Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,898 lines we hold for Mr Toby Perkins, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 52 of 78.
“Clause 3 initially created a duty for companies to publish only their payment policies. We have consistently argued that publishing policies is not enough and that small businesses also need concrete information on the performance in practice, and not just what is written in a policy book. We tabled amendments in Committee in the Commons and on Report in the Lords that would have created a compulsory reporting regime to ensure that large companies’ reporting records would be open to quarterly scrutiny with automatic interest paid for late payment. The Government voted down our proposals on both occasions. The Minister said a few minutes ago that no practicable proposals had been tabled in this regard, but that is not true. We tabled specific proposals that would have put the late payment directive on a statutory footing.”
“I am willing to predict that, in the next Parliament, we will not consider this issue to have been dealt with and that, at some point in the next four or five years, we will all be back here discussing late payment again and saying that something must be done, that we must change the culture, that we need to get across to businesses that late payments are unacceptable, and that we need greater transparency so that small businesses know what they are letting themselves in for. My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) stated powerfully at the Federation of Small Businesses conference last week that late payments are one of the great scandals in our economy. Small businesses are disadvantaged by the practice, and more should have been done.”
“If a major business chooses to say, “We’ll supply you, but our terms are 90 days”, a small business will have the choice of whether to deal with it on those terms or not at all. That means that nothing has changed, and we are still in exactly the same position. The steps that the Government are proposing on late payment are fine, as far as they go, but this is a missed opportunity.”
“However, the Minister suggested that the transparency he is introducing will create a reputational risk that means businesses and boardrooms around the country will think carefully before paying late. While the way this is going to be marketed will be different, many of the transparency measures proposed here are currently available if people choose to look. There has been no reputational risk for many of the companies that have operated in that way. In response to what the Minister said a few minutes ago, the truth is that no new sanctions have been proposed. He said that businesses could avail themselves of the sanctions in the EU late payment directive, but they have been able to do that for several years.”
“However, we support the principle that the Government should be willing to listen and take action where they have got things wrong, and we think the Bill before us today is a good deal stronger as a result of that. I want to take up the Minister’s challenge on late payments. As I said in my intervention, he is overplaying his hand when he suggests that the measures brought forward, welcome though they are, signal the end of egregious late payment practices. The steps the Minister has taken on the public sector are welcome. Particularly at the time of the bank-induced global economic crisis, the previous Labour Government took significant steps to ensure that the public sector paid on time and this is putting that on to a more permanent footing, which is a positive step.”
“I am therefore bound to say that the fact that these are issues Her Majesty’s Opposition have been raising, from abuse of zero-hours contracts to late payments to small firms, and from non-payment of the national minimum wage to supplier pay and stay deals—an area of pub company legislation we have already discussed—shows that it is the Opposition who have been leading the way, and the Government have been following us reluctantly. It rather undermines the charge that Labour is anti-business when the Government keep taking action in so many of the ways we have called for. I know the Government have form in this regard; they used to suggest UKIP was mad before they adopted its No. 1 policy.”
“We said that insolvency creditors meetings were an important part of our world-class regime and we are glad the Government accepted our amendment on that. We are glad, too, that the Government decided to exempt the Equality and Human Rights Commission from the work of the small business appeals champion—although not from the growth duty section of the Deregulation Bill, as we called for at the time. On late payment as well, we have been saying for a long time that stronger action was needed.”
“The Minister questioned whether the amendments will have the support of the Opposition. They will do, of course; we proposed a good deal of them, so it would be rather foolish for us not to be supporting them at this stage. He is right to say the Bill arrives back in this House in stronger order than it left it. It looks far more like the kind of small business Bill I was talking about back in July 2014 when I said the Government ought to be taking far greater steps, and I agree with the Minister that the Bill is improved. We said steps needed to be taken to strengthen enforcement of the compensatory award in employment tribunal cases. We are pleased that the Government have today announced a naming and shaming programme that will ensure exposure of businesses that do not pay compensatory awards identified by a tribunal.”
“Following a year of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) raising this issue, RBS has admitted that there has been mis-selling of the EFG scheme. Rebuilding confidence in our banking sector will be one of the key tasks facing the next Labour Government. From interest rate swaps to tax evasion and now mis-selling of EFG loans, the Government have been slow to act and slow to investigate whether there are problems. Does the Minister now accept that only through investigating and repairing mis-selling in Britain’s high street banks will confidence in the sector return?”
“Alongside the appalling impact of the tax gap on our public services and the public finances, does my hon. Friend agree that it has a massive impact on the businesses that are playing by the rules and paying their taxes? To stand up for law-abiding businesses and say that everyone should pay their taxes is not an anti-business argument but a profoundly pro-business one.”
“16. What assessment he has made of the effect of real-terms cumulative changes in local authority spending power on services in communities with the greatest needs since 2010-11.”
“The PAC report made it clear that councils with the greatest spending needs—the most deprived authorities—receive the largest reductions. The Minister talks about the challenges facing them. He will know that the challenges facing the local authority in Chesterfield are twice those facing the local authority that the Secretary of State is responsible for. Is it not true that the reason why the areas with the greatest deprivation are facing the biggest cuts is that Tory Governments always redistribute money from the poorest people to the richest? If the disabled, the elderly and the vulnerable in my constituency want to do something about the situation, they should not complain to this Government—they should chuck them out in May.”
“Q7. The Prime Minister’s crisis in the national health service has its roots in general practice, and the changes the Government made to GP pensions saw a huge number of GPs retire early. In my area in Chesterfield, 40% of places for the future recruitment of GPs are left vacant. How can we expect the country to recruit the number of GPs we need when so few of them have any confidence in the Prime Minister’s running of the national health service?”
“Was my hon. Friend not surprised to hear the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) say that his strategy is to try to acquire a nuclear weapon if it turned out we might need one? If someone fired on us it would be pointless responding by then. Potential adversaries of Britain would know that if they fired at a Liberal Democrat Government our response would be too late.”
“Q9. Ambulance trusts are under such pressure that they are downgrading calls from some of the sickest people in the country. In the East of England area, 57 people are believed to have died while waiting for an ambulance that never arrived. Is not the Prime Minister ashamed that this is what happens when the Tories run the NHS?”
“One of the things that the Government could do to support small businesses is to support Labour’s plans to outlaw pay to stay agreements. We very much welcome the fact that, on the back of pressure from the Opposition, Premier Foods has ceased its pay to stay arrangements. The Government say that such arrangements are unacceptable, but at the same time they refuse to outlaw them. Does the Minister consider some forms of pay to stay acceptable, or are the Government so hostile to any form of regulation that they are willing to stand by while unacceptable business practices evolve and to leave small firms at the mercy of their big business customers?”
“I congratulate all the parties involved in enabling the statement to be made and in achieving the agreement, which is a significant step forward for Northern Ireland. The rising inequality and rising child poverty that we have seen under this Government and their hostility to public sector work have had an impact on Northern Ireland, creating a potential breeding ground for paramilitaries and political extremists. Has the Secretary of State had any discussions with the Chancellor about the impact on Northern Ireland of the decisions this Government have taken and of increasing poverty? What is she going to do to support a peaceful future by ensuring that Northern Ireland, and the rest of the United Kingdom, is able to have a more equal future than it has had in the recent past?”
“Friend highlighted that a project such as this will face a lack of core capacity, so where will that capacity come from? In the main Chamber today, we had a statement on local government funding. In many areas, local government would have been the glue that pulled together the fantastic work that he described. We have already seen unprecedented local government cuts over the past four and a half years, and if the events of the past few weeks have taught us anything, it is that if we continue down the path the country has taken over the past few years, local government will experience even greater ravages. In somewhere like Nottingham, which has an excellent local authority, that will inevitably have an impact on capacity.”
“It was also a pretty strong sales pitch for cross-departmental work and the impact that that can have on areas such as his constituency. He was typically pragmatic and non-partisan, which may be something for me to aspire to in future years, but we cannot escape the political dimension of many of the challenges that his community faces. However, I understand why he would choose not to introduce that into this debate and into his promotion of his cause. He made some thought-provoking points about the challenges and the positive steps that his project can take to make a difference. He spoke at length about the importance of partnership working and bringing on board the private, voluntary and public sectors, local enterprise partnerships and various other networks. My hon.”
“It is traditional at this point in a contribution to say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. It is always a pleasure to see you on the Back Benches as well. You are always keen to make contributions, some of which have been among my favourites and will no doubt find their way into my leaflets in April. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) on not only the contribution he just made, but the wider work for which he is recognised and admired across the House. His description of the specific work being done on rebalancing outer estates was informative and thought-provoking. He described it as long-winded, but the time positively flew by for me.”
“He provides a road map that gives us all food for thought about some of the challenges that face a future Government. The principles that he has set out for how Nottingham North can be developed would be listened to by a sensible Government in a much broader context.”
“Friend’s on the exterior of cities, or even more so in small towns and rural areas, business support networks are much more spread out and patchy. As a result, we tend to find most businesses being set up in exactly the areas that are already performing best, and the fewest businesses being set up in the very areas that need them the most. I support what my hon. Friend is attempting to do with the project that he has set up. I make the wider point that his project is perhaps providing a road map for some of the ills that face our country more broadly. That is a challenge that the Labour party will be enthusiastic to take up. I congratulate my hon. Friend again on his excellent contribution and on the work that he is doing. I support his approach and, even more than that, the need for broader devolution in tough times.”
“When people become a new business owner, they instantly become the salesperson, the marketing person, the buyer, the legal person and the accountant—they are supposed to have all those skills and knowledge bases. Having someone able to support people and understand the kind of environment that they come from and the kind of challenges that they will face, ensuring that they are given correct guidance on the process, is incredibly important business support. In recent years, in particular in the absence of Business Link, we have seen that business support tends to collect where most businesses are, so the areas already doing well and growing well are pretty well provided for with business support networks, but in areas such as my hon.”
“When people leave school, we need to get them on to courses that will not only give them rewards for studying, but get them turned on to study, or there is a real possibility of all of the prevalent problems that come from the absence of that. My hon. Friend was absolutely right about personal employability, but he was also right about the importance of the vocational further education landscape. I want to touch on and take up the business support challenge set by my hon. Friend. He is absolutely right that if we want to see more people from deprived communities setting up businesses, we need them to have the support. I ran three businesses, at least one of which was successful, so I know how important business support is for people when they first set out on that path. It gives them the huge array of knowledge necessary.”
“I am supportive of his specific initiatives as well as of what needs to be done more generally. My hon. Friend spoke about personal employability being one of the key criteria that his project wants to support. He is absolutely right to acknowledge the wide recognition of the need for an education system that supports people in their personal employability at the school level and through further education. He was entirely right to say that, although some streamlining of qualifications was necessary, there is a real worry about the focus moving away from vocational education and about the great narrowing of the further education opportunities available to people.”
“In many cases, we need to see those young people’s aspirations and expectations opened more broadly, in particular with support for them to set up and run their own small businesses, which is a key part of his focus. My hon. Friend will also be pleased, I hope, to know that a future Labour Government intend to get a representative of the business community on to every board of governors in every secondary school in the country. Schools do excellent work to ensure that young people pass exams, but alongside that there is real potential in ensuring a focus on the links between schools and the business community, which can have a positive impact on the educational aspirations of young people. He is very much pushing at an open door on the broader approach with what he is looking to introduce in his constituency through that project.”
“Friend about the importance of careers guidance, and I hope that that aspect of his plan is taken up and supported. Careers advice and getting careers advisers in schools in his constituency is a key goal of his project. In fact, one of my most loyal party members in Chesterfield was previously a careers adviser in a school in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I know how important such work is in raising the aspirations and expectations of people from more deprived communities. My hon. Friend should be reassured that, more broadly, the Labour party has publicly identified previous attempts by successive Governments to boost social mobility as having too often focused on getting more young people from disadvantaged backgrounds into the traditional professions.”
“Friend also mentioned the impact of austerity on his constituents, which cannot be overstated. We are all conscious of the link between poverty and educational underachievement, but for too long the focus has been on spending more on education to deal with educational underachievement, rather than dealing with poverty, which is an approach that this Government could have taken. In communities that have faced challenges over many years, people will often have to deal with welfare cuts, may have a greater reliance on food banks and may have to deal with other social ills, which will inevitably have an impact on the educational attainment of the area and on other things that my hon. Friend is attempting to address. Placing that on the record is important. I entirely agree with my hon.”
“I do not think that it needs a great deal of pushing. My hon. Friend will be aware of the report produced by Lord Adonis, and the Labour party is enthusiastically pursuing many of its ideas, which would represent significant steps towards devolution. We recognise that whatever Government follow the next election will still be working in straitened economic times and tough decisions will still need to be made, but we disagree about the sustainability of the scale of the proposed cuts. Projects such as my hon. Friend’s must be able to survive from one Government to the next as Governments change colour. The local authority devolution agenda, involving combined authorities working with local enterprise partnerships and bringing in the best of the public, private and voluntary sectors, is a vision that we share. My hon.”
“Just before the Minister moves on, I welcome what he said a moment ago. Does it reflect a slight softening of the Government’s approach to careers guidance that suggests that they now recognise its value on the ground and face to face? Is he saying that they recognise that that sort of careers guidance should happen, particularly in areas of greater deprivation and, if so, are we likely to see that change of approach more generally across the board?”
“Q9. If the Deputy Prime Minister had attended the autumn statement, he would have heard the Chancellor claim that this is a Government who back small businesses. He could give those words some meaning by backing Labour’s plan to outlaw large companies charging small companies to be on their supply list. Will he take this opportunity to back that plan in the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill and really start to stand up for small firms?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing this debate. I have been written to by Derbyshire county local dental committee, which is concerned that the General Dental Council, under the leadership of its current chair, is investigating much more minor concerns than it did previously. That expansion in its role is one of the reasons why it is now asking dentists for more fees. Will the Minister let us know whether he thinks that the direction that the General Dental Council is taking is the wrong one, as my constituents clearly do?”
“We all know business rates are a bugbear for many small businesses, particularly in the high-street sector. What was the hon. Gentleman’s view on the Government’s decision back in 2012 to put off the revaluation of business rates? Does he think that that was a mistake, on reflection, or does he support their decision?”
“In terms of the business rates, I am not clear what the Government’s aims are, other than having a review. However, I was asking the hon. Gentleman specifically about the decision to put off the revaluation of business rates, which will have had a significant impact on most northern communities, and probably on his. I would be interested to hear his analysis and whether he supported that measure.”
“I am happy to take that challenge, although I do not know why the hon. Gentleman feels quite so threatened. He was reading off a list of things that the Government had done, and one of the most significant decisions that they have taken over the past few years has been their decision on business rates. He is talking about business rates, so I asked whether he supports that decision. He should not necessarily see that as hostile; I am just asking him what his view is.”
“I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s contribution immensely. She focused on the important role for local authorities in supporting small businesses and on the connection between many different aspects of public services and the success of small businesses. Is she concerned about the autumn statement, in which we heard that there will be absolutely unprecedented cuts in public spending—much of which I suspect will fall on local authorities? We cannot sit in this place and say, “This is what we are doing for local authorities,” and then close our eyes to the impact of local authority cuts on the capacity of councils to support small businesses in their areas.”
“Members. My hon. Friend also spoke about the universal broadband commitment. In my time in my present role, I have been to 45 areas of the country doing small business consultations, and at almost every one broadband access was raised. A few days ago, at a lunch with the Rural Shops Alliance focused on the needs of rural businesses, the alliance spoke strongly about the importance of a more universal offer on broadband. The hon. Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) reflected on the many different roles that a small business owner has. I tried to combine those with being a parliamentary candidate so I know how difficult it is.”
“I totally support a review of business rates, but whether I support what the Government want that review to find, I am thus far unable to enlighten the hon. Gentleman, because I am not entirely clear what their aims are. I certainly welcome the fact that there will be a significant debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) made a wide-ranging speech focusing on the importance of a small business administration at the heart of Government. He will be pleased to know that a future Labour Government will want to introduce that, in recognition of the need for Departments throughout Whitehall to work together to support businesses, particularly small businesses. He also focused on procurement, which is an area where the Government could do much more to support small businesses. That point was echoed by other hon.”
“He might have hoped for a little too much there, but his point about business rates is incredibly important. He asked me whether the Labour party supports the Government’s aims for the review of business rates. I am not entirely clear what those aims are, but the fact there will be a review is positive. Increasingly in the last few years, the level of business rates has been seen as punitive. We have the highest level of corporate property tax in the G20, corresponding with the lowest level of corporation tax in the G7. We have said we want to maintain the lowest level of corporation tax, but a focus on constantly reducing profit tax and having ever spiralling corporate property tax encourages an economy in which businesses bring their books to the UK, but do not bring their jobs and manufacturing or a presence on the high street.”
“Innovative ideas are often what matter, and campaigns that start from the bottom up are incredibly powerful. That was good. I want to reflect on some of the contributions to this excellent debate. The hon. Gentleman was right to emphasise the importance of small business Saturday. We often think of it in the context of retail and shopping, but it is about much more than that and his comments reflected that. If anyone thought of small business Saturday purely in the context of retail, the fact that a funeral director won the award in his constituency may have removed that misapprehension. The hon. Gentleman made a great speech and I was pleased to hear it and to take up some of the challenges he offered. The hon. Gentleman listed measures that he thought were positive and then said he did not want a party political debate.”
“Some 40% of all local authorities supported the campaign and hundreds of events took place across the UK. It was probably the biggest celebration of small businesses the UK has ever seen. The hon. Gentleman was generous in his recognition of the role of my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) and the fact that this event has been taken up right across the political sphere. It is another example of what happens when everyone in Britain gets together in support of Labour party ideas. It shows what can be achieved, and he was generous in reflecting that. It is right to recognise that wherever the idea started, the most important thing is that it is being supported universally. It also demonstrates what can be achieved in these straitened times without necessarily having a big pot of Government money.”
“The bus tour has been right around the country, to Leeds, York, Edinburgh, Belfast, Manchester, Nottingham, Norwich, Birmingham, Cardiff, Bristol, Plymouth, Lambeth and Camden, as well as to Chesterfield, and has been well saluted. Anyone who has been on it and had the opportunity to see people’s response will have a sense of how strongly people in our communities feel about how important small businesses are, a feeling that has been reflected in the debate. Small business Saturday in 2013 was a massive success. It drove hundreds of millions of pounds of extra trade to British small businesses and 48% of UK consumers were aware of the day. The hon. Member for City of Chester said there were 1.5 million Facebook views and that #SmallBizSatUK was trending in the top three on Twitter all day.”
“Whether moving from Westminster to Camden is going up in the world or down is a matter of opinion—I will let individual Members make up their own mind on that—but the tour has been very successful, going out into communities to let businesses know what they can do to promote the day, and ensuring that people know it is happening and that they have an opportunity to support it. Many hon. Members have been on the bus when it has visited their constituency. It has made 14 visits over the past three weeks. I was there for the tour’s launch in Leeds on 17 November, and very impressive it was, too. I was delighted when on 24 November it came to Chesterfield and I had the opportunity to promote what small business Saturday is all about in my own constituency.”
“Thank you for that advice, Mr Hollobone. I will take both parts of it seriously. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, for what I believe is the first time. I congratulate the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) on securing what has been an excellent and timely debate about small business Saturday. The debate has ranged over a variety of issues, but has had at its heart a recognition of the exciting opportunity the day brings. For Members across the House to have a chance to speak about the importance of small businesses and of small business Saturday just two days before the event is very welcome. [Jim Sheridan in the Chair ] Today the small business Saturday bus tour reaches its conclusion, as it visits Camden. Last year, memorably, it drove up Downing street and was given a prominent and welcome salute.”
“What it says is that on one day every year, let us all take a bit of extra time to look at the hidden gems on our high streets or just off them. When we have visited them and perhaps spent money with them, we may return to them naturally because we found things that we did not know were out there. To my mind, that is what small business Saturday is all about.”
“Gentleman argued that we should make every day a small business day, and won support from other hon. Members. That was an interesting idea. He and I are former small business owners, and all small business owners I speak to do not want special favours or expect people to shop with them as a favour. All they want is a fair chance for people to consider what they have to offer and whether it is worth buying from them, taking a step off the beaten track and looking down some of the small arcades where many of those businesses are located. Small business Saturday is not about saying that big businesses are bad, or suggesting that we do not need to support all our retailers. We are not in any way demeaning the contribution that big businesses make.”
“The hon. Gentleman is indicating that he did the same. It was no easy task. In what he described as an evangelical contribution, he highlighted the importance of support for business owners, who often have brilliant business ideas but do not instantly have the different knowledge bases needed. The Government should take some responsibility for supporting access to skills development, so that small businesses are not shut out of Government contracts because they cannot find their way through complicated procurement processes. We must ensure they have access to apprenticeships and Government schemes such as funding for lending. There are pieces of knowledge that are found in big businesses, but not when someone starts a small business. Providing such support for small businesses is incredibly important. The hon.”
“Members reflected on the progress that has been made on woman entrepreneurs and on their importance, and that is an incredibly important issue. One of the key challenges the country continues to face is how to develop women’s entrepreneurial potential further, particularly after they have had children. We continue to do less well than we could, because of the impact of child care costs and the fact that we are a time-poor society in many ways. Broadband is important, because women entrepreneurs often want to run businesses from home. There are therefore a huge number of challenges the Government should look to take up, and it is great that Members have reflected on the importance of the issue.”
“Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), who was here a moment ago, are examples of just some of the fashions available on the Middlesbrough high street, and what fine examples they are too. The hon. Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter) paid tribute to the businesses that go the extra mile. He made an incredibly important point about the contribution businesses often make to the vibrancy of the high street and the community by supporting initiatives, either with local authorities or as part of the business community, and business improvement districts have been important contributors in that respect. It is important that everyone gets together to make sure our high street has a vibrant offer. Many hon.”
“As he knows, the Labour party feels passionate about that, and there is a role for the Government to ensure that we do more to eradicate the scourge of late payment to small businesses. The sense of excitement and anticipation my hon. Friend feels as he looks forward to small business Saturday positively crackled out of every word of his contribution. He demonstrated his wide-ranging—almost encyclopaedic—knowledge of the small businesses in Middlesbrough, and he particularly promoted the fabulous fashions available there. He did not let us know whether he was dressed in one of the latest of those fashions, but I suspect that he and my hon.”