Sir John Whittingdale
MP for Maldon · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s confirmation of our continuing support for Ukraine. He has set out the sustained threat from Russia facing not just Ukraine, but this country and the whole of Europe, yet for too many people, it is still business as usual.”
“That is perhaps even more relevant to the second prong of the Government’s proposals, which is about social media. I will come to that point, but before I finish talking about local media, I want to mention that another of the Government’s flagship policies is devolution.”
“The hon. Member is completely right that this issue must be addressed before we proceed. There is also the question of cost, raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke). There are people who probably do have access to broadband, if they choose to pay for it, but they cannot afford to do so.”
“I was the Minister responsible for the passage of the Media Act 2024, during the previous Parliament. It is a great delight to see some familiar faces with whom I have worked with in the past on the officials’ Bench.”
“Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) that young people are turning more and more to social media, but I do not think that this policy is the answer, because it looks to me like a very dangerous extension of Government interference in the freedom of the press and the right to free speech.”
“My right hon. Friend asks a perfectly valid question, and I want to acknowledge that there are concerns. We had a debate in Westminster Hall not that long ago, and a number of my colleagues—particularly from Scotland—turned up to express concern about the fact that the quality of reception via broadband in their constituencies is very poo…”
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“The BBC will have a duty to serve all the nations and regions, which of course includes England. Of the six appointees appointed by the Government under the public appointments process, four are non-executive directors who will each have the additional responsibility of representing one of the nations of the UK. There will therefore be a non-executive director who has the additional responsibility of representing the interests of English licence fee payers.”
“A lot of this is a matter for the BBC rather than the Government, but the letter stated that in the next charter period the BBC will continue its commitment “to spend network television production roughly in line with the population size of each nation.” Other issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised are more a matter for the BBC, and I am sure that he will wish to discuss them with it.”
“Gentleman raised specific points about the BBC’s need to serve the nations, and Scotland in particular. There are two elements in the White Paper that we believe will make a significant difference. The first is the confirmation that one of the members of the board will be there to act as a voice for Scotland, as well as bringing additional skills. Secondly, there will be a specific service licence for Scotland, which Ofcom will issue, as it will for the other nations of the UK; that will set out the expectations of how the BBC will go about meeting that requirement. The hon. Gentleman may be aware that the BBC sent a letter this morning to the Cabinet Secretary for Culture, Europe and External Affairs in the Scottish Government, whom I spoke to yesterday afternoon. It set out some of its proposals in more detail.”
“The hon. Gentleman has an expert knowledge of the workings of the BBC. I welcome the fact that he is able to support a number of the proposals set out in the White Paper. He referred to a couple of things that were not in it, such as a proposal that the BBC should not schedule popular programmes against ITV’s popular programmes. I have said until I am blue in the face that the Government do not wish—and should not be able—to tell the BBC when to schedule programmes. The fact that that proposal does not appear in the White Paper should not therefore come as a great surprise to him. Our intention is for the BBC to publish the salaries of talent earning more than £450,000, but we hope that the BBC will go further in due course, so as to obtain greater transparency on salaries. We will continue to talk to the BBC about that. The hon.”
“My right hon. and learned Friend is right. I have always voted in favour of the preservation of foxhunting, and we have done a lot of fox shooting this morning. The independence of the BBC—particularly its editorial independence—has always been at its heart, and that is one of the reasons it is so trusted around the world. It has always been our intention not to diminish that but to strengthen it, which is what I believe the White Paper delivers. I previously quoted the chairman of the BBC Trust welcoming the proposals in the White Paper, and I understand that the director general has now put out a statement: “This white paper delivers a mandate for the strong, creative BBC the public believe in.””
“No, that is not quite correct. Six members of the board—the chairman, the deputy chairman, and one non-executive director from each of the four nations of the UK—will be appointed by the Government, using the public appointments process, but the size of the board will be for the BBC to decide. Our proposals exactly match the recommendations of Sir David Clementi, who suggested that the board could contain between 12 and 14 members, and that it should be for the BBC to decide. The BBC will determine the number of additional non-executive directors as well as the split between executive directors and NEDs on the board, which will comprise a total board membership of between 12 and 14.”
“I am extremely grateful to the Chairman of the Select Committee for his welcome for our proposals. It is absolutely right that we looked carefully at the recommendations in the report the Committee produced under his chairmanship, as indeed the Government examined the proposals in the report produced under the previous Chairman—both were highly influential. On his specific point, as I have made clear, the Government believe that diversity should be a central priority of the BBC, which is why, for the first time, we are enshrining it in the public purposes. Precisely how the BBC goes about delivering that is a matter for the BBC, but because it is now within the public purposes, it will be for the external regulator, Ofcom, to determine whether it is delivering on that purpose.”
“That was utterly desperate. Just because the hon. Gentleman cannot find anything in the statement to disagree with, he now thinks there must be something hidden away that I have not mentioned to which he can object. The detail of the White Paper is well known to the director-general and the chairman of the BBC Trust, both of whom have said it is an excellent White Paper that will help to ensure that the BBC continues to thrive.”
“We are very keen to address that, in terms of both the diverse range of talent behind the camera and in the production process and those who appear on-screen. In particular, we want to ensure that those who choose to watch the BBC, from every section of our community, find programming they want to watch.”
“I very much agree with my hon. Friend, who is right to highlight this point. A number of people have been pressing this matter, not least my hon. Friend the Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy, who is sitting beside me, and the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), whom I am pleased to see in his place. I would also like to thank Lenny Henry, who has been in to talk to us several times about the matter. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), because research we have conducted shows that, although appreciation of the BBC is high throughout the country, there is a feeling, particularly among some black, Asian and minority ethnic audiences, that they are underserved.”
“The Government have no intention of revisiting that until the next licence fee settlement, which will be part of a new, more independent and transparent process in which we can discuss the funding needs of the BBC with the BBC.”
“First, raiding the BBC licence fee to pay for Government projects was something that the Labour Government initiated with the analogue switchover budget. Secondly, as I have made plain to the hon. Gentleman and as I said in my statement, the funding settlement we agreed with the BBC last year represented a broadly flat-cash settlement, taking into account the agreement that the licence fee should begin to rise again after a freeze, that we will close the iPlayer loophole and that we will do away with the top slices for broadband and local television. Thirdly, I was explicit that the licence fee settlement was for five years.”
“I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. I remember his campaign when he was the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and I recall that several previous Chairmen and all Chairmen since have been pressing this case. There is no question but that the National Audit Office is extremely effective in ensuring that the taxpayer—in this case, the licence fee payer—extracts maximum value for money. I spoke to the Comptroller and Auditor General yesterday, and he reiterated what my hon. Friend has said—that he has no interest or wish to get involved in independent editorial decisions. His sole concern is to make sure that the public get the maximum value from the money they put into the BBC.”
“I understand the hon. Lady’s concern, but I think she will accept that many of these matters are for the BBC rather than for the Government to lay down, particularly in respect of how the BBC goes about serving all its different audiences that make up the UK. On board membership, there will be opportunities for non-executive directors to be chosen not just under the public appointments process as set out by the Government, but by the BBC board. I am sure that it will want to appoint the best possible people to represent every section of the community.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the BBC World Service is admired across the world and does a fantastic job projecting this country’s values around the globe. BBC global news is a different beast—it is a separate commercial subsidiary of the BBC, which actually loses money—and it is perhaps not achieving the same success as the World Service. We have said that the BBC needs to look at that carefully with a view to either making it perform much better or examining different ways of achieving the objectives.”
“We have said that the process of setting the future licence fee will be more independent and transparent, and that the BBC and the Government will have a proper opportunity to discuss funding needs. As for the issue of public opinion, the board will be expected—this will be a clear expectation—to establish mechanisms whereby it will take account of the views of the public on all aspects of the BBC’s operations.”
“I think I can confirm everything that the right hon. Gentleman has asked me to confirm. The mid-term review is indeed a health check. We have no intention or wish to revisit the charter and agreement unless it appears that something has gone very badly wrong and we need to make amendments. The world is changing fast and we do not know exactly what the media landscape will look like in five years’ time. That is the reason for the health check, but I repeat that it is certainly not our intention for it to represent any sort of mini-charter review. As I have said, future appointments made by the Government will be made through the public appointments process, which will involve the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments and a panel that will assess the suitability of those who apply for positions.”
“I would point out, however, that one of the greatest disasters for the BBC, which resulted in its loss of £100 million, was the acquisition of Lonely Planet by BBC Worldwide.”
“I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his comments. Given his long-time knowledge of and interest in the BBC, I am pleased that he agrees that our proposals represent a good, strong future for the BBC. My right hon. Friend asked specifically about the National Audit Office. It has been agreed that the NAO should be able to conduct value-for-money studies of all publicly funded aspects of the BBC’s operation, and to become the financial auditor. The licence fee payer has a strong interest in the BBC’s commercial activities, because the more the BBC can raise through those activities, the less will be the call on the licence fee payer. We are continuing to discuss the extent to which, and how, the National Audit Office should examine whether full value for money is being obtained from BBC Worldwide.”
“Gentleman with a copy if he has not already seen it.”
“My answer to the hon. Gentleman is very similar to the answer that I gave the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (John Nicolson). Wales, too, will have a member on the BBC board, in that one of the non-executive directors will be responsible for speaking for Wales, as well as bringing other skills to the board. Ofcom will set out a clear service licence giving more details of how the BBC will be expected to meet its requirement to serve the needs of the people of Wales. As I said earlier, today the BBC wrote not only to the Cabinet Secretary in the Scottish Government, but to the First Minister of Wales— [Interruption.] Yes, it will be interesting to find out who opens the envelope. The BBC’s letter set out more details about how it intends to go about delivering that task, and I shall be happy to supply the hon.”
“I am concerned to learn that the extremely persuasive and rational arguments that are always advanced by my right hon. Friend are not being aired on the BBC. That is a matter for the BBC, but I hope that it will reconsider. Under our new public purposes, we have rephrased them to make the expectations clearer. The first public purpose will now involve providing “impartial news and information to help people understand and engage with the world around them”. This is the first time that impartiality—and, indeed, diversity—have been put up front at the top of the public purposes. Also, under our proposals, it will now be for an independent external regulator, in the form of Ofcom, to determine any complaints on those grounds; up till now, that has been done by the BBC.”
“I hugely appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks. He has an extremely strong track record of campaigning in this area, and for him to welcome our proposals in this way is extremely encouraging. I also agree that there is a lot more work to do. It will be for the BBC to make decisions on the allocation of budgets and on how it goes about delivering on the new, explicit requirement that has been set out. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will continue to talk to the BBC about that, as will we.”
“The window of creative competition was put in place by the BBC. Under the existing arrangements, the independent production quota is 25% and then the WOCC accounts for another 25% chunk of content, which can be competed for by the independent production sector. The remaining 50% is reserved for the BBC’s in-house production. It is that 50% that we are removing, so, in essence, our proposal is to increase the WOCC to 75%.”
“I would be very happy to do so. On the issue of digital audio broadcasting, I fully recognise that there is still some way to go to achieve the coverage that will be necessary before we can consider switching off analogue. The ability to listen to DAB on the move in cars is one of the crucial factors that will influence our decision, and there is still more work to be done. However, we expect the BBC to continue to take a leading role in this regard. My hon. Friend asked some specific questions. It has long been recognised that the licence fee is essentially a tax, because it is a compulsory fee imposed by the Government and enforced by criminal sanction. It is recognised as a tax by the Office for Budget Responsibility and others on that basis. I turn now to my hon. Friend’s specific question about what is known colloquially as the WOCC.”
“The quotas are of course a minimum requirement, and it is for the BBC to do its best to exceed them. In answer to the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (John Nicolson), I referred to the letter that the director-general sent today to the Cabinet Secretary for Culture, Europe & External Affairs in the Scottish Government, in which he commits the BBC to continuing to do its best to increase the proportion of BBC network production expenditure in each of the nations of the UK. He said “we recognise that this spend needs to work harder” and that he will be doing his best to ensure that Scotland receives funding that at least is proportional to its population. I am sure that the hon. Lady and her colleagues can pursue that further with the director-general.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. The BBC now has certainty about its funding over the course of the next licence fee period, and I hope that it will continue to recognise the importance of local radio. The matter was raised by several hon. Members in our discussion yesterday, and I made it clear then that I regard local radio as something that best exemplifies the BBC’s public service remit. I hope that the National Audit Office’s work will bear out that there is scope for achieving efficiencies, so that even more of the licence fee payers’ money can be devoted to front-line services such as local radio.”
“I agree with the hon. Lady on stressing the importance of diversity in all that the BBC does, which is about not only serving BAME audiences and ensuring greater representation both in front of and behind the camera, but gender equality and disabled people. It is for the BBC to draw up its own plans and to deliver the general public purpose that we have set out, but it will also obviously be held to account by Ofcom. It is not for us to tell the BBC precisely how the purpose should be delivered.”
“In that way, the BBC will be obtaining greater content on what is going on in local authorities and, in doing so, will be supporting local newspapers, which we hope will help to ensure that they continue to provide their service.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that, because I agree with her that it is tremendously important. Local newspapers play a vital role in sustaining local democracy and will become more important as more powers are passed down to devolved Administrations and local government. For quite some time I have therefore sought to encourage the BBC to support local newspapers, rather than undermine them, as it has occasionally been accused of doing. I am delighted that an agreement has been reached in principle between the BBC and the News Media Association, which represents the local press, whereby the BBC has now agreed to fund a reporting service to cover local authorities and public services. It intends to fund 150 journalists, who will be employed by qualifying local organisations, not by the BBC.”
“There is a long-standing principle that those who enjoy public service television should be required to pay for it through the licence fee. There is no question but that the advent of the iPlayer and catch-up services has created a loophole, which has meant that the BBC has lost a significant, and probably growing, amount of revenue. It was part of the agreement that we reached with the BBC last year that we should close that loophole and, in essence, apply the same rules in today’s age as have always applied in the past: if someone watches public service content, they should pay the licence fee, which funds the BBC.”
“As I have previously set out, we have now put impartiality as one of the first requirements in the public purposes of the BBC. Ensuring impartiality becomes particularly challenging in such a hotly contested issue as our membership of the European Union, which is why I asked the BBC to ensure that it had a fast-track system for resolving complaints of bias from either side of the argument. I was pleased that the BBC Trust agreed that that would be put in place and recognised its importance. I should also say that that requirement for impartiality does not just apply to the BBC; it applies to all those with a broadcasting licence, who are required to be objective and impartial. That includes the commercial broadcasters, as well as the BBC.”
“That is an issue that we will continue to discuss with the BBC. However, I would simply say to the director-general and others that the proposals that we have put in place are those that were recommended by Sir David Clementi. They do allow the BBC to appoint at least half the membership of its board, and we have ensured that the BBC director-general’s editorial independence is enshrined in the charter.”
“I am aware of the concerns expressed by commercial radio about some aspects of BBC radio provision. Certainly, the requirement that there should be distinctiveness in BBC services applies to radio just as it does to television. In future, if commercial radio has complaints, it will of course be able to voice them to Ofcom, the independent regulator. On the opening up of content for independent production, the 100% ambition that we have set the BBC applies to television. For radio, the BBC has agreed that it will aim to reach 60%, which would represent a huge increase on the present level, and provide sufficient opportunities to the radio independent production sector.”
“Obviously, I welcome the BBC’s announcement of additional investment in Birmingham. The local newspaper initiative that I mentioned earlier is going to be based at BBC Birmingham. I am aware that Members representing west midlands constituencies have long pressed the BBC to do more. It is a matter for the BBC, but I welcome the fact that it is responding to that. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s second point: the integrity and impartiality of the BBC is absolutely fundamental. It is the reason the BBC is respected around the world, and we are determined to preserve and, if anything, strengthen it.”
“I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. The BBC rightly wishes to make available its news content on whichever platform viewers and listeners choose to access it, and that includes online. There have been concerns that, sometimes, BBC online services have strayed too far away from that into soft news and beyond, and that represents unfair competition. The requirement for distinction will apply online just as it does to all other BBC services, and that can be adjudicated by Ofcom.”
“The position as regards reporting for the Government appointees, chosen through the public appointment process, will be no different from the responsibilities of the BBC Trust. Once appointed, they are independent and are not subject to any instruction by the Government. They will be accountable to the licence fee payer and to Parliament, which is where Select Committees have a very important role. I agree with the hon. Lady about the importance of not having any political pressure put on BBC employees, whatever their level, so I hope that she will join me in condemning the petition initiated by the “Jeremy for PM” campaign, which now has 15,000 signatures, calling for the sacking of the BBC political editor because they did not like one of the stories she reported.”
“First, let me say that I imagine that my hon. Friend’s constituency is not particularly happy today and I send my condolences on another front for which I am responsible, which is sport. I cannot give my hon. Friend a precise figure for the potential job opportunities offered by opening up competition, but we believe that allowing the independent production sector the ability to compete for 100% of the BBC’s content will mean that hundreds of millions of pounds are available for the sector should it win those commissions. Obviously, that will create jobs alongside. The creative industries, as I said, have proved to be one of our most successful sectors of the economy with the fastest rate of job creation.”
“As I said earlier, none of the BBC’s existing services will be made subject to voluntary subscription through the iPlayer. The pilot that the BBC is considering will be for additional services that are not currently provided and funded by the licence fee. I hope that the BBC will consider boosting children’s programming, because I agree that it is fundamental. It is an area where access through the iPlayer is likely to be higher than that for other sections of the population. I am also keen to increase the amount of children’s programming available, which is why we see the contestable pot to which I referred as a possible vehicle for additional opportunities so that children have more choice in the programming available to them.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and she is right that there is a wealth of experience on both sides of the House among Members who have worked in or with the BBC. On the question of more flexible arrangements for payment of the licence fee, in particular we wanted to allow the BBC to assist those on low incomes by not requiring it to take a year’s licence fee in the first six months. Her suggestion about having a reduced licence fee for those who listen only to the radio is not something we intend to pursue in this licence fee period, but, as I have said, the way in which technology is changing so rapidly will call into question the sustainability of the existing model over time. I have no doubt that there will be a substantial debate around these issues at the time of the next charter review.”
“My hon. Friend should not apologise for raising the matter again because it is extremely important. When the BBC first floated the idea of supporting local news provision by employing journalists, there was some confusion. Some people thought that the BBC was intending to employ them directly, which I think would have posed a threat to existing commercial local news providers. I am delighted that the agreement which has now been reached makes it plain that although the BBC will fund journalism, journalists will be employed by qualifying local news organisations. I imagine that the excellent examples of new organisations that my hon. Friend has mentioned from his constituency would be eligible to apply for that funding, should they choose to do so.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. We do think it is important that the BBC serves all the individual nations and regions of the United Kingdom. That is set out in the charter as one of the public purposes. However, my hon. Friend is right that the BBC is a UK national broadcaster, and it is there to unite the nation and to focus on all the many things we have in common and which bring us together. I hope that that will long remain the case.”
“Having visited Torbay as part of the tourism inquiry that the Select Committee conducted in the previous Parliament, I am delighted that although “Fawlty Towers” may have been based on a hotel at one time, Torbay hotels today bear no resemblance to Fawlty Towers. The series is an example of creative comedy, which the BBC excels at. It is important that the BBC should continue to make productions all across the United Kingdom. In Cornwall “Poldark” has been extremely successful, and I hope that the south-west will continue to benefit from BBC investment in production, which, as we said earlier, drives growth and creates a large number of jobs.”
“We have sought to reassure the BBC that there is no intention of reopening some of the fundamental decisions that have been taken for the next charter. It is a health check, as I said earlier—an opportunity to ensure that the reforms that we are putting in place are working as we intended and that the BBC is taking account of any changes that have happened over the period. As I have said, this is an area where the technology is changing very fast. We cannot bind another Government. However, we are trying to ensure that the charter is fit for purpose for the next 10 years. Having set out our proposals for the new charter, we certainly have no intention of revisiting those fundamental principles until the next one.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. In answer to his question, I am not going to hold my breath. However, to give them their due, they will have discovered only this morning what the Government intended, having previously relied on hysterical reports in the media. Now that they have seen that what we are setting out does not threaten the BBC but will actually strengthen it and ensure that it continues to thrive, I hope that they will welcome our proposals.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right; there is a huge gulf between expenditure on BBC local radio—I know from my county of Essex that in the local radio station the paint is sometimes peeling off the walls and it can barely afford a coffee maker—and some of the very substantial remuneration packages enjoyed by certain individuals. Although they may be extremely talented, that is one of the reasons the Government felt that the public have a right to know who they are.”
“That demonstrates that there is a demand for that content, so we are keen to encourage the BBC to make it available legally and ask people to pay for it.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to that. At the moment, as he will be aware, it is not legally possible to access BBC content through the iPlayer from overseas. We have two objectives in changing that. First, we believe very strongly that UK citizens who have already paid the licence fee should be able to enjoy content even if they happen to be on holiday on the continent of Europe. That is the portability requirement that we are looking to the BBC to put in place, as indeed we will ask other broadcasters to do. Secondly, there is a substantial amount of piracy going on, with people who have not paid the licence fee using virtual private networks or getting around the geo-block in order to access BBC content.”
“That is very much a matter for the BBC, but I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. The World Service is hugely admired and respected, but if it is to continue to reach people in places where there is very limited access to impartial and objective news, it is important that it uses every means of delivery. I would certainly encourage the BBC to do that, and I am sure my hon. Friend will talk to it further about that.”
“I am sorry I am not able to join my hon. Friend to watch Grimsby. However, the BBC has had a role in supporting local television, as he will be aware. As part of the last licence fee settlement, a fund was made available to support local television, but it was always clear that that was for a limited period. The fund was to allow local television to become established, and then local television would be expected to pay for itself, rather than relying on subsidy from licence fee payers. I am afraid I have to say to my hon. Friend that there are no plans to go beyond the existing support that is given to local television.”