Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
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“Like other Conservative Members, the hon. Gentleman seems to be celebrating the fact that, under a Government that have seen the rich get much, much richer and the poor get much, much poorer, the rich are actually starting to pay more tax. Would it not be better not only if the top 20% paid more tax, but if the bottom 20% actually got wealthier rather than poorer?”
“The Leader of the House is clinging to the defence that he is using today, but it is clear that the Secretary of State for Justice wants people to believe that he was the source and that the story is true. Given that the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Sir Nicholas Soames), whom we all respect tremendously on such matters, considers this to be treason, the Leader of the House’s rather flippant approach massively undermines the importance of this important role.”
“I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his consistency on this subject. He stood for election in May. He will have known that some Conservative Members would have liked to bring forward such a measure. He must have been reassured that it was not in the Conservative manifesto. As a democrat, how would he be able to face his constituents if he had chosen to vote for the measure, given that his views are so well known and that the Conservative party had not put it in its manifesto?”
“Does the Secretary of State agree with the Prime Minister that leaving the EU may bring refugee camps to the streets of Britain, and what more can he tell us about the ways in which he believes the EU helps us to keep Britons safe? Once again, we salute British servicemen and women who are making the world safer and fairer. The Government must make sure that we have a strategy in place to ensure that—in the air, at sea and on the land—Britain can always answer the call.”
“That may be a reminder of the fact that the Royal Navy’s surface fleet has been reduced by a sixth since 2010. Does the Secretary of State feel that our naval resources are too stretched to play a larger role in this operation? Does he believe that, rather than protecting UK seas, the three Border Force vessels are in the Aegean because of the reduction in naval capacity caused by the 2010 strategic defence and security review? To that end, what more can he tell us about when the national shipbuilding strategy will report, and how quickly does he think the new class of lighter frigates to replace the Type 23s will be available to the Navy? The fact that NATO has joined what was previously an EU role further demonstrates the extent to which our role in the EU enhances our global security.”
“I am sure that the thoughts and gratitude of the whole House are with the men and women aboard RFA Mounts Bay as they join the NATO deployment in the Aegean sea. Once again, the crisis demonstrates how the British armed forces play a crucial role, not only in securing our domestic security but in contributing to peace and stability across the world. People trafficking is the world’s second largest form of organised crime, generating billions from the misery and suffering of some of the planet’s most desperate people. There is a real urgency not only to deterring and bringing to justice the people responsible, but also to deterring the victims from undertaking the perilous journey. Although we welcome the role that RFA Mounts Bay will play, it is a small contribution to a gigantic crisis.”
“The Minister is right to say that the statement by the International Syria Support Group is welcome. However, the actions of the Russians rather fly in the face of that, because they are signing up to a transition plan at the same time as bolstering the Assad regime. Can the Minister tell us the extent to which he believes that the Russians understand the level of transition that is required, and whether they recognise that the Assad regime needs to come to an end if Syria is to have a peaceful future?”
“As we consider these issues, our thoughts are very much with the brave members of our armed forces who are serving in the middle east, with all those who are living under the brutality of Daesh and with the victims of the terror attacks that have been carried out all over the world. The Secretary of State is absolutely right to say that we can simultaneously welcome the progress towards a ceasefire and the contributions that the Russians have made, and condemn the previous Russian attacks on the moderate forces that the coalition is working with. Will he tell us how reliable he feels the estimate of 70,000 moderate Syrian ground forces is at this moment in time?”
“Just two days ago, ISIS launched a series of attacks on the headquarters of the Kurdish forces in Tal Abyad, to the north of Raqqa. Given that we were hoping that the moderate forces were waiting to take the fight to Daesh, that is obviously very concerning. Will the Secretary of State tell us a little more about how effective he thinks UK airstrikes have been in achieving our objectives of weakening Daesh and supporting moderate forces to take back control and liberate Raqqa?”
“The case that my hon. Friend is making is absolutely right. The point is that Governments, on occasion, make mistakes. It is not too late for Ministers to stand at the Dispatch Box, put things right and end the misery of thousands of people—not only women, but their husbands, who are equally affected financially by the impact on the household. The Government could put that right.”
“The Prime Minister deserves credit for the deal he has got; I will be able to campaign for it with confidence. He is right to say that the three different leave campaigns are unable to say what leave would really look like, but given that he will have to do the negotiations in the event of an out vote, it is also incumbent on him to tell us what leave would look like. When he sets out the alternatives, will he explain specifically what leave, as well as stay, would look like?”
“The deal laid out by Mr Tusk is a good deal better than many Conservative Members may have expected. It will not make a difference to me—I will support Britain staying within the EU—and I suppose it will not make any difference to many Members sitting behind the Minister, as they would not countenance Britain staying in the EU under any circumstances. Ultimately, however, I hope that the deal, however it is arrived at, will be enough to persuade people who were undecided to come on board and back the campaign to remain within the EU, and to put Britain’s jobs and best interests first.”
“For someone who is obsessed about supporting small business growth, the Secretary of State’s Bill shows very little ambition. Can he say a little more about business rates, because the level of business rates is one of the major barriers to small businesses? It also impacts on manufacturing firms and retailers. Can he tell us more about what he will do to reduce the business rate bill of small businesses?”
“May I just take the Secretary of State back to the point about Sunday trading? I cannot remember a similar situation in which a Secretary of State has stood up and made a speech about a provision that is not even in his Bill but that he wished was in it. People are going to be voting tonight on the Bill’s Second Reading, and he is announcing measures that they are going to be asked to approve but which they might well be against, and which are not even in the Bill. Is not this entirely the wrong way to legislate?”
“As a former small business owner, I entirely endorse what my hon. Friend says. The problem with the Government’s proposal is not that they are attempting to tackle late payments but that it is an utterly inadequate attempt to tackle one of the great scourges of all business, but particularly small businesses—late payments.”
“My hon. Friend will be aware that a huge number of Members are not present in the Chamber. They may well have read the Bill and may be coming at 7 o’clock to vote on it. We know that a number of Government Members feel very strongly that, for Christian reasons, they do not wish to support further extensions to Sunday trading. They may well unwittingly vote for the Bill, not knowing what has been announced from the Government Dispatch Box.”
“Given how busy publicans are, they do not want to spend their time at the adjudicator. They want to be serving punters and getting on with running their business. What does the hon. Gentleman think it says about the way the industry is currently working if the setting up of an adjudicator creates the likelihood that it will be swamped because all those publicans are so unhappy?”
“Having read all the briefings and the Bill, he may very well walk into the Lobby at 7 o’clock in support of the Bill, without realising that he is actually supporting an extension of Sunday trading, as he would have heard had he been in the Chamber. He may very well be contacted by people who had previously been in touch with him, saying, “Why did you vote for Sunday trading?” He would reply that he did not know that he was doing so. How the Government are dealing with Sunday trading is an important democratic matter.”
“I start by drawing the attention of the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Whenever I hear the Secretary of State speak, I am struck by the fact that I am listening to someone who appears to believe that Government do not work very well, and that business always knows better than Government. Indeed, he has set out to prove that by bringing to us a Bill that does not even contain its most contentious element. I am very concerned about the Sunday trading legislation, both because the Government are heading in the wrong direction and because this is a really important democratic matter. The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) —he has not been with us today—is very passionately against any extension of Sunday trading.”
“No more business will be created; it will just be spread over a longer period. The period after 4 o’clock on a Sunday is vital to the convenience store sector, which is under incredible pressure.”
“I absolutely agree. We had long and very passionate debates about that during the last Parliament, particularly in the run-up to the Olympics, when the Government made what they said at the time was a short-term change to the Sunday trading legislation. I have an interest in this matter in that my son works at Morrisons and is often there on a Sunday. One thing that will happen—I have had very few representations in favour of this—is that the supermarkets, finding that the others are opening, will have to start to open. That will not add any extra business, but it will extend or spread out the shopping week. It will mean that people have to work very late on Sundays, and people wanting to work during the week will find there are fewer shifts available during the week.”
“There was a simple unfairness in the relationship between the major pub companies, with all the power they had, and the small individuals who owned a single pub, who often put their life savings into it, only to find that the information that they had going into the relationship was very misleading. As a result, those people often found that they were not in a position to get the deal that they thought they were signing up to. It was incredibly important that we came up with an arrangement where they had the opportunity, at certain trigger points, to say, “I don’t think this relationship is working for me. I’d like to take my chances on the open market and buy beers from wherever I can.””
“A similar case was made by NAPIT recently in respect of the electrical competent persons register and the lack of policing of building regulations. Part 7 includes measures on the pubs code. I was pleased to hear the Secretary of State say today that the Government have listened and learned from the discussions in another place, and that the four triggers that were originally put in place when the legislation passed in that famous defeat of the Government in the last Parliament will be retained in the pubs code. It is incredibly important that the code continues to operate in that way. It is important to remind Members who were not here in the last Parliament why we decided to legislate for the pubs industry in a unique way; we have not used that for any other industry.”
“I urge the Government and all members of the Bill Committee to look at how we can strengthen the proposals, because this is a matter of real importance. It always strikes me that the Secretary of State believes all regulation to be a bad thing. Recently, I met the UK Weighing Federation, which had a reception in Parliament. It said that the lack of policing of the regulations in the weighing industry leaves the UK market open to cheap foreign imports that are not compliant and that undercut good-quality British manufacturing. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) that we do not want unnecessary burdens, but we do want a regulatory regime that protects not only the consumer, but British businesses that are doing things in the right way.”
“The idea of a small business commissioner in itself is not a bad one—it may well deal with some of the disputes between suppliers—but the idea that it is the solution to late payments is entirely wrong. It will make very little difference to whether or not companies are paid late. The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) spoke about major companies that are setting out with purchasing terms of 90 or 180 days. They are paying after 90 days and they are not even late. The Government may say that, if companies do not pay within 60 days, they cannot be classified as a prompt payer under the prompt payment code, but these are relatively small measures. They do not provide legislative protection against major firms in the way that the amendment I proposed in the last Parliament would have done.”
“Those were far more powerful proposals, and I may encourage my Front-Bench colleagues to dust them off and have another look at them. Those serious legislative proposals would have outlawed late payment and removed the incentive for late payment. When discussing late payments, we must understand why they exist. Payments are made late because businesses like to keep the money in their account for the purposes of cash flow. There will be an opportunity for a small business to go off to the commissioner and report their customer, but in the course of that process the big company may well have paid the small business. That will not get the small business paid any quicker; it just puts in place a bureaucratic process.”
“I come to this subject as someone who ran his own small business for five and half years before entering this place and who spent the previous 20 years working in a range of medium-sized businesses—I was once a human being. I have also had the opportunity, as a shadow Business Minister, to debate many of the issues. I was struck by what the hon. Member for Derby North (Amanda Solloway) said about the impact of late payments on small businesses in particular. Late payments beget late payments: when someone receives payments late from their customers, they end up being late payers to their suppliers, and so it goes on. She is absolutely right to say that action needs to be taken. She may want to research the amendments that we tabled to the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill during the last Parliament.”
“The hon. Gentleman asks a legitimate question. All of those questions were debated at the time of the original legislation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn) said, a compromise was reached. The existing compromise is vital for the convenience store sector. The number employed in large Tesco, Morrisons or Sainsbury’s stores far outweighs the number employed in those other stores. I will not say anything more about that matter, but the exchange between the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and the Secretary of State entirely exposes the fact that many people do not entirely understand what they are being asked to vote for today.”
“I am very concerned about that and I think that we need to inspect it. We want to encourage investment into the industry, but it is wrong if publicans are being told that an investment that was basically just to tidy the place up means that they no longer have the MRO option. In summary, the Bill will do very little harm but will not do anything like the amount of good it could do. We have an opportunity to make it a Bill that is transformational for small businesses by ending the scourge of late payments, having a regulatory framework that really supports British businesses, and ensuring that publicans are supported and that small businesses have a fair opportunity to compete. At the moment, the Government are missing that opportunity. I hope that they put that right.”
“My hon. Friend is making an incredibly important case. Does she agree that there is a bitter irony in a Secretary of State, who obviously does not believe in government, spending £200,000 on employing consultants to come up to the northern powerhouse, shut the Sheffield office and move all the jobs down to London?”
“There is talk of substantial investment, but a substantial level of investment by a city-centre pub will be far greater than a substantial level of investment by a small pub on a street corner. Is it clear what the Government mean by substantial investment?”
“What the Minister is saying, and what she is setting out to do in regard to Sunday trading, is entirely wrong, but something even more important is happening here. For the first time ever, workers’ rights are being devolved, and will become different in different areas.”
“I am happy to look at the details of the Government’s proposals and to support evidence-based measures that discourage claims without merit and make sure they are not funded through legal aid.”
“We are all aware of the recent allegations of ambulance chasing by certain law firms, and the Prime Minister rightly said today that certain firms clearly have questions to answer. As we have heard, only this week 57 allegations of unlawful killing were dropped due to lack of evidence. That is 57 innocent soldiers who have had that hanging over their heads and have faced the prospect of prosecution for crimes of which they knew they were innocent. It is imperative that we do all we can to prevent that from happening again. However, using the alleged cases of ambulance chasing as an excuse to withdraw from the European convention on human rights seems to be the wrong approach.”
“The UK is among the countries with the highest human rights standards in the world, and we should be proud of being held to those standards. The work of IHAT, however, was initially due to be concluded in 2012. We are now in 2016, with the conclusion deferred at least until 2019. There is a genuine fear that IHAT is becoming exactly what it was designed to prevent: a drawn-out investigation that becomes a burden on valued members of the armed forces and the taxpayer alike. There is also a sense that the transparency and generosity of spirit evident in the setting up of the team is being abused by irresponsible law firms or malicious complainants. Although it is right to ensure that allegations are properly investigated, we also have to prevent abuse of the public purse and ensure that our justice system is not being systematically abused.”
“In November 2010, IHAT was given full investigatory powers by the coalition Government to ensure that the resulting investigations would be in keeping with the UK’s legal obligations under the European convention on human rights, and I share many of the concerns that hon. Members have raised today. It is important to re-emphasise that although we all have tremendous respect for our armed forces and the work they do, and although we are all conscious of the danger of malicious inquiries and the effect that they would have on the morale and stress of those serving, nobody in this debate has been arguing that our soldiers are above the law. We have to ensure that when serious allegations are made, they are properly investigated.”
“None of us should forget for a moment the debt of gratitude that we owe to our servicemen and women, nor should we lack humility about what we in this House have expected of them under the most trying circumstances imaginable. I turn to the purpose of establishing the Iraq Historic Allegations Team. Rather than begin a long drawn-out public inquiry, it was considered to be better for all parties concerned to deal with allegations on a case by case basis, managed by a dedicated team, to identify whether there were causes for concern and to manage the process in as timely a manner as possible.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) not only on securing the debate, but on his excellent contribution and the valuable perspective that he brought to the debate—I think it informed all of us. This important issue raises emotions and concerns among all hon. Members. It is a matter of tremendous national pride that Britain’s world-class armed forces are renowned across the globe for upholding the very highest military standards, so often while performing in the most dangerous of theatres, and are rightly acknowledged as being expected to conform to, and indeed as achieving, the very highest standards of ethical behaviour.”
“Do the Government think that a timetable of 2019 for concluding the work of IHAT is acceptable, and what steps are they taking to support and reassure servicemen and women who suddenly find themselves within the process? I want to reiterate our admiration for those who served in Iraq and assure the Government of our intention to support any practical steps that they can take to rebuild confidence in this process.”
“I ask the Minister the following questions. How can the Government guarantee that only individuals with a strong connection with the UK will have access to UK-funded legal aid? Will the Government consider applying a specific time limit or cut-off date relating to allegations of human rights abuse in Iraq? What more can the Minister tell us about the success the Government have had in prosecuting firms who make malicious complaints, as the Prime Minister referred to today? Can she tell us what steps will be taken to enforce that approach and what criteria will be used to decide that a complaint is without merit? What impact do the Government believe the process is having on morale, on the stress levels of people who served in Iraq and on recruitment and retention within the Army, both among those who served in Iraq and more generally?”
“I do not have time. I believe that measures such as re-examining the current eligibility criteria for legal aid, or the development of a residency test for civil legal aid, would be very welcome. I know that I, like other Members, would have trouble explaining to my constituents in Chesterfield why an individual who has never set foot on British soil should be able to claim legal aid to bring civil legal action against a member of our armed forces at the UK taxpayer’s expense. Not only is the prospect of prosecution for an alleged historic crime traumatic for the serving soldier, but I am worried, as are other Members, that such a practice could act as a barrier to recruitment in future generations. For that reason, I am also interested to read the Government’s proposals on a time limit for individuals or firms to submit cases to IHAT.”
“I am glad to hear the Minister give his support to what the Prime Minister said about European co-operation. On that note, will he describe a single way in which less co-operation with our EU partners is going to increase our national security?”
“It is all very well for the Minister to say that, but the Typhoon Eurofighter project is just one example of how working together with our European partners creates thousands of jobs, boosts exports and secures crucial sovereign capability. Will the Minister, who is supposed to be a member of a Government that are looking to boost the UK defence industry, give us an example of a single UK defence industry manufacturer that boosts the UK leaving the European Union at the moment?”
“The Leader of the House may be aware that yesterday the House allowed my ten-minute rule Bill on the English national anthem to pass to Second Reading. Downing Street has briefed that it is open to allowing time for this to be properly pursued. It would be a great shame—there is a huge amount of interest in the subject—if when the Bill next comes before us, it is simply batted away without a debate or a vote. What steps can the right hon. Gentleman take to enable the voice of England to be heard and to decide on whether to have a different national anthem?”
“The song “Flower of Scotland” has been used as the national anthem by the Scotland rugby team before each of their defeats—or should I say matches?”
“I deliberately have not referred so far to the Bill’s implications for Northern Ireland. While the measure is specifically about England and would have no jurisdiction over Northern Ireland whatsoever, I am aware of considerable interest from Northern Ireland, to which I shall respond shortly. National anthems are a matter of convention. The British national anthem is accepted as being “God Save the Queen”, although that is not enshrined in law. The first team to sing a national anthem before a sporting contest was the Welsh rugby team in 1905, in response to the New Zealand haka. Since then, the Welsh tradition of singing “Land of my Fathers” has given an especially Welsh flavour to every sporting contest in which the team competes.”
“I will not say which area thought that the most appropriate choice for an English national anthem would be “Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now”—that will remain a secret between me and the listeners of BBC Radio Humberside—but that reflects the fact that each local area has its own sense of what Englishness means. When England play against other home nations on the football or rugby field, I often find it incongruous that while the Welsh and Scots sing an anthem that reflects the identity of their nations, England sings about Britain. That reflects a sense that we see Britain and England as synonymous, and it not only denies us English an opportunity to celebrate the nation that is being represented, but is a cause of resentment among other countries within the British Isles, which feel that England has requisitioned the British song.”
“Members for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) and for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), which shows that this is a real cross-party campaign. The Prime Minister has also shown sympathy with the argument for an English national anthem. The level of interest in the matter confirms that the movement for an anthem for England is one whose time has come. As is often the case, it is for us in Parliament to catch up with public opinion and allow the voice of England to be heard. I spoke to radio stations in all corners of England this morning, such was the interest in the debate about what our anthem should be. There were vox pops on the streets of towns far and wide, and each area reflected the specific differences of our multifaceted nation.”
“I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for an English National Anthem for use at sporting events that involve individuals or teams representing England; and for connected purposes. I am neither a republican nor an atheist, and nor am I am English nationalist. I shall say more about that theme shortly, but hon. Members should detect no hostility from me towards God, Her Majesty the Queen, “God Save the Queen” or the United Kingdom. Indeed, it is precisely out of respect for preserving many of those things that I believe that the time has come to consider the question of an English national anthem. I acknowledge the excellent work already done on the issue by the hon.”
“Whatever choice the people make, it will be the majority view, and we in this House can do no better than make sure that the voice of England is heard.”