Sir John Whittingdale
MP for Maldon · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s confirmation of our continuing support for Ukraine. He has set out the sustained threat from Russia facing not just Ukraine, but this country and the whole of Europe, yet for too many people, it is still business as usual.”
“That is perhaps even more relevant to the second prong of the Government’s proposals, which is about social media. I will come to that point, but before I finish talking about local media, I want to mention that another of the Government’s flagship policies is devolution.”
“The hon. Member is completely right that this issue must be addressed before we proceed. There is also the question of cost, raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke). There are people who probably do have access to broadband, if they choose to pay for it, but they cannot afford to do so.”
“I was the Minister responsible for the passage of the Media Act 2024, during the previous Parliament. It is a great delight to see some familiar faces with whom I have worked with in the past on the officials’ Bench.”
“Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) that young people are turning more and more to social media, but I do not think that this policy is the answer, because it looks to me like a very dangerous extension of Government interference in the freedom of the press and the right to free speech.”
“My right hon. Friend asks a perfectly valid question, and I want to acknowledge that there are concerns. We had a debate in Westminster Hall not that long ago, and a number of my colleagues—particularly from Scotland—turned up to express concern about the fact that the quality of reception via broadband in their constituencies is very poo…”
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“The importance of an independent regulator is preserved in this legislation. All the essential features of the UK GDPR or the rights that citizens of the European Union enjoy are present in the Bill, so I do not believe that there is a realistic prospect of the Commission reviewing negatively the adequacy determination.”
“Q In the interests of time, I will ask you one other question. Mr Edwards, you had experience as the New Zealand Privacy Commissioner for some time. New Zealand is one of the countries recognised as having data adequacy by the European Union. Can you give us a view, based on your experience of dealing with the European Union, of whether there is any concern about the Bill that might put at risk the UK’s data adequacy recognition from the EU? John Edwards: I do not believe there is anything in the Bill that would put at risk the adequacy determination with the European Union. The test the Commission applies is whether the law is essentially equivalent. New Zealand lacks many of the features of the GDPR, as do Israel and Canada, each of which has maintained adequacy status.”
“There is an opportunity not only to move more quickly in this space but to consider jurisdictions that might not be immediately obvious but none the less still offer appropriate safeguards for data.”
“The approach the UK is taking in the Bill is helpful because it looks at outcomes and broader issues such as the rule of law in different jurisdictions. What is said on paper is not necessarily what always happens in practice; we need to look at it far more holistically. The legislation gives the Government the opportunity to take that broader and more common-sense view with regard to adequacy and not just do a word-by-word comparison of legislative provisions without actually looking at how the legislation is implemented in that jurisdiction and what other rights can support the outcomes. We can recognise that there is a different legal process and application but ask whether it still achieves the same end. That is what is really important.”
“Q You have a lot of experience in respect of international data transfers. The European Union has a number of data adequacy agreements around the world, but the process to establish them has been slow. How do you think the Bill will make it easier for us to improve international data agreements? What prospects are there for the UK to establish such agreements, and with which countries? Vivienne Artz: The Bill provides for the opportunity for the Government to look at a range of issues and to move away from an equivalence approach to one in which we can consider more factors and features. The reality is that if you compare two pieces of legislation, you will always find differences because they come from different cultural backgrounds and different legal regimes. There will always be differences.”
“It is across all sectors and provides certainty for organisations to move forward to share information, sell their goods and services elsewhere and receive those goods and services, and for consumers to access those opportunities as well. Adequacy is certainly the ideal. Whether it is achievable in all jurisdictions I do not know, but I think it is achievable for many jurisdictions to provide confidence for both consumers and businesses on how they can operate.”
“Q Obviously it is already possible for us to undertake international data transfers to countries with which we do not have an adequacy agreement. Can you set out the advantages of having a general adequacy agreement in terms of data transfer and the benefits to the UK economy? Vivienne Artz : The current process is incredibly cumbersome for businesses and, if I am honest, it provides zero transparency for individuals as well. It tends to be mostly a paperwork exercise—forgive if that sounds provocative, but putting in place the model clauses is very often an expensive paperwork exercise. At the moment, it is difficult, time-consuming and costly, as the case may be. The thing with adequacy is that it is achieved at a Government-to-Government level.”
“That will be a part of the ICO’s role as well.”
“They are rather complicated to read, to be frank, but I look forward to the consolidated, clean version. The fact that technological development research is included in commercial research will enable the organisations that are developing AI to create the rules in a responsible way that creates the right outcomes for people, and does not create harms or risks. To me, that is what matters. That is more important, and that is what is going to be delivered here. We have the exemptions from notices for research and so on, so I feel we will have better conditions for the development of AI in a responsible and trusted way. However, we must not take our eyes off it. We really need to link GDPR with our AI strategy, and ensure that we incentivise organisations to be accountable and responsible when they are developing and deploying AI.”
“We should emphasise, in the way we have done in the Bill, the right to information that there is AI involved, the right to make a representation, the right to contest a decision, and the right to demand human review or human intervention. To me, that is really what empowers individuals and gives them trust that the decisions will be made in a better way. There is no point in prohibiting AI in the way GDPR sort of does. In GDPR, we are going to have something of a clash between the fact that the world is moving toward greater use of AI, and that in article 22 on automated decision making, there is a prohibition that makes it subject to consent or contract. That is really unrealistic. Again, we have chosen a better way. As a third small detail, I find the rules on research purposes to be smarter.”
“We have seen that in the European AI Act, where they are now allowing greater use of data for algorithmic AI training, precisely in order to ensure that algorithms work properly. We have Dubai’s data protection law and some others are starting to do that. I hope that we have good foundations to ensure further progression of the rules on AI. The rules on automated decision making are certainly better in this Bill than they are in GDPR. They are more realistic; they understand the fact that we going to be faced with AI and machine learning taking more and more decisions, of course with the possibility of human intervention. Again, to those who criticise the rules, I would say it is more important to have these exposed rights of individuals.”
“The UK can make an effort to try to make the changes more visible outside the United Kingdom, and possibly influence the way in which EU GDPR evolves in the years to come. Bojana Bellamy: I agree that we need a more flexible legal regime to enable the responsible use of AI and machine learning technologies. To be very frank with you, I was hoping the Bill would go a little further. I was hoping that there would be, for example, a recognition of the use of data in order to train algorithms to ensure that they are not discriminatory, not biased and function properly. I would have hoped that would be considered as an example of legitimate interests. That is certainly a way in which the Government can go further, because there are possibilities for the Secretary of State to augment those provisions.”
“You refer to artificial intelligence as one of those issues. GDPR in the EU and the UK, is about five years old. It is not a very old piece of legislation, but a number of technological developments have happened in the past five years. More importantly, we have learned how GDPR operates in practice. This exercise in the UK is in fact very useful, not just for the UK but for the EU and the world at large, because it is looking at how to reform elements of existing law that is already in operation in order to make it more effective. That does not mean that the law needs to be more onerous or more strict, but it can be more effective at the same time as being more pragmatic. This is an important optic in terms of how we look at legislative reform, and not only from the UK’s point of view.”
“Q I will be very quick, Mr Hollobone. Ms Bellamy, you have suggested that in some ways the regime that the Bill puts in place is superior to that of the existing GDPR and that it certainly does not risk our adequacy recognition in any way. Given the development of technology and the increasing use of things like AI, to what extent do you think the EU might follow the same sort of path that the Bill sets out to try to create a more flexible and a state-of-the-art regime? Eduardo Ustaran: That is a very important question to address because perhaps one of the ways in which we should be looking at this legislative reform is a way of seeing how the existing GDPR framework that exists both in the EU and the UK could, in fact, be made more effective, relevant and modern to deal with the issues we are facing right now.”
“Ultimately, we need to make sure that businesses are well consulted and that there is a strong cost-benefit analysis. We then need to move ahead with the key sectors that we want to push forward on. Similarly to on nuisance calls, we will send some suggested text to the Committee to add those bits in, but it is a really welcome step forward.”
“Q Mr Ross, I know that techUK has been supportive of a number of elements of the Bill, particularly around the opportunities created by the use of smart data. Will you set out your view of the opportunities, and how the Bill will help to attain them? Neil Ross: Smart data is potentially a very powerful tool for increasing consumer choice, lowering prices and giving people access to a much broader range of services. The smart data provisions that the Government have introduced, as well as the Smart Data Council that they are leading, are really welcome. However, we need to go one step further and start to give people and industries clarity around where the Government will look first, in terms of what kind of smart data provisions they might look at and what kind of sectors they might go into.”
“Q Which particular sectors offer the most opportunity? Neil Ross: I do not want to name specific sectors at this point. We are having a lot of engagement with our members about where we would like to see it first. The transport sector is one area where it has been used in the past and could have a large use in the future, but it is something that we are exploring. We are working directly with the Government through the Smart Data Council to try to identify the initial sectors that we could look at.”
“You cannot conduct a business without the right to find and retain customers, just as you cannot run a charity without the right to find donors and volunteers who provide the money and the labour for your good cause. The clarification is really important across a wide range of use cases in the economy, but particularly ours. It was recognised in GDPR in recital 47. What the legislation does is give illustrative examples that are drawn from recitals 47, 48 and 49. They are not new examples; they are just given main text credibility. It is an illustrative list. Really, any legal interest could be a legitimate interest for the purpose of data providing, subject to necessity and proportionality, which we discussed earlier with the Information Commissioner.”
“I am sure that you hear in your constituencies of many community groups that feel that they cannot go about organising local events because they must have consent to communicate. That has never been the intention behind the legislation; in fact, the European Court of Justice has always ruled that any legal interest could be a legitimate interest, including advertising and marketing. If you look at what we do, which is effectively finding and retaining customers, the GDPR legislation says in recital 4 that privacy is a fundamental right, not an absolute right, and must be balanced against other rights, such as the right to conduct a business.”
“Q Thank you. Mr Combemale, will you set out some of the obstacles for your organisation, and how you would like the Bill to reduce them? Chris Combemale: I think the single biggest one that has troubled our members since the implementation of GDPR is the issue around legitimate interest, which was raised by the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe. The main issue is that GDPR contains six bases of data processing, which in law are equal. For the data and marketing industry, the primary bases are legitimate interest and consent. For some reason it has become widely accepted through the implementation of GDPR that GDPR requires consent for marketing and for community activities.”
“This definition definitely helps clear up quite a few—not major, but minor—confusions that we have. They arise quite regularly, so I think it is a thoroughly helpful development to be able to point to something with this sort of clarity.”
“I think this will make it much clearer and easier for a hospital to say, “We understand this is an appropriate research use” and to be in a position to share that data according to all the protections that the GDPR provides around securing and de-identifying the data and so on. Jonathan Sellors: I think our access test, which we apply to all our 35,000 users, is to ensure they are bona fide researchers conducting health-related research in the public interest. We quite often get asked whether the research they are planning to conduct is legitimate research. For example, a lot of genetic research, rather than being based on a particular hypothesis, is hypothesis-generating—they look at the data first and then decide what they want to investigate.”
“Q Perhaps I could ask you both to elaborate on how the existing definition and the current lack of clarity have impeded you in carrying out the research you would like to do and how this will change as a result of the Bill. Tom Schumacher: Maybe I can give an example. One of the businesses we purchased is a business based in the UK called Digital Surgery. It uses inter-body videos to try to improve the surgery process and create technologies to aid surgeons in prevention and care. One of the challenges has been, to what extent is the use of surgery videos to create artificial intelligence and a better outcome for patient research? Ultimately, it was often the case that a particular site or hospital would agree, but it created a lot of churn, activity and work back and forth to explain exactly what was to be done.”
“NHS Transformation and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, particularly Owen Rowland and Elisabeth Stafford, have been very willing to hear points of view from industry and very proactive in reaching out for our feedback. I feel like the result reflects that good co-ordination.”
“Q Can you say a little about the extent to which you have been a contributor to the design of the new provisions in the Bill and whether you are happy with the outcome of that? Jonathan Sellors: The short answer would be yes. I was contacted by NHS England about the wording of some of the consent aspects, some of the research aspects and particularly some of the pseudonymisation aspects, because that is an important wall. Most research conducted is essentially on pseudonymised rather than identifiable data. The way it has been worded and clarified, because it makes an incremental improvement on what is already there in the GDPR, is very useful. I think it is a good job. Tom Schumacher: Yes, I would say the same.”
“Q Would you say a little about the international position? You referred to the UK’s position as a leader in this field. To what extent is that the case? What are the benefits, and what is the risk to the UK’s position if we do not make the changes proposed in the Bill? Harry Weber-Brown: In part 2 or part 3 of the Bill? The digital verification services or smart data?”
“Most of the consequences of extending beyond open banking into other smart data schemes impact UK businesses and consumers. I do not necessarily see that there is a competitiveness issue; it is bounded within the domestic economy.”
“Would that drive investment overseas, rather than into the UK? As Phillip said, open banking has really heralded a range of fintech providers being able to consume data and provide value-added services on top of that banking data. I think it rebalances the marketplace as well. Phillip Mind: To build on Harry’s remarks, I think that the real opportunity is for the UK to build a flourishing fintech industry. We have that already; open banking is actually one of our exports. Our way of doing open banking—the standards and the trust framework—has been a successful export, and it has been deployed in other jurisdictions. The opportunity around open data is to maintain that competitiveness for UK fintech when it is trading abroad.”
“There is a risk that if we do not extend that data right to other financial services, the consumer has a very limited view of what they can actually share. They can share their bank account details and possibly their pensions data as well, but what about their savings and investments, certainly in non-pension type wrappers? Give the consumer a full, holistic view of all their holdings and their debt as well, so that they can see their balance, as it were, and make better financial decisions. That is why we think it is so important to have part 3 of the Bill go through and for secondary legislation to follow behind it. There is a risk that if we do not do that, the consumer has a very fragmented view. Does that mean that overseas, where it is legislated for, the consumer would have a more holistic view of everything?”
“I will come on to digital verification. Let us focus on smart data, to begin with. Harry Weber-Brown: On that, Australia is certainly one of the leaders. The consumer has a data right under legislation that enables them to recall information from across a variety of sectors, not just financial services, and to have their information in a structured format shared with a data consumer—a third-party provider in open banking. Things are afoot. A lot of work is going on in the States, but less in Europe, interestingly. Legislation is coming through, but I think the big country to watch from our perspective is Australia and what has happened there. Theirs is a more far-reaching approach than, say, we have. That is for the smart data side.”
“We will transact digitally more and more; that is for sure. At the moment, we have a consultation, from the Treasury and the Bank of England, on a central bank digital currency. Arguably, that would benefit hugely from a reusable digital identity, but we need to be able to create the token in the right way. It could be enabling for people who have access to a smartphone but do not have a passport or driving licence; it could also build inclusion, in terms of identity. So we are very supportive of a reusable digital identity, but it is a big challenge, and the challenge is gaining trust and acceptance.”
“It is really a question of looking at the use cases—examples of how the consumer could utilise this—and making sure they receive utility and value from the setting up and the utilisation of the ID. The ID by itself is not necessarily compelling enough; the point is what you can use it for. Phillip Mind: Trust and acceptance are key issues, and the Bill lays the legislative foundations for that. We already assert our identity digitally when we open accounts, but we do so on a one-off basis. The challenge is to go from doing so on a one-off basis to creating a digital token that is safe and secure and that allows us to reuse that digital identity. For that to work, that token has to be widely accepted, and that is a really complex strategic challenge, but the Bill lays the foundations.”
“I think the Government support of this under digital verification services, part 2 of the Bill, is critical to make sure it happens. It is opt-in. We are not saying to people that they have to get an identity card, which obviously is not hugely popular; but if we can demonstrate the value of having a digital identity, with support and trust—with the trust framework and certification with Government—we will not necessarily need to run a full marketing campaign to make sure that consumers use this. Look at other territories—for example, Norway with Vipps, or Sweden’s BankID. I think about 98% of the population now use ID in a digital format; it is very commonplace.”
“Certainly having Government support and things like the trust framework and a certification regime to make sure that the consumer knows whom they are dealing with when they are passing over sensitive data will help to build the trust to ensure that consumers will utilise this. The second part to that is what types of services are built on top of the identity system. If I have the identity verified to an AML—anti-money laundering—standard for financial services, I could use it for a whole suite of other types of activity. That could be the purchase of age-restricted products, or sharing data with my independent financial adviser; it could reduce fraud in push payments, and so on. There is a whole suite of different types of services; you would not be using it just for onboarding.”
“Q Moving on to the digital identity provisions, clearly some people are already familiar with this, but there is still a degree of suspicion. To what extent do you think that the consumer needs persuasion about the security and the benefits of digital identity services? Do you see that as being addressed by the provisions in the Bill? Harry Weber-Brown: That is a very good question. I did quite a lot of consumer research in my previous capacity, and consumers are initially quite sceptical, asking “Why are you asking me for identity details and things?” You have to explain fully why you are doing that.”
“I would say that uncertified is a greater risk, certainly, but even with certified companies we must do more to make sure that they are pushed to meet the highest possible standards.”
“Q Perhaps I could ask you to expand on that now. To what extent would you say that some providers that are not certified are not meeting the standards necessary, or in some cases even promoting fraud? Keith Rosser: I have every reason to believe that organisations not certified will not be meeting anywhere near the standards that they should be meeting under a certified scheme. That appears really clear. They certainly will not be doing as much as they need to do to tackle fraud. My caveat here is that across the entire market, even the certified market, I think that there is a real need for us to do more to make sure that those companies are doing far more to tackle fraud, share data and work with Government.”
“Q So would you expect that as a result of the Bill, the bar to obtain certification will be higher? Keith Rosser: Yes. The requirement on DVSs to tackle fraud should be higher than it currently is.”
“Q Can you say a little bit more about the implications of personal data sharing between countries, the extent to which that might lead to a lowering of standards of protection and how we safeguard against that? Helen Hitching: The agency does not believe that those safeguards will be lowered. We will still not be able to share data internationally with countries that do not have the same standards that are met by the UK. It will provide greater clarity about which regimes should be used and at which point. The standards will not reduce.”
“Q You need to be satisfied that the third country maintains the same level of data protection standards that exists in the UK. To what extent has that been an impediment for data sharing? Helen Hitching: The agency has had to undertake a test to make sure that there is adequate or, essentially, equivalent protection. That standard is now changing to “not materially lower”, so it will be a lot easier to understand where those protection levels are the same as or not materially lower than the UK’s. It will be simplified a lot.”
“We do note, however, that the Biometrics Commissioner currently has a keen focus on developing technology in a legal manner and consults with the public. We would ask that there remains a focus on that oversight of biometrics, to assure the public that that work remains a priority once the regulation of biometrics transfers to the Information Commissioner’s Office and to make sure that that focus is retained.”
“Q On a separate issue, at the moment we have a range of bodies responsible for different aspects of surveillance, such as the Biometrics Commissioner, the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and the Surveillance Camera Commissioner. Those are being brought together into either the Information Commissioner or the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. To what extent do you think that will improve the overall oversight of surveillance? Aimee Reed: Policing thinks that that will significantly simplify things. It will not reduce the level of oversight and scrutiny that will be placed upon us, which is the right thing to do. In terms of the simplicity of that and the regimes that we are under, we are very supportive of that change. Helen Hitching: Likewise, we are supportive and welcome the simplification.”
“I agree with the big principle and I will leave you to debate that, but we would certainly urge that checks and balances need to be balanced, not one-sided. Mary Towers: Why does respect for fundamental rights have to be in direct conflict with growth and innovation? There is not necessarily any conflict there. Indeed, in a workplace where people are respected, have dignity at work and are working in a healthy way, that can only be beneficial for productivity and growth.”
“There is a wonderful phrase from the Swedish trade union movement that I have cited before: “Workers should not be scared of the new machines; they should be scared of the old ones.” There are no jobs, there is no prosperity and there is no future for the kind of society that our members want Britain to be that does not involve innovation and the use of new technology. The speed at which technology is now changing and the power of this technology compared with previous periods of economic change make us believe that there has to be a good, robust discussion about the balances of checks and balances in the process. We have seen in larger society—whether through A-level results, the Post Office or other things—that the detriment is significant on the individuals impacted if legislators get that balance wrong.”
“Q May I ask a relatively simple question? Obviously your concern is the protection of workers’ rights, and safeguards against discrimination and other potential adverse consequences of technology. We will debate the provisions of the Bill in those areas in the coming weeks—I suspect at some length—but would you nevertheless accept that the overall impact of the legislation, if we get this right, will be beneficial to your members in terms of the promotion of growth and potential future job opportunities? Andrew Pakes: “If we get this right” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there; I will leave it to Members to decide the balance. That should be the goal.”
“As my right hon. Friend will be aware, today is World Press Freedom Day. At a time when the need for professional and factual journalism has never been greater, will he reaffirm the Government’s commitment to defending media freedom worldwide? Will he redouble the efforts of the Government to obtain the release of Evan Gershkovich and Vladimir Kara-Murza in Russia, and of Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong?”
“6. What assessment he has made with Cabinet colleagues of the adequacy of the funding for repairing potholes announced in the spring Budget 2023.”
“I can tell my hon. Friend that in Maldon also the repair of potholes is one of the top issues on the doorstep. Would he therefore congratulate the Conservative-led administration at Essex County Council, which is putting an additional £9 million into the repair of potholes on top of the Government funding, and is he surprised to learn that the Liberal Democrats voted against it?”
“My right hon. Friend will be aware that Vladimir Kara-Murza is a former journalist and one of 22 journalists currently imprisoned in Russia, including Evan Gershkovich of The Wall Street Journal . Can he update the House on the efforts being made to obtain the release of Mr Gershkovich, and will he look at introducing targeted sanctions on all those involved in the persecution of journalists in Russia?”
“We were able to research what worked in terms of prevention and the various measures that could be taken to protect consumers from getting covid. Therefore, covid was the big demonstration of the fact that data exchange can bring real benefits to all consumers. We are just on the threshold—”