Kellie Armstrong
Strangford · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Fisheries, Aquaculture and Water Environment Bill. It is timely and important. Miss McIlveen, a fellow MLA for the Strangford constituency, has just spoken.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill reflects the realities of the post-Brexit landscape by aligning protections here with those in other UK jurisdictions and the UK Fisheries Act. That consistency is important for standards, enforcement and international confidence in our products.”
“Last year, I met the Department and we discussed that. The opportunities for seaweed farming in Strangford lough are wonderful, and the opportunities from seaweed that Queen's University has identified are incredible. We are lucky to have those opportunities on our doorstep, as long as there is licensing and it is properly looked after.”
“Moving beyond managing individual fisheries, the Bill recognises the interconnected nature of our rivers, loughs and seas — an approach that is very much in line with Alliance's commitment to evidence-based environmental policy. The inclusion of a national benefit objective is also significant.”
“A while ago, we saw that commercial bottom trawling had all but decimated the horse mussel population in Strangford lough. It has since been changed to a special area of conservation. That limits a lot of activity in the lough, which is not a bad thing considering that horse mussels are coming back.”
“They allow for timely action on lower-level offences without over-burdening the courts while still acting as a meaningful deterrent. If only everybody were acting properly, we would not need to have those deterrents, but we are where we are, and the Bill hopes to improve upon that.”
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“The Good Friday Agreement recognises the term "other", which is, of course, insulting. It then says that there are more than two communities. I ask the First Minister, when he references "the community of Northern Ireland", to recognise that there are more than two communities. <BR /> <BR />We are a diverse community. During Question Time today, the First Minister was asked about refugees. We have had disgusting and despicable accusations that those people will come to Northern Ireland, take our jobs and steal our homes. Those accusations have come not just from people outside the House but from elected representatives in other places in Northern Ireland.”
“I ask the Minister to consider how to help those teachers.”
“While the PHA will take that forward, can the Minister explain how that will work for teachers? Surely the teachers will be asked to provide the information to PHA, or will parents provide it through the teachers or go directly to the PHA? We need clear information. <BR /> <BR />The Minister allocated funding to manage the COVID response, with additional expenditure on hand sanitiser, additional cleaning and associated products, signage, teacher cover etc. We will not be long working through that, so I ask the Minister, alongside those principals, to consider how that will work. <BR /> <BR />The pressure on teachers will remain, even though the PHA will take on track and trace. Teachers will still have to provide solutions, options and advice to parents.”
“Those are their words. The principal went on to say:”
“We know that the PHA will now step in, but that principal went on to say that they have spent every evening and every weekend on this and are exhausted. The principal said that they are trying to follow the Department of Education and PHA guidance "to the letter" but there is:”
“I ask the Minister whether she can confirm how they were consulted before the guidelines were implemented. <BR /> <BR />Another post-primary-school principal outlined the challenges that their school faces:”
“— I will leave out the name so that I do not specify it —”
“On household contacts, the principal said:”
“The principal said that some politicians':”
“in the whole school. The principal confirmed:”
“That was Tuesday and Wednesday of this week. The principal continued:”
“One primary-school principal in the constituency that the Minister and I share sent me these words:”
“I know. <BR /> <BR />In advance of the recall, I contacted a number of principals to ask them how the back-to-school situation was going. I am not here to moan, which Mr Newton mentioned earlier; I am here to provide their voice. I asked the principals to give me some of their words and reflections. Some of this you will recognise, and it will back up what others have said today. <BR /> <BR />All the principals wanted me to make it clear that, while there has been such bad press about schools and the COVID situation, teachers and school leaders continue to prioritise pupil welfare. Teachers comply with clear and understandable communications. As others have said today, Minister, it comes down to this: it is clear and understandable communication, which has not been going to them, about which they have concerns.”
“I have five minutes, so I will not be taking interventions.”
“This Bill feels like my baby. I hope that you will let my baby take its next steps and that the Education Committee will look after it for me. I ask each of you to vote for the Integrated Education Bill to pass its Second Stage. Everyone gets to participate in integrated education. No one gets to dominate. Thank you.”
“I have not diluted what "integrated education" is, because the requirement in the Education Reform Order 1989 stands. I checked the legality of that. I checked it with the drafter and with the Bill Office. The only thing that I am changing about the 1989 order is to add "promote", so I do not see how it is possible that I have diluted the meaning. <BR /> <BR />Thank you for your patience, Mr Deputy Speaker. I really appreciate all the comments made today. When I met parties, I confirmed that, although I am passionate about integrated education, I want to ensure that legislation on it is good and inclusive. I thank the team in the Bill Office who helped get the Bill to Second Stage. I again pay tribute to Fiona McAteer and the team that worked to help me behind the scenes. We took a very in-depth look at integrated education.”
“<BR /> <BR />The independent review of education is to look at a single education system. The House is in trouble: if that happens, what will happen to the parental choice that so many Members mentioned? Not every sector has a fair and equal voice. If they did, 21% of children would not be turned away from their school of choice.”
“<BR /> <BR />As was said, the 2019 'Good Relations' report confirms that 21% of children do not get accepted to their first choice integrated school and are turned away. The Department holds no data on where those children end up going to school. If there is a commitment to supporting all sectors equally, how come there is data for maintained and controlled schools but not for integrated education? The data is missing. <BR /> <BR />The community conversation methodology has come to the fore and been used by the Education Authority. It gives the community a voice. When a new school is being planned, the current system uses the religious demographics of an area and empty desks. The community conversation turns that around and asks the community, "What do you want?", and there have been some successful community conversations.”
“Believe me: leaving it to the last plenary day before recess to bring forward Second Stage, so that it might get through before the end of the mandate, was not my plan. <BR /> <BR />The Department certainly does fund NICIE. However, the Department has only recently allowed NICIE to promote transformation as an option for schools. I believe that parents who want to send their children to an integrated school do not have a choice. The Minister talked about the Bill placing integrated education above other sectors, but the Department already places other sectors above integrated education. The fact that parents do not have an integrated education choice is proof of why the level of integrated education remains at 7%: it suits the Department for it to be that way.”
“We got the independent review of education into that agreement. During the negotiations, it was made very clear that the review would be bigger than Bengoa and was, because everyone has a vested interest in education, likely to cause more difficulty than health for the Assembly. As Mr O'Toole mentioned, our education system reflects our identity. <BR /> <BR />The Minister asked what the Bill covers. As far as I am concerned, nursery education is non-sectoral and therefore outside the Bill. <BR /> <BR />It may well be the fortieth anniversary of integrated education, but the Bill was held back when the Assembly was collapsed. Had there been the opportunity to introduce it three years ago, I would have done so.”
“Rather than a top-down approach — they felt that, unfortunately, that is what shared education was — they wanted a ground-up approach. That would start with schools sharing teachers, and, for example, the best maths teacher and the best English teacher teaching across campuses. The schools might then start sharing the cost of things like stationery. They would naturally evolve into an integrated state, and the community and schools would come together. It would have been lovely if that model had been used. Unfortunately, all those years ago, that model was not able to go forward. <BR /> <BR />New Decade, New Approach required a hard negotiation. As I said earlier, there is a civil servant who, if he happens to get wind of this debate, knows that he owes me a hat: the one that he is supposed to have eaten.”
“Going forward, the plan needed for our education is the independent review of education. Therefore, I am delighted that, after the negotiations for New Decade, New Approach, the DUP got on board. There has been significant investment in education. Education is really expensive, but, of course, we are always going to spend money on health and on our children. <BR /> <BR />The Minister talked about support for shared education. Absolutely, shared education is helping to break down barriers. I support sharing. It is a pity that the Fermanagh Trust model for shared education was not implemented. I met people from the Fermanagh Trust — my goodness, it was such a long time ago — and they talked about bringing schools together.”
“"Super-mixed" schools are available across Northern Ireland, and there are many wonderful "super-mixed" schools. I go back to Judge Treacy, who said that integrated schools are a "stand-alone concept". While people can use the word "integration", there is a process to follow if they want to integrate. I would absolutely welcome a school like Methody coming forward, because it could that so easily.”
“It is something that could be achieved in the future, but the Bill is not going to take away the other sectors. <BR /> <BR />The Minister confirmed that children being educated separately is something that we have and that the education system is complex. She talked about the reference to benign apartheid. She also said that natural integration happens in some schools, and she mentioned Methody. Absolutely; it does.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Carroll said that People Before Profit would prefer secular education. I respect that. He said that he would support the Bill and that he is happy to promote and resource integrated education. He talked about financial efficiency. I have to admit that the Bill is not about closing other schools to promote integrated education. We would much rather see schools coming together and the natural amalgamation and mixing that others have talked about. Financial efficiency happens to be one of the things that a lot of reports bring forward when they talk about integrated schools and the mixing of schools. You do not need to have separate schools, but, in the system that we have currently, we have various sectors and parents have choice, so financial efficiency is talked about.”
“I may not want to have transfer tests done, but the Bill accepts that, by including "different abilities", some integrated schools have a grammar stream, and that is it. I have therefore included that in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I am sorry that Mr Allister is not here to allow me to address that with him, but the Bill is not going to get rid of transfer tests. Integrated schools have told me that some of them want transfer tests and some do not. This definition, or meaning, of integrated education talks about differing abilities. That is not just about those who have a vocational outlook on life or special educational needs. Some of us have children who are academically gifted, but we still want them to go to an integrated school and not to a grammar school.”
“An integrated ethos is something that not everyone understands, and I hope that, through the Bill and our discussion of it, perhaps more understanding of what an integrated ethos is can be shared across the House. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister said that this was a determined assault on academic selection because I mentioned the term "different abilities". I have not said "all abilities". It is disappointing that Mr Allister is not here. To be honest, I would rather see academic selection out of schools — that is not anything to be hidden. However, because I took in-depth consultation and listened to people, I did not include that, because integrated schools are not against selection. Lagan College has a grammar stream, and Strangford College had a development proposal for a grammar scheme turned down, although it may be going back in.”
“I confirmed that, in many parts of Northern Ireland, there is no integrated school that parents can choose and that, in the areas in which there is an integrated school, such as mine, the post-primary is completely oversubscribed. <BR /> <BR />Ms Bailey said that she would prefer faith to be taken out of schools, but, at this stage, all schools are faith schools. She rightly said that integrated schools are about more than pupil numbers. That touched my heart, because it is why I got involved in integrated education. Integrated education is about the curriculum, culture, sport and the arts; it is all about ethos. Mr O'Toole mentioned that as well.”
“She confirmed that the Bill predated New Decade, New Approach and that the current education system is in trouble. She discussed the Department's appointments to GMI boards, which is something that I was not aware of. I will have to look into that. Thank you for that, Ms Bailey. She said that if we could start education again, we would not have the system that we have. However, she recognised that we cannot start from scratch and that we already have a system but said that the Bill helps to bring forward part of that system. She reminded the House that parental choice led to the Irish-medium and integrated sectors, but she recognised that not all parents have a choice. Many have only one choice in their area and, sometimes, the choice for integrated education is full.”
“Reform will take time, and, if we have the opportunity to tackle division, why would we not do it now? Mr O'Toole understands that the Bill and discussing education gets to who people are and what their identity is. <BR /> <BR />He asked something that I do not think I will be able to answer: how can those who are unable to go, or do not go, to an integrated school celebrate one another and themselves? That is something that I would love to see more of through the Assembly, perhaps, and the work of the Assembly or local councils. There is more to celebrate through our diversity than there is to keep us separate, but perhaps that is for a different occasion, not the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I thank Ms Bailey and the Green Party for their support.”
“I would rather see religion outside of school, but the issue is bigger than the Bill. I am not going to do that. I am not going to take religion out of schools because that really would kill the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Mr O'Toole said that 7% of children can be educated together, and, although more want to be, they cannot. He confirmed that schools, sectoral bodies and teachers are wonderful. I do not argue with him — they absolutely are. That is why I am in the House and am not a teacher. I do not know how teachers do it. He talked about the education system being at fault and about how it needs to be improved. I absolutely agree with that, which is why the independent review of education is coming forward. He talked about an incoherent education system.”
“Children should be educated together, but I want more than that. I want an integrated ethos, where children are integrated, not assimilated. As I said in my initial speech, the independent review of education will be like the Bengoa report. It will take years to implement, and, in the meantime, as I said during the New Decade, New Approach negotiations, the Integrated Education Bill will help integrated education to move forward. <BR /> <BR />I give absolute confirmation now on behalf of the Alliance Party that we will give the Education Minister full support for the delivery of the independent review. Why would we not? We wrote that provision and put it in New Decade, New Approach. Mr Stalford said that he is a religious person and that his religion came not through school but through home. I agree with him.”
“It has been five years since the independent review of integrated education. <BR /> <BR />I believe, absolutely, in strategic reform, but I do not believe that parental choice is being provided for now for integrated schools. The Member accused me of having "muddled thinking". I am not going to go down that road too much. I had an amazing drafter, who was able to go through the Bill word by word with me. I am just disappointed that a former Education Minister wants the House to vote against parental choice for integrated education and legislation to improve on that. <BR /> <BR />Christopher Stalford said quite a number of things with which I absolutely agree. In fact, in the House on other occasions, I have said that I agree with Christopher on a number of things, which will probably get me disciplined by the Alliance Party.”
“Of course people absolutely want to send their children to a good school. However, some of us consider that good schools are not just academically good but are about the holistic nature of the school and its ethos. The quality of integrated education means that all children, including a high number of mainstreamed special educational needs pupils, are all together in the one place. He discussed the strategic review of education, and he questioned the "special circumstances" referred to in clause 7. He asked, "Why not wait until the independent review of education concludes before bringing forward this Bill?". Integrated education cannot wait, and, to be honest, this debate will probably go forward to the independent review of education in order to give an outline of what parties think about a single education system.”
“He highlighted the increasing oversubscription of integrated schools and the 'Good Relations' report, which stated that 21% of children who had put down integrated education as their first preference were unable to get a place in an integrated school. He talked about the independent review of education and how some of the recommendations have gone forward while others have not. <BR /> <BR />Mr Stalford talked about giving preference to integrated education. I respond to that in the same way that I responded to Mr Butler: if we are not just talking about equality but equity, it is only right and proper that we support a sector that does not have the same level of support as others. <BR /> <BR />Mr Weir rightly talked about the quality of education rather than the sector.”
“Integrated education follows that as well. <BR /> <BR />You said that the Bill is the start, and I have to say that I agree with you. It has opened a conversation. It has opened up the ability for some of us to come across from our parties and say what we want to happen. It is not the end, and I know that, if the Bill goes through to the Education Committee, it definitely will not be the end. There will be a lot of discussions, and I fully expect that the Education Committee will have to extend the time for witnesses to come in and give evidence. <BR /> <BR />Mr Lyttle outlined the findings of many reports over the years that have defined the need for integrated education. He outlined the significant cost for our current education system, which we all know is under huge financial strain.”
“I would rather see a teacher's report that says, "Johnny, who sits in the corner, was an absolute pain when he came through the door, but, all of sudden, we've got him to the stage where he has passed his maths and English GCSEs, and — do you know what? — we've got him a vocational qualification, and he's going to be working as a joiner". That would be amazing. <BR /> <BR />You raised a concern about faith-based schools. I am a great believer in faith-based schools. I chose an integrated school for my daughter because it is a faith-based school. It happens to have all faiths. All schools in Northern Ireland are faith-based schools. All schools in Northern Ireland are required to have a Christian ethos. Religious education is a compulsory school subject. <BR /> <BR />Article 5(1) of the Education (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 stipulates:”
“Another young person could get to the stage where they have completed five GCSEs, and that would be an amazing achievement. We then have secondary schools. I talked earlier about the number of GCSEs that are achieved at those schools, and that is best that those pupils can achieve. Then, we have grammar schools that achieve wonderful exam results. <BR /> <BR />How do we measure the success of our young people's education? It comes back to this: if we measure it based on academic grades, some schools will do wonderfully. Another measurement of success could be the change in a child from the day that they enter the school until the day that they leave. It is a very difficult one. I do not believe that academic grades are the only way in which we can measure the success of a school.”
“<BR /> <BR />You were absolutely right when you said that young people are light years ahead of us. I have declared before in the House that my daughter was involved in the Secondary Students' Union of Northern Ireland (SSUNI). Those young people, who will probably be sitting in the House in the next 10 to 15 years, terrify me, because they are light years ahead of us. <BR /> <BR />You asked a key question: how do we measure the success of our young people's education? That is a very hard question for me to answer. As many Members will know, I am on the all-party group on disability. I have been to various schools that look after young people with special educational needs. You could have a young person in a class who, all of a sudden, can pay attention for an hour, and that would be an amazing achievement for that young person.”
“Hurling, yes. It is better than Gaelic. I come from an area where hurling is god. My daughter was playing hurley — not camogie — and she hurt another youngster at the integrated schools' cup, which was quite terrible. Hurling is in my lifeblood, so I cannot say anything. <BR /> <BR />Mr McNulty, just when I am talking about Gaelic games, you said that you were surprised that integrated education has not grown. It is hard for it to grow when it is so difficult to set up new schools, and transformation is not easy. As Ms Bailey said, parents have to remortgage their houses to set up a school. They have to bring forward development proposals, and they have to self-finance for the first number of years before the Department will recognise the school. You do not have to do that for controlled or maintained schools, so it is an uphill battle.”
“I agree with you: I have experience of a wonderful integrated school that is completely inclusive. When your daughter hurts another player on a hurley field, you get a bit scared.”
“Is the legislation necessary when we have the New Decade, New Approach commitment coming forward? I believe that it is. The reason that I say that is that the independent review of integrated education is five years old, as has been highlighted. Some of the recommendations have been taken forward — thank you for that, former Minister Weir — but not all of them. In fact, the clauses in the Bill address some of the recommendations that have not been brought forward by the Department. <BR /> <BR />Mr O'Dowd talked about identity not being neutral in integrated schools. I will not argue with you on that. I believe that integrated schools have a job to do to ensure that they are fully inclusive for everyone. That is why I have included the requirement that the ETI must inspect the ethos of integrated schools.”
“It is not about being offensive to any other sector; in fact, as others have said, if any school could not say that that is what they provide, I would be astonished. The Bill adds to the 1989 Order. <BR /> <BR />I absolutely understand what Mr O'Dowd meant when he said that religion should be separate from education. That is bigger than this Bill. When I spoke to the SDLP representatives and they asked me about that, I said, "I am not going there". That is far beyond integrated education. It is something that, perhaps, the independent review of education may consider. I was pressured by humanists to see whether I would put secularisation in the Bill, but I said no. This is about integrated education.”
“He asked about NICIE: it certainly receives a large budget to encourage and facilitate and, now, to promote. It is outside of the Department. He talked about the definition of integrated education being offensive. In my opening statement, I said that there were many schools that could recognise that definition and say that it would suit them. However, the 1989 Order is not replaced by the Bill. A school will still only be able to legally be called an integrated school if it has been established under that Order. It means, then, that I add to what the 1989 Order says. They have been through that process and they come to be called an integrated school. There is a definition of who they are, and the ETI can then inspect it.”
“Our parental choice for integrated education is not there. He talked about the money side of the promotion of integrated education. Money is already put into NICIE to promote integrated schools. I have to say that it has only been in more recent times that NICIE has been allowed to go into schools to talk about transformation. Certainly, it has been doing that after a school has decided to transform, but this is about promotion of transformation. The Integrated Education Fund helped to fund NICIE before that. The promotion of integrated education would help to remove the limitation on it so that we can finally see more than the 7%. <BR /> <BR />Mr O'Dowd said that integrated education has protection in law. I will not tell a former Minister of Education how to suck eggs, because he knows all about it.”
“I would rather that all schools had that integrated ethos, not just that people can go in through the door but, when they go in that door, they are not assimilated and there is an integrated ethos there. They will not be what that school is. I have spoken to many pupils who have been to very good controlled schools that are mixed. They tell me that they were not of the majority religion in that school and were not celebrated. That is the difference between integrated and controlled schools. They are amazing schools with amazing mixing, and that is fantastic, but we could do just a wee bit more. <BR /> <BR />The Member talked about parental choice. Where is the choice for parents who want to send their children to integrated schools? In our constituency, Strangford Integrated College turns away a full year group of children.”
“I made it clear when I was sitting at that table in Stormont Castle that I had already started the Integrated Education Bill, that work on it had already begun and that the long-term objectives would be the independent review of education; in fact, the footnote in the appendix is by my hand. I made it clear at that time, and there were no objections, that the Integrated Education Bill would be an interim measure to bring integrated education onto a level playing field with other sectors. <BR /> <BR />Mr Harvey said that state grammar schools and controlled schools were open to everyone. They are; I am not arguing about that. I spoke to Mr Stalford about this before.”
“Do you know what? If that helps to improve the legislation and make it better for integrated education, that is fine. I do not mention Irish-medium education in the Bill and kept it focused on integrated education, but, if we can improve something that could help other sectors, I will be happy with that. <BR /> <BR />Mr Harvey talked about 'New Decade, New Approach'. I thank you, Mr Harvey, because I looked around earlier to see who else in the Chamber was involved in the Programme for Government negotiations for 'New Decade, New Approach'. There were representatives of different parties there. I was told that, if I got the independent review of education into 'New Decade, New Approach', a civil servant would eat his hat. He still owes me that hat. That review is something that I wanted.”
“All of us in the House have committed to cross-departmental working and collaboration, so I do not understand what the concerns are about that. <BR /> <BR />Ms Brogan recognised the aspirations of the Bill — thank you very much — and said that she wanted to work on it in the Education Committee.”
“It is on a site that will never allow for the number of children that it needs attending it for it to be a sustainable school. It has two mobile huts in the middle of it. The roof of one has collapsed to the floor, but the school cannot move it away because it cannot get in a crane. It is a lovely school. It is talking about closing and moving to what, hopefully, will be a new school, potentially in mid-Down, that is being paid for by the Integrated Education Fund and parents. There is a process under way. We have an integrated school that does not have the full numbers, but it cannot have those numbers anyway because the site that it is on is very limited, although I absolutely love visiting there. <BR /> <BR />The Bill talks about public services coming together.”