Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,898 lines we hold for Mr Toby Perkins, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 67 of 78.
“The hon. Lady seems to be saying that the ambulance service is so focused on targets that it is incapable of recognising that leaving an old lady lying on the floor for four hours is reprehensible and appalling. She is letting the ambulance service off tremendously lightly to suggest that that is reasonable.”
“I was struck during the statement by the sense of disengagement in certain parts of the community, but I have been less clear about the Secretary of State’s strategic vision for dealing with that. Will she be a bit more specific about the steps that will be taken to try and engage some of these communities? Simply asking them to come forward is not a solution. Will she tell us specifically what she is doing, with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, to engage some of these communities?”
“We may never know whether his decision was made in an attempt to stave off an embarrassing rebellion in this debate, whether the response to his call for evidence finally convinced him that the game was up, or whether he simply reflected that the Labour party, the industry and—let us be honest—just about everybody has been right all along. However, if this chance is seized, maybe no one will really mind why it happened.”
“It is not every week that, in the time between the Opposition laying out the wording of a motion and the debate on it, the Government announce that they will comply with most of the detail and accept entirely the spirit of it. We agree with, and are pleased with, the Secretary of State’s acknowledgment that the self-regulatory policy that the Government introduced in November 2011 has failed, and that a statutory code is indeed the answer to the vexed issue of pubcos. The Government’s announcement yesterday that they would consult on a statutory code will give hope to all those who have called for statutory regulation for nearly two years. It would be churlish not to recognise that the Secretary of State has had the courage to admit that the Government got it wrong.”
“I beg to move, That this House notes the motion on pub companies passed by this House on 12 January 2012; recognises that a wide body of experts share the view that only a statutory code of practice which includes a free-of-tie option with an open market rent review and an independent adjudicator will resolve the contractual problems between the pub companies and their lessees; and calls on the Government to bring forward a timetable which will lead to that statutory code being enshrined in law as soon as is practicably possible and before the end of 2013 at the very latest. The whole House knows the importance of the great British pub to both our economic prosperity and our national identity.”
“Britain’s pubs are not only important as key hubs in the community, they are economically vital. Last year, beer and pubs contributed £21 billion to UK GDP, and the Campaign for Real Ale has estimated that the average pub employs 11 people and contributes £80,000 to the local economy. However, CAMRA recently revealed that around 18 pubs are closing every week, and countless more are fighting for their lives. As we know, when pubs close the cost of failure is felt not just in social terms but in economic terms, at a time when our faltering economy can afford it least. There are now 2,582 fewer pubs than in 2010, equating to 200 jobs lost for each week of the year.”
“Before I get into the detail of how we can ensure that the Government’s announcement makes a meaningful difference, I will reflect briefly on why the debate is so important to so many Members, their constituencies and constituents and the economic and social fabric of our great country. Pubs are synonymous with our great island story, from fictional boozers brought to life, like the Rovers Return in “Coronation Street”, to pubs that have gone down in history such as Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese, famously frequented by Samuel Johnson and where Mrs Perkins and I had a very pleasant lunch just a few weeks ago. In almost every village, town or city in the land, and indeed in every Member’s constituency, there will be pubs that make us proud of our localities and say much about our areas, and which our constituents wish to see thrive.”
“I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for those comments, and he is entirely right. The potential exists for this to be a really significant moment, but I do not think we can go any further than that yet. The Secretary of State’s call for evidence was certainly enthusiastically answered. He wrote to seven different organisations to ask for their views on how self-regulation was working, and he received 19 responses. That is a return rate of 271%, which is the sort of extraordinary and implausible statistical feat that we generally expect to see in a Liberal Democrat “Focus” leaflet, but there we have it, right at the heart of Government.”
“That is a frankly disappointing contribution from the hon. Gentleman. One key point that people may reflect on is that there are now 2,582 fewer pubs than in 2010.”
“Let me respond to the hon. Gentleman’s first point before he makes a second one. Using his logic, we could eventually have only 15 pubs left and he would say that was a great success because only 15 have closed this week. As the overall stock reduces there have obviously been fewer closures. Nevertheless, there are now 2,500 fewer pubs than in 2010.”
“Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) have also played a significant role. There are currently around 50,000 pubs in Britain and around 28,000 are pubco pubs.”
“I will refer in due course to the work of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, but I first want to acknowledge the excellent leadership on this issue from the Committee’s former Chair, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), and the current Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey). The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), who is sadly not present in the debate, have made a massive contribution to this issue, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has steadfastly warned about the problems caused by a compulsory beer tie. As well has having wonderful judgment, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) and my hon.”
“I will give way, but let me make a little progress first. I myself am an enthusiastic intervener and I want to give opportunities to Members to intervene, but I know that this debate is considerably over-subscribed, so I must try to strike a balance. An opportunity for fairness now exists in the industry, and I pay tribute to all those who kept believing and making the case for the historic opportunity that we are considering today. The Sunday Mirror has been a loyal friend to Britain’s publicans with its invaluable “Support Your Pubs” campaign. I also place on record my thanks to Simon Clarke of the Independent Pub Confederation, Dave Mountford and the GMB, Steve Corbett of Fair Pint, and CAMRA for the work they have done to dispel the myths propagated by some in the industry.”
“In recent months we have had debates about the level of taxation, but the increasing cost of living, wage stagnation, the effects of the recession and the continued lack of growth in our economy, and the competition for the leisure pound, have all had an impact on the industry.”
“My hon. Friend understandably feels incredibly passionate about the experiences of people in his constituency and the impact that this issue has had on real people’s lives and his community. That is why we are having this debate and so much research has gone into it, and why we are now in a more positive position than a couple of months ago. He is right to raise that point. The evidence suggesting that how the industry was operating was wrong is unanswerable. There are 28,000 pubco pubs that operate on a tied arrangement, and approximately another 10,000 are owned by pubcos and breweries on a different basis. They are the overwhelming majority of the industry. Of course, many things have placed stress on the industry.”
“That is a valuable question and one of the things we will be investigating in more detail during the consultation. I think, however, that the costs will be minimal in comparison with the massive loss to the Government from revenue going out of the industry as all these pubs close. If we recognise—as many of us do—that the way in which pubcos have constituted their business model is having a dramatically damaging effect on the industry, we will see that the cost of those closures will dwarf any cost to the Government from such a transfer.”
“It is worth reminding ourselves that throughout Labour’s time in office, the Committee’s recommendation was to give self-regulation time to work. Its verdict that the final chance for self-regulation to work had passed came in summer 2011, but until that time it never called for regulation to be brought in. Therefore, any claim that this issue should have been dealt with years ago is unreasonable because the Government were working on a cross-party basis with the Committee and the all-party save the pub group. Everyone attempted to give the industry every possible opportunity to put its house in order before going down the route of regulation.”
“Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne mentioned, pub companies have been the subject of four Select Committee hearings in seven years, and on each occasion the big pub company lobby said that this time the steps they would put in place would really make a difference. The scrutiny that the Committee has given the issue, and the tempered and responsible way in which it has attempted to work with the industry, demonstrates our Select Committee system at its very best. The previous Government deserve tremendous credit for their empowerment of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee on this issue. They recognised the expertise and diligent consideration that went into the reports and trusted the Committee to judge whether a statutory code was the answer.”
“That is a typically excellent and important point from the hon. Gentleman. Evidence shows that more than 50% of landlords with tied pubs earn less than £15,000 a year. That is shocking to many people who know the huge hours that many publicans put in. I have already mentioned some challenges facing the industry, and although the health benefits of the smoking ban are widely accepted, we must recognise that it had an impact on many pubs. We have seen aggressive pricing from supermarkets as the off-trade increased its market share. As if that was not enough, the trade is now reeling from the news that I am on the wagon for January. I have not touched a drop for eight days, 13 hours and about 37 minutes. As my right hon.”
“I will give way to the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), and then I will give the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) another stab.”
“We absolutely can agree on that. I hope Ministers hear that message—it is precisely the principle of the motion on which we will vote shortly, and I welcome the opportunity to see the hon. Gentleman in the Division Lobby. He makes the point very well.”
“Many challenges, to which I have alluded, faced the industry during the previous Government’s term. In the last two or three years of the Government, we had the recession and people were stretched, and in times before the recession, people’s habits were changing. Pubcos were operating in the way I have described, but the Labour Government attempted to give them the opportunity to put their house in order. I believe that the hon. Gentleman is of the view—I apologise if I am wrong—that the pubcos should have been given longer. That was his view when we debated pubcos about a year ago. Members on both sides of the House accept that pubcos were part of the problem and that the previous Government attempted to give them the chance to do things right, so it is difficult for him to criticise the previous Government for doing so.”
“I was with the hon. Gentleman for a bit. I have referred to one of his hon. Friends, but if he is disappointed that I did not mention him, I apologise. I do not mean to be ungallant, but the Under-Secretary’s first contribution to the debate was to tell the House that self-regulation was working and there was nothing else to say on pubs.”
“I do not know, but we should be clear that the delay has been costly for the industry and catastrophic for some victims. Let no one say that the pubcos were not given long enough or that there has been a rush to legislate. Make no mistake: when the Committee said that statutory regulation was needed, it was the reluctant conclusion of Members who had taken every possible step to avoid making that recommendation. Given the breadth of support for the Committee’s stance, it is hardly surprising that there was dismay when the previous Minister, the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), decided instead a year ago to give the pubcos yet another final chance.”
“I will be talking about the quotes attributed to the Under-Secretary by the Morning Advertiser . She is welcome to take the paper to court if they are not true, but it says that she said that, so I was working on that basis. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) referred to the role of the Secretary of State, who made it clear when appearing before the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee on 20 July 2010 that he would honour the previous Government’s commitment. I have no idea why he did not honour that commitment—it should have been honoured 18 months ago. Perhaps it was naivety or a generosity of spirit that does him credit—the belief that, this time, the pubcos would know that the Government were serious.”
“Perhaps we could have a group hug at the end of the debate, but it is important at this stage to lay out the history of what has happened. I do not intend to attack Ministers. I put on record at the time and continue to hold the view that a considerable mistake was made 12 to 18 months ago. At the same time, I give credit to the Secretary of State for being big enough to admit that and to come to the House and say, “We got it wrong; now we will get it right.” Every Government in history have made mistakes. At least the Secretary of State has had that courage. That is a balanced view.”
“There is barely a dry eye in the House. If I am any judge, the fact that my hon. Friend is spending more time in Ashfield is considerably good news for the pub industry close to her.”
“On 20 October 2012, the Under-Secretary declined in an interview in the Morning Advertiser —so it is alleged—to take action, saying that self-regulation was working and that the Government had delivered on all their commitments. Two weeks later, she received notification of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills questions to be answered on 8 November and saw that four of my hon. Friends had tabled questions on pubcos and the Government’s failure to live up to the motion passed by the House. Between Monday and Thursday of that week, the Secretary of State chose to conduct his call for evidence. On 20 December, the Labour party gave notice of its intention to call this debate. Yesterday, less than 24 hours before the debate, the Government made the announcement that we are discussing. That is the recent history.”
“I said in the debate a year ago that there was a cross-party consensus in that Members of all parties agreed that the Government were wrong. To a man and woman, not a single Member dissented to the motion that only a statutory code with a free-of-tie option and an open-market rent review would resolve the problem. That is exactly the same request that the Opposition respectfully make today. The right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton did not vote against the motion, and nor did the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister or any Member of the House, yet despite the vote, the Government seemed to believe that that was that.”
“I am going to crack on. In summing up the debate a year ago, the former Minister claimed that he had come up with the toughest self-regulatory regime imaginable. Whatever hon. Members’ perspective, surely none can believe that that was true. The code did not include the free-of-tie option, which is consistently cited as the most significant factor. It did not include the principle of tied lessees being no worse off or an independent adjudicator, and it did not deliver an advisory service. The organisations that were formed were hopelessly compromised. How could anyone possibly believe that that was the toughest regime imaginable? In case anyone believes the House did not do its duty, let us recall the House’s view at the time.”
“The Code will ensure that pub companies use the tie responsibly.” By 4.37 pm, less than three hours later, an amended press release had omitted note 7 and there was no mention of the free-of-tie option. This is no way to run a whelk stall, much less take crucial decisions on a vital and struggling industry. The central part of this whole issue was ruled out at 1 o’clock, but by 4.37 pm was apparently back on the table.”
“That is why we support a genuine free market option for the major pub-owning companies that allows for a free-of-tie option, with fair rent or a tied option, to be chosen by the landlord. It is impossible to see how the Secretary of State’s proposals will not be compromised without that. In the initial press release issued at 1.40 pm yesterday, note 7 read: “The Code will not mandate, as some campaigners have suggested, a ‘free of tie option with open market rent review’. Neither will it abolish the beer tie. Evidence strongly suggests that the tie itself is not the issue—it is in fact a valid business model and its removal would significantly harm the British brewing industry. It is the abuse of the tie in certain circumstances that is causing the problem.”
“Beyond rents, however, it is hard to see how that principle can be assured without the freeing up of the market that would happen if a free-of-tie option were offered to all new or renewed contracts. Surely, it is only the combination of fair rents and freedom to buy where the landlord chooses—tied if they wish, free if they do not—that frees the industry from the shackles of the pubcos. Let me make it clear: we are not calling for the end of the tie. We support the Government’s decision to restrict these measures to companies with more than 500 pubs, and recognise that some pubcos use the tied arrangement responsibly. We also value the small family breweries and recognise the important role the tie plays for them.”
“That is an excellent point—it is so good that I intend to make it myself shortly. I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. You will note, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I have thus far been unremittingly positive in my contribution, but even I have my limits. Even my naturally sunny disposition cannot conceal the painful truth of the challenges that the Secretary of State faces if his optimistic announcement is to deliver change. The stipulation of the principle that a tied licensee should be no worse off than a free-of-tie licensee will inform the interpretation of decisions made by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. The advice that guidance should be interpreted in the light of the principle is an extraordinarily welcome step.”
“The British pub stands on the precipice. The industry has failed the fairness test and it falls to this Government—or to the next Government—to have the bravery to do what is right. We will not fail the British pub; we hope the Government will not either. I commend the motion to the House.”
“First, will the statutory code include a free-of-tie option and a guest beer right? Secondly, will it deliver fair rents? Thirdly, will the independent adjudicator and the independent advice service work properly? It appears from comments made by the Secretary of State that there is real potential for delivery on the rents and the adjudicator and the advice service. However, there is a lack of clarity on the beer tie and a guest beer right, both of which are central standards that a whole range of organisations will be asking the Government to meet. Let me make it clear that if the Government shirk their responsibility and the situation remains as it is today, when the next Labour Government come to power in 2015 we will introduce the regulation. However, this Government should introduce what we have called for today.”
“The previous Minister also said that the code would rebalance risk and reward within the industry. Members will be aware that at the meeting of the all-party save the pub group the balance of risk and reward between the pubcos and their lessees was not, in the view of the BBPA, something in which it had any role. The challenges facing the Secretary of State are significant if he is to deliver the real change that Labour is calling for in this debate. He has made a start. If, having started, he continues to follow the courage of his convictions, he will find that Her Majesty’s Opposition will do everything they can to help to get a meaningful code on the statute book as quickly as possible. We will work with the Government, but their response must pass three simple but key tests.”
“Members will be interested to know that it has various provisions that were cited by the British Beer and Pub Association to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills as “immediate improvements” to the version 5 framework code. They were copied and pasted by the Department into the Government response in December 2011. There is abolition of upward-only rent reviews; training availability; access to information on the pub—letting details, trading information, rent calculations and time scales for taking up occupation. There is availability of the price list. All those steps were supposed to be the big improvements that the Minister had wrung out of the pubcos. However, that is Enterprise’s code from 2002. All that is already there—not “immediate improvements” at all.”
“The Guild of Master Victuallers and the Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers were apparently being offered places on the organisational board in return for signing up to the discredited original framework code. The Secretary of State laments that the measures taken 14 months ago have not led to a culture change in the industry. How did anyone possibly think that they would do so when they required so little of the pubcos? We should remember that the Secretary of State claimed that his solution would be quicker, could be just as effective, and would ensure that pub companies changed their mode of operations. I have here the code of Enterprise Inns.”
“Mr Yorke’s case is one of those that won; sometimes winning does not feel so great. The Pubs Independent Rent Review Scheme is similarly discredited. Of the five independent reviewers in London, it appears that four have clear conflicts of interest as businesses that provide services to the big pubcos. I can provide the Secretary of State with specific details of their links, if he is unaware of them, but suffice it to say that there is considerable room for improvement. The BII’s own financial position is described as “pretty grim” by its chairman, and its dwindling membership suggests distrust about its relationship with pubcos and the potential reliance on them. We understand that the proposed overarching body that will look after each of those organisations will be similarly compromised.”
“I met Alan Yorke yesterday, the first person to go through the PICAS process. He described it as shambolic, intimidatory and not remotely independent. He tells me that he felt that it was entirely beholden to the pubco with which he was in dispute, and, despite his winning the case, the successful attempts by the pubco to delay the process resulted in him losing the pub before the case was heard. He is now being pursued through the courts for back rent from the pubco, despite its never completing the task that he had originally sought action on. With all the problems that the Secretary of State has identified, how can he possibly be satisfied with PICAS? Yet yesterday he described it as working well, with two of the three cases that have gone in front of it winning their case.”
“I hope the Secretary of State will respond to the point and say why that note came out initially. There are other significant challenges with the way the system is currently operating. On independent advice, the British Institute of Innkeeping advice service, which was promised for July 2012, still does not exist, and there would be questions about its independence if it did. Meanwhile, the truly independent Pubs Advisory Service, a voluntary organisation, is under-resourced and steps must be taken to strengthen awareness of it and to retain its independence. The Pubs Independent Conciliation and Arbitration Service is not viewed as independent at all. It is funded and dominated by the big pubco lobby. It is also there to see if the pubcos are adhering to the entirely inappropriate and inadequate codes that currently apply.”
“I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who makes the point extremely well. I appreciate that yesterday was a bit of a day for the Secretary of State, but we could do with clarity on the free-of-tie issue. Assuming that the new version is right, why was note 7 there in the first version? Is the industry supposed to have confidence that the Secretary of State has not made his mind up when the thoughts in his mind, wildly at odds with the view of this House and all established thought in the industry, are so clearly exposed? I am assuming that it was not a typo, and that a monkey did not arrive at his keyboard and randomly tap away 81 words in what appear to be an order. If it is not a mistake, someone wrote them and wrote them for a reason.”
“Further to the question that the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) asked, can the Secretary of State clarify whether he is talking purely about pubcos with more than 500 pubs or about pub-owning companies with 500 pubs?”
“With respect, the Secretary of State did not get the opportunity to answer my question. Are we talking about pubcos or pub-owning companies?”
“The Secretary of State must recognise that the fact that the original press release ruled out the free-of-tie option will cause some to believe that he is not approaching this matter with an entirely open mind. Will he explain how that happened?”
“I have in front of me a document from the House of Commons Library which shows the amount of duty as a percentage of retail price for each of the last 12 years. In 2000, 14.5% of the retail price of a pint of beer was duty, whereas the proportion is now 15.4%, so it has hardly gone up at all.”
“There has been a great deal of cross-party agreement in the debate, and many people will be watching it on television. Will the Minister confirm that she will support our motion, so that we can all work together and ensure that we get to where we want to be?”
“The small business bank provides the last chance for this Government to take meaningful action that could ensure the vital flow of cash to Britain’s small businesses. The reality among the small businesses that I speak to is that they do not have any of the confidence that the Secretary of State seems to be exuding about the access to finance that is out there. There is a worrying lack of urgency and clarity about the Government’s plans. Will he publish a timetable for the establishment of the business bank and update us on progress with all the main elements that will need to be in place, such as when it will apply for a banking licence, when lending will begin, and when state aid approval will be sought?”
“Is it not the reality that the Prime Minister has not made his long-awaited speech because he is the head of a party that is entirely ungovernable on Europe?”