Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
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“The Government are fond of saying that they are getting on with the people’s priorities, however much opinion polls may suggest the opposite. I agree entirely that all parties believe that the Bill is needed, and all parties want to get it on to the statute book. Does the Minister share my concern that the sheer weight of amendments proposed, and the widespread group of people who are saying that a number of people are being missed by this glorious once-in-a-Parliament opportunity, mean that the Government should be much more ambitious about ensuring that more victims get the support they need?”
“Only by ensuring that a case has been looked at by a specialist officer can we make sure that intervention happens sooner, preventing it from reaching the tragic and appalling conclusion that it did in Gracie’s case. I cannot see any argument for including ISDAs and ISVAs on the face of the Bill, but not stalking advocates. Stalkers are often not known to the victim, and the threat they pose is different from that posed in a case of domestic violence. Finally, new clause 6 is a very important clause, because we know there is an inconsistency of approach between different police forces, and stalking advocates cannot always get the funding they need.”
“Gracie’s family have launched the Gracie’s law campaign to call for all police forces to fund a stalking co-ordinator and stalking advocates. They also say that all officers should regularly have their training signed off and renewed, so that services become more consistent across the country. The amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham, which are supported by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, are important in this regard. They add the words “independent stalking advocates” to the list of specialist advocates that the Secretary of State must issue guidance about, alongside ISVAs and ISDAs, and define what a stalking advocate is. Those amendments are so important because, for many victims of stalking, it is often the case that the stalking falls some way short of the threshold for police intervention.”
“Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) and others, pertaining to the role that stalking advocates can play and the need for them to have recognised status in the Bill, as independent sexual violence and domestic violence advocates do. On 18 June 2021, people in Chesterfield and right across the country were shocked and appalled by the murder of 23-year-old Gracie Spinks. That grief quickly turned to anger and despair when it became clear that she had been murdered by a man with whom she had previously worked, who had been stalking her and whom she had reported to the police. Following the internal investigations into how Derbyshire Constabulary had handled that case, it has subsequently taken on a stalking advocate to try to ensure that stalking victims are heard.”
“May I start by saying how disappointing it is that a Bill with so much potential to be a force for good should ultimately end in three-minute speeches by Members who have huge contributions to make? The timetabling really wants looking at. It lets victims down, because, as I said earlier, there is so much in the Bill that people who understand this sector have sought to add. The breadth of the amendments demonstrates powerfully how much more there is to be done. I support many of the amendments, but given the time that we have, I will confine my remarks predominantly to amendments 4, 17 and 18, and to new clause 6, tabled by my hon.”
“Let me say on behalf of the people right across Chesterfield that we have an absolute respect for the role played by veterans. I know that people across my constituency want veterans to get the support they need. We have an organisation in Derbyshire, Stand To, which does fantastic work in providing veterans’ support services. I will be writing to that organisation following this statement. I was expecting to be writing to say that the Government were now in a position to provide their response to the review. From what the Minister has been able to say today, he seems keen to make the point that this not just a rebranding exercise; Veterans UK is being stood down, but there will be a replacement. Can he say any more about what will actually replace it, so I can put that in the letter that I am writing to Stand To?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It has recently been announced that owing to its perilous financial position, Derbyshire County Council has asked the Department for Transport to pause its plans for the Staveley regeneration route bypass. That would mean that £140 million of Government money would not be available to us in Chesterfield for a much needed bypass because of the financial problems of Derbyshire County Council. Obviously the decision was not made by the Department for Transport, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I wonder whether you have been notified of any plans for a statement to be made in the House about the proposed change. If not, how we can ensure that the council and the Department work together to ensure that this important route still goes ahead?”
“What assessment has the Minister made of the success of the early warning system? The financial costs facing flood victims and the council are huge. Can the Minister explain when the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities will confirm that residents qualify for financial support from the flood recovery framework, and that the council will be covered for the huge additional cost via the Bellwin scheme? How quickly will the Government be in a position to announce that?”
“Flood Babet hit Chesterfield very hard on Friday, with the River Rother and the River Hipper bursting their banks. Tragically, 83-year-old Maureen Gilbert of Tapton Terrace lost her life in her own home. Her death has hit both her family and her neighbours very hard. On behalf of the whole House, I send our condolences to the family. As many as 400 homes across Brampton, Birdholme, Riverside and Tapton Terrace have been flooded, and countless businesses now face a fight for their survival. It is particularly hard to bear as the vast majority of those properties are the same ones that flooded in 2007, despite the Government implementing schemes to protect the River Rother. Why did residents on Tapton Terrace receive the phone call from the early warning system only after their houses had been flooded?”
“I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. This weekend I was out meeting flood victims in Chesterfield. The flood damage of one of them was up to 3 feet high in their front room. They were told by the landlord, who was busy as I arrived, hoovering the carpet, which had sewage and river effluent all over it, that they must accept that the landlord would attempt to clean the carpet rather than a renter expecting a new one and that if they would not tolerate that, she would end their tenancy and throw them out. Does that not demonstrate how the balance of power between landlords and renters is totally skewed? Is there not all the more need for the strongest possible legislation to ensure that we do take action against those rogue landlords?”
“The Secretary of State was at pains to stress that the majority of landlords are good ones. It is almost like saying that there has been a delay to murder legislation because most people do not kill people. The reality is that we need legislation because there are some bad landlords, and the imbalance between renters and landlords is huge. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although it is welcome that we have finally got to Second Reading, many people have been let down by how long it has taken? It is now the responsibility of us all to get the legislation moving as quickly as we can.”
“At the moment, huge numbers are winning their appeals, which makes it clear that the work capability assessment is not working.”
“It is very noticeable that the Secretary of State did not answer the question of the hon. Member for Wellingborough about why he believes that there has been a trebling of the number of people who are now getting the maximum verdict under the work capability assessment. I have helped many of my constituents who have had problems with their WCA, and not one of them has come to me and said that it is the WCA that is keeping them out of work. Many of them have said that it is not nuanced enough to understand the issues, and I welcome the fact that it is to be replaced. However, can the Secretary of State tell us what assessment he has made of how many people are likely to win their appeals after the changes that he has brought in, and what percentage are winning them now?”
“I envy the Minister’s apparently limitless capacity for self-congratulation, but it does not bear much relationship to what people are experiencing on the ground. I went to visit migrants in a hotel in Chesterfield; there were 81 people there, not a single one of whom had had their case heard. The Minister is apparently congratulating himself on the most basic improvements that any competent Home Office should have been making over the past 18 months. How does he explain the fact that, under this Government, more migrants are arriving, yet 70% fewer are being returned than in 2010?”
“New research from the House of Commons Library has shown that the amount of the apprenticeship levy paid by employers that has been allocated to the apprenticeship budget has fallen from 89% in 2017 to just 77% in the most recent year. The truthful answer to the question from the hon. Member for Stroud (Siobhan Baillie) is that the Secretary of State is doing nothing to reform the apprenticeship levy, as she believes it is working perfectly. Can the Minister confirm that any employer that, like the hon. Member for Stroud, wants greater flexibility in the levy should vote Labour in the next general election?”
“I am grateful, but that is not really an answer to my question of whether the Minister considers that the amount of affordable housing is adequate. Under the Conservatives, the number of new social rented homes has fallen by over 80%, and there are now 27,000 fewer socially rented homes built each year than there were under a Labour Government. Meanwhile, hard-pressed mortgage holders are facing the highest interest rates in a generation. Is it not clear that neither renters nor buyers can afford another year of this Tory Government?”
“I have been here for all of the right hon. Lady’s speech and, over the 14 minutes of it,, I have been desperately hoping she was going to get to the point she really wants to raise. She does not disagree that she said the things that are in the report, but she thinks it is discourteous that she was not told in advance. She thinks other people may have said things that were missed out of the report. What is actually the main point of what, over the last 14 minutes, she has been saying?”
“I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. Regarding his Committee’s call for a moratorium, the Labour party is committed to that. We entirely agree with him, and while he will not be in Parliament after the next election, he can be assured that if we have a Labour Government, the call he has made today will be supported.”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that the recruitment problems in further education are seen not only in all the vacancies, but in the fact that further education colleges are not even running a huge number of courses? They say, “We know that we won’t be able to find the lecturers and we can’t run this profitably, so we’re no longer going to put the course on.” There is therefore not a vacancy there, but a denial of opportunity to young students.”
“A Labour Government will see that making the best use of all of our talents is the way to grow our economy and repair our society, and will see FE college lecturers, schoolteachers and local adult education providers as key contributors to our economic plan. Yes, the Labour Government will inherit a rancid economic picture, but they will have the plans needed to return our nation to growth, with schools, colleges, universities, devolved decision makers and employers working in tandem. That Government are coming, and they cannot come a moment too soon.”
“Unlike the current Government, we will ensure a joined-up approach, with a new body, Skills England, to co-ordinate the framework. For too long this short-sighted approach has held back the ambitions of our people and our economy, but we all hope those days are nearly behind us. Finally, this exhausted Government can be put out of their misery and the Conservative party can have a period of quiet—or maybe not so quiet—reflection, during which it can consider what kind of a party it wishes to be. And then it will be time for a Labour Government that recognise the importance of a joined-up skills system, encourage employers to invest in their staff, ease the bureaucratic burdens that shut small and medium-sized enterprises out of apprenticeships and ensure that money allocated for skills is actually spent on skills.”
“Member for Braintree (James Cleverly), who was then followed by the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse). Finally, exhausted DFE officials provided briefing to their sixth Secretary of State in just over a year, the right hon. Member for Chichester, who returned as Secretary of State for Education. Whether the outcome of the original level 3 consultation had gone missing somewhere between briefing Secretary of State No. 3 and briefing Secretary of State No. 6, I do not know, but what we do know is that, Bobby Ewing-like, the previous year had not happened and suddenly we were back to the disastrous approach that 86% of consultees had warned the Government against. We believe there is a real need for skills policy to be aligned with regional economic policy and to be evidence based.”
“Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) headed up a consultation on the Government’s approach, where a staggering 86% of respondents—skills professionals, employers, learners and their families—were opposed to their plans. That 86% is not a small minority—it is the kind of overwhelming response that we normally see only on a Liberal Democrat “Focus” leaflet. When the Government say that 86% of people are opposed to their plans, that needs to be taken seriously. The right hon. Gentleman did all he could do and announced that the Government would be removing only a small number of courses, and the sector breathed a huge sigh of relief. He was then promoted and we had the two-day reign of the right hon. Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan). She was followed by the right hon.”
“The primary role at the centre of that qualification of the passing of a single exam, as opposed to the more modular forms of study and assessment available in some of the other advanced general qualifications, means people are missing out on something that has proved transformational for many students. That is why I repeat that Labour will pause the disastrous approach the Government are hellbent on pursuing of defunding level 3 courses. It is worth recalling the role that the dysfunction at the heart of the Government has played in the approach they are taking. The right hon. Member for Chichester (Gillian Keegan) was the Skills Minister who set England on the path to an all T-level world. She then disappeared into other Departments, while the right hon.”
“As well as allowing employers to utilise their funds to help people back into work, it is important that the Government also get it right on qualifications. We heard from the hon. Member for Worcester about the Government’s review of BTECs, which is tremendously important. The Labour party supports T-levels, recognising that they are a qualification in evolution. Their purpose has changed before our eyes since they have been in place, but there have been issues with implementation, as the hon. and learned Member for Eddisbury (Edward Timpson) said.”
“Friend reflected on Labour’s plans to reform the apprenticeship levy into a growth and skills levy that is more flexible and will allow some of it to be spent on other, more modular courses. So many organisations have called for that; Kate Shoesmith, the deputy chief executive of the Recruitment and Employment Confederation, said at the time of the last Budget: “Offering flexible skills training, by reforming the Apprenticeship Levy, is long overdue.” As we well as discussing boosting apprenticeships, the hon. Member for Great Grimsby spoke about the difficulty of the bureaucracy that many small and medium-sized enterprises encounter and the fall that we have seen in level 2 and 3 apprenticeships.”
“Research by the Learning and Work Institute found that employer investment in training their staff is now 28% lower than it was in 2005. So 13 years into what the Government say is a “revolution” that places employers “at the heart” of our skills system, our employers are spending less on training their staff now than they were 13 years ago and fewer courses are available. The Government seem unable to make the changes that they are constantly told we need. It is not just in the underfunding that our young people, learners and employers have been let down. An incoming Labour Government will offer the reforms that many employers and providers have been crying out for. My hon.”
“Members for Eastbourne (Caroline Ansell) and for Loughborough said. David Hughes of the Association of Colleges has said: “The past 12 years have witnessed a decimation in funding for education and skills for 16 to 18-year-olds… There are now insufficient places available and those which remain are inadequately funded.” Alongside the exodus from the further education profession, there is profound difficulty in finding courses of real importance to our economy in many areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Andrew Western) reflected on the fact that care apprenticeships are no longer being offered at Trafford College. The collapse in public funding has been mirrored by and has partially caused a reduction in the amount employers are spending on training their workforce.”
“Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) spoke about the fact that college lecturers are now on £8,000 a year less in real terms than their equivalent salary in 2010. Years of pay freezes, redundancies and non-replacement of lecturers have seen as much as 80% of the FE workforce leave. We heard excellent speeches from the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Lia Nici) and the right hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Sir David Evennett), who both spoke of their experience in the sector. They got out in time not to have the £8,000 a year pay cut they would have had if they stayed. The hon. Lady’s call for further education salaries to be taken seriously was powerful. These salaries often mean that colleges cannot put on courses for which there is demand because they cannot recruit people to teach them, as the hon.”
“Few areas of Government spending more directly explain Britain’s sluggish growth figures than our failure on skills, on which the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) reflected a moment ago. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss) said the savage cuts inflicted on colleges and adult education over the past 13 years have had an adverse impact on life chances and on our wider economy. From 2010 to 2019, the further education budget was cut by a third in real terms and adult education funding was cut by almost half, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said. The collapse in public funding for our FE sector has had many disastrous consequences. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) and the hon.”
“We entirely agree that there should be a moratorium on defunding BTECs, and he made a powerful point on the importance of careers guidance in opening opportunities, particularly to people from more deprived communities. The hon. Member for Loughborough (Jane Hunt) spoke about an excellent college that I recently had the great pleasure of visiting with my colleague Jeevun Sandher. The college’s responsiveness when the hon. Lady got in touch says everything about the specific role our further education sector plays and about the passion of people within the sector for ensuring that they are linked to the local community, to the local business community and to employers, and for ensuring they make a real difference.”
“Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) said, to the staff and skills crises that employers raise with Members every week of the year. I will reflect on a few of today’s contributions. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West spoke about the economic benefits of adult education, which helps people to engage in education before often moving into the world of work. The hon. Member for Worcester, referring to adult education being a Cinderella service, said that Cinderella went on to marry a prince, but I remind him that Cinderella is a fairy tale. He was not in the mood to listen to any fairy tales today, speaking powerfully about the many measures outlined in his report and his disappointment that the Government have not engaged more willingly on some of the recommendations on funding cuts.”
“It is a tremendous pleasure to respond to this excellent debate. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) and the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) for securing it. They have both announced that they will not return to this place after the next election; they will both be a tremendous loss, especially given the contribution that they both make to our debates on education and their passion for the subject. I take this opportunity to thank them both for the contribution to the sector that they make in this place. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Worcester on his Committee’s report, which precipitated this debate and has been tremendously welcome. This has been an important debate about an area the Government have consistently underfunded, which has contributed, as the right hon.”
“I am grateful. There is much I would like to come back to the Minister on, but I want to ask specifically about T-levels. He mentioned that 10,000 people are starting them, and many of the T-level students I have met have very much enjoyed their courses. However, at the moment, 230,000 students do applied general qualifications whereas 10,000 are doing T-levels. In two years’ time, the vast majority of those 230,000 students will not have that course to study. Does he not hear why the call for a moratorium, for him just to take his time, is so powerful and why that view is so widely held?”
“Is there anything in what the Minister is announcing today that will empower people in Chesterfield to bring their prices down?”
“The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) asked a good and apposite question. In February, I wrote to all the major supermarkets that have outlets in Chesterfield asking them why they were retailing petrol for 10p more a litre there than they were selling it for just 10 miles up the road in Sheffield. They were very transparent and honest about this, saying, “ It’s a market where we think we can make more money out of Chesterfield residents than we do out of Sheffield residents. That’s why we charge you more.” That is despite the fact that there is no additional cost to getting the fuel there. Although I welcome the greater transparency, making it easier for consumers, what they will see in Chesterfield is that they are paying more than they would up the road in Sheffield.”
“The 8,600 mortgage holders in Chesterfield whose mortgages have increased by an average of £1,900 a year will be very conscious that in the Chancellor’s responses he has been very happy to blame global factors, but that when he is asked about specific countries such as France and Germany—the major European nations where outcomes are not as bad as in the UK—he quickly deflects and says, “Let’s talk about Australia or Canada.” Will he answer the question that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) asked? Will he explain why it is worse for my constituents in Chesterfield than it is in France, in Germany and in other countries he has been asked about?”
“The Leader of the House referred to the evidence, and it is important that people who perhaps do not have the report in front of them understand the depth of evidence that the Committee looked at. That included: visiting No. 10 Downing Street; looking at evidence supplied by the Government, emails, WhatsApp messages and photographs; and conducting many hours of interviews. Does she agree that those who have not had all that evidence and have not done all those interviews should not presume to say that the Committee was wrong when it did that hard work on our behalf?”
“The Conservative party once prided itself on being the party of homeowners. The fact that we long ago ran out of Conservatives asking questions makes it clear that Tory MPs realise they have nothing to say to those people. Does the Minister realise that my constituents who are desperately worried about the cost of their mortgages will not have heard a single word from him to suggest that things are going to get better as a result of this Government’s actions?”
“The Secretary of State says that she is listening to businesses, but if she were, she would hear that Labour’s plan to devolve adult education budgets to local communities and directly elected Mayors, and to change the apprenticeship levy into a more flexible growth and skills levy, has won widespread support from across the business community. Why is she so determined to stand against what employers say they want, and to hold learners, employers and our economy back?”
“I am one of the relatively few Labour Members of Parliament whose constituents voted by a majority to leave, and the issue of parliamentary scrutiny was often raised during the referendum. I have had a number of them get in touch to tell me how disappointed they are that we are now not going to be getting the parliamentary scrutiny that we were promised as one of the benefits of Brexit.”
“With the greatest respect, under the previous arrangement we had Members of the European Parliament doing that scrutiny. It is not really comparable to say that nothing has changed and this is somehow more. Because we have got rid of our representatives in the European Parliament, it is all the more important that these matters are considered, but for the Minister to say, “There is a Committee that deals with this. None of you will hear about it, but none the less its work is important” sounds exactly like the sort of thing that my constituents thought we were getting away from.”
“The point that my hon. Friend makes light-heartedly is actually very relevant. The truth is that we have seen chaos on the Government Benches. We have seen Ministers speak extremely boldly about the Bill’s powers, only to water them down when they come face to face with reality. Does not the farcical way in which this Government have conducted their affairs give people real concern, including about what is in this Bill?”
“I am very pleased with the way my hon. Friend has started her speech, because she is absolutely right. Alongside the additional healthcare staff needed and the many measures that my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) and I have been spelling out for the health service, the society that has been created over the past 13 years of austerity has had massive impact on the mental health crisis. I am glad that my hon. Friend has focused on that. It will be the job of the entire future Labour Government to support her and her colleagues to reduce the mental health crisis.”
“One of the issues here is that the demand for mental health services has gone through the roof, from 3.6 million in 2020-21 to 4.5 million in 2021-22. My hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan) was clear in her view, which I share, that the policies of this Government have been a factor in driving up the mental health demand. Does the Minister accept that? If not, what does he put it down to?”
“Between 2017 and 2022 alone, the number of children aged between seven and 16 with a probable mental health disorder rose from 12% to 18%. Shockingly, among those aged between 17 and 19, the figure more than doubled, from 10% to 25.7%. Finally, let me turn to the Government’s disappointing, inadequate and defensive amendment to the motion. It says everything about their complacency and lack of ideas that they should try to convince the House that they have already acted to reduce A&E stays. Last year in Chesterfield alone, people suffering a mental health crisis spent 5,254 hours in A&E. It is clear from the debate that our nation’s mental health patients are being let down and the Government have neither the wit nor the will to fix it. I am pleased that Labour will prioritise this crucial area of health and I endorse the motion.”
“The Government need to stop for a minute and think about the role they have played in causing that increase. From the start in 2010, the Government’s pursuit of people on benefits, their targeting of the unemployed and the mentally ill, their approach to work capability assessments and the reduction in housing benefit, leading to record levels of poverty and homelessness, have all played a part in increasing the pressures on people and have in themselves added to the mental health crisis. No one is suggesting that those are the only causes—of course, very successful people can have mental health crises, too—but the Government should take that expansion in the numbers seriously. The pressures on children in that period have exacerbated the problems.”
“I stress to my Front-Bench colleagues that, while we realise that specialist staff will not be based in every single village and town, we need to give real consideration to providing those specialist services close enough that families can easily play their part in supporting patients, particularly children, in their treatment and recovery. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Tooting focused on some of the causes of the mental health crisis. The Government are quick to talk about the increased amounts they are spending, but they are forced to spend more because there are more and more patients coming forward. If we had a huge expansion in the number of people with cancer, we would have to increase the number of cancer doctors, and yet we have far more people with mental health crises.”
“Friend the Member for Ilford North have been able to secure a commitment for additional funding from shadow Treasury colleagues—all of us who sit in Front Bench positions will know that is very difficult—to pursue the plans that are so desperately needed. I want to talk about access to services locally. Stephen Jones in my constituency had a child with a mental health crisis that required in-patient treatment. The child was moved to Stoke-on-Trent, 70 miles away, because there are no child in-patient beds available in the whole of Derbyshire. The isolation that Stephen’s child experienced exacerbated their problems and made it harder for the family to support them.”
“That can lead to the unchecked exacerbation of problems and children missing school—not the odd day, but months at a time. Whole years of their schooling are lost and family routines decimated as the entire family steps in to provide the support that an earlier intervention could have prevented. Mental health is not a minority issue. Every year, one in four people will experience a common mental health problem. This Government are guilty of both underfunding mental health services and, through their actions, causing the number of people with mental health problems to rise. We all know that the Government have allowed our country’s economy to end up in a terrible mess and that money is short, but it is welcome and right that the Labour party and my hon.”