people who hold licences for a taproom, for the local producers and for everyone. Most importantly, we have a hospitality sector that is trying its best to come back after COVID. I want to help those people. I think that we all want to help them, and we have gone a huge way towards doing that tonight.”
“We do not want people to guess how the Act will work. It is right and proper that professionals who work with the Minister be involved in producing that guidance. We should have a review, as in amendment No 59, at three and five years. The amendment gives the Department the opportunity to end the reporting, if it so chooses, after 10 years. I support amendment No 60, which is a technical amendment.”
“The independent reviewer could even say that the licensing system and the current surrender principle are fine. We need to trust that independent report. <BR /> <BR />I also support amendment No 46. It is appropriate that an annual publication of the number of operational liquor licences be produced. That list will help us see where the licences are located, where there is a concentration of licences and where there is a gap in provision. It will help planners, councils, the police and the health service. There is always merit in having access to data. <BR /> <BR />I support the Minister's amendment Nos 58 and 59. It is absolutely right and proper that guidance be produced.”
“That means that the pub that sold its licence is no longer in the area. The loss of that licence does not help the Pub is the Hub model promoted by Hospitality Ulster. I really like that model, and I thank Hospitality Ulster for introducing us to it. It is something that we should aspire to. <BR /> <BR />The Committee recommended that a balanced review of the surrender principle's impact on public health, on the economy and on rural and local community life be carried out. Mr O'Toole's amendment No 45 would introduce a new clause 18A that provides the opportunity to review the licensing system, including the balanced review that the Committee proposed. As others have said, the review does not mean that change will happen or that bad change will happen. Licence holders should and would have input into that review.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Alliance Party supports Mr O'Toole's amendment No 45, which calls for an independent person to undertake a review of the licensing system, including the operation of the surrender principle. We support that review, because, as the Committee report states, people gave us positive and negative experiences of the surrender principle. Witnesses from the University of Stirling confirmed to the Committee that our surrender principle controls the number of places that sell alcohol, and that is a good thing. They pointed out that that was very welcome when it comes to health. We also heard, however, that, when licence holders sell their licence, as they have the right to do, that licence is often sold to the highest bidder, which, in many cases, is a supermarket.”
“We are nearly at 2.00 am, so we are nearly at the end of our late licence. <BR /> <BR />I agree with Mr O'Toole that pubs are a key part of many people's lives. We have just to look at how much we have missed our pubs and hotels throughout the pandemic. As Ms Archibald said, this is a good day. The legislation has been a long time coming. There have been lots of votes tonight and lots of things have gone through, but this is modernising our liquor licensing and the registration of clubs. That is something that we should celebrate. As a member of the Committee, I have been in awe of the amount of work that our Committee staff, fellow Committee members, Bill Office staff and so many officials from the Department have done to help us.”
“Perhaps I can help on that matter. I had asked for a copy of that list and was told that I could go to the courthouses and do that investigation myself. There is no list. We were very kindly provided with a map as part of our considerations, but it was out of date. There is no current list of all our licences in Northern Ireland.”
“The number of amendments that we have show how seriously it has been considered and how much thought and consideration has gone into the legislation.”
“We talked about a limit on advertising and the removal of alcohol from loyalty schemes, but one of the key things that struck me most was the evidence that we received from the University of Stirling, which really put it front and centre that we needed to consider the impacts on health in all of our considerations. We will talk about the surrender principle when we move to group 4. The University of Stirling congratulated Northern Ireland on how we have limited the number of licences and the protections that that can have for the public. We will talk about that later. <BR /> <BR />It has been a long time, but I believe that, in the Bill, we have not forgotten about health, the impact of addiction and the impact that alcohol can have on families and individuals. I thank the Minister for all of her amendments.”
“It was through that youth engagement that we found out that some sports do not always work over the summer, as Ms Mullan mentioned. Cricket was the one that surprised me most; it needs access over the wintertime. <BR /> <BR />Thankfully, the Bill stops the use of self-service facilities, such as vending machines and honesty boxes. That is a welcome clarification. Their removal will mean that, where alcohol is available, the venue has control over sales. <BR /> <BR />Clarification on one-day membership of clubs means that people can no longer use club premises just to access the bar. They will need to be a member or have proof that they have paid a fee, to use the facilities of that sporting club for a day. <BR /> <BR />We talked about many things when we were taking on the health considerations.”
“It is a reasonable allowance that will protect young people from hanging about outside hotels or outside the venue where they have had their event, where there could be adults who are leaving from a late licence in another venue. I am grateful for that. It is a health protection that is an unintended consequence of the amendment. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the Minister and the Department's changes to allow sports clubs to permit young people to be on premises over the summer season and for the extended period from 1 May to 30 September. That followed discussions with representatives of various sports. Thanks to the Minister for allowing young people to access sports club functions up to three times per year during the rest of the year — to attend an awards ceremony, for example.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am delighted that the Committee was permitted to bring forward a requirement in the Bill for the Department of Health to produce minimum pricing per unit within three years of this Bill becoming an Act. It is absolutely a matter for the Minister of Health, but it will help to reduce the abuse of alcohol. It has happened in other places and has been shown to work. <BR /> <BR />While young people can attend functions later in the evening, they will have to be accompanied by a responsible person who will act as their parent. As I said, school formals will be allowed to continue to 1.00 am, and I am grateful to the Minister for tabling amendment No 37.”
“<BR /> <BR />I reiterate what the Chair said: we have taken forward difficult programmes before. The anti-smoking campaign was tough, but it worked. The campaign on wearing a seat belt was tough, but it worked. With appropriate cross-departmental commitment and investment, we can further address the public health issues created by the abuse of alcohol. For instance, young people brought up the issue of the number of adults or older young people who buy drink for them at off-licences and carry it out to them. That needs to stop, and we need to consider how we can prevent it. We need to engage, and co-production and co-design work.”
“The misuse and abuse of alcohol is not just a health issue; we need to ensure that we reach out to those young people through education and communicate in a way that suits their needs and with which young people will engage. That has never been so clear than during the COVID pandemic of the last year, when we have had to adopt and adapt to different methods of communication. I do not know how many times we have used the word "Zoom" in the last year. Two years ago, you would never have heard about that. Through our young people's event and the many other events that the Committee held, we had the opportunity to engage with people in a way that allowed them to speak less formally and more communicatively. That was very good, especially throughout this process.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Minister will be pleased to hear that I will not talk about 208 days, times or anything like that, because I support all the amendments in this group. As the Chair stated, in March, we had a very informative session with young people, who brought us back to earth by confirming that, whatever rules we bring in, young people will find a way to drink if they want to drink. Minister, the fact that you have allowed school formals to continue to 1.00 am means that, as Ms Mullan said, a lot fewer young people will be disappearing off to private house parties where they will be drinking. Hopefully, it will get back to what it was like in the dark ages when I had a school formal. <BR /> <BR />The Committee has recommended improvements to the marketing of the message that needs to be brought forward.”
“I am extremely tired. I hope that the rest of the Members in the Chamber understand just how many hours we put into this legislation. If you are tired along with me, this is what it has been like for some time. <BR /> <BR />As was said, the group 3 amendments consider how we can minimise alcohol-related harm in society. I thank the Chair, our Clerks and all those who support us in Committee for their efforts to ensure that we had access to a range of witnesses who spoke about the impact that alcohol has on health. I could never have imagined the number of witnesses to whom we would speak, the range of information that they provided or the value that they gave us, but here we are.”
“Thank you very much, Minister. I appreciate your time on this matter. You said that there has not been consultation, but there seem to be an awful lot of negative impacts coming out of local producers. Will you clarify where the consultation is that has identified those negative impacts? I am concerned that an opinion is coming forward that local producers are all bad, that there is something wrong with them and that they will always harm pubs, when my experience is that they strongly complement local rural pubs.”
“I therefore turn to the Minister and say the same as Mr Allen: it would be really good if, in your summary, you could confirm that you will bring forward the consultation on the ability of cinemas to sell alcohol, if they apply to do so.”
“Group 2 also includes the amendment, tabled by Claire Sugden, which expands the definition for cinemas. To be honest, the Alliance Party is happy to support that amendment. As others have said, we were happy to support that during Committee Stage. We recognise that the Minister has given assurances that she will complete a consultation over the summer. Part of me thinks that we are just delaying the inevitable. QFT, for instance, provides alcohol on its premises, but it does not provide alcohol during the film festival when children's films are on, so cinema managers are very careful with their offer. Not all cinemas have to apply for this. There may be cinema suppliers that say that this is not for them, but why are we denying others? From the sound of things, unfortunately, it seems like your amendment is not going to pass, Ms Sugden.”
“We would not limit a cheesemaker or any other artisan food producer in that way, so why are we doing it to producers of alcoholic drinks?”
“If you walk into a brewery and see someone drinking gin, it is blatantly obvious that it has not been brewed in that local producer's brewery. Taprooms are not like pubs, which are free to sell a range of beers, wines, spirits and ciders. Pubs can have late licences: these producers will not.”
“My 208 days are based on the fact that 4.00 pm to 10.00 pm is not financially viable for taprooms. The Minister has tabled amendment No 25, and we then have amendment No 28. We would have two days a week, 11.00 am to 11.00 pm. That is a fair move forward. As I said, look at how amazing Bushmills is. If we allow our producers to generate an income, they can be more sustainable. <BR /> <BR />I ask Members to think about the limitations that we are placing on a taproom. A taproom is not a pub. Taprooms can sell only their own alcoholic drinks. Mr Wells asked how we could prove that it is their own drink. They are allowed to sell it only with the container that it comes with. It is there; it is spelled out. We discussed that at Committee Stage.”
“I will take the Member back to the way that the Bill will go. Amendment No 25 is the Minister's proposal for 104 days. We know that that can be amended through regulation. However, in the Bill, if we stick to 4.00 pm to 10.00 pm, that is it; that does not get changed. If amendment Nos 25 and 30 go forward, my amendment No 31 is not taken, so we will have 104 days, six hours a day, 12 hours a week. We could extend that from 11.00 am to 11.00 pm to cover a period that is reasonable. Not everyone has to apply for the full amount of time. We know that there are cideries, for instance, that say that they are not interested in having a taproom. That is fine, but let us give those who are interested the opportunity. That is why I have tabled the amendments.”
“We are asking local producers to amend their premises so that they are suitable for the public to go in and drink. They have to make sure that the place is safe and that there are toilets. People will be taking alcohol, and we have to make sure that they are safe. We are saying to that group of producers, "You can sell for only 12 hours a week". That is why they have come back and said, "Double the number of days, please. That will make it financially viable for us to be taprooms".”
“I thank the Member. I will deal with his last point first. Six hours a day, two days a week, means 12 hours. They cannot get anyone to work in their premises. As the Chair said:”
“I have to go back to our considerations at Committee Stage. A figure of 104 was brought forward, but there was no consultation with local producers after that. The producers told me that, if they were going to be forced to operate from 4.00 pm to 10.00 pm — six hours a day — they would need to be open at least four days a week to enable them to employ someone to work in the taproom.”
“<BR /> <BR />Many pubs and hotels do not stock locally produced Northern Ireland craft beers or ciders because they have a commitment to stock international producers' brands; indeed, at Second Stage, I confirmed and nobody argued against me that 99% of the beer sold in Northern Ireland is produced elsewhere. A taproom licence provides an opportunity for our local artisan distillers and breweries to sell their products for consumption, which will allow them to generate an income to help them to develop their brands. As people get more opportunity to enjoy those drinks, perhaps we will see more pubs and hotels stocking Northern Ireland produce. Look at how amazing Bushmills is as a brand. Imagine what could be achieved if we gave our local producers the ability to grow and develop.”
“Not just at the moment. Thank you. <BR /> <BR />I tabled those amendments because I spoke to a number of local producers, after the proposal of 104 days and the operating hours of 4.00 pm to 10.00 pm was made, and they confirmed that that proposal is financially problematic for them. It means that their taprooms would be allowed to sell their products for consumption on the premises for only 12 hours a week. Local producers asked me how many people the Assembly thinks will apply for a job that can provide only 12 hours a week of paid work. As the Economy Minister stated yesterday, the potential growth in tourism is directly linked to food and drink tourism. If we want to develop the local producer market, we have to allow that market to grow. To do that, local producers need to be able to sell their products.”
“<BR /> <BR />I cannot agree with the limits that have been proposed that exclude taprooms from applying for an occasional licence. While the Committee considered that, after further consideration and reflection, I believe that that is wrong. Why should taprooms be excluded from occasional licences when they are already limited by the number of days that they will be permitted to open and the hours that they can operate? As Members are aware, I have tabled amendments to ask that taprooms be allowed to operate 208 times per year — there are Kellie's 208 days — which is the equivalent of four times per week, and that operating hours be changed from 4.00 pm to 10.00 pm to 11.00 am to 11.00 pm.”
“<BR /> <BR />As others have done, I pay tribute to Claire McCanny of the Bill Office. Claire, you will be loving us. Her attention to detail and patient approach with each of us on the Committee, especially me, certainly enabled us to consider how to provide an opportunity for taprooms and how they could have a place in the market. Thank you, Claire. <BR /> <BR />During debate at Committee, I confirmed that I thought that we had not gone far enough for taprooms, and that is included in the Committee report. I have been a supporter of taprooms for a long time, so it will come as no surprise to anybody who knows me that I am not grabbing headlines. I have been working on this for the past five years, but we will get to that later.”
“That is why I support the new clauses that will allow for a local producer's licence to allow for those who want to sell their product in a closed container to be consumed off the premises or want to provide visitors on a tour with the opportunity to try a sample. I also support the taproom licences through which local producers can sell their products for consumption in their premises for a set number of days per year. I am aware that, if we put the hours that a taproom can operate in the Bill, that number cannot be changed by regulations and can be changed by primary legislation only. I thank the Minister for tabling the amendment on a taproom licence. The Committee considered how it could bring forward a taproom licence, and we are thankful that the Minister decided to include taprooms in her consideration of the Bill.”
“Breweries are generally located in industrial estates or farms and are primarily manufacturing companies. The experience is totally different from that of sitting in the comfortable environment of a pub. Breweries require infrastructure that makes it difficult for them to open in town or city centres. The planning process is designed to allow opposition to any proposed development at a council level. That is not something that should be legislated for. We have council planning departments for that reason. <BR /> <BR />Alliance agrees that taprooms using occasional licences is far from ideal. That is why we believe that local producers need their own licence to ensure that all the regulations and requirements of selling alcoholic produce can be monitored and measured.”
“As we turn to the group 2 amendments, I want to clarify my position and the Alliance Party's position on local producers. Allowing a brewery or distillery to sell its own products does not constitute a quasi-pub. Taprooms are the norm across the world. They are places where visitors to a brewery can relax and build a connection to the brand without the confines of their stay being limited to having a small sample after a tour. Given that local breweries wish to sell only their own products, that is not competing with a pub that can sell a wide range of products.”
“<BR /> <BR />I ask Members to consider whether we are limiting the hospitality sector to two late nights a week. We can increase that. My amendments Nos 2 and 5 extend the number of late licences for smaller and larger pubs to 208. That ties in with the proposals that I have made for taprooms, much later, in the other groupings. That is why that figure of 208 has carried through in the same way as 104 has carried through from the Committee. <BR /> <BR />Like the Chair, I cannot support Mr Allister's opposition to clauses 2 and 4. We should update and modernise our licensing rules. It has been 24 long years. I ask Members to commit to moving forward by allowing the hospitality sector to be permitted to open late, not just at weekends but during the week.”
“In saying that, I support the Minister's amendment No 1, which brings the additional opening hours on a Sunday in line with what is allowed on weekdays; Nos 3 and 6, which increase requirements for a licensed venue to give notice to its neighbours of its intention to apply for a late licence; No 47, which creates a new clause that requires a licensed venue to apply to the courts for permission to alter premises before carrying out the work and fixes an anomaly that was raised by the police; and No 48, which creates a new clause that removes restrictions on late opening on a Sunday. The Minister's amendment No 49 limits authorisations for special occasions to a maximum of 104. My amendment No 50 asks that we consider an increase in the number of potential special occasions to up to 208.”
“The hospitality sector contributes much to the economy. We should put our trust in that sector to enable the night-time economy. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 2 to clause 2, page 3, line 22 asks that we allow larger pubs the opportunity to apply for 208 licences per year. Amendment No 5 to clause 4, page 5, line 26 asks that we allow smaller pubs — the type that are spread across my rural constituency — to be allowed to apply for up to 208 licences a year in line with larger pubs.”
“Our night-time economy needs a boost, rather than having to concentrate late licences on two nights per week. Why not allow our hospitality industry the opportunity to open up to 208 nights per year? That would provide more operating hours, more opportunity to deliver hospitality to customers and more opportunities for employment. I accept that some may have concerns that late-night opening will be problematic and will mean lots of drunk people and violence: I do not agree. More late licences would be well managed, as professional bar personnel manage how much alcohol is consumed and door staff manage crowds through the night as they disperse. Adding more late-night offerings dilutes the intensity of a two-night weekend and could spread the ability to go out over three or four nights in a week.”
“Given the fact that it has been 24 years since the last change and the operating hours on a day can be changed by regulation but the number of days set in the Bill cannot, I produced the figure of 208 nights so that people could apply for up to that number.”
“I think that there is some confusion, because I was led to believe that the number of days that are available for operation cannot be changed unless primary legislation is changed.”
“Those officials definitely made technical and complex legislation easier to understand. <BR /> <BR />Yesterday, we heard in the House how the Minister for the Economy set her sights on the opportunities to grow tourism as we recover from the pandemic. I hope that the new Minister for the Economy, Mr Frew, will value the opportunity to develop our tourism offer and work with the Minister for Communities to support our hospitality industry. I met representatives from Hospitality Ulster yesterday afternoon. The industry's plans to come back stronger and better need our support. That is why I tabled my amendments to group 1. <BR /> <BR />Alongside the Minister's amendments on Sunday opening hours, I have proposed that larger and smaller venues can apply for up to 208 licences per year. That equates to four days per week.”
“Today, as others confirmed, we are debating legislation that has the potential to modernise and update the licensing and registration of clubs in Northern Ireland. The legislation on the licensing of alcohol has not been overhauled or updated in about 24 years. Many in the House can remember the successful private Member's Bill by Judith Cochrane of the Alliance Party, which permitted sports stadia to serve alcohol during matches. Apart from that Bill, there has been little change to the rules on the selling of alcohol. We have the opportunity to bring the legislation up to date. As a member of the Committee for Communities, I reiterate the sentiments of our Chair and many others, and I add my thanks to all officials, both from our own Bill Office and the Department, for assisting us in our considerations.”
“Thank you, Minister. Are you concerned that the maximum level of postgraduate support of £5,500 is discouraging postgraduate study by Northern Ireland residents?”
“I hope that this petition is not a continuation of their request falling on closed ears.”
“Many carers have been on call all day, every day in the past year, always on duty, never getting a night's sleep and with no time to themselves or proper time with family or close friends. Many spent that time shielding in isolation with the person whom they care for, and many now suffer with depression. <BR /> <BR />Unsurprisingly, many carers are now exhausted, and they are worried about how they will continue to care without increased support. The Carers Northern Ireland research shows the impact that reduced support from services and from family and friends has had on carers' health and well-being. It demonstrates that, without the right interventions, there could be significant carer breakdowns. We cannot allow that to happen. It would have a massively negative impact on our health service. Carers are asking for help.”
“For carers, a break is time off from caring and a chance to do things that they would like to do but cannot do while caring. Those are everyday things, such as catching up with friends, going for a walk or simply catching up on sleep. It could be for 30 minutes, an afternoon or a week. A break could be provided by accessing care services, such as replacement care, sitting services, a day service or through support from family and friends providing respite or essential care. <BR /> <BR />Over the past year, the COVID-19 pandemic has had a significant impact on carers' ability to access breaks. Not only are the majority of carers — 81% — providing more care than before the pandemic but their responsibilities have grown as the support that they used to rely on has reduced.”
“Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to present a petition calling on the Minister of Health to support carers by reopening all respite and day centres across Northern Ireland and to make good on his announcement in January of a COVID carers' payment. <BR /> <BR />The postcode lottery and the partial opening of services for people with disabilities and older people are not working. They and their carers are past breaking point. This is carers' week, and I am here on behalf of the 1,100 petition signatories and the thousands of carers to ask why we are still being denied support. If pubs can open, why can respite care not? <BR /> <BR />This morning, Carers NI launched its 'Breaks or Breakdown' report, which confirms the impact that the pandemic has had on carers. It states:”
“I beg to introduce the Integrated Education Bill [NIA 23/17-22], which is a Bill to make provision about integrated education; and for connected purposes.”
“It is a big job of work for your Department, Minister, but the bonds are there, so please use them.”
“Hopefully, I will not need it, Mr Deputy Speaker. I agree with Mr Beggs. Any developer who misses targets should not be allowed to apply for reduced bonds in the future. <BR /> <BR />Developers are leaving people high and dry. Of course, some may go into bankruptcy — we have seen that happen over the last number of years — but the residents — the people who are paying money and rates — are the ones being let down. We have to get innovative. I know that your budget is tough, Minister, and I do not envy you at all, but, honestly, the residents in Killyeagh are one example of people across Northern Ireland. I do not want to have to watch again one of the residents pulling 20 bins to the road down a steep hill that is half a mile long, because it is not good enough.”