Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,898 lines we hold for Mr Toby Perkins, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 71 of 78.
“The first thing the hon. Lady seems to be suggesting is that the national debt is a brand new concept. The country has always had a national debt. The reality is that until 2008, her party supported our spending plans. The national debt fell between 1997 and 2007 under the Labour Government. She is talking as though the issue is brand new, but the reality is that a global economic crisis caused the scale of the deficit, and she must take that into account.”
“What my hon. Friend says about the NHS is absolutely right, but there was also a pledge not to have any major reorganisations of the NHS. In Chesterfield, alongside the financial pressures that the NHS would have been under anyway, additional resources are being spent on reorganisation rather than on patient care. That is the other major problem that the NHS is facing.”
“The last Chancellor to see interest rates go through the roof was not a Labour Chancellor, but the one who was advised by this Chancellor’s right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. If the Chancellor seriously thinks that the current level of interest rates is a sign of his success, will he consider any increase in interest rates to be a sign of failure?”
“I think that the hon. Gentleman might have dropped his script. According to his own party, growth and job creation are not the No. 1 priority, which is deficit reduction. We absolutely support the hon. Gentleman in what he said, so will he start to put some pressure on his party to put growth and job security at the top of the agenda again?”
“7. What steps he has taken to ensure that reductions in funding for the Crown Prosecution Service do not adversely affect front-line services.”
“Under the POD system operating in the Crown courts, only the most serious cases are now allocated to an individual dedicated prosecutor. Can the Solicitor-General tell the House how many cases under that system have been dropped or delayed because evidence was not prepared in time?”
“Government Members may well be laughing too, but people in Chesterfield are not laughing, because they are paying through the nose. It is not just the general public who are affected by the current level of VAT. Small businesses up and down the country that are not VAT-registered and do not qualify to get their VAT back are paying huge amounts. We should not be laughing about this; we should be taking the point seriously.”
“My hon. Friend has not only laid out the case with tremendous vision, but he has used some research, which is very welcome. Does he not think that the many people from Chesterfield who wrote to me supporting the fair fuel debate will be surprised to see how meek the motion is? They were expecting a hell of a lot more from this debate than what is to be voted on.”
“Over the past 15 years or so we have seen a reduction in the amount of tax on fuel as a percentage of its cost. The peak period of the highest tax on fuel was back in the mid-90s. Since then, we have seen a reduction. Over the course of the last few years, we have seen a massive increase in the cost of petrol. The tax has been significant, but the big increases recently stem from the profiteering of the fuel companies— [Interruption.] Is that an attempt to intervene? I was not inviting one, but I am happy to oblige.”
“It was exactly that principle that persuaded me to vote in favour of shelving the increase, when Conservative Members were not doing so. Having arrived at that point, however, it is bizarre that Conservative Members should think that the issue is purely about fuel, and that all the other reasons why people have no money in their pockets and why consumer confidence is so low are not significant. They focus solely on fuel. This issue is having a massive impact on businesses. The hon. Member for Harlow started by saying that some businesses do not pay VAT, so they are okay. However, small businesses pay VAT, as do public services, charities and ordinary people out there who are paying it the whole time. The significance of this should not be underestimated.”
“His request to the Government will greatly disappoint the many people who have written to me. I recognise entirely that the cost of fuel is just one of many costs that are going through the roof, resulting in many people in our constituencies really struggling at the moment. The cost of energy is a significant one, and the cost of food is going through the roof. Inflation is going up, wages are stagnant and the people in our constituencies are struggling desperately. I welcome the fact that Conservative Back Benchers are finally showing an understanding of the principle of the Government forgoing revenue in order to deliver economic growth, reducing the deficit through the higher tax revenues that result from people having more money in their pockets.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing the debate, but I would like to express my disappointment, and the disappointment of the many dozens of people in Chesterfield who have written to me about this matter, that the motion demands so very little of the Government. It calls on them to “consider the effect” of fuel duty increases, to “examine ways of working” with industry, to “take account” of market competitiveness and to “consider the feasibility” of a price stabilisation mechanism. That is hardly a manifesto for change. Is that what 110,000 people wrote to Members of Parliament about? We are asking so very little of the Government today. Jesus said: “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”, and the hon. Gentleman must be very blessed indeed.”
“[Interruption.] We have also heard from Conservative Members— [Interruption.] If they want to intervene, they can do so, but I will not just be barracked. According to Conservative Members, there is a huge amount of support for the 1p reduction, which will save motorists £274 over the Parliament. At the same time, people are spending £300 or £400 extra in VAT, so this does not add up. We need a stronger motion, so that we can really help to put some money back into people’s pockets.”
“The escalator was the invention of the previous Conservative Government. The reality is that when the major fuel protests broke out in 2000-01, the amount of their income that people were spending on fuel was far less than it is today. All the revenue is coming in now, and Conservative Members say that the Government were generating too little money in years gone by. They stand before us today with all the benefit of the money that has gone in over the years, yet for all the talk we hear from people such as the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), we have a motion before us that asks the Government to consider whether they can do something. If the massive increase in fuel duty over the years is so awful—I think it has gone up a lot—why do we not have a proposal that is a bit stronger? Why is the motion so feeble?”
“Britain’s construction industry needs a lion at the wheel, but instead we have a tortoise that is sitting still while building sites and people in our construction industry are made redundant. However, there is an alternative. The shadow Chancellor’s five-point plan will produce projects that will enable us to get the industry moving. For instance, a VAT cut to 5% on home improvements and repairs and maintenance is a targeted approach that is supported by the Federation of Small Businesses. Will the Government take serious action to get the construction industry moving?”
“I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman did not accept my intervention the second I offered it, because he has partially answered my question. Given that the Foreign Secretary’s review went on for some time, was the right hon. Gentleman surprised at how little detail it contained about how the proposed changes will be delivered? There were a relatively small number of suggestions about possible outcomes, but little detail on how those outcomes would be delivered. Having read the review, is the right hon. Gentleman confident that the Foreign Secretary has told the House exactly how improvements will be delivered?”
“The defence industry is not only crucial to Britain—it is an industry in which we are world leaders—but it is an industry in which, notwithstanding many of the reservations that have been expressed by the Committees, we have a very strong track record in terms of our commitment to an ethical policy. It is also vital to the interests of Britain on the world stage that, as many Members have reflected on, we try to strike the right balance between having serious concerns that any products that carry the stamp “Made in Britain” are sold responsibly and ethically, and supporting our vital defence industry. It is worth reflecting for a moment on the contribution that the defence industry makes.”
“I will talk about some of the contributions to the debate, but prior to that I will talk briefly in my capacity as the shadow small business Minister about the importance of the defence industry. The defence policy, as has been expressed by the Government in their response to the Committee’s report, is about defence first and industry second. If we as a human race had managed during the past 3,000 or 4,000 years to come up with a better way of resolving our differences than getting into military conflict, the world would be a better place, but we have not done so. As a result of that, the defence industry exists.”
“The success that the Committees have had on the decision about sodium thiopental was a worthwhile sign of the importance of their scrutiny. The Committees have scrutinised the statements that have come from the Government, particularly the recent statement from the Foreign Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman was somewhat generous in saying that the Foreign Secretary could not be blamed as he was only reading out the words that his officials had put in front of him. I am sure that there are many Secretaries of State who would be grateful to be scrutinised in that way. None the less, it is clear that a very thorough piece of work has been done by the Committees.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Leigh, for calling me to speak. I start by welcoming the work that has been done by the Committees under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley). The work that has been done by the Committees, including the production of this report, and the extent of the scrutiny that the Government are under in this area do great credit to the right hon. Gentleman and the Committees. I hope that he will pass on the thanks and warm congratulations of the Labour party and, I believe, of Members from all parties for the work that the Committees are doing. That work is unquestionably adding tremendously to the transparency in this important area, and it is extremely valuable.”
“Given that there will be arms going out there into the world; given that we are a country that has a strong track record of taking issues of arms control seriously; and given the many steps that we are taking in terms of increasing transparency, it is absolutely right that we should want to ensure that weapons that are going out into the world are going out responsibly, rather than saying, “Let’s shrink our industry and let someone else do that”. It is important to get that side of the scrutiny right, and the Select Committee plays a key part in that. In doing that, we take responsibility for what is out there in the world and for the way in which weapons are supplied, rather than simply allowing them to be supplied by nations that would not perhaps take the same care. That is the only point on which I take issue with what was said.”
“The implication that I took from their comments was that they were suggesting not only that we should grow the rest of the economy while the defence industry stays the same, so that defence becomes less significant, but that we should try to reduce the amount that we are doing with regard to defence. Although I agree with many of the comments that have been made in the debate, I take issue with that particular suggestion.”
“According to the previous Government’s 2009 value added scoreboard, the aerospace and defence sector added £12 billion in value to the economy. In addition, Oxford Economics also found that a £100 million investment in the industry generates an increase in gross output of £227 million and increases Exchequer revenues by £11.5 million. The defence industry is very important to us. Alongside that, however, there is an issue that was raised by my hon. Friends the Members for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) and for Islington North. They suggested that, within the redevelopment and the rebalancing of our economy, it would be preferable if defence played a less significant part.”
“Before that, however, I want to talk about the contribution that the defence industry makes. Total employment in the defence industry is about 314,000 people, with about half those people being employed directly and the other half employed in the supply chain. The defence industry accounts for about 10% of manufacturing jobs in the UK. A study by Oxford Economics found that the UK defence industry has a highly skilled work force, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has said, with 39% of the workers in the industry holding a NVQ level 4 qualification, which is a similar percentage to that in the UK’s banking and finance sector. There are high-value manufacturing and engineering jobs in the industry that would be very difficult to replace if they were lost.”
“I have no doubt that it is an idea worth considering, but the relationship between the defence industry and our own military interests, in terms of the defence of this nation, are so intertwined that we can entirely understand that relationship too. It is because our defence industry and our defence interests—militarily —span so many different areas that we have the Committees on Arms Export Controls, which was formerly the Quadripartite Committee, looking at arms controls and recognising that it is a defence issue, a Foreign Office issue, an international development issue and an important business issue. That shows how important the issue of arms controls is. Shortly, I will refer to the contributions that have been made in the debate by Members so far.”
“We are grateful for the work done by the Committee, and we look forward to working positively and constructively with the Government on the issue. We recognise that there are good intentions across the House. If we feel that the fine line to which many colleagues have referred is being overstepped, or that this country’s vital commercial interests are superseding equally vital, if not more vital, ethical interests, we will be quick to say so. We want to be certain that the stamp “Made in Britain” can go out around the world with pride, and that everything possible has been done to ensure that those products are being delivered to nations and organisations we can be proud to trade with.”
“How will it be delivered within the improvements in end-use monitoring? What specifically are the improvements to transparency in reporting? I agree with the Committee that the Government’s move to bring the British consolidated criteria in line with the EU consolidated criteria appears too protracted. What is the time line on that? Do the Government accept the view of the Export Group for Aerospace and Defence on the ECO’s performance? Finally, what resources will the UK negotiating team on the arms trade treaty have at its disposal to push for the strongest possible deal internationally? Can the Minister assuage the Committee’s concern that the resource being given is insufficient to ensure that something sustainable, workable and powerful will be delivered?”
“He said that he would return to it in his statement, but the brevity of the statement and its lack of detail are disappointing. I look forward to hearing the Minister expand on it. On the new ability to suspend arms licences, on what grounds does the Minister think that is likely to happen? Will it be based purely on evidence, or will it take risk into account? If there have been no failures in the past but risk assessment procedures suggest that there will be problems in future, will arms licences be suspended on that basis? Will he expand on the revised risk assessment procedures, which will consider more factors? The Foreign Secretary’s statement says that there will be greater ministerial oversight. How will that be triggered? Are any extra resources being provided for that?”
“Given the extent of the cuts to UK defence budgets and the tremendous pressure they are putting on the UK defence industry, it is vital that licence applications be processed in a timely fashion when our defence industry attempts to trade with trusted nations that present no large-scale concerns. The defence industry reports that contracts have been lost in cases where there were no worries about the licence application, but the process simply took longer than it should have. Business vital to this country’s defence industry is being lost as a result of bureaucratic failure. The Foreign Secretary’s report has been some time in coming. The Committee’s report was published in July and contains numerous questions to which we have awaited the Foreign Secretary’s response.”
“I have written to him with a parliamentary question asking how delayed the 36% of standard individual export licences are that are not processed within 20 days. I recognise that the report says that last year, the ECO missed its target, and that there have been improvements since then, but I am interested specifically in the percentage of SIELs that are not processed within 20 days. Are they a couple of days late, a couple of weeks late or much later than that? He will, as I say, shortly receive a written parliamentary question to that end, but if he can shed any light on the matter today, that would be wonderful.”
“Friend the Member for Islington North focused on the particularly important issue of torture equipment. The Committee’s work to hold the Government to account on that issue is valuable. He also focused on the corruption of armies’ aims under some regimes in other parts of the world. The importance of US-UK defence trade co-operation was mentioned in the report, but not in the debate. We welcome it and recognise that its primary purpose is to improve the delivery of military capability and UK firms’ access to US-sourced equipment and information, but it also has knock-on benefits. Will the Minister reflect in his response on the performance of the Export Control Organisation? Does he believe that the complaints about its performance by the industry are valid?”
“Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran reflected on the importance of ensuring that we keep the review in our minds after it has faded from the news and that our focus on it does not move on when the news agenda does. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) spoke about security, assistance overseas and conflicts between that and other services and trade. He spoke particularly about the lack of transparency in counter-narcotics work. With his tremendous experience in foreign affairs, he will recognise that there is always a balance between transparency and security. None the less, he expressed the view that he wanted more transparency. He asked valid questions about the visits of the former Defence Secretary to Sri Lanka, and if he does not get answers today, I know that he will pursue them on another day. My hon.”
“Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran reflected on the conflict between commercial and ethical considerations, and on the delicate balance that exists. In simple terms, what is laid out strategically in the document, if properly enforced and enacted, should strike the correct balance. It makes it clear that the UK defence industry is important and contributes commercially and that we have high expectations for its administration and transparency, but that notwithstanding any commercial interests, if attempted trade conflicts with the criteria—if weapons will be used for internal repression or are likely to aggravate armed conflict—licences should either be revoked or not given. The policies before us contain the means to act; we must ensure, where failures have occurred, that those policies are pursued as they should be. My hon.”
“I am looking for a commitment from the Government that every necessary resource will be given to our negotiating team, to ensure that, given the Government’s worthwhile intentions, we have done everything possible to secure a much stronger realisation among our international partners of the importance of the treaty, and that vested interests do not get in the way of delivering the detail that we need. My hon. Friends the Members for North Ayrshire and Arran and for Islington North talked about the importance of the report and of this debate, and expressed their hope that the continued work of the Committee—work that does it great credit—is as strong as it has been in its first year. My hon.”
“The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling referred to the important matter, detailed in the report, of brass plate companies acting with relative impunity. There is a suggestion in the Foreign Secretary’s statement that there will be easier ways to revoke licences, but there is little information about how that would be delivered, and I hope to hear more detail from the Minister. The right hon. Gentleman also spoke about the importance of pressing, in the European Union, for the amendment of article 4.2, and more broadly about the importance of the Government’s work in getting international co-operation within the EU on the arms trade treaty.”
“I recognise many of those steps forward, but doubts remain. I was struck by the many wise contributions of colleagues. The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling talked about the Government’s suggestion that the defence industry’s funding of the Export Control Organisation would be an improvement, and I share entirely his reservations about how the public would view that. Can the Minister explain whether that is being considered because the country wants to address its budget deficit, or because for some reason the Government think it would improve the body’s independence? It sounds rather simplistically like, “He who pays the piper calls the tune,” and I would be very concerned about how that was perceived. Will the Minister, either now or in his contribution, tell us the Government’s thoughts on why that option would be better?”
“Before Labour came to power, we had last legislated on arms export controls in 1939. We had the consolidated criteria in 2000 and the Export Control Act in 2002, and since 2004 the quarterly report has brought much greater scrutiny to our arms exports. The success of that regime is highlighted in annex 1 of the Government’s response to the report—Cm 8079—regarding the number of standard individual export licence revocations, particularly to Bahrain, Egypt and Libya in recent months but, as the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling said, to other countries as well. He talked about the increase in the number of revocations, an increase that is not entirely surprising given the recent Arab spring, and the sense of change in that part of the world quite unlike at any other time in recent history.”
“The visit struck entirely the wrong chord; our country got the balance wrong at that point in time. In their contributions, many Members have recognised the difficult balance on both sides, and the fine line we tread. Generally, however, the strategic approach of both the previous and the current Government has been that arms must not be sold to nations that will use them for external aggression or internal repression, and that they should be used, as it says on the tin, for defence. The approach recognises that nations have the right to defend their sovereign lands but not, as we have seen, to oppress their people and use weaponry to stamp on legitimate demonstration. Britain is a world leader in export controls, and the previous Government took many steps in that area, but that is not to say that there is not a lot more we can do.”
“Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), expressed some of the challenges, saying that “we should never reduce foreign policy to a narrow pursuit of commercial gain for Britain…we should also examine our arms sales to ensure that UK weaponry is not used for the repression of people” in other countries. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran takes great succour, as do I, from that contribution, which recognises that foreign policy is about much more than simply promoting Britain’s interests. Acknowledging that difficult balance, and notwithstanding the areas of agreement between the parties, the Prime Minister got it wrong when he travelled to the middle east with members of the arms industry at an incredibly delicate time for the future of the region.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are having this debate for precisely that reason, and that is why the Committee’s work is so important and why the previous Government introduced arms export controls and made a lot of progress. I would never say that we should take the view, “Someone’s going to supply the weapons so it might as well be us”—we need strong, stringent controls. Having a Government whom we know are responsible and an industry that is scrutinised as strongly as possible is for the betterment of the world—and, by the way, has strong economic and commercial benefits. I will return later to some of the important conflicts that my hon. Friend mentioned. In a statement, the leader of the Labour Party, my right hon.”
“As I said previously, I think for six months’ work the statement is pretty light on detail. It refers to a mechanism to allow immediate licensing suspension. What is that mechanism? On each of the issues, we would agree with the general headline but we want to know what it actually means.”
“Some deaf children have been successful in learning foreign languages, but while deaf children are behind all children as an average, they do particularly poorly in languages. Given that, and with the Government wanting foreign languages to play a greater part, what plans do they have to ensure that deaf children do not fall further behind?”
“The Chancellor has been very generous in giving way, although not so generous in actually answering the questions that he has been asked. He has just laid out all the things that he is doing to put things right, yet the economy is flatlining, with record youth unemployment and no growth back in the economy. What is he going to do to improve the situation? Does he not recognise that we cannot just cut the deficit if we do not have growth?”
“Returning to the subject of the business cards that said that Mr Werritty was the adviser to the Secretary of State, and which the Sri Lankans believed were true, will the Secretary of State confirm that those business cards were known to him before he asked for them not to be used in June, and will he say whether they were funded from his parliamentary expenses or from Ministry of Defence expenditure?”
“6. What recent representations he has received from people with mesothelioma and mesothelioma support groups on the potential implications of his proposed reforms to legal aid.”
“Mesothelioma victims are often in the last year of their life by the time they are diagnosed and many are already too ill to seek redress. The proposals to prevent their being able to recover afterwards from the insurance premiums will mean a big up-front cost for many people. Derbyshire asbestos support team is very concerned that they and their families will miss out on access to justice because of these proposals. What can the Minister do to ensure that those people, who are very ill and who do not have trivial claims, have access to justice?”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is perverse that, at the very time a generation of students are about to go to university and pay huge tuition fees, setting themselves up for decades of debt, they see people who made that choice three or four years ago leaving university with a degree, but no opportunities to move into?”
“In the next debate we will consider the dreadful mess in the careers service. At every level we see a Government who are careless about the future for young people and who are setting young people up to fail. If they do not take action soon, there will be a wasted generation.”
“However, the private sector recovery is not doing all that well, as we see from examples such as Bombardier, where the Government had an opportunity to safeguard jobs in British industry but decided instead to send those jobs overseas. In the case of Forgemasters, the Government could have taken a decision that would have put Britain at the forefront of a new industry, but instead they pulled the ladder away. We see what they have done to growth in our economy with the scrapping of the regional development agencies. In Chesterfield, when Auto Windscreens went into liquidation, more than 1,000 employees turned to the Government for help and no help was forthcoming. The future looks bleak for graduates, but it looks even worse for those who have not had the opportunity to go to university.”
“Because the young are dispossessed, they are less likely to vote and they pay less in taxes—but times are changing. The student demonstrations showed that young people are being politicised as never before. The number of young people who have been joining the Labour party in Chesterfield, coming forward and wanting to have their voice heard gives me great confidence about what young people will do in future. We are facing a desperate graduate employment crisis. The public sector is not growing. We have hundreds of social work graduates out of work. It is no accident that we have a huge increase in graduate unemployment at the same time as the public sector cuts. Perhaps that is because the Government have some sort of plan for a private sector-led recovery.”