Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,898 lines we hold for Mr Toby Perkins, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 69 of 78.
“Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) reminded us that the bulk of retail staff are female. She also reminded us of the impact on their families of being asked to work during the Olympics, at a time when so many will be wanting to spend more time with their families, enjoying the great spectacle. The hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) made a wonderful speech against the Bill—and then told us that he would vote in favour of it. I fear that he has been in the coalition a little too long. He focused on the importance of Sunday evenings to small businesses—a point repeated by many hon. Members. He also said that the legislation was rushed and that there was no demand for it, further undermining his determination to vote for it. My hon.”
“He told us about the important opportunity that we could be creating during the Olympics to give a boost for small businesses that want to take the opportunity to promote the greatest show on earth, here in this country. The hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) told us that using the evidence from this experience as a basis to extend the legislation in future would be a ludicrous basis on which to propose future policy—as though the fact that something was ludicrous would be a reason for the Government not to pursue it. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) highlighted the fact that under the Government’s proposals, workers would have to opt out by 22 May. She talked about how unrealistic that was, given that we are talking about the legislation only now. My hon.”
“Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) reminded us that the Prime Minister had said that all future legislation would have to pass the family test—a comment repeated in a rambunctious speech by the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) spoke largely in favour of the Bill, but said that he believed that the legislation would be a damp squib. That was pretty much as full as the praise got. The hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson) talked about his experience as someone working in the retail sector, reminding us that workers at the bottom of the pile often do not really have the choice of saying yes or no to their boss.”
“This is fag packet politics that sounds like it has emerged over a damn fine claret at the Carlton club, rather than credible, evidence-based policy to deliver jobs and growth. It is, in fact, an appropriate way to end this Session. I would like to mention a couple of the contributions that hon. Members have made. The Secretary of State admitted in his opening speech that 40% of the benefits of the legislation would fall outside London—proof, if ever it were needed, that much of the shopping will not be the result of the Olympics, but an extension of the shopping that would be done anyway. It will therefore be displacement activity, away from small businesses and towards larger businesses. My hon.”
“How can it be, when we have known for seven years that the Olympics were coming, that two years after the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister had their “Brokeback Mountain” moment in the rose garden, we should be debating this legislation under emergency powers designed for the introduction of counter-terrorism proposals? Sadly, any pragmatic case for the proposals has been utterly undermined by the shambolic nature of the Government’s attempts to convince us of their need. No credible business case has been made in favour of the proposals. Like much of this Government’s policy, they have been made up on the hoof, without any credible evidence, because someone thinks they might move on the news agenda, or be useful for political positioning.”
“Those of us who celebrated in our workplaces at the news that the greatest show on earth was coming to Britain could only imagine the work that had gone on behind the scenes to secure the games. Since they were secured, the 80,000 seat Olympic stadium in Stratford, east London has been completed on time, on budget and with a near-impeccable safety record. According to John Armitt, 98% of the facilities for the Olympics have been built by British companies, and altogether an estimated 75,000 firms are expected to win work related to London 2012. When we think of the preparation, the expertise and hard work that went into winning the Olympics, it calls into the sharpest possible focus the contrast with the Government’s shambolic performance on this issue.”
“It is a great pleasure to speak for the Opposition in this debate on the Government’s proposed changes to Sunday trading laws, which purport to be in order that we might all—shop workers excluded—enjoy the Olympics the more. I am an avid follower of sport in general, but the fact that in attending the debate, in all its glory, I have missed out on viewing one of the most important club football matches in my lifetime could hardly be a matter of regret. On 6 July 2005, millions of Britons stood glued to their radios or television sets to hear the announcement from the International Olympic Committee that London had beaten off challenges from some of the other great cities of the world—Paris, New York, Moscow and Madrid. Now the games are just 87 days away—or, as the Home Secretary would have it, 86 days.”
“The increase in demolitions of Palestinian houses is one example of the approach to the west bank situation being taken by the Israeli Government. A septuagenarian from my constituency, Anthony Radcliffe, discovered another when he was detained over this weekend by the Israeli authorities in Tel Aviv, having attempted to gain peaceful access to the occupied territories in the west bank. Does the Minister agree that it is wrong that the security services of one country, Israel, can prevent a British citizen from visiting another, Palestine, and what will he do to ensure free passage for British citizens in future?”
“The Minister says that a mesothelioma claim is not, by definition, more serious than a personal injury claim. That obviously depends on the personal injury claim. However, every single mesothelioma claim is a serious matter. Will he at least acknowledge that there is a difference between all mesothelioma claims and some personal injury claims?”
“For many of the people who have been on that journey, the last thing on their minds when they receive this appalling news is the idea that they need to embark on some complicated and potentially costly hunt for compensation. People who work with victims of asbestos-related diseases, such as mesothelioma, say that it is hard to persuade them to make claims because they are so heartbroken by their recent experiences. They tell me that if those who seek advice learn that there may be a cost impact, many are likely to choose to let the matter drop. It would be a real dereliction of duty on the part of all of us if we allowed that to happen.”
“I start by echoing the distress expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) about the tone of the Minister’s remarks, which showed a real lack of empathy with the situation that mesothelioma sufferers and their families face. What happens in so many of these cases is that victims become aware of the illness many years after they been exposed to asbestos, and often after the organisation responsible for that has long since disappeared. They face a troublesome problem in identifying who was responsible in the first place and they are then faced with the shocking news that their lives are shortly going to come to end and they are going to experience agonising circumstances in the run-up to their deaths.”
“The hon. Lady is absolutely right about the importance of logistics to the east midlands. Chesterfield and junction 29A—Skinner’s junction as it is known colloquially in the area—plays an important part in making sure that our road network is successful, but our rail network falls behind. My constituents absolutely recognise the economic benefits of improving our logistics capacity through the electrification and upgrade of the midland main line.”
“I believe that the Minister will ultimately come to rue the tone in which he is conducting the statement. At no point will a member of the public listening to the Minister this afternoon have the remotest confidence that he is taking these allegations as seriously as he should. Can he point out one thing from the statement today that will give members of the public watching this the slightest shred of confidence in him to sort this out?”
“I think that the 54 disabled people who are losing the jobs at Remploy in Chesterfield will see through the Minister’s warm words and rhetoric. The fact is that more disabled people than able-bodied people are unemployed generally: it is a desperately difficult jobs market out there anyway. The Minister has already dodged this question twice. Will she commit herself to coming back to the House in six months and telling us where those who have lost their jobs at Remploy have gone, so that we can establish whether her warm words mean anything to the 54 people in my constituency who are losing their jobs?”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. She is hitting on a key issue; the continued existence of the advice agencies is obviously important but ultimately, if their clients cannot afford to access the services, the existence of the organisation itself is of little value. The legal aid funding that supported welfare claims and appeals was fundamental to many of those people continuing to access benefits to which, it turned out, they were entitled. She is generous to assume that the Government are genuine about wanting to find an alternative, but is it possible that they like the idea that a lot of people will not be able to claim the benefits in the future? That would save money not only on legal aid but in welfare. Is it possible that everything has been planned?”
“I am encouraged by the Minister’s suggestion that he has an open mind when it comes to listening to the concerns of the not-for-profit sector. I recognise what he says about the need to reduce the overall legal aid bill, but he will be aware of amendment 11, which was proposed in the House of Lords and which deals with social welfare law. My concern is that if the Minister comes through with this policy without identifying an alternative, the most vulnerable people, who are used to being on benefits and suddenly find that they are not eligible, will be desperately marooned. Will the Minister give us a sense of who might pick up the slack in those cases? If not, will he consider giving Government support to that amendment, rather than scrapping the entire savings proposals?”
“T4. If the Chancellor had cut less than the Darling plan and at the same time was borrowing less, we would be calling him a genius. What word would he use to describe somebody who has achieved the opposite?”
“Beverley Herbert in my constituency was one of six people recently employed on a work experience basis by a major pub chain. Within four weeks, four of the others had gone, and the two people who were there for eight weeks collecting glasses were given permanent jobs, but were sacked within two weeks. Does the Secretary of State agree that for the work experience programme to enjoy widespread confidence, safeguards are needed to ensure that it does not end up exploiting people and providing free labour?”
“I hope I can add some weight to what my hon. Friend is saying. I was contacted by a local small business owner in my constituency—Keith Bannister, who runs Harley’s pub, which people in Staveley will all be aware of. He told me that three women on his payroll are threatened with the loss of their tax credits. They have told him that they will have to give up work if that happens, but he knows that if he increases the hours of two of them, he will have to lay off the third. It just does not make sense, does it?”
“The Minister referred to universal credit. Is not one of the most foolish parts of this policy the fact that it will be out of date within 18 months or so in any case? This will potentially mean a lot of people deciding to get out of work, but it will be superseded by the policy on universal credit. Why not just wait until universal credit comes in?”
“The hon. Gentleman mentions the importance of tackling the deficit, but he will recognise that by 2013 this policy will be out of date because of the incoming universal credit. What is the point of putting 200,000 people through tremendous pain for the sake of 18 months? When the Government review their books in 2015 that figure will have entirely disappeared, so why not wait until the universal credit has come in and sort the system out at that point?”
“We are debating the policies of a Government who have failed to get growth back into the economy and who are bringing forward illogical proposals that will make the situation worse.”
“At a time of ever-increasing resentment from those who pay taxes towards those who get benefits, stoked up by the Government and some of their friends in the right-wing media, we should all be fighting hard to protect the universal principle. The Chancellor recognises that people on £43,000 a year earn more than the average, and he therefore thinks that people will perceive them to be loaded. Let me tell him that someone on that income with three children and living in a four-bedroom house is not loaded. They have to watch what they spend. They worry about the cost of fuel and about their energy bills. They see prices going up while their income stagnates. The Chancellor is making a huge mistake if he does not recognise that.”
“About 170,000 families could increase their net income if an individual in the family managed to lower their pre-tax income to just below the higher rate tax threshold. The policy creates a perverse disincentive to success, and it is wholly anti-aspirational. It is unbelievable that a Conservative Government should introduce such a policy. In the few moments that I have left, I should also like to make the case for the principle of universality in the system. Beveridge’s principle for the welfare state was that it should be a contributory system. Of course, some will receive more than others, based on their need. That is absolutely right, but the idea that we are all entitled to basic support such as child benefit, the state pension and the winter fuel allowance is a good one.”
“These changes will lead to parents being £728 a year better off out of work than staying in work without the tax credits. Why would a Government who support marriage and the family introduce harsh fiscal measures that are likely to put more pressure on those families who stay together? The Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers has stated that 78% of its 410,000 members working in retail cannot get extra hours at work. The Government’s policy of cutting child benefit for higher rate taxpayers is entirely chaotic, as has been exposed by several Members. If two members of the same family earn £42,000 each, that family will keep its child benefit, but a single parent on £43,000 will lose theirs.”
“However, their proposed changes to working tax credit will not move them one penny piece closer to that objective. There are 335 Chesterfield families, and 635 children, who will lose up to £4,000. There are 1,305 people in my constituency alone—working families who are trying to play by the rules and do their bit—who are having the rug pulled out from under their feet. Yet this policy, which will have a huge impact on working families across Britain, will be defunct by 2013, when universal credit comes in. It will therefore not move the Government any nearer to their target of eradicating the deficit by 2016, or 2017—whatever the moving goalpost. More working people will be forced to give up work and to rely on benefit, which is the polar opposite of what the Minister wants to achieve.”
“This debate is an example of how the Government’s thirst for cuts—any cuts—has blinded them to the basic foolishness of the policies that they are pursuing. Even when their cuts are demonstrably ineffective, counter-productive and unfair, they plough ahead with them because they cannot countenance any alternative. The hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) has just said that it would be unfair to pass on the deficit to future generations, but the Government are, by their own admission, borrowing £158 billion more because of their failure to get growth into our economy. The question is not whether we have a deficit; it is about the best way to pay it off. Anyone who understands anything about this Government will recognise that deficit reduction is their primary priority.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will be aware that on 12 January this House passed unanimously a motion relating to pub companies that called for the Government to commission a review of self-regulation of the pub industry in autumn this year, to be conducted by an independent body approved by the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee. In a response to a written question, I have been informed by the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), that the Government propose to ignore the will of the House. Is it in order for the Government to vote in favour of something and then act in entirely the opposite way? What is the point in having votable Back-Bench motions if the Government are going to agree to one thing in debate and do the polar opposite afterwards?”
“I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He has been a consistent campaigner on this issue. He is setting out how, since he brought the issue to this Chamber in March 2011, the level of bank closures has continued apace. Is he aware of any improvements on the ground as a result of Government intervention—Government policies—since March 2011, or is the lack of any such improvements the reason for his bringing the issue to the Chamber again?”
“I welcome the contributions made by all Members and look forward to learning more about what the Government will do to address this serious issue.”
“I should like to hear the Minister’s comments on the proposal made today for a summit. I should also like to hear what more can be done to take forward the inter-bank agency agreement model, which has been important in enabling businesses to share bank branch services. What does she think of today’s proposal by the Forum of Private Business that banks should share premises? This debate involves the broad issue of services in rural communities, the specific role of banking in our society and a challenge to the Government to stand up for Britain’s small businesses. We recognise that rural communities exist in a variety of ways, but if they are to be sustainable communities and not just places where people live, services are crucial. That is why this debate is so important.”
“At a time like this, when small businesses are under the cosh more than ever, we must recognise the banking sector’s role in supporting those businesses. Often, such businesses deal in cash and need daily access to bank services. There are clearly security implications for small businesses that cannot cash in their takings daily, as well as efficiency implications. A small business owner who must close early to drive 10 or 15 miles to take their money to the nearest bank will make less profit. At a time when small businesses need all the help that they can get, the Government and the banking sector should be doing a whole lot more. Hon. Members mentioned the importance of the local business relationship between banks and their business customers as well as their individual customers.”
“Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr said, is a failure on access to finance for small and medium-sized enterprises. That is recognised right across our business community. One of the biggest single drags on our economic recovery is the failure to make finance accessible to small businesses, owing to the banking sector’s retrenchment and the failure of the Project Merlin agreement, particularly for small businesses. The Government need to do a great deal more on that. We all recognise that if we are to have a private sector-led recovery, SMEs will play a significant role in delivering growth within our economy. Members will have been as shocked as I was to learn the extent of the current Government’s failure in a YouGov poll yesterday, showing that a quarter of small business owners expect to close within the next two years.”
“So this is an issue of equality for people on low incomes, and it is an issue about how we support our elderly and disabled people, as well as how we support our small businesses. There is a greater role than ever before for debt advice. The advice sector is hollowing out and centralising in the face of cuts to the voluntary and local government sectors. That could push impoverished people towards payday loans and illegal loan sharks, as well as reducing the access to quality financial advice for elderly and disabled people who are not able to travel 10 or 15 miles to the nearest bank. There must be a greater role within our banking sector for credit unions and mutuals, and I am interested to know what more the Government can do to promote them. Alongside the failure on rural commitments, as the hon.”
“It is an important issue to do with some of the other inadequacies in our banking environment, but once we get to the last bank in town, the decision about keeping it open is often one in which commercial considerations overtake the public service considerations, so the idea that an increase in competition will lead to an increase in the number of banks staying open in such areas is an unlikely one. Banks are closing because banks have over many years been engaged in a long-term process of centralisation and cost reduction, and small local branches simply do not sell enough financial services products to keep them open. Communities that have invested in a bank, borrowed from a bank and been customers in that bank for many years often find that their loyalty is not returned when the branch is no longer commercially successful.”
“We recognised the possible impact on our communities. That role is acknowledged by the banks. It is one of the reasons why the last bank in town commitment is so important. Evidence from the coalition of community banking services has shown the gradual reduction in rural banking services and the extent to which the number of dual bank communities has reduced, often because banks do not want to be the last bank in town and then come under more pressure than they would if another bank closed. So the suggestion made by the Minister in March 2011 that increased competition in the mainstream banking sector would be a solution is entirely disingenuous.”
“We thought that it had been taken up by the new Administration when it was mentioned in the coalition agreement. The idea for a post office bank, in which post office facilities were used for some basic financial services, especially in rural areas, has, to the disappointment of many organisations, apparently been ditched. Alongside the importance of rural services is the issue of what we expect from banks. Banks are both businesses and public services. When the banking crisis struck, the taxpayer provided support in a way that we have not done with numerous other industries. Many other industries, businesses and large firms have been allowed to go to the wall, but the banks were saved by the taxpayer, because we recognised the importance of the banking sector to our communities and, of course, to the business community.”
“They impact on everything, from people’s sense of place and community to the capacity of small businesses to be run there, offering local employment prospects. They impact on tourism in some rural areas. We are seeing an increase in the number of people living in rural communities, yet a retraction in the services actually provided. That then has an impact on the ability of elderly and disabled people to engage in society in the way that we would expect—something that people who have easier access to transport or who live in urban communities take for granted. The coalition agreement promised a post office bank. I am sorry that the Government have decided to renege on that promise. It was an idea floated by the previous Government. It was in the Labour party manifesto.”
“We should recognise that banks have business decisions to make every day, but when they become the last bank in the community, there is also the public service issue. When members of the community can access shared banking services and tolerate only one bank in their village—in the town in the case of Blaenavon—it has a dramatic effect when that last one goes. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) talked about the impact on small businesses. My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) mentioned the fact that the bank is often a key pillar of the community. That leads me to the broader issue of rural services. Local banks and post offices are the lifeblood of a community in rural areas.”
“He asked for an analysis of the number of bank closures to ensure that we have important information. It is vital for banks to raise their reputation and standing. They can have an impact on our broader community and economy. We need to sense that we are all in it together and that banks realise and recognise their responsibilities. The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) also supported the call for a summit. He said that it needs to be expanded and should not just be about rural banking closures. He wants it to hold banks to account for their failure to lend to small businesses, and I would entirely support that. He also made the point that this is not just about the banks that go last, because they are the ones that stayed longest. We should also be looking at the banks that go before.”
“Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) captured the mood of the debate with his call for a summit of the major banks and for the Government to get a summit together. We have seen the NHS summit this week. Perhaps the next summit will include invitations to the people who do not agree with the Government. Notwithstanding that, his idea was seized upon by other hon. Members as having merit. He spoke about the impact of the last bank closing in north Harrow in his constituency. He said that the summit should call for a commitment by the major banks to stick to the principles of the last bank agreement, so that when we are down to the final bank in a constituency, they stick to the commitment to retain it as a public service. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) supported the call for a summit.”
“Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) expressed in graphic detail the devastating impact of the closure of the HSBC bank in Blaenavon, which affects small businesses, the elderly and the community. A cash point is needed there, even if the bank disappears. That point was also made by other hon. Members. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire expressed the importance of supporting local businesses and how their presence retains young talent within our rural communities. A difficulty occurs when young people go away to university and do not come back to their own communities, resulting in a hollowing-out of talent in local rural areas. He described how it is often a death knell for village and community life when a bank closes. That is an important point. My hon.”
“There is a challenge for the Government in terms of how they can stand up for Britain’s small and medium-sized enterprises. Although those issues are not new, they are becoming more serious, as has been stated in several contributions to the debate. A variety of cogent points were made by Members, to which I will refer. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire laid out the importance of exploring the idea of community banks. I look forward to the Government’s response. The Government must take responsibility for co-ordinating and pressing the banks to deliver their public service responsibilities. He also laid out the potential value that there might be in the role of shared banks, which we want to see explored in a lot more detail. My right hon.”
“It said: “20 per cent of the population live and work in rural areas and yet only 12 per cent of bank branches and 10 per cent of cash machines are located there.” What we are seeing is a population shift towards rural communities but at the same time a hollowing-out of services within rural areas. The briefing continues: “Around 200,000 people living in rural England do not have access to a bank account of any kind. Even before any further bank closures, more than 930,000 households in rural areas live below the Government’s official poverty line and as many as 300,000 people living in the countryside do not have bank accounts.” There is a broad issue about services in rural communities generally and a specific issue about the role of banking in our society.”
“The importance of this issue is shown in part by the number of different organisations that contacted me in advance of it to express their views on the problems that rural bank closures are causing their membership and their areas of interest. Those organisations include the Forum of Private Business, the Campaign for Community Banking Services, the Post Bank Coalition, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Countryside Alliance. As I say, they all contacted me to express the difficulties that this issue was causing their members. The Countryside Alliance briefing nicely laid out the fact that access to money and finance in rural areas has never been more acutely limited.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Brady, for allowing me to speak. Unlike the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), I believe that this is the first time that I have had the pleasure of attending a debate that you are chairing, but my excitement is none the less for that. I have obviously not been in the right place before. This has been a good and important debate, and there have been some really important contributions. I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on securing another Westminster Hall debate on rural bank closures. The issue is just as relevant and urgent—if not more so—as it was when he secured a debate on it back in March 2011.”
“I think we need to see a far greater sense of urgency and action from the Government on the issue.”
“I am delighted to hear that there is an interest in credit unions, and the Minister is absolutely right to say that they can play an important part. Regarding the substantive issues that have been raised today, Members will be forgiven for thinking that they are walking away from the debate with little sense that the Government are doing much about the issue. What we are hearing is that such decisions are for the banking sector. Regarding the main thrust of the debate, which is about customer service and public service responsibilities of the bank, I think Members will leave with the sense that there is little pressure from the Government to get banks to face up to their responsibility and recognise the broader economic impact if we do not sort the issue out.”
“The Minister was right to describe the hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) as a great champion of micro-businesses. Last week she called for the Government to introduce a VAT cut to 5% on construction, which is part of our five-point plan. The truth is that the Government are failing Britain’s small businesses. They have failed to live up to expectations on regulation, they have failed to persuade the banks to lend to small businesses, and they have failed to get growth into our economy. Why does the Minister keep pretending that small businesses think his policies are working when it is so clear that they are not?”
“As the Secretary of State will know, when probation is seen to fail and ex-offenders reoffend, it is often because the various organisations involved have failed to work together. What steps will he take to ensure that the marketisation of probation services, with many different providers potentially doing different things, does not lead to more fragmentation and more tragedies?”