Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,898 lines we hold for Mr Toby Perkins, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 61 of 78.
“Those are our tests, which are grounded in the principles of building a market that works, with rules to prevent restrictive practices and big companies unfairly using their size in an uncompetitive way. I know that Members across the House share this vision, so let us unite today behind this vital British industry and this vital British institution, and deliver the change that publicans, licensees, business groups, trade unionists, beer enthusiasts and the great British public are crying out for. I commend the motion to the House.”
“Secondly, we need independent rent reviews. When a new licensee takes over a pub, or when an existing rent contract expires and is renegotiated, there should be a fully transparent and independent rent review, completed by a qualified surveyor. That would deal with so many of the horror stories that we have heard in this debate and previously. Finally, there must be a truly independent body to monitor the regulations and adjudicate in disputes between licensees and pubcos. There is little confidence in how PICAS, the Pubs Independent Conciliation and Arbitration Service, or PIRRS, the Pubs Independent Rent Review Scheme, are operating, with many of the people going through the PICAS process unhappy with the outcome.”
“Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), whom we all miss terribly, although she will be back with us soon, has previously said that she is “committed to stamping out abuse of the beer tie”. Clearly, there is only one way to do that. The Government have previously committed to the principle that no landlord should be worse off than they would be in an otherwise free-of-tie pub, but the behaviour of the pub companies suggests to me that that will not happen without allowing the market to decide. Members who are worrying that such a measure would go against their free market principles should have no fear. What the pubcos are defending is an old- fashioned closed shop, whereas what we are proposing is a genuinely competitive market solution that stands up for the rights of the small entrepreneur.”
“That has been preoccupying me for several minutes, Mr Speaker. None the less, I would not like the couple who ploughed their life savings into acquiring a pub only to find the agreed credit order with their pubco was unilaterally withdrawn, leaving the business in ruins, to be left out of my contribution. I am glad that they found their way in. Our motion calls for three key steps to be taken that will ultimately lead to a better future for Britain’s boozers. First, we need a mandatorv free-of-tie option. The beer tie, whereby landlords can buy products only from their pubco, works for some licensees, but for many others it means that they can buy only limited products at inflated prices. We want every landlord to have the choice of whether to go free of tie. The hon.”
“I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way and for what he said about me being a statesman. If I may, I will press him on the timetable issue that has been raised. If he accepts that statutory regulation of some sort is necessary and the consultation overwhelmingly supports the majority of such aspects, will he at least commit to some sort of legislative action in the next Queen’s Speech, and will he say that we will not get to the end of this Parliament with nothing having changed?”
“Does my hon. Friend share my fear that we will potentially be back here another year to have yet another debate? I am pencilling that into my diary.”
“The hon. Gentleman is right to say that it is difficult to make such comparisons. That is precisely why we are making the case that the only way to get genuine fairness is to ensure that people know what is a fair market rent. We can then say, “You can take that or you can take an alternative. The choice is yours.” That is the only way we will get a genuinely fair deal.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, though he has moved on slightly from the point I wanted to intervene on. On whether what we are now seeing are the death throes of a shameful part of the history of our corporate world, does he share my astonishment that the big pub companies are making the case that if their customers have the choice not to use them, they will not use them, and that that will cause them to collapse? Can he think of any other industry that would think it was credible to say, “The only reason our customers use us is because they have to, and if they don’t have to, we will collapse”?”
“I am happy to help the hon. Gentleman on that. The valuation would be done with transparency against the performance of other pubs. We need much greater transparency in the industry. Under the specific proposals that we have made today, the publican would be able to decide, knowing what a fair market rent was, whether they wanted to throw their lot in with the pub company, on the offer being made, or to opt out and buy their beer from wherever they chose. I hope that has answered his questions.”
“The Secretary of State referred to streamlining medical requirements as part of this process. We have all had people in our constituencies who have attempted to join the armed forces, but subsequently found that their bodies were not robust enough to fulfil the process. That is damaging for them and costly for the armed forces. Will the Secretary of State assure the House that streamlining the process will not lead to more people dropping out as a result of being unable to fulfil medical requirements further down the line?”
“I also want to echo the comments of colleagues who have paid tribute to the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), and to pay tribute to the work done by Derbyshire asbestos support trust. It has done tremendous work in supporting asbestos victims. It had 14 new victims in the last year and they continue to come forward. I am very pleased with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) has said about the moral case being made for these people, and I also entirely agree that we need to work these arguments out, make the moral case for these people and make sure they get justice as quickly as possible.”
“The Minister for Skills and Enterprise is struggling desperately to understand the impact of his policy on the most deprived 18-year-olds, so let me tell him about the impact of that policy in Chesterfield. It means that 655 students in this year’s cohort would not get the funding, which the principal of the college in Chesterfield tells me will directly impact on those students who do not achieve well in GCSEs, and clearly be very divisive. The principal told me that the assumptions made for this policy are alarmingly naive and fundamentally incorrect—”
“People in Brampton in Chesterfield who were flooded in 2007 will have every sympathy with what people who have been flooded in recent weeks are going through, but they are still waiting for the River Rother flood alleviation scheme that the Government boasted about in 2010. In that context, the spending figures are very important. The Secretary of State made some claims that would give the impression that flood spending was going up. Can he confirm that the funding for flood defences in 2010-11 was £646 million, but in 2015-16, in real terms, it will be £100 million less? That is a very significant cut, not an increase, is it not?”
“I wonder whether you can assist me, Mr Speaker, and my constituents, in getting to the bottom of the matter and finding out whether the written parliamentary answer was wrong, or whether the Secretary of State was wrong earlier today?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We all appreciate that the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs may be tired after his endeavours in the past few weeks, but I know he would not want that to enable him inadvertently to mislead the House. He said that the figures I quoted in my question to him a few moments ago were wrong, but they were provided by a previous Minister in that Department, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), in answer to a parliamentary question on 9 September 2013. Either the Secretary of State was wrong to say what he said, or the written parliamentary answer given by the hon. Member for Newbury was wrong.”
“Forty-three per cent. of GPs told a Pulse survey that they will retire earlier than they had intended because of how disillusioned they are. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) spoke about the massive impact the Government’s cuts to care services have had on A and E, but there is also a huge crisis in general practice. The people of Staveley, and people across the country, do not have proper access to a GP service. The problem is getting worse and it is exacerbating the problem in A and E. The people suffering are not only the brave heroes who work so hard in the national health service, but those in the most deprived communities in our constituencies. It is a disgrace.”
“In fact, they should have been urgently sent to hospital—subsequently, they discovered they had cancer. One person said that they waited eight weeks for a GP appointment. When they eventually got one, they were told that they had a hernia and were sent straight to hospital. Another person waited two weeks for an appointment for a repeat prescription, meaning that they did not have their prescription for more than a week. One 90-year-old said that they had to get a taxi to the surgery and had to queue outside at 8 o’clock in the morning. I met a partner at that GP surgery and we discussed how it is desperately struggling to recruit people. There is a widespread GP recruitment crisis. I was told that a huge number of GPs have retired, either because they are disillusioned or simply because they want to get out of the service.”
“A recent Care Quality Commission report found that the Rectory Road and Grange health centres failed on five different criteria. I surveyed almost every house in Middlecroft and Inkersall, which are parts of Staveley, and had hundreds of responses. Eighty-six per cent. said that services were unsatisfactory or very poor. I have here some of the comments of the people who responded. One says, “I don’t bother going to the doctors anymore. I could never get an appointment. I simply self-diagnose on Google.” Someone else said that they are entirely dependent on locums, meaning that when their scans or results come back, the GP is not there. One patient said that a GP broke down in tears in front of them. Another patient said that no one had contacted them after their blood test results.”
“I want to focus on the part of the motion that deals with the difficulty of accessing GP services, which is one of the primary causes of those figures. Some 42% of people who appear in A and E have previously attempted to contact GP services. Hon. Members might remember my raising the case of Jemma Hill on 22 October with the Secretary of State. Her GP referred her to a specialist, who recommended hip arthroscopy surgery. She was then told that her clinical commissioning group would not fund the surgery. The Secretary of State promised to look into the matter if I wrote to him. I wrote to him on 23 October but still there is no response. Jemma Hill is still in agony. She sees a fragmented national health service leaving her behind. The problems in the NHS, and in GP services in particular, are acute in the Staveley area.”
“Hon. Members will remember that when the Prime Minister wanted to detoxify the Tory brand, he said that he could spell out his priorities in three letters—NHS—but people in Chesterfield have seen through that cruel joke. Opinion polls show us that the importance of the national health service is going up as the Government’s record is so terribly exposed. I did a survey across Chesterfield this summer and spoke to people about a range of issues, as I did back in 2009. Back then, satisfaction with the NHS was clear, but now 37% say that GP services have got worse, and just 12% say they have got better. Only 8% say that they think the NHS has got better since 2010; almost 50% think it is getting worse.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way just as he is concluding his remarks, which have been very thoughtful. He is right to say that the GRG might not be the only perpetrator of this kind of behaviour, but it is the focus of the report. Does he think that the evidence that he has heard from colleagues and has read in the report is enough to say not just that there might have been bad practice but that, as Tomlinson appears to allege, systematic fraud is being perpetrated by RBS—is that the case that he is making?”
“Those concerns were also why Labour tabled an amendment to what was then the Financial Services Bill that would require Ministers to bring forward proposals to help firms to pursue collective redress against the mis-selling of swaps, which the Government combined on to vote down.”
“We have been very much with the hon. Member for Aberconwy on that. We have been resolute in calling for speedier action to bring about closure and settlement for companies that were mis-sold products, and concerned at the way in which the Financial Conduct Authority has failed to ensure that the banks complied with timetables that they had promised to adhere to. At this stage, I would like to place on the record my admiration for the work done by Bully-Banks to highlight some of these issues and to ensure that the matter is kept under the glare of public scrutiny. Indeed, as we meet today, banks have paid out less than 3% of the amount that they have set aside for compensating the victims of that scandal.”
“Given the way in which his report changed between the original draft that was sent to RBS and its subsequent publication, many people feel disquiet about the independence of the report and the strength of the evidence base that led to a report as hard-hitting and potentially damaging to UK plc as this one. As my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) has said and few will disagree, there were many things wrong with banking practices and many causes for concern about the way in which the relationship between businesses and the banks has been conducted in recent years and continues to be conducted today. That was why my hon. Friend publicly called for those guilty of LIBOR rigging to face jail, and why Labour has led the way in calling for decisive action on the mis-selling of interest rate swaps.”
“The report also poses questions about how a responsible Government should balance the need to expose wrongdoing and scrutinise questionable practices, which has come across loud and clear in this debate, with the need for a measured and considered approach to evidence gathering, particularly when the allegations are as serious as those made in the Tomlinson report. The report is clear in its call for a change in the culture of British banking. Indeed, Tomlinson echoes concerns and remedies that the Opposition have already called for. Mr Tomlinson is a much respected entrepreneur who has won admiration from across the business sector for his own business success as a British manufacturing success story, but he is involved in a long-running and bitter dispute with RBS.”
“This debate and this report go to the heart of several big questions that Government and society need to address. What are banks for? Whom should they serve? What is the role for Government in that relationship? Where does the balance lie for banks in protecting their own interests and those of their customers when a conflict is seen to exist? A key question is not whether there has been any wrongdoing, but whether, as has been alleged in the Tomlinson report, there has been systematic fraud by Britain’s largest bank. We need to be clear that that is what Tomlinson is suggesting in his report. It is an incredibly powerful and potentially huge allegation from someone who sits at the heart of Government as an entrepreneur in residence at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, as we discuss a subject that is vitally important for small business owners across the country. As someone who was a small business owner before coming into this place, I like nothing more than the opportunity to reflect on what is happening with small businesses and, of course, the vital relationship between small businesses and their banks. I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing the debate. Everyone in the House will know how much of his parliamentary energy he has dedicated to the cause of small business redress, most notably through his campaigning on the interest rate swaps issue—an issue about which he and the Opposition share many concerns.”
“I was surprised to discover that during this process, Tomlinson never spoke to RBS and never gave it an opportunity to put the allegations that he was making in an alternative light. The hon. Gentleman refused to take the bait that I generously offered him to say that the behaviour highlighted in the Tomlinson report would have verged on the illegal. I think that he understates the case. Tomlinson is fairly unequivocal. He is clearly alleging systematic fraud on the part of Britain’s largest bank—in effect, it is feathering its own nest by bringing down businesses that without the intervention of the bank would have survived and thrived.”
“I think that many important points have been raised during the debate and that is certainly one of them. We share the disappointment at the continued excesses in bank bonuses and the failure of the Government’s bank bonus levy to yield the returns that it promised. After all, we are having this debate just a day after publication of a survey showing that managing directors at banks in London are expecting a 44% rise in bonuses for 2013. I turn now to some of the contributions made by hon. Members to the debate. Unsurprisingly, the hon. Member for Aberconwy made a series of significant contributions to the debate that he initiated. It was interesting that he reflected on the fact that Tomlinson had spoken to the all-party group on interest rate swaps.”
“Finally, as we head towards a general election, I suspect we will hear from Ministers why they think the way in which the Secretary of State operated was not the way things would have been done under a Conservative Government. If we had a purely Conservative Government, would they have handled the report in the same way? If not, in what way would it have been different?”
“Given that the basis of the report seems to be that many of the businesses will have collapsed—presumably, that is on the public record—will the Department be publishing detailed citations for where the allegations have come from? Is the Minister personally satisfied that due diligence was carried out by his Department before it promoted the report? Does he agree that if the report’s claim that RBS was systematically involved in deliberately distressing businesses that would, without its intervention, have thrived, that would be a matter of corporate fraud on a huge scale, and such an allegation should be thoroughly investigated before being produced in a Government-backed report? Does he think that the appropriate level of scrutiny was given to the report prior to publication?”
“Was the Secretary of State aware of Mr Tomlinson’s ongoing dispute with RBS when he was commissioned to produce the report? If so, what assessment did the Secretary of State make of any potential conflict of interest before giving it the departmental stamp of approval? Why did the Secretary of State trumpet the report as independent when it was produced in his Department by someone with a close interest in both the party and the issues under discussion? Why were earlier references to malpractice at Lloyds removed from the final version of the report so that it focused purely on RBS, the bank with which Mr Tomlinson is in dispute, and why was RBS not shown the final report, nor given a chance to submit evidence to it? The report is sadly lacking in detailed referencing and evidence.”
“He chose not to do so, and as a result the report represents serious concerns but does not reflect all points of view in a balanced way. Had Labour been in office, we would have ensured that the FCA, which is the appropriate body to investigate such grave allegations, was immediately commissioned to conduct a full and proper inquiry before the trust between banks and businesses could be damaged by a sensational report such as the Tomlinson report. I do not suggest that bad practices do not exist or that we have not been pushing the banks to identify where they have failed their business customers, but we consider that the anecdotes in the report provide a pretty tenuous basis for such serious allegations to be made with the stamp of Government approval. With that in mind, I ask the Minister to address the following questions.”
“Member for Aberconwy said, so I do not know whether his contribution has the Secretary of State’s implicit support. The hon. Members for Aberconwy and for Wells (Tessa Munt) certainly appeared to be working collaboratively. The allegations in the Tomlinson report are incredibly serious, and they clearly carry the stamp of Government. If Labour had been in office when the issue came to prominence, we would not have been as quick as the Secretary of State has been to rush out this departmental report, about which there are many questions to answer. I am told that if Tomlinson had chosen to speak to RBS, he could have been referred to companies such as Samsonite, Fairline, Independent Slitters Ltd and many others, which would have told him that the GRG process was positive for them.”
“1080.] However, the Tomlinson report states that businesses rarely survive the global restructuring group process, and that they never come out again. Tomlinson highlights the fact that “a whistleblowing ex-RBS banker confirmed that they could not think of any occasion in which a business entered RBS’ Global Restructuring Group and came back into local management.” The report by Sir Andrew Large showed that 50% of businesses traded out of the GRG, and that only about 10% became insolvent, so it is difficult to see how the Secretary of State could use the Large report as a justification for the publication of the Tomlinson report. The Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills appeared to be supportive of what the hon.”
“In that context, we have significant reservations about a report that contains such serious allegations of systematic and widespread corporate fraud. There are concerns that, at best, the Tomlinson report will not be seen as being truly impartial. We have reservations about the Government’s endorsement of the report when its evidence base has not been subject to any public or, as far as we are aware, departmental scrutiny. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills told the House during recent Business, Innovation and Skills questions that Tomlinson’s “accusations are echoed in the report published by Sir Andrew Large, who was appointed by RBS.” —[ Official Report , 5 December 2013; Vol. 571, c.”
“Britain is currently facing a mutual crisis of confidence in small business lending, and in the relationship between banks and businesses more widely. A survey of members of the Federation of Small Businesses found that more than half of small businesses believe that banks do not care about small businesses, and, similarly, banks fear lending money to businesses. Such mutual distrust is one of the reasons why we have had the slowest recovery for 100 years. The Tomlinson report will, indisputably, further damage the confidence between banks and businesses. The Government have a grave responsibility to ensure that, when such damaging criticisms are made, every possible step has been taken to verify and scrutinise those criticisms before the Government endorse them.”
“Although net lending has fallen every year during the crisis, our biggest European competitor, Germany, has seen an increase in lending over the same time. After the crash in 2008, a crisis occurred in bank lending, and far from being improved in the years since, it has continued to constrict. Tomlinson is right to say that we need greater competition. Alongside the new local entrants to the banking market, we are calling for greater bank account portability to ease the path into the market. Even a huge bank such as Santander found it exceptionally difficult and expensive to gain a foothold in the UK market. We also agree that the culture of selling additional products and services alarmingly supersedes that of best serving customers’ needs, as was demonstrated by the interest rate swap scandal.”
“The Tomlinson report recognises the fundamental faults of the lack of competition in the British banking system, on which the Opposition wholeheartedly agree. Some 89% of small businesses are locked into the big five banks. The report also speaks of the need to change banking culture so that banks see small businesses as partners rather than merely cash cows, and so that the two can grow locally together. Such a model would not only be good for small businesses but lead to a stronger and more durable overall economy. That is why Labour proposes a new generation of local banks based on the Sparkassen model to add genuine competition on the high street. That would create a major new player that would not operate according to the same lending models as all the other banks, and would boost local decision making.”
“Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway raised an example from Barclays that it made it clear that such practices are not confined to RBS, although the Tomlinson report was entirely about RBS. My hon. Friend focused on businesses being driven into distress. He said that RBS was 80% state controlled. Although RBS is state owned, it has become clear under successive Governments that the bank is not state controlled; it is run in its own way. Perhaps we need to consider the fact that an organisation owned by Government is not always working in the best interest of British businesses and UK plc. As I have said, we share many of Mr Tomlinson’s concerns and conclusions, and I now turn to the areas on which we agree.”
“Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) highlighted suspect practices by RBS that were experienced by a business in her constituency. She repeated Tomlinson’s claim that systematic fraud was taking place. Interestingly, she asked the Minister to explain why he was certain that such practices were not occurring. Given that the report has come from the heart of Government, I imagine that he must be pretty clear that such fraud existed. I do not want to prejudge his comments, but I would be interested to hear what he has to say on that. My hon. Friend also made a significant point about the imbalance and unfairness of the relationship between banks and firms that are battling to stay afloat and do not have the resources to take on a major bank. My hon.”
“Member for Aberconwy raised a legitimate question about the impact of the charges levied by banks on businesses that are already struggling with cash flow, and the powerlessness that businesses feel when they enter the restructuring process. In some cases, a business enters the process knowing that it is in trouble and feels as though the process is making the situation worse. I also recognise that Tomlinson highlights, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) has said, the fact that some businesses did not consider themselves to be in crisis until the moment they entered the process. The report raises many questions and we need to hear the Government’s response. It is important that we continue to put pressure on the banks, and indeed it is hard to see how that pressure will be alleviated. My hon.”
“There is no question about it: we have heard a lot of evidence of that sort. I agree, of course. I welcome the fact that the Government have referred the report on, but it is hard to see how they could have done anything else, on the basis of the strength of the report. The way in which the situation has been handled poses questions about judgment in terms of the seriousness of the allegations being made. The matter will now be looked at by the Financial Conduct Authority. We are talking not about an external report to which the Government have to respond, but about a report written by someone at the heart of Government, which is apparently based on anecdotal evidence and which does not give RBS much of a right of reply. That is why I have questions. The hon.”
“The hon. Member for Aberconwy referred a few moments ago to the smell test. I do not know whether the Minister is attempting to distance himself from the report, but anyone applying the smell test would say that an entrepreneur in residence at the heart of BIS was the person selected by BIS officials to do a report that was promoted and welcomed by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. It does not feel independent.”
“I suspect that the extent to which the Minister has attempted to distance himself and the Government from the report speaks volumes. Does he believe that how BIS and the Business Secretary have handled the Tomlinson report and its impact on RBS’s performance is ultimately helpful to this Government’s future success, or does he think that it should have been handled differently?”
“If I may return to the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) asked a moment ago, it is now 22 months since the Government White Paper on defence procurement. Why is DE&S plus being considered as a serious option only now? Is it not because it was put on the back burner, as all the Government’s attention was focused on the GoCo?”
“More than anything else, my reflections are on Mandela the icon—the generous hero, whose memory we are so proud to recall today, and whose example will inspire us for many decades to come.”
“As I reflect on Britain’s role in the history of South Africa, I recall from my childhood my parents’ friends Mike and Jeanette Murphy, who fled from house arrest in apartheid South Africa, where Mike worked as a trade union secretary for the black Transport and General Workers Union, as well as their tales of life under the regime. I well remember Jeanette’s pride in and sorrow for the beautiful country that they had been forced to leave, and that was very powerful for me in my formative years. I also remember the sense of frustration that while so many British people opposed apartheid, our Government provided the regime with a cover of authenticity and defence.”
“We remember the huge message sent around the world by the 70th birthday concert at Wembley, and we know how important the sporting boycotts, from the D’Oliveira affair to the bans for cricketers who played in South Africa, were for a proud sporting nation such as South Africa. It was therefore so uplifting that Mandela should have recognised the huge role of the Springboks in the psyche of white South Africa. By extending the arm of friendship to, and supporting, the 1995 Springbok team that famously won the rugby world cup, he showed the tremendous gift of forgiveness, which will be his enduring legacy. Long after all those who remember apartheid have gone, his example will shine through the pages of history.”
“Mandela’s massive contribution to the world was not just, as the Prime Minister acknowledged, as “a pivotal figure in the history of South Africa”, but as someone who gave a wider example to humankind of forgiveness, bravery, tolerance and self-sacrifice in pursuit of higher ideals. Other hon. Members have spoken about the role played by this country in the best and the worst of South Africa’s history. I know how many from Chesterfield were involved in their own way in the British arm of the struggle against apartheid. I remember my mother moving her bank account from Barclays, as many opponents of apartheid did, and the numerous tiny gestures made by so many people, which all maintained the pressure of the world against the idea that South Africa’s way of operating was normal or acceptable.”