Mr Toby Perkins
MP for Chesterfield · Labour · United Kingdom
“The hon. Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) is absolutely right to say that what is behind this is the deep unpopularity of President Milei; it is not anything actually that the UK has done.”
“In Chesterfield, there will be unmitigated despair at the statement we have heard today from my right hon. Friend. For the authorities for which she is doing a review—the 14 that thought they had got their decision in July—could she clarify the basis of that review?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) on securing this debate.”
“The report spells out the link between degradation overseas and the impact here. The assessment lays out the consequences: food insecurity, economic insecurity, increased migration and refugees, increased interstate competition, conflict and geopolitical instability, all of which will threaten us here at home.”
“The Government are right to take their time and make sure that they get this right—we saw what happened when the previous Government did not do the work that was needed. This is a delicately balanced decision.”
“Thirdly, will the Minister consider bringing forward the fourth national adaptation programme? NAP3, published by the previous Government in 2023, was deemed ineffective by the Climate Change Committee. NAP4 is not due until 2028, but can we afford to wait two more years before we have an adequate plan?”
The complete record
Every one of 3,898 lines we hold for Mr Toby Perkins, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 68 of 78.
“The Chancellor has taken on a ghastly, ghostly, deathly pallor that suggests he knows that he has been rumbled. The money from the 4G mobile auction has not come in yet. When it comes in, he can spend it on whatever he likes, but he cannot offset it against borrowing before it has come in. Why does he not come clean and admit that borrowing has gone up and the rest of it is just a con?”
“Sales skills are crucial to British businesses, but although nearly 10% of people are employed in sales, fewer than 1% of apprenticeships are in sales. Having escaped the opportunity to become Alan Sugar’s apprentice, Kate Walsh is now heading the Labour party’s policy review body, which is looking into how we can ensure that more young people get into sales and recognise the value of such work. Will the Minister congratulate Kate Walsh on having engaged in the political process, and acknowledge the importance of sales in our schools and colleges?”
“I echo the Minister’s comments on the massive contribution of 12th Mechanized Brigade. I recognise what the Secretary of State has just said about the importance of the message that we send to the Taliban and the Afghan army, but what message will be sent by the reduction in the size of the Afghan army in respect of the security of Afghanistan?”
“The Minister says that she wants to hear from the industry. If she has looked into this matter, she will know that the entire industry was united in thinking that the Government’s response last November was too weak. The Secretary of State said in June 2010 that he would support the commitments made by the previous Government, and this House set out its clear view in January 2012. Now, years after all the Select Committee reviews, we have yet another consultation. Why does the Minister not listen to the view of this House, listen to the view of the industry and set up an independent review of whether self-regulation is working? Let us start saving some jobs and pubs before it is too late.”
“I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. He has made a number of sensible points, but it is interesting that his focus seems to be on contracts involving public money, as though people have a responsibility to pay on time only if public money is involved somewhere along the chain. The FSB has identified that 77% of businesses say that the private sector is the main problem, so does he agree that his suggestions for reporting should apply right across business, not just if there is public money involved?”
“Does the hon. Lady agree that there are two facets to the issue? First, big businesses set up unreasonable terms and conditions saying, “We are going to pay you over a very long period of time. If you don’t want that, go and deal with someone else.” Secondly, terms and conditions that might be considered more reasonable are put in place but not adhered to. Companies can string payment out for days and even weeks after the agreed terms. I caution her that different industries and different contracts require different payment terms because of a variety of complexities about how a contract might function. That is why it is difficult to legislate on this matter, but does she recognise that central difference?”
“I welcome the Government’s announcement of the potential naming and shaming in the new year of FTSE 100 and FTSE 250 firms that do not sign up to the prompt payment code, in an attempt—for which Labour had called—to change the culture on late payment. I am pleased that Members’ collective efforts have finally forced the Government to act. When researching the Twitter feed of the hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock—it is @SMetcalfeMP, in case anyone is interested; the hon. Gentleman appears to have last taken to the Twittersphere almost exactly a year ago, to inform the world—”
“It is a tremendous pleasure to respond to this welcome, timely and constructive Back-Bench debate on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition. I congratulate the hon. Members for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) and for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing the debate. I also join others in recognising the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). She has pursued this issue tirelessly through her “Be Fair, Pay on Time” campaign, for which she has rightly been nominated for a “Grassroot Diplomat” award by the Federation of Small Businesses. She was too modest to mention that, but I wanted to put on record the gratitude of the whole House for the work that she has done.”
“We recognise that legislation alone is not the answer to the problem and we need the Government to demonstrate real leadership, making it clear to big businesses that late payment is not acceptable. We do not feel that Ministers have done enough to sign firms up to the prompt payment code. A push on the prompt payment code is overdue but it is just the tip of the iceberg. The Government ultimately must decide whose side they are on. Will they send a one-nation message that they will support British firms in accessing their own money or will the collective voices of those small firms have to harry them along every small step on the way? The time for action is now.”
“We have a small business taskforce that is informed by people throughout the business environment who consider how all Labour’s policies impact on small businesses. We want to see more transparency to encourage prompt payment, including in reporting requirements such as payment performance and through policies in firms’ annual reports and accounts. We will encourage Labour MPs to champion the prompt payment code on behalf of SMEs in their constituencies and to try to ensure that as many companies as possible in their constituencies are signed up. We are calling on Ministers to ensure that prompt payment is better enforced down the supply chains of all those firms that win Government contracts. Government contractors who repeatedly pay slowly or late should be stripped of public sector contracts.”
“We realise that the problem cannot be resolved by legislation alone and that is why we set up the prompt payment code to make a moral case for large businesses to pay their suppliers on time and in a fair and responsible way. We worked alongside business bodies such as the Institute of Directors, the British Chambers of Commerce and the Institute of Credit Management to launch the code and to get 650 companies signed up. The code does not lay down specific tight deadlines on when payments must be made or place undue burdens on businesses. For large businesses with huge cash flows, it is not an onerous measure to sign up to. That is why we entirely support the spirit of the motion. One nation Labour’s approach would be about much more.”
“The large companies get to hold on to their money.” Phillip King, chief executive of the Institute of Credit Management, said that his preference would simply be for people to pay on time. One-nation Labour believes that everyone should play by the rules. It is unfair that local family firms should be threatened because large companies effectively use SMEs’ money to bankroll themselves. In government, we passed the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998, which enables firms to charge interest and obtain compensation on overdue payments from customers. We set targets in the March 2010 Budget, tightening rules on late payment by the public sector and setting Departments the goal of paying 80% of undisputed invoices within five days and requiring them to do so within 10 days.”
“The bank is then able to offer a 100% immediate advance to the supplier at lower than normal interest rates—but none the less, with interest—knowing that the invoice will ultimately be paid by the large company. That could exacerbate the problem, because large companies could further extend their payment terms as a result, potentially affecting suppliers outside the agreement and exacerbating an existing culture of slow and late payment. It is not just Labour saying that. Janet Barton, a freelance credit controller and specialist in helping businesses manage their cash flow, has said: “I have no idea why the Prime Minister thinks this is such a good idea.”
“Since then, we have had it confirmed that it will not happen a single day early and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly said, some are sceptical about whether it will be properly in place by the date when it should be. The directive should now be in place by March 2013—the latest possible date. That sends a negative message from the Government about the importance they place on this issue, about which hon. Members have spoken so powerfully in this debate. The supply chain finance scheme potentially reinforces the problem; it could positively institutionalise late payment as an acceptable business practice. Under the scheme, a bank is notified by a large company that an invoice has been approved for payment.”
“German businesses have a known advantage: German small firms now know they will get paid earlier, giving them a clear commercial advantage over British firms. In this period, too little progress has been made. Progress has been faltering on the PPC and, as has been said, on the EU late payment directive, a key weapon in Government’s armoury, we have seen U-turns and obfuscation. In September 2011, the previous but one Minister, the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), said in answer to Labour calls for action that he would transpose these rules into UK law early. He then performed what many hon. Members will feel was a deeply unhelpful U-turn and wrote to MPs to clarify his earlier statement, saying that this would happen at some point by March 2013.”
“In 2009, Labour’s last full year in office, there were 683 new signatories to the PPC, whereas, as has been said, in the first full year of this Government there were just 89. Even now, less than one fifth of all large firms are signed up, so the Government would be right to push for culture change, which is of course a part of the solution. The fact is that under this Government the situation has got worse. Intrum, Europe’s leading credit management services provider, says that in the past two years the UK’s payment index score has been progressively getting worse; in 2010, British and German performance was pretty much neck and neck, but in the past two years Britain’s score worsened, going from 150 to 161, whereas the Germans’ score went down to 147.”
“The previous Labour Government worked with the Institute of Directors, the British Chambers of Commerce and the Institute of Credit Management to set up the prompt payment code in 2008. Is it transparent, but it is under-publicised. It is certainly not a silver bullet, but it is one of the weapons in the Government’s portfolio. To put the environment in context, there are 4.5 million small businesses in the UK and just under 6,500 large firms. All of us know that small and medium-sized enterprises are very much the lifeblood of the British economy, through their contribution to our tax revenues and to growth, so when we see an issue that is so desperately holding back our small businesses, it is only natural that this House should want to act.”
“This time is not being spent on developing sales or marketing strategies, buying more efficiently, training staff, taking on apprentices or developing new product lines; it is simply being spent pursuing money that they are owed for goods or services they have provided. This is not just about the weighted activity that small firms could be doing if they were not chasing money, because some late repayments mean the difference between life and death for firms which, although successful, simply run out of cash. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills figures tell us that 4,000 businesses failed in 2008 simply as a result of late payments. Those businesses were successful in their own right, but were brought down by a lack of cash flow because of not being paid.”
“I had a tough job persuading Sheila and Gladys in particular that, although the nationwide banks might be a bit slow, they did have the wherewithal to honour our £5,000 invoice. The benefit of history might suggest that Sheila and Gladys were nearer to the truth than I was, but when I had my own business a few years later I soon understood why it took a certain type of person to be a credit controller. I rued the fact that I did not have a Sheila at my side to do the chasing. The truth is that for small firms the end of the sale is often the beginning of the problems, which is why this debate is so important. The average small firm is spending 13 working days chasing money owed.”
“Some 77% of its members say private sector organisations are the most likely to make late payments, and two thirds of members report having written off invoices in the previous 12 months, a fifth of which have been for more than £5,000, which is a significant sum for a small business to have to write off. Mid-size firms can usually employ credit control staff whose daily task is to try to extract from businesses payments that have already been agreed. I remember once, as a fledgling salesperson, having to go down to my company’s credit control office to inquire whether a customer of mine might be able to come off “stop” because they wanted to make a purchase. For me as a young man, that was a terrifying ordeal, because those credit control ladies take no prisoners.”
“The Government have a role to play in bringing big firms to book and in ensuring that fair terms are agreed in the first place and subsequently adhered to. The latest BACS research shows that more than 1 million small and medium-sized enterprises are currently being affected by late payment. Britain’s small businesses spend a total of 110 million hours every year chasing late payments, at a cost of £683 million. The FSB has also been very vocal about this issue. A recent FSB study found that 73% of small businesses had experienced late payment for the supply of goods and services in the past year.”
“Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) in respect of those which might apply when the new EU late payment directive comes into force. My hon. Friend mentioned the Government’s lack of urgency in the implementation of that directive, and after hearing about the record of one of our major supermarkets, he referred to the possibility of consumers using the performance of major businesses as a factor in deciding where to shop. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) rightly said that big firms need to play their part in putting the country on a stable economic footing, not only through their contribution to the economy, but in their relationship with their suppliers.”
“Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth focused on the fact that, as the Federation of Small Businesses has revealed, the private sector is the biggest culprit in this regard. She also referred to her letter to the FTSE 100 companies. The fact that she got 14 FTSE 100 businesses to sign up to the code shows that Members of Parliament can influence business practices without always having to legislate. She has taken direct action and it has changed the way 14 of our FTSE 100 businesses operate. The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire said the Government need to make more effort to ensure that Government organisations pay on time. That point could go across the agenda. She also rightly said that this is not just a legislative but a cultural issue. She also spoke about stipulating fair terms, as did my hon.”
“Gentleman on that issue, therefore. In pursuing this theme, the hon. Gentleman is very much in tune with my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who has said that if we are to be one nation, we must have more responsibility at the top and at the bottom. I am delighted that my right hon. Friend has expressed his determination to address the unfair—and, frankly, anti-business—relationship between some big businesses and small firms, and his determination that a one-nation Labour Government will not simply walk by on the other side of the road when confronted by such issues. This debate has provided stark examples of the sorts of unfairness to which my right hon. Friend has been referring. My hon.”
“Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock may be a matter of some dispute, his contribution to the debate was consistently constructive, and I agree with much of what he said. I agree with him that late payment is on the increase—although welcome steps were taken in an attempt to reduce it, the Government’s efforts have fallen back in recent years—and I agree with him about the circular effect whereby companies that receive payment late become late payers themselves. It becomes a culture. Businesses see it as part of the overall negotiation with their suppliers: not only do they negotiate on how much they will pay and for how much they will sell, but they try to extend the time that they have in which to pay and bring forward the time at which they will be paid. It is a completely unconstructive way of operating. I agree with the hon.”
“They say that impersonation is the sincerest form of flattery. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is flattered that people have taken the time to fake a Twitter account for him, if that is indeed what happened. The person who claimed to be him was proud to be the hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock. In any event, I hope that at the end of the debate someone will be able to announce to the Twittersphere that the Government have listened to the voice of tens of thousands of small businesses, and to business organisations such as the Institute of Credit Management, the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales and BACS which have been calling for leadership from the Government. While the contribution to Twitter of the hon.”
“The Minister is basically saying that the directive will make relatively little difference because the Government are already doing that, broadly speaking, so I am confused about why there has been such resistance to implementing it and why they will not do so until March 2013.”
“22. Despite what the Minister said, exports of goods in the second quarter continued to fall, and the £10.2 billion trade deficit in June was the worst since 1997. UK exporters tell me that the increasingly isolationist rhetoric by members of the Government has done little to develop the notion that Britain is open for business, and suggests that the Government just want to be alone.”
“I am interested in the logic of the Secretary of State’s position. If he believes it is right that academies and free schools should be able to take on whoever they like on the strength of the opinion of the head teacher, why is that not right for local authority schools? And if he believes it is right that we make the teachers’ training qualification more difficult, why is it right that academies can opt out of that?”
“The Minister referred to Professor Krebs. What does he have to say about the fact that Professor Krebs described the work the Government are doing as a crazy scheme? Surely he also ought to listen to him on that and stop this crazy scheme.”
“As the Prime Minister said goodbye to his Chief Whip, did it occur to him that he might have some difficulty persuading the rest of Europe to listen to what he was saying if he could not even convince his own Back Benchers?”
“My hon. Friend has been working incredibly hard on behalf of his constituents in Springburn, and we have been speaking a tremendous amount about this matter because both our factories—his in Springburn and mine in Chesterfield —are under the Remploy Healthcare banner. We agree entirely about the role of Government, but does he also agree that there needs to be a real collective working together by the management, the Government and the trade unions to ensure that the work force, who are under tremendous stress at the moment, feel empowered and involved in this process and have an understanding about what the long-term future might hold? Recent events have been incredibly stressful for those people, and have led to difficult working circumstances for them.”
“To return to the process, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) asked whether the Minister was satisfied that there was no threat of legal recourse from disappointed bidders and that the process was robust. I want to clarify whether the Minister is satisfied that the process was robust and that she is happy to take responsibility for it going forward, and that, as far as she is concerned, we are not going to come back to a west coast main line situation in which everyone says, “It was not my fault”. As long as she is happy and the process is robust, she can take responsibility for it.”
“T2. Reshuffles are always a busy time. Does the Cabinet Office have any specific plans to ensure that Cabinet Office staff do not have communication difficulties with the overwhelmingly male, rich and white Cabinet who have just been appointed?”
“Workers at the Remploy factory in Chesterfield will be relieved to know that there is a glimmer of light—the site is one of those invited to make a bid. On that note, will bids be accepted from organisations that no longer have a policy of disabled people first? Will disabled people still be prioritised in bids from such organisations?”
“Many of us who have sympathy with the need to reform the other place are still deeply concerned about these proposals. Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us what it was in his recent experiences that has suggested that the kind of democracy we need is one where politicians can say what the hell they like, stay for 15 years and never have to face the voters again?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. CCS Media in my constituency is a major supplier to South London Healthcare NHS Trust. It contacted me yesterday to try to get assurances that its bills will still be paid in the light of the recent unpleasant news. I have had a letter back from the Department of Health that offers no such assurance and states that the Department is discussing the point with lawyers. It is fundamental that the companies that supply the NHS trust know that they will be paid for the services they provide. Has Mr Speaker been notified of any intention to make a statement so that companies can be reassured that they will be paid for the services they provide to the NHS?”
“The patient satisfaction survey results have shown the greatest reduction in patient satisfaction in the history of the national health service. What will the Prime Minister do to turn around perceptions of the failure of the NHS under his Government?”
“Yesterday I met 35 small businesses that borrowed money to fuel growth but now feel that they were mis-sold interest rate swap products by their banks. There is a real urgency to investigate that issue before more otherwise healthy companies are brought down. Will the Minister join us in calling for banks, while they are investigating whether these products were mis-sold, not to foreclose on companies that are falling behind because of these products?”
“Members across the House are growing increasingly concerned about the evidence of interest rate swap mis-selling by banks. Members are hearing about firms in their constituencies that are being put out of business because of such hedge fund products. May we have an urgent debate on this issue, and ensure that banks do not foreclose on businesses while investigating whether mis-selling took place only then to have to go back and make compensatory payments after that business has collapsed?”
“The Prime Minister will be aware that the Minister for Immigration said last week, in the wake of the election results, that the Government must start to demonstrate more competence. Was the Prime Minister disappointed to discover yesterday that the Deputy Prime Minister does not understand the difference between the debt and the deficit?”
“What action can be taken to make sure that today is the last time we have to see this disgusting spectacle?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the Prime Minister’s statement earlier today, he refused—not for the first time—to answer a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) on account of his age. That sort of discrimination would not be accepted against black or female Members, so I have no idea why this House has tolerated, on numerous occasions, Members at the Dispatch Box refusing to answer my hon. Friend’s questions. Will you—or, indeed, Mr Speaker—say what action can be taken? I ask not on behalf of my hon. Friend, who can stick up for himself, but on behalf of every person in my constituency who gets discriminated against because of their age, and sees the Prime Minister do exactly that. This House should be above that.”
“The Secretary of State has gone to great pains to state that this will be a temporary position, and that it is not part of a longer-term Government strategy. I have sympathy for him as someone who has been the victim of briefings from the Treasury, but does he acknowledge that there would be less concern about the measure if the Treasury had not briefed that this would provide an opportunity to determine whether there was demand for further liberalisation in the future?”
““If the eight Sundays show an increase in profit for the stores concerned (and why wouldn’t they with the number of visitors expected in London during the Olympics?), those figures will be used to support a simple extension of what will then be existing legislation, to roll out full trading hours across the UK for seven days per week.” I could not have put it better myself. So, we have heard from Members across the House—and Mid Bedfordshire—from the small business community, from a director of Sainsbury’s, and from a coalition of thousands of voices across the country who are against these half-baked proposals. We have heard precious little to recommend them, and that is why I will be exercising my free vote to vote against them. I urge my colleagues from across the House to do the same.”
“Lady wrote: “During the budget speech, the Chancellor announced that ‘we will introduce legislation limited to relaxing the Sunday Trading laws for eight Sundays only, starting on 22nd July.’ It appears, however, that the previous day his aides had got a little carried away during a media briefing”— this is what I was telling the Secretary of State about; he will be happy to hear this— “and informed the press that this measure would, in effect, be a pre-cursor to relaxing Sunday trading permanently...However, there isn’t a single person in Westminster who believes that for one moment.” That is, that the measure would last for only eight Sundays.”
“That would have given them a realistic opportunity to discuss the request with their family and to exercise their right to opt out. A further amendment proposed the reduction of the notice period for exercising the opt-out to one month, so that shop workers could have a credible opportunity to decide whether they wished to work on a Sunday. As Members on the Government Benches consider which way to vote, they might want to think about what the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) wrote on the ConservativeHome website. I do not know whether you are a regular reader of that website, Mr Deputy Speaker; I am not, but this is damned good stuff, so I might start reading it more often. The hon.”
“At every level, when we see the actions of this Government, we see how desperately small business needs the Labour party to be that voice in politics that the governing parties have left so far behind. It is a matter of tremendous regret that, because of the way in which the Bill has been programmed, we will not have the opportunity to vote on our amendments. One of them would have enabled us to keep Sunday special, by allowing for the expansion of the Olympics while maintaining the difference and remaining mindful of the effects of the measures on shop staff. It would have limited the proposed number of hours to 13 on a Sunday. Another amendment would have entitled shop workers to two months’ notice of a request by their employer to work on a Sunday during the Olympics.”
“He told us he had consulted the Association of Convenience Stores, but it says: “Liberalising Sunday Trading would cost businesses and jobs.” He also told us that he had consulted USDAW, yet its briefing included the comment from Mr M from Stoke-on-Trent, who said of the proposals: “If this is allowed to happen, it will erode my working terms and conditions”. The Secretary of State might well have consulted a multitude of organisations, but he seems to have paid precious little attention to what they told him. On this side of the House, we are a party whose leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), has committed to make Labour the party of small business.”
“Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) was sceptical that the provisions to protect workers would make any difference to workers on the ground. Just before I got to my feet, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) made a thought-provoking speech, urging us all to slow down and warning us—this was possibly aimed in the direction of his own loved ones—to beware of becoming shopaholics. None the less, it was an important contribution and one that I enjoyed. The Secretary of State spoke of many of the groups that he had consulted, but he declined to tell the House what they had said. He told us he consulted the Federation of Small Businesses, but the FSB said that the Bill was: “Contrary to Government rhetoric about supporting small business on the high street”.”