Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,898 lines we hold for Mr Toby Perkins, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 56 of 78.
“Within that, there is a role for examining the overall way in which UK Export Finance works, but I would be hesitant at this stage about saying that, on that basis, the amendment of the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion should be supported. She may be minded to explore the issue today and consider whether to push it to a future stage. On amendment 92, we strongly agree with the principle that Ministers should be accountable to Parliament for their performance in supporting businesses, and I accept what the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion said about not wanting a series of meaningless measures with things being deregulated just for the sake of deregulation.”
“That was a bizarre contribution in a number of ways. First, we have said we are going to support what the Government are doing so he was factually wrong in that regard. But saying that by giving a single example of how it might work I was suggesting that that example would always work in every single case is a complete straw man. That contribution did not take us anywhere, so let us move on. In Committee we tabled amendments that would have required the Secretary of State to initiate an independent assessment of the functions on export finance and how to improve awareness of the body. Unfortunately the Government did not accept our amendments. But the next Labour Government will make it a central mission to boost exports.”
“Although many people will of course race off to Hansard to catch up on this debate, some, unbelievably, may not. Is it not entirely wrong that a business could have a term of 180 days, pay “on time”—that is, within those 180 days—and be seen as a signatory to the prompt payment code? All we are proposing in new clause 3 is that if they do not pay within 60 days, they should not be considered part of the prompt payment code.”
“I am pleased to hear what the Minister has said about new clause 3 and the prompt payment code. Given those assurances, we will not press new clauses 3 and 4 to a vote. I hope that we can continue to work together constructively on late payments, because that is a key issue for small businesses.”
“I am delighted my hon. Friend has secured the debate, which is incredibly important for my constituents. Does she agree that one of the big impacts on local bus services has been the massive cuts to local government, particularly in northern areas where local authorities have seen massive cuts to the subsidies they can provide for unprofitable services? People are able to get a bus to work during rush hour but are not able to get one home when their shift finishes. Is there not just a responsibility on the Minister here, but on the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles)?”
“I am very grateful that the Secretary of State has chosen to do that, and he will know that many of his constituents choose to do that. However, if they choose to do so on Derbyshire’s bus services, they would probably not recognise the description he has just given. Will he at least recognise that many people in our constituencies—old people, who really rely on bus services, and people who cannot get to work without them—would not recognise the rosy picture he is attempting to paint?”
“My hon. Friend makes an important point. We heard earlier about how miners were pushed into dependency on benefits, but the other tragic legacy of the miners’ strike was the number of miners who were criminalised by what happened. Will my hon. Friend say something about the impact on proud people when they were told that they were criminals because of what happened in that miners’ strike?”
“Following cost overruns on other electrification projects, Network Rail has said that it is reconsidering all electrification projects. Commuters in Chesterfield will be very concerned that that will mean delays or reductions to the midland main line project. Will the Secretary of State therefore confirm that the only review the Government are undertaking is about ensuring that they are on time and on budget next time, and not about cutting or delaying that important project?”
“I congratulate my right hon. Friend and the Prime Minister on what has been said so far today. It is vital for the sense to be felt that the entire House is behind our troops when they are out performing in this way. My right hon. Friend has spoken powerfully about the fact that this is not a war on Islam, and we are all very conscious of the scars that remain from the past. Will he say a little more about what he, as Leader of the Opposition, will do to ensure that our Muslim communities here recognise that this is not a war on them, and that it is absolutely about protecting Muslims as well as people back here in the United Kingdom?”
“The Opposition very much welcome the news that the Government are bringing forward a new pubs code in the small business Bill—we would, because we have asked for it on three occasions, and the Secretary of State has voted against it. He will know that there is concern that the appeals mechanism gives tenants the opportunity to have a “Here’s what you could’ve won” review of their appeal without any right to question it. There is also a sense that the small, family-owned brewers are being brought into a problem that they did not make. What representations has he had on the Bill, and can he give us any assurances that it will satisfy people who are worried about our pubs, so that we do not have to keep returning to the issue, and so that the industry has certainty on what the future in the next Parliament will look like?”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend and his team on securing this debate. It is incredibly important that parents across the country know that their child’s experience is not an isolated one and how serious the situation has become. When I read the list of schools with extra-large classes, I was surprised to find my own daughter’s school on it. This is happening in schools across the country, and parents are not aware of how terrible the situation has become.”
“The right hon. Lady is comparing the situation now with that under the previous Government. She will be aware that in Leicestershire, the county she represents, there were 2,376 children in infant classes in January 2014, compared with just 1,000 before. The figure has gone up by 121%. Does not that show that, under this Government, things have got significantly worse since 2010?”
“The Government seem to be determined to take education back to some mythical golden age when children learned everything they needed to by rote.”
“It would be helpful to hear from the Minister whether there is a strategy for class sizes or whether the problem that we are bringing to the attention of the Government is recognised by them. The evidence on the importance of reducing class sizes has been available since 1982, when a study by an American laboratory for educational research concluded that reductions in class size “promise learning benefits of a magnitude commonly believed not within the power of educators to achieve.” Thirty years later and much closer to home, studies have shown that class sizes of more than 30 are particularly damaging for children of low ability or for those with special needs. Small class sizes are central to Labour’s vision of what a world-class and inclusive early-years environment should include.”
“Much of the debate has focused on numbers, and will continue to do so. Those include the number of classes with more than 30 or 35 pupils. Shockingly, in my constituency, there are even classes with more than 40. I want to start by looking behind the numbers and discussing why large classes matter to pupils, parents and schools. It has not been clear to me, listening to the contributions from Government Members, whether they consider the increase in class sizes to be a problem. We have heard a lot of denials and the blaming of immigrants, and we have heard a variety of reasons why it is not the Government’s fault, but we have not heard whether this result was the design of Tory party policy or whether it is something they regret.”
“When I suggested that they could join the governing body of the school in their catchment area and see whether they could improve that, I was told, “Well, it is a bit of a risk.” So I said, “You are setting up a school that doesn’t exist, that has no teachers, that has no building, that has no other pupils and that has no facilities. That is not ‘not a risk’, is it?” [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) is shouting “yes” and he has a free school in his constituency that is half empty. We heard the Education Secretary saying today that a new free school that was due to be set up has, in the middle of September, when most pupils—”
“Worse, the Government’s unfettered and ideological free school programme has diverted funding away from areas that need school places most. Instead, we have heard of the disgraceful situation where free schools have been set up in areas with an oversupply of infants schools and are sat there half empty. Some people who were planning to set up a free school in Chesterfield came to see me at one of my surgeries. I said to these two parents, “So why do you want to set up a free school?” They said, “We don’t think we can get our kids into Brookfield. We want our kids to go there.” So this entire school was being set up because they could not get their children into one school, even though there were other schools they could get into.”
“Remarkably, the Labour Government actually achieved that a year early; by 2001 it was clear that it would be met. I cannot imagine that many of the promises made by the current Government will be achieved a year early—they will certainly not be achieving what they promised on the deficit. Unfortunately, those achievements have been thrown away by this Tory-led Government, particularly by two specific policy mistakes they have made. Whereas Labour outlawed class sizes going beyond 30 for children aged four to seven, so that if a class did go above 30 in one year it had to be brought back down the following year, this Tory-led Government relaxed those rules so that class sizes can be above 30 for several years—we heard the Secretary of State proudly boasting about that today.”
“In the 2010 manifesto, he promised “small schools with smaller class sizes” That incarnation of David Cameron—oh, how long ago it seems—understood that every extra pupil adds to a teacher’s work load, with extra marking and planning, and means less time to be spent on pupils. If we want primary education to be about more than just presenting something to pupils, class size is important. Smaller classes mean more attention per pupil and more opportunity for children to develop their analytical thinking skills. That is why the last Labour Government made class sizes such a priority and made such great strides on this issue. In 1997, as one of our five key pledges ahead of the election, Labour promised to cut class sizes to 30 or under for five, six and seven-year-olds by September 2002.”
“Sadly, it is consistent with how out of touch the Government have been on education and a raft of other issues throughout their time in government. It is not the fault of Ministers in this Government that the education team was entirely privately educated and that does not prevent them individually from being perfectly good Ministers, but when the basis of their education policy is founded on such a narrow and misguided view of what schoolchildren in my constituency experience, I cannot help but think that a wider perspective across the team would help their approach to be slightly more grounded in reality. Let me return specifically to class sizes. The old “hug a hoodie” David Cameron used to get it. Back in 2008, when he was still a modern Conservative, he told the Yorkshire Post that “the more we can get class sizes down the better”.”
“It stated: “A Conservative government will give many more children access to the kind of education that is currently only available to the well-off: safe classrooms, talented…teachers, access to the best curriculum…and smaller schools with smaller class sizes with teachers who know the children’s names.” I do not know about other MPs, but as someone who has been a councillor, a school governor and a parent in Chesterfield over the 13 years of Labour government I find that description, as though that was what schools were like back in 2010, downright offensive. It seems to be a view of our education system based on the views of someone whose only experience of schools was what they had read in the Daily Mail . But that was how the Tory party represented what education looked like back in 2010.”
“Any MP who has taken the time to visit their local schools cannot fail to be moved by the pressure put on our schools by this out-of-touch Government, but the seeds of that educational approach should have been revealed to anyone who took the time to read the Conservative party manifesto, which was referred to a few minutes ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central.”
“On the subject of the vision for education held by the previous Education Secretary before his dismissal—I am sure that my two colleagues on the Front Bench are not the only people sitting on a Front Bench at the moment who were pleased to see him disappear—this Government’s approach has led, in my experience, to a demoralised teaching work force, a betrayal of the Government’s rhetoric when they came to office of a commitment to the early years, and a fragmented landscape that has seen enfeebled local authority provision, schools driven unwillingly into becoming academies and the appalling realisation that although money has flowed towards free schools, often in areas that had sufficient demand, there has been a 200% increase in the number of infant pupils taught in classes sized over 30.”
“That is interesting, as not long ago we heard the Secretary of State talking about class sizes of 70 happening now. I do not recognise that as something that the Labour party wants to see, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) has secured this debate because he wants to make it absolutely clear that the Labour party’s commitment back in 1997 to rescue our schools from the catastrophic and mediaeval state they were in after 18 years of Tory government burns in his heart. He wants a reduction in class sizes and to get away from the huge increases we have seen under this Government.”
“Let me just finish the point. The Education Secretary was talking about a school in Leicester that, at a time when most children all around the country are going back to school, has been told that it cannot open, and 69 children are left without a school. She says, “Well, we have to get these things right.” The Government should have looked at that when they were going through all these proposals and giving the money to set up the free school. That is the basis of this education policy.”
“For anyone who remembers the huge class sizes that we had under the last Tory Government—the one that actually won a general election—those figures will come as no surprise.”
“Across Derbyshire, the number of infant school pupils who are in classes with more than 30 children has increased by 117% since this Government came to office. A freedom of information request to the Department for Education exposed the full scale of the class-size growth scandal. How pitiful the Prime Minister’s promise to cut class sizes now looks. In Chesterfield, schools are grappling with class sizes that were absolutely unimaginable under a Labour Government. Hollingwood primary school has one class of 36; Hasland Hall infant school a class of 39; Abercrombie primary school a class of 44; and Walton Holymoorside, just over the border in North East Derbyshire—it is the school to which my own children went—a class of 36.”
“National Audit Office reports demonstrate that fully two thirds of all of new places created by the free schools programme have been created outside the areas with the most need. Extraordinarily, that has left some local authorities in a position where they want to build a new school to manage a primary places crisis, only to be told that the Department for Education will allow a new school to be built only if it is a free school and only to find out that nobody wants to build a free school in that area. That approach is utterly against the best interests of our children. Free schools were supposed to fill gaps in the market, but they are in fact doing the opposite and are stacked up in places where there is already sufficient demand. We have seen the consequence of that approach in my constituency.”
“The hon. Gentleman talks about a divisive education system, but I have never seen a more divided education system than the one that has been set up by this Government. We have seen an incredibly divided, fragmented system. We have seen schools that do not want to be academies forced into it because they cannot afford to be anything else but academies. The Opposition made it absolutely clear that we support parents getting involved in their schools, but the ideological approach of setting up free schools in a place that already has adequate supply and at the same time seeing infant class sizes at the disgraceful level that has been discussed in this debate is an utterly divisive way to approach education policy.”
“Alternatively, they can choose a Labour future where we transform standards with a qualified teacher in every classroom, a commitment to every child, new schools where they are needed most and real action on class sizes. Why wait until next May to give parents that choice? No one wanted this Government, not even most of those who are in it. Our children deserve better, so let us have a general election.”
“You tried to bring in the private sector to support some of the building of the schools and you shouldn’t have done that.” Tory Governments always end the same way—divisions over Europe leading to paralysis, waiting times in the NHS reaching critical levels, hollowed out local government unable to serve the needs of their local communities, and six-year-old children being educated in classes of 44. We can change the faces but they are all still Tories. The choice for the British public at the next general election is clear. They can back the ConDems, get an ideological commitment to expensive free schools, a refusal to retain laws that keep class sizes down, weakened local authorities, demoralised teachers, a fragmented system that betrays our children and the threat of ever more children crammed into large class sizes.”
“Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) complaining about the private finance initiative took my breath away. The reality is that in 1997, the Labour Government inherited a state education system that had been chronically underfunded. The quality of the school estate was disgraceful. Over 10 years, the Labour Government had to pay off the deficit that had been left behind by the previous Conservative Government. At the same time that we were radically trying to improve our health service and education system, we were also reducing the deficit that had been left. It is absolutely outrageous for the Tories then to say, “It’s a shame you didn’t pay for it all out of Government funds.”
“That is a very interesting way of putting it. The education provided by my children’s school was very good. The hon. Gentleman seems to be making the case that class sizes do not have a lot to do with the quality of education. If that is the case, then he will obviously be saying to the voters in Daventry, “Vote Conservative to get higher class sizes.” Evidence suggests that class sizes are an important factor. Anecdotal evidence from teachers points to the fact that they find it a lot more difficult to perform their role in huge classes. Obviously, he is making an alternative case, and he will have to take that to his electorate and see what they think about it. As I was saying a moment ago, anyone who remembers the huge class sizes under the last Tory Government will not be surprised by these facts. The speech by the hon.”
“I am very interested in the topic that the hon. Lady is talking about. She is obviously very concerned about the education of children in Norfolk. What would she say to the parents of the 283 extra children now being taught in classes of more than 30 in Norfolk under this Government? What would she say to them about their educational chances, because they are being failed by this Government, are they not?”
“My hon. Friend talks about choice. Is there not a difference between the experience of some of his constituents who have three children all going to different schools and that of the entire Government, who all seem to have been to the same school?”
“I am prompted to rise to my feet by my hon. Friend’s mention of the Liberal Democrats. I wonder whether he would like to reflect on the fact that we have had a debate on schools with not a single contribution from a Liberal Democrat Member. Is it not remarkable, when we think of what the Liberal Democrats once were, that we can get through an entire debate on education without a single Liberal Democrat thinking it worth actually turning up and speaking?”
“People throughout Britain have been absolutely appalled by the scenes in Gaza, Iraq and Syria this summer. What impact have all the Foreign Office resignations and the removal of the Foreign Secretary, at an incredibly difficult time for the Foreign Office, had on the British Government’s capacity to respond?”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. He may be about to mention this, but will he clarify something? Is he saying that we need two extra public holidays or that he wants to reallocate existing bank holidays so that they come at the right time to recognise these festivals?”
“This important debate should be a stepping stone towards greater diversity and social cohesion. If we are able to achieve that, it will have been a very important debate indeed.”
“In conclusion, I look forward to hearing to the Minister’s response to those questions. I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East for securing the debate and for the manner in which he introduced this incredibly important topic. It may be that we are not able to deliver precisely what he calls for, but I hope that the debate has provided an opportunity for us to recognise the issues facing people in Hindu, Muslim and Sikh communities, and for us to think not only in legislative terms, but also about Government guidance and leadership, to ensure that the maximum number of people get to celebrate such festivals. This country should continue to be diverse and we should go as far as we can to recognise people of all faiths, and to ensure that their right to celebrate their faith is not economically or culturally undermined in any way.”
“What discussions have the Government had with business groups and trade bodies to maximise the opportunities for Muslim, Hindu and Sikh worshippers to celebrate their festivals? What efforts have been made to promote awareness of different faiths and of the importance of these festivals among employers? Has any review of bank holidays taken place under this Government or are there plans for such a review? What is the Government’s latest assessment of the benefits and costs to the UK economy of additional bank holidays? What are the Government’s thoughts about ensuring that bank holidays fall on days on which the largest number of people will want to celebrate, so that they are seen as inclusive rather than exclusive? How can the Government use bank holiday policy to bring different communities together?”
“It may well be that people of all faiths in Harrow are aware of Eid and Diwali, but there may be less awareness in other areas with smaller but no less important communities of people who celebrate such festivals. As a result, employers in such areas may not be thinking about how they work with people of all faiths to ensure that they get the opportunity to celebrate their festivals. I have several questions on this incredibly important topic and am interested in the Minister’s response. What assessment has she made of the number of bank holidays in Britain? What assessment have the Government made about whether holidays are spaced in the most effective way? Is the balance right?”
“It is important to recognise that the UK has significant numbers of Sikhs and Jews and growing populations of other religions, so our response to the debate has to be about how to do more to recognise their contributions. We should work with employers to ensure that they bear important festivals in mind when allocating work and shifts. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills should show leadership, working with organisations such as British Chambers of Commerce and the Federation of Small Businesses, in particular in areas that have smaller numbers of people from those religious groups and where awareness might not be so great.”
“The plans were eventually not followed through because of the difficulties involved. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the cost implications, and it is fair to say that the margin of error is pretty broad. Some argue that there would be a net benefit to the UK economy of as much as £1.1 billion, but some believe that the economy would face a net loss of £3.6 billion. The most recent Department for Culture, Media and Sport assessment that I have seen suggests a £1.2 billion loss to the economy. He rightly referred to the report from the Centre for Economics and Business Research, which contains different figures, but the cost implications are important. The irregular nature of the suggested new Eid and Diwali public holidays would also pose particular challenges.”
“Huge numbers of people in my constituency and many others are earning less in insecure work and are paying more for the things that they rely on. The Opposition therefore share his concern about productivity and about doing more to make work pay. The issue’s time has come and it will be a central part of the Labour party manifesto. He was right to say that the issue is important, but my opinion differs on whether the Government have a tremendous track record. On the substantive points in the hon. Gentleman’s speech, the question of how many bank holidays we should have is not new. Creating new bank holidays is not simple, which the previous Government found out when considering the creation of a new bank holiday for St George’s day. It was also a problem when there were plans to create a VE day bank holiday.”
“It is almost as if he shares the view that the French do not know the meaning of entrepreneur, but I am sure that he would not want to go down that route. It is important to recognise that this country is neither uniquely blessed in terms of holidays, and nor are we are we particularly badly off when compared with most of our competitors. The hon. Gentleman said one incredibly important thing—that a happy work force is a productive work force. He said it in the context of a bit of a party political statement, but I share his view. He will be as disappointed as I am that productivity has fallen significantly over the past four years, that we have a surfeit of zero-hours contracts, that an ever-increasing number of people are leaving work and heading down to food banks, and that the number of people in work and in poverty is increasing.”
“Those from the United Kingdom have an average of 28 days. The UK figure usually means a minimum of 20 days plus eight statutory holidays, so we are actually slap bang in the middle of the range of days that employers in major economies allow employees to have. While the hon. Gentleman is right to say that we have the lowest number of days when we are all off on the same date—as someone who has recently been attempting to book a summer holiday, I am conscious of the fact that it is not always a good thing for us all to have holidays at exactly the same time—it is important to put it on the record that our number of holidays is not extreme one way or the other. Having claimed that he was not going to do so, the hon. Gentleman made a bit of a jibe at the expense of French workers.”
“Gentleman pointed out that Britain has fewer public holidays than most other countries, but that is potentially misleading due to the difference between public holidays and the number of days that workers have away from work. On the basis of what he said about happy workers being productive workers, he will celebrate that the previous Labour Government introduced the statutory right to a minimum of 20 days holiday. An analysis of the number of days of holiday that employers allowed their workers versus the number that they took placed the Japanese at the bottom of the list with an average of 16 days allowed holiday per annum. Next were those from the United States with 17 days, then came New Zealanders with 19.5 days, Canadians and Australians came next with 20 days, and the Swedish and the Germans were found to have 27.5 days.”
“One of them was that a recognition of the significance of the festivals—he was talking about that in the context of a public holiday, but it is important to recognise their significance anyway—is part of a recognition that Muslims’ and Hindus’ faith is an important part of their contribution to our country and their make-up. We cannot celebrate their contribution, as we all do across the House, without recognising that those festivals are an important and integral part of their faith and that their faith is an integral part of their being. I am glad that he put that point on the record. It is one that I absolutely support. The hon.”
“Perhaps we should think more specifically about how schools can work more productively to recognise that some children will on occasion be off school because of festivals. We should look at how we can work with them to catch up outside of that time. It goes in the opposite direction of Government policy to say that all children should have more time off from school by creating an extra bank holiday when the problem that that tries to address is that children from those communities are already taking that time off. It would fly in the face of other Government policies. The hon. Gentleman made a number of points with which I strongly agree.”