Sir John Whittingdale
MP for Maldon · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s confirmation of our continuing support for Ukraine. He has set out the sustained threat from Russia facing not just Ukraine, but this country and the whole of Europe, yet for too many people, it is still business as usual.”
“That is perhaps even more relevant to the second prong of the Government’s proposals, which is about social media. I will come to that point, but before I finish talking about local media, I want to mention that another of the Government’s flagship policies is devolution.”
“The hon. Member is completely right that this issue must be addressed before we proceed. There is also the question of cost, raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke). There are people who probably do have access to broadband, if they choose to pay for it, but they cannot afford to do so.”
“I was the Minister responsible for the passage of the Media Act 2024, during the previous Parliament. It is a great delight to see some familiar faces with whom I have worked with in the past on the officials’ Bench.”
“Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) that young people are turning more and more to social media, but I do not think that this policy is the answer, because it looks to me like a very dangerous extension of Government interference in the freedom of the press and the right to free speech.”
“My right hon. Friend asks a perfectly valid question, and I want to acknowledge that there are concerns. We had a debate in Westminster Hall not that long ago, and a number of my colleagues—particularly from Scotland—turned up to express concern about the fact that the quality of reception via broadband in their constituencies is very poo…”
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“It ensures that contracts that have already been agreed before the introduction of the new provisions will not be affected. Any contract entered into prior to the commencement of the new provisions will be governed by the old listed events regime. That ensures certainty for deals that have already been concluded. Government amendment 11 is needed to ensure that the existing list of events, as published on gov.uk, is revised into groups A and B. It replicates transitional provisions contained in the Communications Act 2003 that mean that the existing list will otherwise be preserved without need for consultation. While provision was made for this division in the Communications Act, for some reason, relevant sections have not been commenced.”
“Clause 24 makes amendments to extend Ofcom’s existing powers to gather information and, if necessary, undertake enforcement action to reflect the changes made in clauses 20 to 23. Without these new powers, Ofcom would not be able to enforce the regime against the extended list of services brought in scope by the Bill. The clause amends section 104A of the Broadcasting Act 1996 to create a new power for Ofcom to require providers of the services in scope of the listed events regime and, in limited circumstances, certain other persons to supply it with any information it requires to carry out its functions in relation to listed events. It also creates a new section 104B that sets out the penalties that may be applied for failure to provide information. Clause 25 is a saving provision for clauses 20 to 23.”
“It disapplies the requirement for consultation in section 97(2) of the Broadcasting Act 1996 if the division follows the division into Group A and Group B events by reference to which OFCOM’s code under section 104 of the 1996 Act operates at that time. Clause 25, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 26 Public teletext service Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“(3) Where— (a) the events listed in the list in force immediately before the Secretary of State revises it under subsection (2) are treated, for any of the purposes of the code in force under section 104 of the Broadcasting Act 1996 at that time, as divided into two categories, and (b) the Secretary of State’s revision under subsection (2) makes the same division, section 97(2) of the Broadcasting Act is not to apply in relation to that revision of the list.”.— (Sir John Whittingdale.) This amendment requires the Secretary of State to revise the list of sporting and other national events so as to divide them into Group A and Group B events.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her indication of support. Essentially, my understanding is exactly that: the division is in effect already there and it had to be formalised through this clause. Question put and agreed to. Clause 24 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 25 Sections 20 to 23: saving provision Amendment made: 11, in clause 25, page 29, line 34, at end insert— “(2) On the date on which section 21 comes into force, the Secretary of State must revise the list maintained for the purposes of Part 4 of the Broadcasting Act 1996 in order to allocate each event which is a listed event on that date either to Group A or Group B.”
“Clause 26 ensures that our legal framework is up to date—I have to say this with a degree of nostalgia—by removing the now obsolete legal provision for a public teletext service. This is achieved by repealing sections 218 to 223 of the Communications Act 2003, which established such a service. I can remember consulting Teletext and Ceefax on many occasions, but I am afraid that it has now passed into the mists of time.”
“I am very happy to join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the journalists who made Teletext, for a time, such an essential service in keeping the nation updated with news as it happened. Indeed I do recall—”
“Therefore, in accordance with the intention of this Bill to modernise the legislative framework and to take account of the changes in the broadcasting landscape, I am afraid I must ask the Committee to support that clause 26 stand part of the Bill.”
“I am very happy to join the hon. Lady in paying tribute to the huge number of benefits that Teletext brought for quite a considerable length of time. It was not just news that could be accessed via Teletext; I understand that one of my colleagues booked her holiday regularly through Teletext. I think there was even a dating service that was provided by Teletext for a time. All these things are now available online in perhaps a little more sophisticated form than was originally the case. I am afraid it is the case that the most recent public teletext provider ceased to provide a service in 2009, and its licence was revoked in 2010.”
“I commend the clause, with sadness. Question put and agreed to. Clause 26 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 27 Further amendments relating to public service television Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“It removes transitional provisions that related to section 300 of the Communications Act, which was never brought into force and is now being repealed by this Bill. Government amendment 11 adds replacement transitional provisions. On this basis, I hope the Committee will support clause 27 and the Government amendments to it.”
“This clause and the Government amendments to it are technical in nature and I hope will not detain the Committee for long. Clause 27 introduces schedule 2, which makes amendments to broadcasting legislation to maintain operability of that legislation in light of the changes in part 1 of the Bill that we have already debated. For example, many of these amendments are intended to remove redundant references to the public teletext services from the 2003 Act. Government amendments 16 and 17 correct references to provision added by clause 20. If this were not taken forward, schedule 2 would incorrectly refer to the incorrect type of relevant service. Government amendment 18 is essentially a tidying-up exercise.”
“On a point of order, Mrs Cummins. If I may make a small correction, I understand that when we were debating the listed events earlier, I said that it excluded bidders if the event is listed. It is not the case that it excludes non-PSBs from bidding, but they may be inadvertently precluded from doing so.”
“By doing that, the Government are ensuring that there is a clear, legally meaningful definition to rely on. That will provide consistency and certainty for organisations that are subject to data protection legislation, as well as continued protection of people’s rights. The draft regulations are made under powers in the REUL Act, which allow Departments to revoke or replace references to EU-derived law. However, it is important to note that the regulations themselves do not remove any EU law rights; it is the European Union (Withdrawal) Act and the REUL Act that do that. The regulations are simply designed to replace references to EU law that would otherwise become meaningless at the end of the year.”
“Given that section 4 is set to be repealed at the end of 2023, it is important for us to take action through this draft statutory instrument to substitute the reference to it. Failing to do so would lead to ambiguity surrounding the interpretation of references to “fundamental rights and freedoms” in the data protection legislation. The lack of clarity could pose significant difficulties for organisations using the data protection legislation, resulting in inconsistent outcomes and legal uncertainty. That is why, through the draft regulations, the Government are clarifying that “fundamental rights and freedoms” refer to rights under the European convention on human rights, known as the ECHR, which has been given further effect in UK law under the Human Rights Act 1998.”
“The Data Protection Act 2018 and the UK General Data Protection Regulation, known as UK GDPR, require that the Government, the Information Commissioner and other organisations using personal data to consider people’s “fundamental rights and freedoms” in certain situations. For example, such rights and freedoms must be considered by data controllers when relying on the “legitimate interests” lawful ground for processing under article 6(1)(f) of the UK GDPR, and by Ministers when considering whether to create new permissions in relation to the use of people’s sensitive data. Before EU exit, those were taken to be rights under the EU charter of fundamental rights. Following the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, they have been those fundamental rights retained by section 4 of the Act.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Data Protection (Fundamental Rights and Freedoms) (Amendment) Regulations 2023. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Latham. As Members will be aware, the UK’s departure from the European Union provided us with an opportunity to amend, remove and replace unsuitable retained EU law. The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023, which was passed earlier this year, set out that certain EU-derived laws, principles, rights and regulations should cease to apply in the UK by the end of 2023.”
“My hon. Friend raises a wholly theoretical proposition. Should it ever occur, we will probably have to define our own version back in Committee. For the moment, however, we are members of the ECHR and the Human Rights Act applies, and it is the rights as defined in that Act to which we will now refer. Subject to the approval of the Committee here gathered, the draft regulations will ensure clarity for organisations. From the end of 2023, they will provide ongoing protection for people’s rights when their personal data is processed by replacing a redundant definition of fundamental rights with a new one based on rights protected by domestic law in the UK. I commend the regulations to the Committee.”
“It would leave existing UK law referring to something that is essentially meaningless and of which we would no longer be a member: the EU charter of fundamental rights. To that extent, the regulations will ensure that the freedoms and rights are still relevant and refer to a convention of which we remain a member. I do not think, therefore, that the regulations represent a reduction in the rights of citizens of this country; they simply tidy up the existing statute book as a result of the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union, using powers passed by Parliament in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act and the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act. On that basis, I welcome the rather qualified support that the hon. Member for Rhondda gave at the end. Question put and agreed to.”
“We have looked at existing case law, which is quite extensive, and the courts have used those articles as justification for data protection. I therefore do not think there is any concern to be had by that. The hon. Gentleman also suggested that this might somehow put data adequacy at risk. We had a slight reprise of the debate we had last week on the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill with the right hon. Member for East Ham, who, I have absolutely no doubt, will be rigorous in his pursuit of the Department for Work and Pensions through his chairing of the Work and Pensions Committee. I will therefore probably leave it to my colleagues in DWP to answer the precise questions on that particular point. On data adequacy, I do think there might be a concern should we fail to pass these particular regulations.”
“The regulations do obviously refer to the Human Rights Act, although there is a reference to the convention rights within that Act. I say to the hon. Gentleman that there is no intention to somehow make it easier for surveillance to take place or infringe data protection rights. In the Government’s view, the rights referred to in the ECHR provide an equivalent level of protection to that which is available under the EU charter of fundamental rights. The regulations therefore represent no shift in the level of protection provided to citizens in this country by replacing the first reference with this particular reference. The hon. Member for Rhondda rightly refers to articles 8 and 10 of the European convention as the principal articles that have been interpreted by the courts to confer privacy rights and in the area of data protection.”
“I will do what I can to soothe the anguished breast of the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Rhondda. He said that you and he share an interest in relieving melanoma, Mrs Latham. I would like to put on record that you and I share something as well: we are both holders of the order of merit of Ukraine, conferred by President Zelensky—something of which I am very proud, and I have no doubt you are too. The hon. Member for Rhondda made a number of points, most of which appeared to see conspiracy where I have to say to him none actually exists. He followed the lead of my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley in pursuing the theoretical question of what would happen if the UK left the European convention on human rights. As I said in response to my hon. Friend, the Government have no intention of the UK leaving the convention.”
“I would have thought that the Opposition would welcome that. It is not a new measure; it was contained in the fraud plan that the Government published back in May 2022. The Government have been examining that measure, and we have always made it clear that we would bring it forward at an appropriate parliamentary time when a vehicle was available. This is a data Bill, and the measure is specific to it. We estimate that it will result in a saving to the taxpayer of around £500 million by the end of 2028-29. I am surprised that the Opposition should question that. As I said, the Bill has been considered at length in Committee. It is important that we consider it on Report, in order that it achieve the next stage of its progress through Parliament. On that basis, I reject the motion. Question put.”
“We scrutinised it in depth in Committee. The hon. Gentleman is right that the Government have tabled a number of amendments for the House to consider today, and he has done the same. The vast majority are technical, and the number sounds large because a lot are consequential on original amendments. One or two address new aspects, and I will be happy to speak to those as we go through them during this afternoon’s debate. Nevertheless, they represent important additions to the Bill. The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove), who is sitting next to me, has drawn the House’s attention to the fact that amending the Bill to allow the Department for Work and Pensions access to financial data will make a significant contribution to identifying fraud.”
“I begin by joining the hon. Member for Rhondda (Sir Chris Bryant) in expressing the condolences of the House to his predecessor, Allan Rogers. He served as a Member of Parliament during my first nine years in this place. I remember him as an assiduous constituency Member of Parliament, and I am sure we all share the sentiments expressed by the hon. Gentleman. It is a pleasure to return to the Dispatch Box to lead the House through Report stage of the Bill. We spent considerable time discussing it in Committee, but the hon. Gentleman was not in his post at that time. I welcome him to his position. He may regret that he missed out on Committee stage, which makes him keen to return to it today. The Bill is an essential piece of legislation that will update the UK’s data laws, making them among the most effective in the world.”
“I want to make it absolutely clear that the Bill will continue to maintain the highest standards of data protection that the British people rightly expect, but it will also help those who use our data to make our lives healthier, safer and more prosperous. That is because we have convened industry leaders and experts to co-design the Bill at every step of the way. We have held numerous roundtables with both industry experts in the field and campaigning groups. The outcome, I believe, is that the legislation will ensure our regulation reflects the way real people live their lives and run their businesses.”
“The current one-size-fits-all, top-down approach to data protection that we inherited from the European Union has led to public confusion, which has impeded the effective use of personal data to drive growth and competition, and to support key innovations. The Bill seizes on a post-Brexit opportunity to build on our existing foundations and create an innovative, flexible and risk-based data protection regime. This bespoke model will unlock the immense possibilities of data use to improve the lives of everyone in the UK, and help make the UK the most innovative society in the world through science and technology.”
“I share the hon. Lady’s appreciation of the importance of data adequacy with the European Union. It is not the case that we have to replicate every aspect of GDPR to be assessed as adequate by the European Union for the purposes of data exchange. Indeed, a number of other countries have data adequacy, even though they do not have precisely the same framework of data protection legislation. In drawing up the measures in the Bill, we have been very clear that we do not wish to put data adequacy at risk, and we are confident that nothing in the Bill does so. That is not only my view; it is the view of the expert witnesses who gave evidence in Committee. It is also the view of the Information Commissioner, who has been closely involved in all the measures before us today. I recognise the concern, but I do not believe it has any grounds.”
“I have already thanked all the external stakeholders who have worked with us to ensure that the Bill functions at its best. Taken together, we believe these amendments will benefit the economy by £10.6 billion over the next 10 years. That is more than double the estimated impact of the Bill when it was introduced in the spring.”
“I can guarantee that there is nothing in the Government’s proposals that we believe puts data adequacy at risk. That is not just our view; it is the view of all those we have consulted, including the Information Commissioner. He was previously the information commissioner in New Zealand, which has its own data protection laws but is, nevertheless, recognised as adequate by the EU. He is very familiar with the process required to achieve and keep data adequacy, and it is his view, as well as ours, that the Bill achieves that objective. We believe the Government amendments will strengthen the fundamental elements of the Bill and reflect the Government’s commitment to unleashing the power of data across our economy and society.”
“I will come on to that, because we have tabled a few amendments on digital verification and the accreditation of digital identity. We are proposing a voluntary framework. We believe that using digital identity has many advantages, and those will become greater as the technology improves, but there is no compulsory or mandatory element to the use of digital identity. I understand why the hon. Lady raises that point, and I am happy to give her that assurance.”
“It is true that we do not have Government amendments to that effect, but it is a central part of the Bill that we have already debated in Committee. Making data more available to researchers is, indeed, an objective of the Bill, and I share my right hon. and learned Friend’s view that it will produce great value. If he thinks more needs to be done in specific areas, I would be very happy to talk to him further or to respond in writing.”
“Once operational, the running of the register will be funded by those who benefit most. The Government’s amendments include powers to, through regulations, levy charges on apparatus owners and request relevant information. The introduction of reasonable charges payable by those who benefit from the service, rather than the taxpayer, will ensure that the NUAR is a sustainable service for the future. Other amendments will ensure that there is the ability to realise the full potential of this data for other high-value uses, while respecting the rights of asset owners.”
“The national underground asset register, or NUAR, is a digital map that will improve both the efficiency and safety of underground works, by providing secure access to privately and publicly owned location data about the pipes and cables beneath our feet. This will underpin the Government’s priority to get the economy growing by expediting projects such as new roads, new houses and broadband roll-out—the hon. Gentleman and I also share a considerable interest in that. The NUAR will bring together valuable data from more than 700 public and private sector organisations about the location of underground utilities assets. This will deliver £490 million per year of economic growth, through increased efficiency, reduced asset strikes and reduced disruptions for citizens and businesses.”
“That can make it harder for our counter-terrorism police to carry out their job effectively. That is why we are making changes to allow the police to take proactive steps to pseudonymise biometric data received from international partners—obviously, that means holding the material without including information that identifies the person—and hold indefinitely under existing provisions in the Counter-Terrorism Act information that identifies the person it relates to. Again, those changes have been requested by counter-terrorism police and will support them to better protect the British public.”
“As the hon. Gentleman knows, I strongly share his view about the need to act against abuse of legal procedures by the Russian state. As he will appreciate, this aspect of the Bill emanated from the Home Office. However, I have no doubt that my colleagues in the Home Office will have heard the perfectly valid point he makes. I hope that they will be able to provide him with further information about it, and I will draw the matter to their attention. I wish to say just a few more words about the biometric material received from our international partners, as a tool in protecting the public from harm. Sometimes, counter-terrorism police receive biometrics from international partners with identifiable information. Under current laws, they are not allowed to retain these biometrics unless they were taken in the past three years.”
“For consistency, related amendments are made to the definitions used in provisions relating to direct marketing for the purposes of democratic engagement. Finally, hon. Members may be aware that the Data Protection Act 2018 currently permits registered political parties to process sensitive political opinions data without consent for the purposes of their political activities. The exemption does not however currently apply to elected representatives, candidates, recall petitioners and permitted participants in referendums. The amendment addresses that anomaly and allows those individuals to benefit from the same exemption as registered political parties.”
“I turn to the use of data for the purposes of democratic engagement, which is an issue of considerable interest to Members of the House. The Bill includes provisions to facilitate the responsible use of personal data by elected representatives, registered political parties and others for the purposes of “democratic engagement”. We have tabled further related amendments for consideration today, including adding a fuller definition of what constitutes “democratic engagement activities” to help the reader understand that term wherever it appears in the legislation. The amendments provide for former MPs to continue to process personal data following a successful recall petition, to enable them to complete urgent casework or hand over casework to a successor, as they do following the Dissolution of Parliament.”
“I understand the hon. Lady’s point. There would need to be a legitimate purpose for accessing such information and I am happy to supply her with further detail about precisely how that works. The hon. Lady intervenes at an appropriate point, because I was about to say that the provision will allow the National Underground Asset Register service to operate in England and Wales. We intend to bring forward equivalent provisions as the Bill progresses in the other House, subject to the usual agreements, to allow the service to operate in Northern Ireland, but the Scottish Road Works Commissioner currently maintains its own register. It has helped us in the development of the NUAR, so the hon. Lady may like to talk to the Scottish Road Works Commissioner on that point.”
“To maximise the benefits to business and other organisations, the amendments make it absolutely clear that organisations have to keep records only in relation to their high-risk processing activities. The Online Safety Act 2023 took crucial steps to shield our children, and it is also important that we support grieving families who are seeking answers after tragic events where a child has taken their own life, by removing obstacles to accessing social media information that could be relevant to the coroner’s investigations.”
“I am happy to look at that, as the hon. Gentleman suggests. I hope the changes we are making to the Bill will provide greater legal certainty for MPs and others who undertake the processing of personal data for the purposes of democratic engagement. The Bill starts and ends with reducing burdens on businesses and, above all, on small businesses, which account for over 99% of UK firms. In the future, organisations will need to keep records of their processing activities only when those activities are likely to result in a high risk to individuals. Some organisations have queried whether that means they will have to keep records in relation to all their activities if only some of their processing activities are high risk. That is not the Government’s intention.”
“A major area of loss is the under-declaration of financial assets, which we cannot currently tackle through existing powers. Given the need to address the scale of fraud and error in the welfare system, we need to modernise and strengthen the legal framework, to allow the Department for Work and Pensions to keep pace with change and stand up to future fraud challenges. As I indicated earlier, the fraud plan, published in 2022, contains a provision outlining the DWP’s intention to bring forward new powers that would boost access to data held by third parties. The amendment will enable the DWP to access data held by third parties at scale where the information signals potential fraud or error. That will allow the DWP to detect fraud and error more proactively and protect taxpayers’ money from falling into the hands of fraudsters.”
“During the passage of the Online Safety Act, my noble colleague Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay made it clear that we are aware of the importance of data preservation to bereaved parents, coroners and others involved in investigations. It is very important that we get this right. I hear what the hon. Lady says and give her an assurance that we will continue to work across Government, with the Ministry of Justice and others, in ensuring that we do so. The hon. Member for Rhondda made reference to proposed new schedule 1, relating to improving our ability to identify and tackle fraud in the welfare system. I am grateful for the support of the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove). In 2022-23, the Department for Work and Pensions overpaid £8.3 billion in fraud and error.”
“I understand the concerns of the hon. Lady. We want to do all that we can to support the bereaved parents of children who have lost their lives. As it stands, the amendment will require Ofcom, following notification from a coroner, to issue information notices to specified providers of online services, requiring them to hold data they may have relating to a deceased child’s use of online services, in circumstances where the coroner suspects the child has taken their own life, which could later be required by a coroner as relevant to an inquest. We will continue to work with bereaved families and Members of the other place who have raised concerns.”
“The purpose of the proposed new schedule is narrowly focused. It will ensure that where benefit claimants may also have considerable financial assets, that is flagged with the DWP for further examination, but it does not allow people to go through the contents of people’s bank accounts. It is an alarm system where financial institutions that hold accounts of benefit claimants can match those against financial assets, so where it appears fraud might be taking place, they can refer that to the Department.”
“I am surprised that the Opposition regard this as something to question. Obviously, they are entitled to seek further information, but I would hope that they share the wish to identify where fraud is taking place and take action against it. This is about claimants of benefits, including universal credit—”
“I can tell the hon. Gentleman that it is not the case that the DWP intends to focus on the state pension—and that is confirmed by my hon. Friend the Member for Corby. This is specifically about ensuring that means-related benefit claimants are eligible for the benefits for which they are currently claiming. In doing that, the identification and the avoidance of fraud will save the taxpayer a considerable amount of money.”
“I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for his contribution, and I share his principled concern that the powers of the state should be limited to those that are absolutely necessary. Those who are in receipt of benefits funded by the taxpayer have an obligation to meet the terms of those benefits, and this provision is one way of ensuring that they do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Corby has already said that he would be very happy to discuss this matter with my right hon. Friend further, and I am happy to do the same if that is helpful to him.”
“The amendments will support the Government’s ability to meet their commitment, first, to provide open banking with a long-term regulatory framework, and, secondly, to establish an open data scheme for road fuel prices. It will also more generally strengthen the toolkit available to Government to deliver future smart data schemes. The amendments ensure that the range of data and activities essential to smart data schemes are better captured and more accurately defined. That includes types of financial data and payment activities that are integral to open banking. The amendments, as I say, are complicated and technical and therefore I will not go into further detail.”
“All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is that the Government have made it clear that there is no intention to focus on claimants of the state pension. That is an undertaking that has been given. I am sure that Ministers from the DWP would be happy to give further evidence to the right hon. Gentleman, who may well wish to look at this further in his Committee. Finally, I wish to touch on the framework around smart data, which is contained in part 3 of the Bill. The smart data powers will extend the Government’s ability to introduce smart data schemes, building on the success of open banking, which is the UK’s most developed data sharing scheme, with more than 7 million active users.”