Andrew Muir
North Down · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. As Minister, I am grateful to the Chair of the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee and to Members from all sides of the Chamber for their consideration of the Bill and their contributions to the debate, which have been valuable and useful.”
“I will write to you with regard to your query. <BR /> <BR />The other issue, as I said, is reporting pollution incidents so that they can be effectively investigated. There is a duty on everyone to do that promptly.”
“Aquaculture provides real economic opportunities, and the Bill will help ensure that those opportunities are realised responsibly without compromising the environment. Importantly, the Bill includes transitional provisions so that existing licences can continue seamlessly as aquaculture licences, with their conditions unchanged.”
“That is not about being punitive for its own sake; it is about ensuring that the legal framework reflects the true value of our natural resources and the importance of protecting them for future generations.”
“<BR /> <BR />On strengthening the regulation of inland waters, the Bill modernises long-standing powers under the Fisheries Act (Northern Ireland) 1966, ensuring that they are fit for today's environmental and industry challenges. That matters because fisheries management today goes far beyond simply catching fish.”
“<BR /> <BR />A full regulatory impact assessment of the financial impact has been completed. It concluded that the Bill does not introduce significant new financial burdens and that any costs are outweighed by the long-term benefits.”
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“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will address the two aspects of the motion. One is the earmarked funding, and the other is inheritance tax. I will start with inheritance tax, because it has been the issue of last night, of today and of recent weeks. As Members will know, the issues raised in the motion are a cause of significant concern and uncertainty not only for our farming community but for me as Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. I spoke at the UFU rally last night, and the size of the turnout and the passion expressed showed how deep the concern is. The worry about it is significant.”
“If the Member were in any way aware of the issues in relation to ammonia, he would know that I inherited a situation in which, as was recently found by the Office for Environmental Protection, the Department had acted unlawfully. I am working through the issues. <BR /> <BR />If we have a genuine desire to turn around the UK's decision on inheritance tax, we need to work together and have a unity of purpose. If we divide, we will not be able to pursue a clear cause to overturn the decision. I wish that we could all come together in unity in the Chamber and in society on what has been proposed by the UK Government.”
“Does the Member agree that, during COVID, the farmers stepped up and made sure that our families in Northern Ireland were fed, that they were a key and critical part of the fight against COVID, and that it is about time that the UK Government recognised the role that they play and how critical they are?”
“With Members' support, I will ensure that, once I receive the finalised CVO review, my Department, with the resources at its disposal, will put the current spread of TB into reverse and, in partnership with the industry and wider stakeholders, finally set Northern Ireland on the path to the eradication of this devastating disease.”
“<BR /> <BR />It has been clear to me since becoming Minister that addressing bovine tuberculosis is one of the most difficult challenges facing our cattle-farming sector and my Department. The key priority is to work with the CVO and his colleagues to put in place a deliverable and affordable set of measures that seek to halt the upward disease trend and the financial pressure that that creates for farm families and my limited departmental resources. <BR /> <BR />Difficult decisions will need to be taken. I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of the House today that those decisions must be based on the best scientific evidence available, and they will be. I am committed to working with Members, farmers, vets and all our stakeholders on the challenges ahead.”
“Members and industry have frequently raised with me the role played by wildlife in the maintenance and spread of TB here. Indeed, the amendment to today's motion, which my party will support, reflects that. As Members will appreciate, strong views are generated on both sides of this very emotive debate. In parallel with the CVO's review, my officials are working to address the issues raised in the October 2023 judicial review decision, which overturned the previous Minister's proposal for a non-selective cull of badgers. When that work concludes, I will consider the finalised advice carefully before advising Members in the new year on any preferred way forward.”
“Whilst effective for herd level surveillance, its lower sensitivity results in individual cattle with TB going undetected. Many in the Chamber will know what I am talking about. Again, the scientific evidence points to the need for increased use of supplementary interferon gamma blood tests. Such extra testing comes with additional cost, not least the pain of slaughtering more cattle, certainly in the shorter term. Given the high disease rates across Northern Ireland at present, I encourage all farmers to review thoroughly their measures for keeping TB out of their herds and to minimise spread if their herd is suffering from a TB breakdown. There are excellent sources of advice available, including on my Department's website. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to wildlife.”
“I am acutely aware that there are strongly held and often opposing views among stakeholders on how best to proceed, but I believe that all stakeholders can and need to work together. <BR /> <BR />On biosecurity, further scientific evidence also points to the predominant spread of TB between cattle themselves. There are elements of our farming practices that are clearly unsuited to disease control, such as fragmentation of our farm holdings and the extremely high number of cattle movements that occur throughout Northern Ireland each year. The high TB incidence affecting our dairy herds may also reflect the intensification of that sector. <BR /> <BR />Members will also be aware of the limitations of the tuberculin skin test.”
“I have already mentioned the unacceptably high level of disease currently circulating here and the challenge of funding additional disease control measures in a constrained public finance environment. <BR /> <BR />We must also recognise that efforts to control bovine TB here and in other parts of the UK and Ireland date back to the 1950s, yet the disease persists. It is clear from the behavioural science, supported by experiences elsewhere in the world, that bovine TB eradication efforts cannot succeed without the proactive engagement of all stakeholders. There must be shared ownership of any plan to eradicate bovine TB, with meaningful collective responsibility and a recognition of the skills and knowledge that each stakeholder brings to the table. That is crucial in changing the culture surrounding bovine TB here.”
“My Department commissioned an independent strategic review of TBEP under the auspices of the Strategic Investment Board. The SIB report reiterated the importance of working in partnership with stakeholders and the need for me and my Department to have access to independent scientific advice when formulating TB policy. I therefore look forward to considering the CVO's review of our current approach and taking into account the SIB's review of TBEP to ensure that, as we move forward, correct stakeholder structures are put in place to have the best chance of success. <BR /> <BR />As I am quite sure Members are aware, addressing the endurance of bovine TB in Northern Ireland will not be easy or straightforward, and there are many challenges that we must collectively address if we are to finally set Northern Ireland on a path to eradication.”
“The TB strategic partnership group spent two years engaging with vets, scientists and farmers to develop a thorough and holistic package of measures designed to address all the factors that contribute to the spread and endurance of this difficult disease. Learning from best practice elsewhere, including places as far away as New Zealand and Australia, the TB strategic partnership group drew upon the best scientific advice available, including behavioural science, to support the Department with a set of recommendations that, following two further public consultations, formed the basis of our current bovine TB eradication strategy. <BR /> <BR />As some Members will be aware, the tenure of TBEP members drew to a close in 2023.”
“In the motion, Members have noted the important role played by members of the TB Eradication Partnership over its tenure from 2018 until the end of 2023. I agree, and I highlight the fact that the group provided valuable advice to the Department and to my predecessor and was an important conduit through which the Department could engage on the detail of specific TB policy matters with stakeholders. I have also had the opportunity to meet a number of former members of TBEP during my time as Minister, and I again take the opportunity to thank all TBEP members for their work during that time. <BR /> <BR />I also record my appreciation to the members of the TB strategic partnership group, which preceded TBEP. This is the Department of acronyms, folks.”
“He has also spoken with colleagues in neighbouring jurisdictions, and I thank everyone who has given their time to share their thoughts and knowledge with Brian and his colleagues. The CVO's review is nearing completion, and I will brief members of the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on its content and approach next week.”
“That also curtails my ability to allocate more of my scarce resources to tackling TB. Indeed, it is likely that additional TB measures may cost more in the short term, both from a resource perspective and due to finding more disease on farms, before we begin to see a more medium-term reduction in disease and expenditure. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge that more needs to be done, which is why I asked Brian Dooher, after taking up his role as Chief Veterinary Officer earlier this year, to undertake a thorough review of our approach to tackling bovine TB, including the recommendations in the Department's 2022 bovine tuberculosis eradication strategy. The CVO has engaged widely as part of that process with farmers and their representatives, veterinarians, epidemiologists, environmental representatives and agricultural processors.”
“Indeed, over 20,000 cattle have been removed from farms in Northern Ireland in the past 12 months. That has a direct environmental impact, and it has placed those farm businesses that are suffering from the loss of their cattle in a most challenging position. The slaughter of cattle for the control of TB results in a direct loss in farm income, especially for dairy farms, and has a detrimental impact on the genetics through the loss of key breeding stock. I recognise that, and I am fully aware of the need to take action. <BR /> <BR />The high disease rates also place significant pressure on my Department's budget. Last year, the cost of delivering our TB programme was over £55 million, with the compensation bill accounting for over £36 million. My officials advise that this year's costs could be in the region of £60 million.”
“Our bovine TB programme is essential in underpinning that trade, as it provides the necessary assurance to our domestic and international markets that our cattle and cattle products are safe. Indeed, our programme is approved by the European Commission, and it forms the basis of our access to trade cattle and cattle products throughout the single market. <BR /> <BR />I share Members' concerns about the disappointingly high levels of TB across Northern Ireland. Herd incidences here have remained above 10% since 2022. I am also acutely conscious of the more recent increase in animal incidence, which now stands at over 1%. That has risen from 0·55% at the end of 2014. That points towards large breakdowns and more cattle being slaughtered for disease control.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Members for tabling this important motion. Since coming into post at the start of the year, I have had numerous opportunities to hear at first hand the difficulties from a financial and well-being perspective that are faced by farm businesses that are suffering from TB in their herds. I have heard too often about the toll that TB breakdowns continue to have on our farmers' mental health. As Members have noted, cattle farming is an extremely important part of the Northern Ireland economy, and I value it. The value of trade in our bovine products is approaching £3 billion each year, with our processing sector employing around 8,000 people.”
“I have tasked officials to review SORPI. I understand that that review will be concluded by the end of the year, and I will then take it forward. I will be looking for the support of Members. For me to be able to remove the separate regulatory regime for Northern Ireland Water, I will need support from Members in the Assembly. I am very clear that NI Water pumping sewage into our rivers, lakes and loughs is not acceptable, and it needs to end.”
“I am the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, and I am focused on the entire remit of my Department. I have consistently been on the record about the arrangement with Northern Ireland Water, known as "SORPI", which puts Northern Ireland Water in a separate regulatory regime compared with others. I have made clear the need to call time on that. It is not fit for purpose, and I have asked officials to review it. It is not acceptable that NI Water is treated differently as a polluter compared with everyone else, and I am working to address that.”
“Ultimately, that sits with me. It is for me to bring decisions to the Executive and then to the Assembly. I have commissioned the process to move this forward, but it will come back to me and will be for me to determine a way forward. The Member is aware of the wording of the New Decade, New Approach commitment. It relates to climate change legislation, which is something that I also seek to progress. <BR /> <BR />There has been no mixed messaging from me. I am very clear that I believe in having stronger environmental governance. I also believe in an independent environmental protection agency. What is more, I am determined to do something constructive about it.”
“I am determined that we chart a better course in tackling those issues, which will probably be aired further in the Chamber today, given some of the motions in the Order Paper. We need to find a way forward, and we need to be conscious of the legal framework and the recently published report of the Office for Environmental Protection.”
“The Member outlines the issue of air quality and ammonia in Northern Ireland and how my Department, as a statutory consultee, is replying to the relevant planning authorities on that. I am aware of those concerns. <BR /> <BR />When I took on this ministerial office in February, I inherited a number of challenges, one of which is the issue that the Member has outlined. I grasped the issue and have been convening ministerial round tables to consider a better way forward. I am chairing those round tables. We had a meeting last week, and we will have a meeting in January, which will be to consider, primarily, the issue of replacement buildings. <BR /> <BR />I am committed to finding a better way forward, because the current system is not working for our environment or for farmers in Northern Ireland.”
“I am aware of the Member's Bill and am working to engage constructively with the Member on it. There are lots of good elements in the Bill, and we talked about those recently. I believe that we can work towards introducing the Bill in this mandate. As the Member knows, we have a multi-party Executive. It is an arranged marriage that has brought us together, and I need to bring people in the Executive with us. I am committed to doing that, not to grandstanding on the issue.”
“A key issue is how we work together, particularly in central government and local government, to address those issues. It is key that we look at that. The next step of the review of environmental governance will give us the opportunity to do that. From looking at previous reviews, it is apparent that there is a need for collaboration on those issues. The current review will, hopefully, provide a way forward whereby we will have an improved way of dealing with the issues that the Member has outlined.”
“I am on the record as having said, time and again, that I believe in having an independent environmental protection agency. That is my belief and my view. I am looking to improve environmental governance in Northern Ireland in the time ahead. By appointing an experienced and respected panel, I have taken the issue to another level: it is about doing it. With the greatest respect, I say that the SDLP reviewed that previously, and it went nowhere. I am trying to take it somewhere.”
“That is entirely untrue, Matthew, and you know that. You know that I am firmly committed to the environment in Northern Ireland. You know that I stand very strongly in support of our manifesto. However, I face significant challenges in this job, one of which is about how to bring people with us and improve our environment together. That is what I am firmly committed to doing. This is a very strong statement from me about working with people and trying to improve environmental governance in Northern Ireland.”
“The list of organisations that the panel will engage with will include youth groups in Northern Ireland, such as, for example, the Northern Ireland Youth Forum and the Young Farmers' Clubs of Ulster. It is important that young people's voices are heard in relation to this, and that is what the panel will be doing in the time ahead.”
“It is not a duplication: it is a genuine attempt to ensure that there is not duplication and that we consider a better way forward. I am listening to people, and I get the concerns around environmental issues in Northern Ireland. Farmers are the custodians of our countryside, and they are doing an excellent job. There are many examples of that across Northern Ireland. We all know that we need to do better, and that is what this is about: it is about trying to do things together. We would do well to listen a bit more in Northern Ireland, and this is an attempt to do that.”
“It will be for the panel to come back with recommendations. Members will know that NIEA performs various functions. I am very conscious of the good work that NIEA does, and I expressed my thanks to its officials in my statement because I am very grateful for the excellent job that they do. However, we need to consider what any future arrangements will involve and how that will interface with NIEA. The panel will tease that out in the time ahead. I am not going to prescribe exactly how I feel that NIEA should perform, because there are other environmental governance functions in Northern Ireland beyond NIEA that we will want to consider.”
“The Member touches on the importance of setting up the panel. That is why I am taking this approach so that the public can engage with the panel and have their views heard. I am keen to do that, because this is a genuine attempt to ensure that people's issues are heard and that their desires for improving environmental governance can shape the way forward. I am genuinely committed to doing that and I am making a real attempt to try to move the issue forward.”
“I am taking that forward separately, because one can walk and chew gum at the same time. I have asked officials to review the statement of regulatory principles and intent (SORPI), which has been the arrangement in place for NI Water since 2007, when it was founded. I am on the record as saying that I do not believe that that statement is fit for purpose and that we need to call time on SORPI. I want to move to a situation where, in a regulatory context, NI Water is treated like any other polluter in Northern Ireland, and I am working on that as well.”
“In considering members for the panel, we had to look at the different expertise that was required. It was not a public appointment process, because it is a very short, focused piece of work that requires expertise. Those were the people whom I appointed, and I believe that they will do an excellent job.”
“<BR /> <BR />I come here, as the Minister, looking for increased and strengthened environmental governance. I do not shy away from it, and that is why it is important that it is done.”
“A number of issues can be teased out from that. One is public trust and confidence. That is where the independence point arises in how the body would be structured and how you would ensure that it genuinely was independent. Some people may say to me that other bodies across the UK, Ireland and Europe are independent, yet they are under the direction of Ministers, so when you tease it out a bit more, you find that the consideration of the issue is a bit more detailed. <BR /> <BR />The other point relates to the body's ability to take action to deal with environmental issues and being able to have the confidence to speak out on the issues of the day. The chair of the Office for Environmental Protection was on the radio this morning debating the water quality report, and that was a constructive contribution to the issue.”
“That is for the panel to engage with people on and to consider.”
“I decided to ask the individuals to serve on the panel. I believe that they bring appropriate expertise on academia, the environment and agriculture. I think that they will do a very good job, and I am grateful to them for stepping forward to serve. The NIEA is part of my Department. I am proud of the work that it does, and capable individuals work there. <BR /> <BR />Part of the issue in any consideration of an independent environmental protection agency is resourcing. That is crucial, because it also feeds into the structure of the organisation. You could set up an independent body, but, essentially, the funding could then be determined as part of Budget rounds and stuff like that. That could also be a consideration when thinking about its effectiveness. That is why we need proper consideration of how anything will be resourced.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hear the concerns around that, and that is why I am taking action on it. I hope that people will see it for what it is, which is a genuine attempt to try to improve environmental governance in Northern Ireland. I could have come to the Assembly and said that I am setting up an independent environmental protection agency tomorrow, but what about the details of it? What would its powers be? How would it be funded? Where would the accountability measures for it be? It is also important that we engage with society on those issues so that we can bring forward very clear proposals that would have the support of society in Northern Ireland, because we need to work together on those issues.”
“The Member touched upon the important issue of the complexity of the landscape that we are in. We have the Office for Environmental Protection, the NIEA, the climate commissioner, who will come on board, and the just transition commission. That is why it is important that we give that matter careful consideration. <BR /> <BR />Many people come to me and say that they want an independent environmental protection agency. My support for that is clearly on the record. What I have not heard, however, is exactly what its functions should be, what it should do and how it would fit into the way forward for the environmental governance landscape. That is the key issue, and I am establishing the panel so that we can consider the landscape that we are in and where we want to take things.”
“The stakeholder reference group still has to be established. We will want to make sure that relevant views are considered as part of that, and the panel has already defined a number of groups with whom it will want to engage. Of course, the panel will be open to further engagement.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I believe in an independent environmental protection agency, and I am on the record in that regard. This is about a genuine attempt to improve environmental governance in Northern Ireland. I am setting up an independent panel so that we can look at how we can improve environmental governance. I am open to whatever recommendations it comes back with. I will be surprised if it does not come back with a recommendation for an independent environmental protection agency, and, if it does, it may be considered. Let me be clear: the review is a genuine attempt to move this forward. Once the report comes back, I will give it due consideration and bring it swiftly to the Executive and then to the Assembly.”
“In closing, as I have said many times, there are no quick fixes for the significant environmental challenges that we face today, and environmental governance is no different. However, rest assured that I am fully committed to strengthening environmental governance in Northern Ireland and, by doing so, improving public confidence in our governance arrangements and, ultimately, reducing our environmental degradation. I hope that this announcement will be welcomed by Members, as its outworking will provide up-to-date and robust evidence to support the preferred option. That will allow us to progress this work with credibility and confidence. I will, of course, update Members when the environmental governance review has concluded and following Executive consideration.”
“Delivering that review will require the independent panel to engage with relevant key stakeholders, including, of course, the OEP, and the process will be confirmed in due course. My officials will support the work of the panel in an administrative capacity. The terms of reference for the panel’s work and how people can engage with it will be published later today. I have asked the panel to produce an interim report by spring 2025, and the review will be completed by summer of next year. Following my consideration of its recommendations, I intend to identify a preferred way forward, which I will take to the Executive so that we can reach agreement on any proposed new arrangements before they are presented to the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />In taking this forward, I am mindful of the commitment contained in 'New Decade, New Approach':”
“Together, they will use their experience and independent expertise to take forward a short, focused review of environmental governance in Northern Ireland. It will include a brief review of current arrangements in Northern Ireland, which will be supported by the Department’s initial scoping exercise of the environmental governance arrangements that are in place across the UK and Ireland, so that they can take lessons from the various approaches that have been adopted by others; taking forward a call for evidence and engaging with interested parties and stakeholders to understand views and opinions and identify best practice in related work areas from other parts of the UK, Ireland or elsewhere; exploring options to improve environmental governance; and consideration of the linkages and interdependencies between the environmental governance being considered and other functions and business needs in DAERA and other relevant organisations.”
“She is a senior lecturer in European politics at Queen's University and has considerable knowledge of environmental governance in post-Brexit Northern Ireland. Dr Gravey will be assisted by Diane Ruddock, who has now retired from the National Trust as external affairs manager, and John McCallister, who is a member of the Ulster Farmers' Union (UFU) and provides a wealth of experience of the agriculture industry.”
“The estimated cost, deliverability and time frames for implementation of each option will also need to be considered. <BR /> <BR />The independent panel will lead a call for evidence on improving environmental governance in Northern Ireland and will use information gathered from the process, along with other relevant factors and research, to inform its recommendations. The panel will provide its independent recommendations to the Department on the basis of its assessment and findings, and I will not seek to influence those in any way. A stakeholder reference group will be established to support the work of the panel, and membership of the group will be confirmed in due course. <BR /> <BR />Members will want to know a bit more about the membership of the panel. Dr Viviane Gravey will chair the panel.”
“There is clearly a need to consider the substantive issues involved in moving to a more robust model of environmental governance, and I am keen to obtain an independent view to ensure that the best possible outcomes can be achieved. <BR /> <BR />I am therefore pleased to announce that I have appointed an independent panel with appropriate experience and expertise that will oversee a review of current environmental governance arrangements in Northern Ireland and provide recommendations for improvement for my consideration, including on how to enhance scrutiny, accountability and public confidence. They may contain proposals for establishing an independent environmental protection agency in Northern Ireland, including the potential shape, policy and legal responsibility of such an organisation.”
“That has led to growing concerns and frustrations among a number of groups that feel that more needs to be done. I accept that. <BR /> <BR />I am therefore committed to bringing forward proposals for improving environmental governance in Northern Ireland. I am keen for such proposals to reflect a thorough exploration of models that would deliver improved and more independent environmental governance than what is currently in place. In order to improve Members' and the public's confidence in our environmental governance arrangements, I want to ensure that that is done right. I therefore do not plan to rush the decisions on such an important and complex matter.”
“The overall response rate of 37 to the 2015 consultation was relatively low, but 26 — 70% — of the respondents were in favour of an independent agency being created. Much has changed since the 2015 consultation, including the formation of DAERA on 8 May 2016, when the Department of the Environment's functions were largely transferred to that Department. <BR /> <BR />More importantly, perhaps, public understanding of and opinion on environmental issues has changed substantially as a result of increased concerns about environmental degradation and climate change. For a variety of reasons, not least the absence of Ministers and the Assembly, competing priorities and resourcing constraints, there has been little movement on establishing an independent environmental protection agency.”
“of the Act. When the commissioner's office is established, we will need to work with it to understand the governance role that it might play in our environment and how it will interact with the work of the OEP. <BR /> <BR />I will explain the background to the creation of an independent environmental protection agency (IEPA). The environmental governance landscape is already complex, and there are a range of options for how it could be improved. That could include the creation of an independent environmental protection agency. Members will be aware of a number of reviews that were carried out in the past on the need for an independent environmental protection agency. The most recent was a 2015 consultation led by the Department of the Environment that sought views from the public and from organisations.”
“From 2022, we have also seen the extension of the role of the Office for Environmental Protection to include Northern Ireland. As Members will know, the OEP provides an environmental oversight function previously undertaken by the European Commission. It is tasked with holding government to account for the proper implementation of environmental law and has recently issued a number of reports to do exactly that, including one just today. It is important to recognise, however, that taking action against individuals or private businesses remains the responsibility of the NIEA and other enforcement agencies. <BR /> <BR />Section 50 of the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 requires the Executive Office to establish an independent office to be known as the Northern Ireland Climate Commissioner (NICC). The commissioner's functions are:”