Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
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“The right hon. Lady is absolutely right about the importance of faith. I as a Christian have no worries about voting for this Bill. What greater example of the equalities agenda could there be than Jesus Christ himself?”
“Does my right hon. Friend recognise that many of the people who argued strongly and passionately against civil partnerships just a few years ago have no argument with them now and recognise that they have been a success? Perhaps in a few years’ time, the argument will have moved on and we will all be able to recognise that equality in our country is a good thing.”
“As I have said previously, I think that Jesus Christ led the way on promoting equalities. There are any number of stories in the Bible that make it absolutely clear that Jesus stuck up for groups that had been oppressed over the years. As a Christian, I feel entirely comfortable voting in favour of this Bill. As someone who got married at the famous Crooked Spire church in Chesterfield, I do not think that my marriage will be besmirched or undermined in any way by the fact that gay people in the future might also be able to say that they are married. Some of those who have written to me seem to believe that the argument is about whether heterosexuality or homosexuality is better. They seem to argue that, because gay marriage will be an option, some young people will suddenly decide that they are not straight anymore, but gay.”
“I am pleased that the Minister has confirmed that there is no compulsion on faith groups to do anything and that, while the Church of England will have the opportunity to opt in, it will not be forced to do something that it does not want to do. My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) also made very well the point that marriage belongs to all of us, rather than simply to religious groups. I am also glad that the Minister has confirmed that there will be no requirement on teachers to promote gay marriage and that, in fact, as with civil partnerships, the Bill will make no difference to the questions they might be asked. That is important, because some of my constituents were concerned about it. As a Christian, I see Christianity as a tremendously generous religion.”
“Members will know, a Second Reading debate is about the central principles of a Bill. Some Members, such as the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries), say that the Bill has flaws, but if Government Members were to vote against every Bill because of an occasional flaw, the Government would never get anything past Second Reading. We need to understand that what we are talking about today are the principles, which are of central importance. I recognise that some people—predominantly older members of society—are worried about the way the world is changing and the things that they are seeing.”
“Today is a significant day for Britain as an equal nation. Today is about equality, but it is also about one of the fundamental principles that I think each of the political parties represented in this House recognises, namely that, basically, we should live and let live: we should let people get on with their own lives and give people who are gay the same basic rights that the rest of us enjoy. I have received a tremendous amount of representations and the vast majority from those on both sides of the argument have been respectful and passionate and have reflected deeply-held views. I have had three meetings with objectors in Chesterfield to understand their objections and, if this Bill passes its Second Reading, I will have further meetings with them to understand the actual detail. As hon.”
“Absolutely. I have never said this in political terms before, but at the end of her life my mother was gay. It was difficult for me as a young man growing up in Sheffield to think that my friends might discover that. People do not deserve to live in that way, so this is fundamentally about mutual respect. I think that is why the majority of people, as polls have shown, ultimately support the proposal. They recognise that people are made differently and have a right to enjoy the same things as others.”
“There is still time to discuss some of the detail and there will be an opportunity to scrutinise the Bill and for people to make further representations, but today is about saying that we recognise that there is a place for gay people in our society and that they have the right to enjoy the same respect for their relationships as the rest of us enjoy for ours. I hope that Members will support that.”
“Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) this morning, she informed me that when she stood for election she was not aware that the Conservatives had a contract for equality. Perhaps that says something about how we need to start putting equalities at the top of the agenda. It is important, however, that the Conservative party had been talking about the issue. Finally, today is a very important day and I think that in years to come we will look back on it with pride and say that we made the right decision.”
“Indeed. That is an incredibly important point. This whole debate reminds me of a colleague on Chesterfield borough council who recalled that, when he told one of the older councillors that homosexuality had been legalised— thinking that he would be appalled—the response was that he did not mind it being legalised so long as it was not made compulsory. I think that many people in Britain will recognise those basic principles. On the question of whether there was a manifesto commitment, I have read the Conservative party’s “A Contract for Equalities”, which makes it absolutely clear that the Government will consider gay marriage. When I debated the subject with the hon.”
“The Minister is absolutely right to say that the reputation of our banks has never been lower. We hope that we will start to see the important changes we need. One reason for that reputation is the experience that many small businesses had with interest rate swap agreements. While many welcome the FSA announcement on that, there are still some concerns about whether people will really consider that they have had justice at the end of the process. Will the Minister confirm what representations he has made to the FSA about what it should find during the deliberations, and will he give us any assurances that the interest rate swap problems we have had in the past will not reappear in future?”
“I am grateful to the Leader of the House. It is undoubtedly true that the question could be settled one way or another today. However, given that the Liberal Democrats are clear that they will not support him, is not the most sensible thing for the House to finish this and not waste any more money on it, rather than continue with the process when it has already been made clear that what was a very political initial manoeuvre is now doomed to fail?”
“My right hon. Friend’s point about the number of people who are not on the electoral register is one of the most fundamental in the debate. If Government Members had given us some sense that they were taking the position seriously—if they had paid attention to some of the reasoned amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—it would have been much easier for us to take them seriously today.”
“If the Secretary of State had succeeded in uniting everyone—from the CBI to the teaching unions, from Kenneth Baker to Sir Jonathan Ive—in support of his proposals, we would be calling him a genius. What word would he use to describe someone who has achieved the exact opposite?”
“The hon. Gentleman is making the point strongly that it is important that we make work pay. On that basis, is he concerned that 60% of those affected by the clauses we are discussing today are in work, and that this Bill is making precisely those hard-working people on low and middle incomes worse off by being in work?”
“Does not that list of people in those professions that are going to be badly hit fundamentally undermine the idea that the Bill is really about incentivising lazy people to go and get a job, which will happen only if the incentive system is made a little bit nastier?”
“What the right hon. Gentleman has just said is fundamentally untrue. Just because the percentage rise for someone on £71 a week is more than that for someone on £35,000 a year does not mean that they are better off. Will he correct the record on that point?”
“When money is taken from the poorest in our society and at the same time given to the very wealthiest in our society, as was mentioned earlier, we are taking money away from people who will spend it in the real economy and giving it to people who are much more likely to take it out of the real economy and not spend it. It makes no economic sense, even on the basis that the Government are introducing this measure to reduce the deficit.”
“It is a great pleasure to follow the thoughtful and useful contribution of the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) and the contributions of other hon. Members. One thing that has come across in the speeches of Members on both sides of the Chamber is the economic illiteracy of the Government’s policy as part of a strategy for reducing the deficit. As other Members have said, one of the great things about welfare payments is that when people are living on the bread line, the money that they receive is spent in the local economy, often within their own community or on their own estate. They spend it at their local convenience store. They tend to spend it the minute they get it, rather than put it in trust funds, because they are attempting to sustain their life on the bread line.”
“The Labour party recognises that tough choices need to be made, and it agreed to a whole raft of things in all the discussions on welfare. When I go back to my local party, the members ask, “Why are we agreeing with these things?” I say, “Look, it is very difficult. We would always like to make certain different decisions but”—”
“As Members on the Government Benches are fond of reminding us, at one point they thought that the original plans of my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) were not paying off the deficit fast enough. We now see, however, that under those plans we were actually paying off the deficit faster than this Government are doing. The fact that the Labour party was going to make tough decisions is reflected in a whole number of ways, and we supported—with tremendous reluctance—the very small uplift in public sector pay. We heard from the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) a shopping list of things we should be asking for and ways in which she felt we did not go far enough.”
“Let me just answer the point raised by the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng). We would always like to make different decisions, but we are not always in a position to do so. There is a raft of things with which we have agreed that we would not have wanted. We have seen, however, from the policies that the hon. Gentleman has so loyally supported time after time, that when we pursue austerity to the extent that he has been happy to support, demand comes out of the economy. Various retail businesses have gone bust and people are losing their jobs. A huge number of people in the public sector who were consumers are now not spending money, and the level of borrowing that the Government predict is higher than the Labour party proposed under its policies.”
“On the specific issue of whether HMV has gone bust purely as a result of the economic circumstances, no, that is not the case I am making. However, when a raft of retail organisations go into administration, and when we see in many town centres—happily, not in Chesterfield because of the progressive policies of the Labour council—a huge number of empty shop units, it is perhaps time to start considering whether the economic policies pursued by the Government may have some sort of link to the economic success of our businesses.”
“That very important point underlines much of what I am saying. When hon. Members talk about benefits rising faster than earnings, we have to understand that each one of us needs basic things to stay alive. We need to have enough food to eat and put in front of our children for them to survive; we need clothing so that we can go out in the street; and we must be able to afford transport to get to job interviews.”
“I would like to finish my point. I am glad that my comments have elicited so much excitement and that lots of people want to intervene. There are basic things that we need in order to sustain life, and if someone is on poverty money—the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) said there are 600,000 people in severe poverty—their 1% increase cannot be compared with a school teacher, for example.”
“Such increases cannot be compared with how a Member of Parliament is able to sustain small increases. There is no comparison between what someone in severe poverty is able to cut and the situation faced by public sector workers, despite their currently being hard pressed, as many will testify.”
“We have heard a lot of talk about universal credit but we still lack a lot of the detail. Given the record of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the most catastrophic Work programme in history, if I were the hon. Gentleman I would not have much confidence in the success of the policies pursued by the Secretary of State until he has seen what the Government deliver.”
“That is an incredibly powerful point. My hon. Friend probably thinks—as I do—that we are being given so little time to scrutinise those issues because this is an entirely political Bill. It is not an economic Bill or something put together and discussed on the Floor of the House because the law needs to be changed. It is being done for entirely political reasons, and the minute that the Opposition said—to their tremendous credit—that they were going to oppose it, the posters were already up and ready because they had been designed in advance. This was an entirely political manoeuvre that had nothing to do with comments that might be made by the United Nations or any of the details of it. I want to return to the issue of benefits rising faster than earnings.”
“I am pleased to see the hon. Gentleman in his place. The past two times that he has been billed to appear he has not actually been present, so now that that he is here I will definitely allow him to intervene. However—perhaps he will reflect on this—the central point of the whole debate seems to be that benefits claimed by someone on £71 a week can be compared with the earnings of a school teacher or a doctor in a hospital, and that a 1% rise is the same to someone on jobseeker’s allowance as to someone working in the public sector. Will the hon. Gentleman at least accept that they are not the same thing?”
“There is a particular irony in the Chancellor, who was a millionaire the day he was born, railing against the extravagance of those on £71 a week. The debate needs to be put in proper context.”
“It is almost as though the last two minutes of my speech did not exist. I had answered the hon. Gentleman’s point before he made it and I have no idea why he felt the need to intervene when I had specifically dealt with that issue— [ Interruption. ] I have already dealt with that point. We just cannot compare what 1% means to someone on £70 a week with what it means to a doctor. People on poverty money and in severe poverty have not got lots of options as to what they can cut back. They cannot decide, “Well, I’m only going to have one holiday this year”, as those whose jobs are more lucrative might be able to do. Interruption. ] I have reflected on that point and I think I have answered it at some length.”
“Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) to take that principled stance.”
“I will take further interventions, but I would like to crack on a bit now. The 1% increase comes on top of a raft of difficult choices on benefits, including housing benefit cuts, tax credits cuts and council tax benefit cuts, at a time when there is increasing poverty, including severe poverty and child poverty. Specifically, there is an increase in poverty among those in work. That is the context in which this debate is held, and the reason why the Labour party has taken the stance it has. No one should be in any doubt that, in taking that stance, the Labour party recognises that there is tremendous contention about benefits, and that many feel just like the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) and his constituent. I recognise that many people in many communities feel that way, and therefore how difficult it was for my right hon.”
“My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. Perhaps Government Members’ strategy is to follow Mitt Romney, who said that anyone who receives any welfare should be written off because they will never vote for the right-wing party. It did not work particularly well for Mitt Romney, but perhaps that is the electoral strategy of the hon. Member for Gloucester.”
“The hon. Gentleman is about to tell us what he will do for the 8,600 people in his constituency who will be worse off as a result of the vote he will cast tonight.”
“The hon. Gentleman was silent on the 8,600 people in his constituency who will be worse off as a result of the vote he will cast tonight, but the Opposition’s proposals are clear in the amendment. I will touch on this in more detail, but one interesting thing is the extent to which the Chancellor, for reasons best known to himself, has chosen to handcuff himself to a level of benefit increase for year after year when he has no idea what the level of inflation will be—the hon. Member for St Ives made that point.”
“The council is budgeting for a situation in which around a third of them will fall into arrears—their housing-related benefits will be reduced and they will no longer have enough to pay their rents—and the Government are increasing the discretionary payment to allow councils to meet the costs of some who fall into that situation, which is a totally illogical policy. People who have been council house tenants for many years will fall behind, and the Government will give money to councils to bail them out. At the same time, the Government will hit them on housing and council tax benefit, and on tax credits. They are saying, “Those payments have already been cut, but they will now be increased by less than the rate of inflation.””
“Let me make more progress before I let hon. Members intervene again. One issue I have raised previously in the context of the Bill is housing benefit changes. Last week, I met Chesterfield borough council officials to discuss the impact of the bedroom tax, which will hit people across Chesterfield in April. The council knows it faces a time bomb as people who cannot afford to pay their rents are told that there is a shortage of smaller properties for them to move to. Many of those people are at the back end of their working careers, and are either not working or in part-time employment.”
“I welcome any measure that makes people better off, but the hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong if he thinks those being lifted out of tax are the lowest paid—they are not. Many who are earning less than them will get no benefit from the increase in the tax threshold. The people being lifted out of tax are not the lowest paid, although I recognise that they are on modest incomes.”
“One point I have laboured is that hon. Members cannot compare in percentage terms the difference the Bill will make for someone on £70 a week and someone on £35,000 a year. The hon. Gentleman seems to be attempting to make such a comparison, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) related previously—”
“I will answer the ill-advised point made by the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) before I take another intervention. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead has said, in cash terms—we should bear in mind that we buy food and clothing for our children with cash— people on benefits have had an increase of £12 a week; at the same time, working people have had an increase of £49 a week. It is impossible to make the comparison in simple percentage terms. That is one of the central points of my speech, but I have dwelt on it rather too much. I keep returning to it because hon. Members who intervene seem not to hear it.”
“The Thatcher Government introduced the right to buy. That was a good thing, but they did not have a corresponding scheme to replace the social housing that was lost, and there was chronic under-investment in the remaining stock. The Blair Government rightly prioritised the refurbishment of social housing up to the decent homes standard over building new homes, but many Labour Members believe they took too long to take the housing shortage seriously. Although much of that was hidden during the good times, the welcome steps introduced by the Brown Government were too late and too slow to stop the housing crisis from escalating. Whomever we blame for the huge inflation in private rents, the people who claim housing benefit, whether they are working or not, are not to blame.”
“I will crack on, because I have not taken a useful intervention from Government Members yet, and other hon. Members want to speak. Many of the people I meet who face this financial calamity on the horizon have worked most of their lives. The people I meet who have worked for 30 years and then gone on to benefits are overwhelmed not by the generosity of benefits, but by the difficulty of getting by. They believe there must be an alternative benefits system that is incredibly generous—that is the one they read about in the papers—because it is tough to get by on the benefits that they receive. When we talk about the benefit bill, the most fundamental question we must confront is where the money goes. Most of it goes not into the pockets of benefit recipients, but into the pockets of landlords.”
“That’s not enough. We need to think of poverty in relative terms, the fact that some people lack those things which others in society take for granted. So I want this message to go out loud and clear: the Conservative party recognises, will measure and will act on relative poverty.” That is the manifesto on which Conservative Members were elected, and that was what they used to believe, but that is what they will vote against tonight when they support the Bill and reject the very reasonable amendment moved by my right hon. Friend the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms).”
“The 1% uplift is nothing but a blunt political instrument designed to create a political trap that has nothing to do with a nuanced benefits system, with all its complexities. The Child Poverty Action Group has said that the 200,000 increase set out in the written answer from the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) should be added to the increase of 800,000 in children in relative income poverty by 2020 that the Institute for Fiscal Studies found in its analysis of the coalition’s welfare cuts. Let us remind ourselves of what the Prime Minister used to say about relative poverty. In 2006, he said: “I believe that poverty is an economic waste and a moral disgrace. In the past, we used to think of poverty only in absolute terms—meaning straightforward material deprivation.”
“I will try to plough on if I may, because many hon. Members want to speak, and I sense the Opposition deputy Chief Whip—my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell)—glaring at me with intent. In a raft of ways, tax credits cuts will hit people on low to middle incomes. By anyone’s definition, they are the thrifty, hard-working strivers that people across the political divide recognise are key to the country’s future prosperity, but they will be badly hit by the Bill. Once again, women and children will be hit worst of all. The Government’s strivers tax will hit women particularly hard—4.6 million women who receive child tax credit will be hit by the strivers tax, including 2.5 million working women. All those will come together as the perfect storm.”
“The right hon. Gentleman just described his amendment as a Liberal Democrat amendment. Can he confirm that all the Liberal Democrats will vote for it?”
“As the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) said, the Chancellor sets a Budget every single year, and the benefit uprating will have to be relevant to whatever else has happened in the economy by taking into account inflation, wage inflation and so on. There is no need for this Bill now because we have a Budget every single year. Surely that is the central point.”
“On a point of order, Mr Amess. The Minister is misquoting me, so let me clarify this. I said that if it was all about stability, why do we have a Budget every year instead of setting three-year budgets, which would reflect that fact?”
“Was my hon. Friend as surprised as I was to hear that the initial consultation has been replaced by a subsequent one which is suggesting doubling the number of hubs? I welcome the fact that there was some element of listening, but it suggests that the original plans were miles away from what was safe for the people in the east midlands.”