Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,898 lines we hold for Mr Toby Perkins, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 14 of 78.
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. As others have done, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) on securing this debate. It is obviously on an issue that is of tremendous importance to a lot of us, and with National Apprenticeship Week approaching in early February, the timing could not be better. Labour believes that apprenticeships are the gold standard in skills development, and we would seek to increase both the number and the quality of apprenticeship opportunities under a future Labour Government, as well as promoting apprenticeships to students, workers, parents and employers I always say that the greatest advocates for apprenticeship opportunities are apprentices themselves.”
“We think there are many failings with that, and we are not alone on that. He also asked about how many Labour MPs employ apprentices. I do, and I am informed that my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale does too, but I am afraid I have not done an audit beyond that. He spoke about the importance of businesses and suppliers getting into schools.”
“Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan) spoke about the importance of pre-apprenticeship vocational opportunities. He is absolutely right. Labour will look to push the skills and growth levy towards traineeship and pre-apprenticeship opportunities, and allow businesses to use their levy in that way. The hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) was characteristically optimistic. He dismissed the fact that there are fewer apprenticeships than before. He said he has met employers who speak positively about apprenticeship opportunities, and he is absolutely right. He said that many employers never had the opportunity to offer apprenticeships before, but the reality is that the funding for apprenticeships was there. The Government have a different way of approaching it.”
“That would have meant that each student had three opportunities to see the alternatives to going to school sixth form. We think that independent careers guidance will play a really important role in that. The hon. Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond) said that many small businesses cannot access the levy. She is absolutely right. When the apprenticeship levy was introduced, an increased fund came in from the levy payers, but at the same time the Government massively reduced the amount they spent on apprenticeships. The result was that those that do not pay the levy are shut out. The Government are now allowing major businesses that pay the levy to donate some of their levy funds to their suppliers and others on a charitable basis, but it needs to be much more strategic than that. The hon.”
“I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point. He has corrected me on what he said, but it is none the less the case that fewer apprenticeships are now being provided across the board than before the introduction of the levy. Whether he said it or not, it was none the less factually correct. My hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) reflected, as he has done previously, on his own history as a careers adviser. He knows the importance of independent face-to-face careers guidance, which is one reason why the Labour party has made that such a priority. Other Members reflected on the fact that businesses and other apprenticeship suppliers are unable to get into schools. That is why, during the passage of the Skills and Post-16 Education Act 2022, we were keen to see the Baker clause introduced in another place.”
“In a recent report, the renowned think-tank EDSK argued for the need to expand the traineeship programme to promote the supply of entry-level opportunities and clear progression routes into genuinely high-quality apprenticeships. After the Government’s recent announcements, which set out that they are seeking to reduce the number of traineeships —I have spoken today to an employer who told me that they will have to abandon traineeships because of the Government’s current change—”
“It is no wonder that the CIPD said: “Apprenticeship Levy has failed on every measure and will undermine investment in skills and economic recovery without significant reform”. I meet so many small business owners who would be keen to take on an apprentice, but are put off by the lack of available support and the bureaucracy. There is a stark contrast between this Government’s approach and the approach of the Labour Government in Wales. My colleagues in Wales have led the way in creating apprenticeship opportunities, ringfencing an additional £18 million of funding to be invested in apprenticeships in the coming financial year.”
“Okay. I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. Britain is not alone in having a skills or apprenticeship levy, but the way we handle it is quite unique. As a result, there has been a dramatic fall in the number of entry-level apprenticeship opportunities. Research by the London Progression Collaboration shows that since 2014-15, entry-level apprenticeships have fallen by 72%, and the fall in apprenticeships for under-19s has been as much as 59%, depriving many of those at greatest risk of falling into poverty from the opportunity at the beginning of their careers to get an apprenticeship. The latest figures show that £3.3 billion in levy funds have been returned to the Treasury in the last three years. It is not only a scandal, but a huge act of collective self-harm.”
“I was just coming to the crescendo, Mr Hollobone. As I say, those from small towns or villages are less likely to find apprenticeships available. Those from black and ethnic minority backgrounds are less likely to be able to access an apprenticeship. In conclusion, a Labour Government will take a fresh approach. We will ensure that all funds allocated for skills are spent on skills and that apprenticeships are promoted to all and recognised as outstanding opportunities for young people, with more SMEs supported to offer them and more colleges equipped to teach them.”
“11. If he will make an assessment of the adequacy of GP appointment availability in (a) Chesterfield constituency, (b) Derbyshire and (c) England.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. We know that there are GP appointment difficulties everywhere, but we also know that it is much more difficult in more deprived communities. Social Market Foundation research shows that GPs in more deprived communities have twice as many patients on their books than those in more affluent areas. This means that, in addition to the greater health inequalities in those communities, people are finding it very difficult to get appointments, including at the Royal Primary Care practice in Staveley. Why should patients in more deprived communities be expected to tolerate far greater difficulties in getting GP appointments than those in more affluent areas?”
“With respect, the Minister is attempting to balance on the head of a pin when it comes to Richard Sharp’s involvement in the loan to the former Prime Minister. He may not have provided advice and he may not have arranged it, but he was clearly involved in the introduction. On that basis, should he not have made the declaration referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) when he appeared before the Committee?”
“With respect, the Minister’s response to this urgent question has been utterly pathetic. The truth is that the voluntary approach the Government have taken is not working, as has been said by Members on the Government Benches as well as on ours, so the question for the Minister is this: will he take action to prevent people from freezing to death this winter, or will he continue to have reviews when the emergency is now? Will he please show the urgency and the scale of response that is needed, and tell us that he will take the approach laid out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband)?”
“The Minister was a huge champion for the FE sector when he was Chair of the Education Committee, so it is depressing to hear him now speaking up for the Government. Their funding settlements for FE colleges are the worst in post-war history—and that is not just my view but that of the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies, whose analysis exposes that per-student funding fell 14% in real terms between 2010 and 2019. Is not the reality that, after 13 years of this Government, only the election of a Labour Government will allow our colleges to play the role that we truly need from them?”
“Whatever the manifold differences we have in this place, it is good that people across Ukraine and Russia will have heard once again the resolute message from all parts of the House. We support the Secretary of State’s move to donate the Challenger tanks, and we are resolute in saying that Putin’s aggression must fail. The Secretary of State said in his statement that the Challenger tank donation will help not only to resist the Russians, but to expel them. We have heard Ukrainian officials and the NATO Secretary-General saying that Russia is planning a major offensive this spring. Can the Secretary of State tell us what more the UK can do provide broad support beyond tanks to the Ukrainians to repel that major Russian aggression?”
“Have you or Mr Speaker been notified of the Department’s intention to make any statement on this matter, which is of great concern to my constituents, and if not, can you give me any advice about how we may be able to ensure that members of staff at Staveley Town Council are paid and that services continue to be provided while the authority attempts to extricate itself from the current crisis it is in?”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Staveley Town Council in my constituency, which is led by the self-styled Staveley Independents with the support of the Liberal Democrats, has in effect gone bankrupt. I am told that, since November, staff have either not been paid at all or have been paid late. If it was a tier 1 or tier 2 authority, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities would intervene, but as it is a parish or town council, I am told that no such mechanism is in place.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member on her speech. She is absolutely right about the impact that Brexit has had. That impact has perhaps been escalated and exacerbated by covid; a lot of migrant workers went home as soon as the pandemic began. Obviously, it is more difficult than before for others to come in, which has escalated the situation. I want to clarify what she is asking for by way of response. Am I right in saying that it is a 24-month visa, and an escalation of the schemes that she mentioned, within the confines of not returning to freedom of movement? Or is she saying that we should have a return to complete freedom of movement, and that anyone from the EU who wants to come and work here should be able to?”
“I absolutely share the right hon. Lady’s enthusiasm for apprenticeships, so I suspect she will be as concerned as I am that, since the introduction of the apprenticeship levy, the number of apprenticeships has fallen, and the number of apprentices in small and medium-sized enterprises has fallen massively. Companies that do not pay the apprenticeship levy are much less likely to do apprenticeships. Does she agree with me and the Labour party that we need to make the apprenticeship levy more flexible, and bring more small businesses under that regime?”
“On that point about basic skills, there was an incredibly successful Unionlearn programme, which enabled people who were in the workplace, whether they were members of a trade union or not, to access some of the basic skills they might not have got at school. It made a radical difference to people’s careers and their progression. Does my hon. Friend agree that getting rid of Unionlearn was a retrograde and politically motivated move and that we are paying a dear price for it?”
“We also propose establishing Skills England, to ensure courses and qualifications are of real benefit to learners and employers. The Government’s sticking-plaster solution to skills shortages is not working. It feels as though there has been a real desire to pit organisations against each other, rather than a collaborative approach, which would make a real difference. In conclusion, we envisage a confident and dynamic skills sector that is fit for purpose and able to react quickly to the challenges of the future, which include moving Britain to a greener economy, taking advantage of increasing automation and ensuring that home-grown talent is fully supported in a post-Brexit economy.”
“Labour has proposed the introduction of a skills and growth levy to replace the apprenticeship levy; 50% of that pot could be spent on other kinds of high-quality training, which would not necessarily have to be apprenticeships. That would provide support to people who might be pre-apprenticeship, perhaps through traineeships or other programmes. It would also support the massive transition towards a greener working environment by helping people to retrain; for example, motor vehicle engineers could retrain so that they could do mechanics on electric vehicles, and heating engineers could retrain so that they could move into installing heat pumps. Those are the kind of areas where we think greater flexibility would be relevant.”
“Their view is that there was a missed opportunity there for Scotland, but it is important to say that in both Scotland and Wales, things are happening on skills, but the same schemes are not available to English businesses. There is much we can learn in England from other Governments in the United Kingdom, as well as from our foreign competitors. In England, the apprenticeship levy has largely shut out too many small and medium-sized enterprises. It has hampered attempts to address skills shortages, particularly in sectors such as construction and engineering. In contrast, the Labour Government in Wales have just committed an extra £18 billion to be invested in apprenticeships, bringing the total to £140 million for apprenticeships across the country. Levy-paying businesses in England have often argued for greater flexibility.”
“She discussed hospitality shortages, as well as speaking very wisely about universities being engines for growth, and a part of our reskilling our economy and making it more productive. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran said that the Scottish Government are doing all that they can. Scottish Labour colleagues have told me about the national recovery plan that they proposed during the aftermath of covid, which would have guaranteed a job for every young person in Scotland. It would have meant investing in a national training fund and a business restart fund. They also told me of their comeback plan, under which there would have been investment in schools, and IT support in every primary and secondary school; they also wanted the creation of a community recovery fund, which would invest in local areas and make communities safer.”
“Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) spoke about the skills and labour shortages in his constituency, and talked about people being bussed in from Newry every week, which I understand is an hour away. It cannot make sense for people to have to do that. He was speaking up for his constituency. In her summing up, the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) spoke about the need to cut red tape. That is an irony for us all; we were told that moving out of the European Union was the answer to red tape, but of course this Government are just as capable of creating it. We totally share the hon. and learned Member’s view on apprenticeships, access to labour, the labour market and many other areas where the Government have been tremendously productive in creating, rather than removing, red tape.”
“Given that we have more vacancies than people unemployed, and about 1.5 million people who are not in either of those groups, the need to get more of those people back into the labour market is crucial. My hon. Friend said that the Government have narrowed the focus to much more vocational education, and she is right, but we have a huge reduction in the number of vocational routes that people can pursue now, so we are failing even on those narrower terms. She also spoke about the need for people to be able to retrain; she is absolutely right that many will need to do so. In 10 years’ time, people will be doing jobs that we have not even heard of today; many people will go through four, five or six careers in their working life, so the ability to learn and soft skills are more important than a narrow focus on vocational education. The hon.”
“She was absolutely right, but what she did not say was that the 19% increase in the next five years is still, at the current rate of inflation, a real-terms cut. It is—I will touch on this in more detail in a moment—a tiny step back up the mountain, given the reduction that there has been in apprenticeships. My hon. Friend also spoke about the journey from belly dancing to biochemistry. She is right that numerous people, particularly given the scale of the mental health crisis in this country, might return to education via flower arranging, belly dancing, or learning a foreign language or whatever, and will see that as part of their path back to the workplace.”
“When we look in more detail at the statistics, we see that there was a big increase when the Train to Gain programme was rebranded as an apprenticeship in 2010-11, but since the introduction of the apprenticeship levy, there has been a fall in apprenticeships, a big fall in the number of SMEs taking on apprentices, a big fall in the number of level 2 and level 3 apprenticeships, and a lot more apprenticeship spending being dedicated to MBAs at level 7, which I do not think any of us envisage when we talk about apprenticeships, so there are real problems with the apprenticeship levy, and the Labour party has ideas on that. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) spoke about the adult skills budget increase.”
“The non-levy payers have to scrabble around to find funding for apprenticeships, and have to hope for good will from an apprenticeship levy payer who might donate some of their levy spend, but that is not a coherent system in any way. The right hon. Lady was happy about the number of apprenticeships since 2010.”
“I always say that the greatest advocates for apprenticeships are apprentices, and those who see the difference that an apprenticeship has made to a young person’s life. She also spoke about the importance of apprenticeships in tech sectors, and I agree with her entirely on that. The Labour party would like greater flexibility around supporting people to get on to apprenticeships, and an ability to use the apprenticeship levy more flexibly. The right hon. Lady was absolutely right about the need to make things easier for small businesses. We are pretty unique in this country. The apprenticeship levy is not a unique idea, but we are the only country that has created a divide between levy payers and non-levy payers.”
“If we go back to 1950, the population in Scotland was 5.1 million. It has barely changed and is now 5.3 million, whereas in England the population has gone from 40 million to 58 million, so the context is different. It is therefore easy for Scottish MPs to say, “We want to return to freedom of movement”, but we are in a United Kingdom, and there are different needs in different areas. However, Scotland is not unique among the nations and regions of the United Kingdom; in the north-east, there has been very little population growth in that time, though there was a lot of population growth in London and the south-east. The right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) spoke passionately about apprenticeships. She and I share that passion.”
“I am currently staying in a hotel when I am down in London, and virtually every person cleaning it has been a migrant worker. I speak to them when I meet them. The idea that we can somehow just cope without them, or that there is an educational solution to it, is not true. However, it is important to give some context for all these conversations. Since Brexit, the population of the United Kingdom is 1.4 million higher than it was in 2016, so the numbers have continued to increase. She is absolutely right that the context in England and Scotland is different. It is currently estimated that between 2014 and 2039, over a 25-year period, the population of England will grow by 17% and the population of Scotland by 7%. Since 2011, in the 10 years between the censuses, the population of England grew twice as fast as the population of Scotland.”
“Member also touched upon rural depopulation and the fact that there have been 24% fewer national insurance numbers issued to EU residents, as though that was an unfortunate consequence of Brexit. However, that was the entire purpose of Brexit from the perspective of many of my constituents who voted for it; that was what they wanted to happen. It was not an accident and it cannot have been a surprise to the Government that that happened. I share the hon. Member’s view that we need a far broader, strategic migration plan. We need to try to level with people in the UK about our needs for further migration. We should absolutely recognise the need for migrants to come in to work—not in highly skilled environments, but in what we might class as unskilled environments. We need those.”
“Sadly, there is no sign that either the resources or ambition required to address the issue are close to being found. I will touch upon some of the key issues raised by hon. Members. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran spoke about Brexit at some length. She is right; there is no question but that the removal of freedom of movement will have made a big difference, coupled with—as I said—the accelerated exit of people who might have stayed here longer but decided to return when covid came and work slowed down. Lots of people during covid just wanted to get home to their families, so there was an increase in the number of workers who left the UK as a result. That has no doubt made a big difference as well. The hon.”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I congratulate the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) on securing this useful debate and on her contribution, which I will reflect on in more detail in a moment. Skills shortages are prevailing throughout all four corners of the United Kingdom, so this debate is very welcome. As someone who spent nine years in recruitment in the ’90s and noughties, I am aware that skills shortages are by no means a new phenomenon. However, the scale of the issue is now more serious than ever before. The scale of the failure requires the Government, private and public sector employers, and educationalists to work collaboratively and strategically to address it.”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] Don’t look so disappointed. We are having a debate on fair taxation of schools and the argument has been made many times by Conservative Members that in the event of fair taxation of schools the amount being paid by parents of pupils at independent schools would go up. On that basis, it seems to me that anyone who educates their children in the independent sector has a personal interest, and I wonder whether they should be declaring that interest before speaking in this debate.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his excellent speech. I do not quite know why I have intervened, because I am very much enjoying watching him flay the bowling to the boundary when he gets questions from Conservative Members. He is absolutely on to something in relation to the money that has been wasted in our NHS by the failure to plan for NHS staffing. Is not the reality that far too much money is being spent on agency workers because there is no long-term strategic plan for NHS staffing?”
“The people of Chesterfield will demand that we deliver when we get a Labour Government.”
“We need it to address the failure in general practice where the poorer you are, the more likely it is that your GP service will be unable to see you. We need it to address the failure in care that means 100 people in Chesterfield Royal Hospital over Christmas were fit to leave but did not have a care package to support them. If we can get that long-term plan to address the failure in general practice and social care, we will save money. One of the maddest things about the failure in our NHS is that we are spending far, far more treating people in hospital beds than if we were able to treat them at home with a social care package, or in a general practice if they were able to get in there. I support the motion and I thank my hon. Friend for introducing it.”
“Imagine being an A&E registrar and knowing that people are arriving in agony, but that all you can give them is paracetamol to get them through the next 12 or 18 hours before they are seen. Imagine being a professional and seeing people with cancer who have been waiting, knowing that their cancer has got worse because you have not been able to see them soon enough. The constant sticking-plaster approach of this Government is letting those people down. It is, as the motion says, costing hundreds of lives every week due to the collapse of emergency care. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) said, we need that long-term plan to address the staffing crisis in our national health service, which has 160,000 vacancies.”
“One of my first duties in the new year was my regular monthly catch-up with Hal Spencer, the chief executive of the Chesterfield Royal Hospital. I was expecting it to be a difficult meeting, and my goodness it was. The strain put on the senior management in our national health service, due to the failures under this Government, was etched all over his face. Chesterfield Royal Hospital had a critical incident over the Christmas period. It is a very good hospital, staffed by wonderful people who are professional, committed and passionate about the service that they provide. But imagine being a caring, dedicated, passionate, committed person and meeting patients who have been waiting 24 hours on a trolley before you get to see them.”
“I rise to support the motion on behalf of not only the Labour party but every person in Chesterfield who has contacted me in recent times in despair about the state of our national health service. I first came to this place in 2010. Over the first year or two that I was a Member of Parliament, I had virtually no casework about the health service. Very occasionally someone might have got in touch with me, but now in every single surgery, someone comes to see me about being unable to access a doctor’s appointment, or about how long they have been waiting for a hospital appointment or an operation. Tragically, far too often I meet the families of people who are deceased but would be alive today if they had got the treatment that they should have had. It is for them that we are having this debate. It is for them that we need a long-term plan.”
“Just to clarify, I am not remotely crowing. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. This Government have hugely failed on allowing people to buy their own homes. It is a national disgrace. I support what he is saying; I am not remotely crowing.”
“It appears that the best we can expect of this Government is that occasionally a Minister will come to the Dispatch Box and tell us they are not going to do the stupid thing that one of their predecessors had announced, so in that regard today is a day of triumph for this Government. The Secretary of State has said the status quo is not an option; will she expand on how she envisages the relaxation of the publisher-broadcaster restrictions on Channel 4 will work in practice? What does she think that will look like?”
“Last week, I met Hal Spencer, the chief executive of Chesterfield Royal Hospital; the pressures that he and his staff had faced as the hospital went into a critical incident over Christmas were etched all over his face. He spoke about the pressures on A&E registrars, ambulance drivers and nurses and about coming face to face with people who had been waiting 24 hours in a corridor on a trolley or who had been waiting many hours for an ambulance to turn up. Is not the reality that this is a system-wide failure 13 years in the making? Did the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) not hit the nail on the head in saying that Labour has a long-term plan for our NHS and this Government do not?”
“It was never the case in the past that the Government ignored Opposition days; in fact, the Blair Government changed the policy on Gurkhas as a result of an Opposition day debate that they lost. Has there been any discussion about reasserting the voice of Parliament, so that when the House passes a motion, the Government listen to it?”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Once again we have had an Opposition day debate where the Government have refused to vote. We had an incredibly important motion in front of the House, on a matter of significant importance and interest to my constituents. In the first seven years I was in Parliament, we always had votes on Opposition days, and this is one of the ways that the Government are undermining the House of Commons and refusing to listen. The motion was passed by the House and contains a specific request, which the Government will go on and ignore, as they have done before. Has there been any discussion by Mr Speaker about reasserting the position of this House?”
“My right hon. Friend is absolutely right that this is a scandalous waste of public money. Equally important is that our care sector and health sector were desperate for PPE during the pandemic. Specialised Canvas in my constituency changed all its manufacturing to be able to make PPE and got a large number of contracts from individual trusts, but it was completely unable to get any contracts out of the Department of Health and Social Care. So alongside the public money wastage, we also had nurses and carers unable to access PPE at the height of the pandemic when they desperately needed it.”
“T4. The number of black and ethnic minority students is proportionately higher in further education colleges, but the number of black and ethnic minority lecturers is small and the number of black and ethnic minority college leaders is tiny. What are the Government doing to address that?”
“Labour’s plan to increase its flexibility has been widely welcomed by employers. Do the Government recognise that the levy is not working, and that we need to give businesses and employers the flexibility they are demanding?”