Andrew Muir
North Down · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. As Minister, I am grateful to the Chair of the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee and to Members from all sides of the Chamber for their consideration of the Bill and their contributions to the debate, which have been valuable and useful.”
“I will write to you with regard to your query. <BR /> <BR />The other issue, as I said, is reporting pollution incidents so that they can be effectively investigated. There is a duty on everyone to do that promptly.”
“Aquaculture provides real economic opportunities, and the Bill will help ensure that those opportunities are realised responsibly without compromising the environment. Importantly, the Bill includes transitional provisions so that existing licences can continue seamlessly as aquaculture licences, with their conditions unchanged.”
“That is not about being punitive for its own sake; it is about ensuring that the legal framework reflects the true value of our natural resources and the importance of protecting them for future generations.”
“<BR /> <BR />On strengthening the regulation of inland waters, the Bill modernises long-standing powers under the Fisheries Act (Northern Ireland) 1966, ensuring that they are fit for today's environmental and industry challenges. That matters because fisheries management today goes far beyond simply catching fish.”
“<BR /> <BR />A full regulatory impact assessment of the financial impact has been completed. It concluded that the Bill does not introduce significant new financial burdens and that any costs are outweighed by the long-term benefits.”
The complete record
Every one of 4,733 lines we hold for Andrew Muir, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 65 of 95.
“Contrary to the core offence of theft under the Theft Act, the new offences in this Bill will not require the prosecution to prove that the person taking or detaining the pet did so with the intention of permanently depriving its owner. The overarching intention is for the Bill to encourage the courts to recognise the particular impact on the welfare of the animal when deciding the penalties. Therefore, the maximum penalty aligns with other serious animal welfare offences in the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011. There will be an option to consider whether to use this legislation, once it is enacted, or the Theft Act. That will be decided when considering the offence. <BR /> <BR />Hopefully, I have given some clarity and the House can agree that we proceed in this manner.”
“With regard to the comments from Jim Allister, as I have said, there is an opportunity for us to legislate from this. I will take every opportunity that I can, as Minister, to safeguard the welfare of animals, and, hopefully, we can take the opportunity presented today. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister asked how the Bill interacted with the Theft Act. To clarify, stealing a pet is already a criminal offence under the Theft Act (Northern Ireland) 1969, as Mr Allister outlined. Offenders prosecuted under that legislation face a sentence of up to 10 years' imprisonment; more if it includes burglary or robbery. Theft deals with the deprivation of property, not the welfare of the stolen animal. It does not recognise the distress and anxiety that an animal suffers when it is taken by strangers.”
“I thank the stakeholders for their engagement. Obviously, there was no consultation on this because of the way in which the legislation was drafted, but the Department has given a commitment to do that engagement before commencement. We think that that is key.”
“The Bill, as it has been framed, has very much taken a reasonability attitude towards that. We know that there are many people in the House and in society who feed other people's cats. The legislation is about giving us powers to deal with more egregious elements, but there are flexibilities in law in such reasonability clauses. <BR /> <BR />John Blair spoke a bit about the reality that pets are sentient animals, and said that the legislation should take that into account. That is important.”
“<BR /> <BR />Nicola Brogan spoke about all-island issues and the benefits that would be associated with being able to make our own bespoke legislation. We need to recognise the benefits of North/South and east-west cooperation. As I said, ideally we would have done this through primary legislation, and it is my desire that we do that in the time ahead, but this opportunity presented itself to us, so, hopefully, we can do this now and also look towards primary legislation in the future. The point about the microchipping of cats was also raised. That is an important point that I will look to address. <BR /> <BR />Tom Buchanan asked about the feeding of cats and whether that falls within the scope of this legislation. The guidance that I have states:”
“I will be looking at what we can do over the time ahead, given the legislative time frame and resources that we have, but I get the concerns around that. It is something that I am actively looking at. <BR /> <BR />Patsy McGlone talked about the police and resourcing, which is an important issue. It is an issue that affects every Minister. Essentially, if we agree the legislation and it passes through the Palace of Westminster, it will add to the toolbox of powers for the police to act in that regard. That can only be of benefit. He also raised good points about the microchipping of dogs and the different databases. That is something that we will explore in the time ahead in the wider sphere of animal welfare.”
“The issue for me was about the time that was presented to us: should we do this now or should we wait for primary legislation? The reality is that, by the time that we scope out, consult on and develop the legislation, it could be a number of years before it is in place, so it is important to grasp the opportunity now to have this in law. I, as Minister, have a lot of ambition for legislation, but I am not going to be thran when it comes to getting things done. If a legislative consent motion presents itself as an opportunity for us to legislate on an issue in Northern Ireland, I am going to take that opportunity. <BR /> <BR />Another issue that was raised was the microchipping of cats. A number of Members spoke about the benefits associated with that. I am exploring that with officials.”
“I thank all the Members who contributed to the debate. It has been wide-ranging, and good points have been made, which really highlights the importance of animal welfare to not just us but our constituents. It is my hope that the legislation will be introduced for our constituents who are animal lovers, so that we demonstrate that we value our animals and that we will work together for the benefit of animal welfare. <BR /> <BR />The Chair of the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee outlined a couple of points. I read over the weekend the useful deliberation that the Committee had on the matter. One point that was raised was the comparison between legislating through a legislative consent motion and primary legislation. That was something that I gave consideration to.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clauses 5 and 6 set out the territorial extent of the Bill and arrangements for commencement. If the Bill receives Royal Assent, the provisions to create a new pet abduction offence in Northern Ireland will not come into force until the introduction of a commencement order by my Department. <BR /> <BR />That concludes my overview of the Bill. It is a short, simple Bill, but its implications will be far-reaching in protecting animals and their owners. It shows that we will not tolerate the abduction of cats and dogs and the value that we place on them. It shows that we understand the needs of animals, giving them a voice in the most powerful way possible by changing the law to protect them. I hope that the legislative consent motion (LCM) will enjoy your support. Accordingly, I commend the motion to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />At the moment, the Bill covers only cats and dogs, but it has enabling powers so that it can be amended to cover other animal species if the need arises. That is set out in clause 3, but the power is, in some ways, limited. My Department must first consider that animals of the species concerned are kept as a pet and that there is evidence of a significant number of or rise in cases of unlawful taking or detaining. Any legislation to extend the offence to other animals must also be considered by the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Clause 4 provides for a consequential amendment to the Magistrates' Courts (Northern Ireland) Order 1981, with the effect that a defendant in Northern Ireland charged with a summary offence under clauses 1 or 2 cannot claim trial by jury.”
“<BR /> <BR />The clauses also address the fact that pet theft and abduction do not currently have a unique identifier in crime data sets, which is why it is so difficult to identify the number of pets stolen every year. In many police records, it is impossible to distinguish between the theft of an inanimate object and that of an animal. Of course, a dog or a cat may be taken as part of a burglary or robbery, but the fact that an animal was involved will not be mentioned in all police records. Creating the two new offences of the abduction of dogs or cats will introduce new, unique identifiers that will help with the recording of such crime and help us to see the true extent of it.”
“I appreciate that that is lower than what is currently available in the case of theft of property, including animals, under the Theft Act (Northern Ireland) 1969, which is 10 years in prison. However, as the new offences are centred on the impact on the animal, I consider that it is right that the maximum penalty aligns with other serious animal welfare offences under the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, which also sets a maximum of five years' imprisonment. For context, the maximum penalty for child abduction in Northern Ireland is seven years' imprisonment. I do not think that it would be appropriate to have a greater penalty for the abduction of pets.”
“Therefore, no offence is committed where a dog or cat is taken from a household or detained, if it entered that household after the two people had started living together. <BR /> <BR />Finally, there is the fallback defence of "reasonable excuse", to ensure that we do not inadvertently criminalise well-meaning behaviour. The term "reasonable excuse" is deliberately not defined in the Bill in order to give courts flexibility to determine on a case-by-case basis whether the taking or detention of the animal is unlawful. For example, the defence may be available in a scenario in which a neighbour has taken in an injured pet to check on its welfare. <BR /> <BR />The maximum sentence attached to cat or dog abduction in the Bill is up to five years in prison, a fine or both.”
“That defence is also intended to protect police officers or district council officials, who may have authority to seize dogs under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. <BR /> <BR />There is also a defence in relation to unaccompanied or stray dogs, such that a person charged with the offence of detaining a dog could show that they complied with the current notification requirements under the Dogs (Northern Ireland) Order 1983 and made reasonable steps to comply with the requirements for the collection of the dog. That would also be relevant to a farmer who detains an unaccompanied dog that has been worrying his livestock. In such cases, should the farmer comply with all the legal requirements, they cannot be prosecuted for detaining the dog. The Bill does not seek to criminalise cases involving domestic disputes between partners.”
“It limits the offence of cat abduction to the taking of cats to take account of the different lifestyles of the animals, recognising the fact that, unlike dogs, cats roam without their owners, enjoy mixing in other households and probably get fed at every house in the street. <BR /> <BR />A number of safeguards and exemptions are set out in the clauses. That is because the Bill is intended to deal only with unscrupulous people who abduct a dog or cat; it is not intended to criminalise genuinely kind behaviour to cats and dogs by people who are not their owners. It is a defence for the person to show that they had lawful authority to take or detain a dog: for example, in instances when the animal is under the control of a vet, dog walker or pet sitter.”
“While there has not been time to carry out public consultation prior to introducing the new offences, I believe that they are likely to be welcomed by the public; indeed, as the Bill progressed through Parliament, pet organisations and welfare charities were positive about and welcoming of the measures in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I turn to the details of the Bill, specifically as it will apply in Northern Ireland. Clauses 1 and 2 will create two specific offences of cat abduction and dog abduction. The Bill will make it an offence for a dog or cat to be taken from a person who has lawful control of the animal. In the case of dogs, the Bill will also make it an offence to detain the pet.”
“The Bill would mean that the abduction of a pet will not be treated the same as the theft of a television, mobile phone or power tool, all of which can easily be replaced. They may be worth a lot of money, and replacing them may be inconvenient, but the item itself is not affected by the crime, whereas a pet is. It is important to note that the intention of the Bill is to allow the courts to consider the emotional impact on the owner and the impact on the welfare of the animal when deciding the penalty. I therefore support the creation of a bespoke criminal offence of pet abduction in Northern Ireland.”
“It is important to note that each of those offences may have involved one or more dogs and that the actual number of dogs taken may, therefore, be higher. Unfortunately, there is no similar information for cat theft. Whilst the number of dogs abducted in Northern Ireland is relatively small, for each family that has a dog taken, the impact is significant.”
“That is why it is so distressing for owners when one of their beloved pets is abducted or detained in what is a cruel crime. While information on the volume of pet thefts in Northern Ireland is not clear, responses to freedom of information requests to the police indicated that the number of recorded burglary, robbery and theft offences where the property was described as a dog was on average 35 per year.”
“I am grateful for the opportunity to move the motion and speak about the Pet Abduction Bill, which creates new offences of abduction of dogs and cats. The Pet Abduction Bill is a private Member's Bill supported by the UK Government that is currently progressing through Parliament. It applies to England and Northern Ireland, and its clauses relate to devolved matters. For that reason, I seek the Assembly's legislative consent to the Bill's extending to Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Before I get into the detail of the provisions, however, I emphasise the Bill's importance. I fully understand how important dogs and cats are to their owners in Northern Ireland. They are part of families, and they provide support and comfort when we are down, as well as companionship and joy.”
“Planning in Northern Ireland is a key issue. It sits primarily with the Minister for Infrastructure. Last week, we talked about planning with regard to climate action and the need to ensure that we can progress planning applications for renewables. I am keen to explore that with the Minister because, ultimately, the responsibility for that lies with him. We also need to ensure that planning is sustainable. That is one of the issues that we need to address with regard to Lough Neagh, because we need to ensure that planning policy protects water quality in Northern Ireland.”
“I outlined my desire to address those concerns. What I see daily are farm businesses that are already engaging with an awful lot of the stuff that I have outlined. They are engaging in those schemes and do not see an issue, because they understand the importance of productivity and of long-term sustainability for their businesses. What I am talking about is occurring across the rest of the UK and the rest of Europe. It is not surprisingly new; it is stuff that is already going on. I am committed to keeping an eye on the situation and making sure that we have simple and accessible schemes. That is important.”
“That is why I want to work in partnership, not just with my Executive colleagues but with the UK Government on the actions that they need to take.”
“I am avoiding a silo approach. As I have outlined to the Member previously, the food strategy framework is a key aspect of that. It is an overarching, cross-cutting strategy. It is in its final form, and I will bring it to the Executive for approval in the short time ahead. It is key that we do that and understand the benefits around it. I am engaged with ministerial colleagues on those issues because the agriculture, farming, food and fisheries industries that I am talking about and that we have discussed in the Chamber are a key part of the economy. We also need to understand the benefit of that and work together on the issues. I know the challenges that are there, particularly with regard to migration. We also know the issues that have been raised with me time and time again around that.”
“As regards the situation at Lough Neagh, which we debated yesterday, we are aware that a significant proportion, though not all, of the issues — approximately 60% — are due to agricultural run-off. We need to find a way forward to ensure that there is better water quality. Let us be clear: the issues of water quality are not confined to Lough Neagh. What I have outlined today is a way forward through education, engagement and conditionality with regard to support and cross-compliance penalties to ensure that we encourage farm businesses to move towards more sustainable practices that ensure that our waterways are more sustainable. That is absolutely key. I know that many farmers already do that, but we need to bring others on the journey.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I answer questions because they are within my operational responsibility, but there are other areas that are not, and you would not expect me to answer those. I am aware of the issue that you outlined and have received press cuttings about it. Primarily, it is a Northern Ireland Water matter. If the Member writes to me, I will see what role the Environment Agency has in it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Resilience totally underpins everything that I do. There are many examples of good practice around that, but we need to mainstream that good practice and find a way that we can communicate better to make farmers more aware of the practices that are required to give that resilience and long-term sustainability.”
“Resilience is at the absolute core of what I have announced here today. We need to be clear that we have a strong, sustainable future ahead. That is not just in respect of government funding and policy. If you have a farm, you have a farm business, so you will potentially look to banks to borrow money, and the first thing that banks will see is whether you have resilience and long-term viability. That is something that I want to do. We need to have a scheme that allows farmers to withstand the shocks that come along. We also need to find ways that we can diversify and change. I have seen many good practices across Northern Ireland where farms that were once doing a different type of practice have changed in order to be resilient. That has allowed them to have security for the way ahead.”
“It would be good to work in partnership with organisations such as the Ulster Farmers' Union to see how we can chart our course forward.”
“I do this job because I want to change the situation. I want to give people the assurance that we have their backs, we want to support them, and we want to have a sustainable way forward. <BR /> <BR />Mental health is a key motivator for doing that. That is why I am conscious of the words that I say and the interventions that I make. We need to be conscious that we support people and are aware of the challenges that they face. It will be a key issue for me over the time ahead, particularly the training for staff but also seeing how we can talk about the current issues in our rural community. <BR /> <BR />Mental health is one massive issue. Perhaps we have not talked about it as much as we should, particularly among men. We need to break that taboo and have rational conversations around it.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Thus far, I have not talked about that, and it is an important opportunity to outline my views. It particularly relates to our future rural development policy and how we support rural communities. It is also mainstreamed to ensure that staff and advisers who engage in the time ahead are properly trained for their engagement with the farming community. <BR /> <BR />In my time as Minister, I have seen a really committed community. I have seen many examples of good practice, but I also see examples of loneliness. I see examples of tough things happening on farms, and farmers often deal with those on their own or with just their husband or wife, which can be difficult. There are personal stories that I will not outline here today, but their challenges will remain with me for the rest of my life.”
“I am committed to engaging with relevant stakeholders on the issue, but I am also prepared to make sure that I do things correctly, and that is what I have committed to do as Minister. I am not short-circuiting processes or the evidence and science that is presented to me, because, if I do that, the first thing that will happen is that I will end up in court.”
“You are OK. <BR /> <BR />I am trying to address that issue, but it is important that I am guided by the science and evidence. It is important that the industry is successful, but it is also important that it is sustainable. Producers and consumers look to the product to make sure that it is made in a manner that safeguards our environment, and I am very aware of that. We cannot, on one hand, debate motions time after time in this place about the environment and Lough Neagh but, on the other hand, say, "Cast aside the evidence and science and just rock on". We cannot do that. We have to be guided by the evidence and science and find a sustainable way forward.”
“My colleagues across the rest of the UK and Ireland have been speaking to me about the scheme and saying that they see it as a model that can be rolled out in areas in their jurisdiction. That is one of many examples of stuff that has been going on. Hopefully, we can pull together and profile much more across Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I will give you a practical example of that. When I was doing farm visits on Friday in the upper Bann catchment area with the Rivers Trust and the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute (AFBI), I saw clearly what the benefits are. The farmer had participated in the scheme. He had the information presented on maps that he had available on a computer and had printed off. He was able to identify the areas where there were issues with water gathering and how we manage that but also where to grow crops and how to manage the farm more effectively. That was allowing the business to be more productive while managing water quality in our riverways, and that catchment area leads into Lough Neagh. There is a practical benefit where data, knowledge and evidence are power to allow us to make the change.”
“I am giving you an answer — but I cannot subvert process or ignore the science and evidence around the issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am keen to see that we get movement on this, but we need to make sure that whatever we do is science-led and evidence-led, and that is what I am guided by in my role as Minister. I get the concerns about the issue, Mr Buckley —”
“The draft ammonia strategy, which proposes measures to reduce ammonia emissions, underwent public consultation from 4 January to 3 March 2023 and attracted a high level of interest across all stakeholder groups. Responses to the consultation are being used to inform a reworked draft ammonia strategy. Additional scientific modelling, statistical analysis and supply chain consideration is being undertaken to optimise design of the key proposed mandatory measures on the use of low-emission slurry-spreading equipment. A high-level report and a draft summary report on the responses to the consultation on the draft ammonia strategy have been published. A reworked strategy will be developed by autumn this year.”
“I will set out a bit of background on the issue around ammonia. The Office for Environmental Protection, which was discussed yesterday during the debate on environmental governance, took, in the absence of Ministers, what was essentially a judicial review against my Department with regard to ammonia. The permanent secretary at the time responded to that within the powers available to her, and I fully support her response and actions around that. In Northern Ireland, we need to safeguard our environment, and we need to ensure that, going forward, our environment is sustainable. That is why we are in the situation that we are now in. <BR /> <BR />To deal with ammonia, I want to chart a course forward that protects our environment but allows our farm businesses to operate sustainably.”
“I thank the Member for her question. Yes, the food strategy framework is very much in final draft form, and I hope to bring it to the Executive soon. It will align closely with the programme. There are other issues in it that we need to address, such as food poverty. It is a shame that people in our country experience food poverty, and the food strategy framework will relate to that. I am very much looking forward to launching it. It is a cross-cutting strategy, which is why it needs to go to the Executive. In the time ahead, hopefully, we can show, through the interventions that the Executive and I make, that we are making a positive difference to people's lives in Northern Ireland.”
“The new farm support and development programme has a farming for the generations programme to encourage longer-term planning for farm businesses. A farming for the generations pilot scheme, which is planned to commence in autumn 2024, will support farm businesses in planning for a timely and orderly transition to a new generation. The future of the current farmers' payment will be considered in the context of the farming for the generations programme. <BR /> <BR />Let us be clear: the future for farming is positive. Let us, all together, encourage more younger people to participate.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I want to get lots more young people involved in farming. It is a challenge — it is the challenge, if you will pardon the pun, of our generation — to get younger people involved. It is important that the message that we and I, as the Minister, send from here is a positive one on the future for agriculture and farming in Northern Ireland. If we are to get young people involved, a negative message will not attract them, so we need to set up a positive vision for the future. I am determined to do that day after day. <BR /> <BR />The young farmers' payment scheme provides an annual top-up of the basic payment scheme for farmers who meet the eligibility requirements. The scheme is open for applications, and the last year to apply for it is 2025.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I am conscious of the issues that he has raised about small farm businesses and how we support them. I will write to the Member with the details of the evaluation that was done. We have to be clear about this: we have to have a scheme that is fit for purpose and meets the business case requirements of Treasury and the Department of Finance. That is what I have to do. I also want to see whether there is a way — I have engaged with the Finance Minister on this and will continue to do so — of looking at funding through a different lens. Currently, we look at it just through the lens of pounds, shillings and pence, but we need to look at the benefits that it gives. I am also doing that. <BR /> <BR />I will write to the Member on the details of the issue that he raised. It is valuable that he raised it.”
“I know that there are challenges, but, if we work together, we can overcome those challenges and deliver a secure future for people. I am conscious that we are talking about people's livelihoods. It is a generational thing: families are invested in their farming enterprise. I want to support those businesses so that, in the time ahead, we can provide them with security and can all have something that we can be proud of in Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the deadline for the single farm payment, the carry-across and details around that, I am happy to have a meeting afterwards with one of my officials. I will get clarification to the Member on that, hopefully, today or tomorrow. <BR /> <BR />The first element of the question was about pitting agriculture and the environment against each other: it is a false narrative. We cannot have economically sustainable farming that is not environmentally sustainable, and I am clear about that. I do not intend to feed into that narrative, because it is absolutely false and is based on the wrong premise. I have a clear vision for the future of the farming community in Northern Ireland. It is a positive vision.”
“Everyone is being creative with their questions. Sometimes, there are three or four in one. The Principal Deputy Speaker is showing amazing patience. <BR /> <BR />I will start with the role of women in agriculture. The legacy report that the Committee produced in the last mandate was increasingly useful. I followed up on it on my recent visit to Brussels to see what they are doing across Europe on the issue. It is something that I want to look at for this but also with regard to a rural development policy. We need to refresh our rural development policy to reflect the realities of today. I see significant issues with the role of women in rural communities that we need to address, particularly, for example, childcare. We need to work at that.”
“I felt that it was important that I came to the Chamber today to outline the statement and take questions from Members. The easier thing to do would have been to issue a written ministerial statement on Thursday at the Balmoral show, but I felt that it was important to come here, because one of the benefits of devolution is having Ministers in post who are accountable to the Assembly. I am also happy to come to the Committee, if necessary, to go through more on the issue.”
“I thank the Member for his question. There are a number of aspects to it. I addressed the matter of complexity in my statement. It is important that, when we go forward, we check everything around the complexity and the ability to ensure that it is simple and easy to access. I have asked, as part of today's statement, for that to be considered going forward. <BR /> <BR />If there are concerns from the stakeholder group, I am happy to talk to the Member outside the Chamber, and we can talk through some of those concerns. <BR /> <BR />There is a lot of detail in relation to this, and we need to work up how each individual scheme will operate. It is important that we do that. Over the time ahead, there will be much more detail on it.”
“It is about striking a balance and recognising the need for resilience for food security but also allowing them to move forward successfully. <BR /> <BR />Let us be clear: I am very hopeful about the sector. I look forward to the Balmoral show this week. There are challenges, but I think that, collectively, we all want to put our shoulder to the wheel and to see whether we can find a way forward to address those challenges. I came in as a Minister focused on solutions, and that is what I will do over the time ahead.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Climate change is, obviously, an issue in the Chamber as well today. <BR /> <BR />The detail is important. I am genuinely committed to the process of co-design, which is how this has been successfully developed thus far. There is a need to find a way forward so that we have resilience in the sector. That has been a key concern for a number of farm businesses, given the weather issues over the past number of months. The farm sustainability payment is about building resilience and ensuring that we are able to equip them. <BR /> <BR />I understand that we need to have a safety net for businesses. I am also conscious that, given the funding that we have, business cases must satisfy in terms of value for money.”