Sir John Whittingdale
MP for Maldon · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s confirmation of our continuing support for Ukraine. He has set out the sustained threat from Russia facing not just Ukraine, but this country and the whole of Europe, yet for too many people, it is still business as usual.”
“That is perhaps even more relevant to the second prong of the Government’s proposals, which is about social media. I will come to that point, but before I finish talking about local media, I want to mention that another of the Government’s flagship policies is devolution.”
“The hon. Member is completely right that this issue must be addressed before we proceed. There is also the question of cost, raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke). There are people who probably do have access to broadband, if they choose to pay for it, but they cannot afford to do so.”
“I was the Minister responsible for the passage of the Media Act 2024, during the previous Parliament. It is a great delight to see some familiar faces with whom I have worked with in the past on the officials’ Bench.”
“Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) that young people are turning more and more to social media, but I do not think that this policy is the answer, because it looks to me like a very dangerous extension of Government interference in the freedom of the press and the right to free speech.”
“My right hon. Friend asks a perfectly valid question, and I want to acknowledge that there are concerns. We had a debate in Westminster Hall not that long ago, and a number of my colleagues—particularly from Scotland—turned up to express concern about the fact that the quality of reception via broadband in their constituencies is very poo…”
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“That issue has always underlain all my misgivings—and, I think, those of my hon. Friends—about the original recommendations in Lord Justice Leveson’s report. I greatly welcome the fact that we have now achieved this agreement. I hope that it will deliver what we all want: a free press, protected from interference or pressure from politicians, but at the same time subject to clear rules enforced by a tough and independent regulator. If that is the outcome, the House will have done a good job.”
“The original draft was published some days ago, although it has been subject to amendment. I fear that the truncation of the process over the past 24 hours has prevented us from having as much time as was desirable, but if the outcome has been the achievement of all-party agreement and the opportunity to have this debate, I personally welcome that outcome. The safeguard in the charter—the requirement for a two-thirds majority in both Houses—is welcome because it will send the message that politicians will tamper with the royal charter at their peril. It is, of course, somewhat cosmetic, as any future Government with a majority in Parliament could overturn it and legislate if they chose to do so. It does, however, send the additional, powerful message that this is something in which politicians should not become involved.”
“My hon. Friend is correct that the code committee will remain with a majority from the industry, but does he accept that nobody, as far as I am aware, has ever complained about the code? It is generally recognised that the code was fine; the problem was that nobody paid attention to it.”
“I commend my right hon. Friend for the Government’s work to achieve a lasting legacy, but I ask her to focus on the financial legacy, particularly the money that was left within the budget and not spent. She will be aware of the big lottery refund campaign, now supported by more than 3,300 charities, which is pressing for that money to be returned. I know that it is the Government’s intention to do so, but can she indicate when that will occur?”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is considerable public impatience to have a new, strong independent regulator in place as soon as possible? Will she re-emphasise to the industry the need to reach agreement very swiftly, and will she confirm that her approach will both ensure that the new body conforms with all Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations and allow it to start its work without waiting for legislation?”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the great unanswered questions in the sorry saga of phone hacking is how although the police had evidence taken from Glenn Mulcaire in 2006 that suggested widespread lawbreaking was taking place, not only was nothing done about it, but it was denied that such evidence existed? That matter was intended to be examined by Lord Justice Leveson in part 2 of his inquiry. Will the Home Secretary confirm that an investigation will still take place to answer those questions?”
“May I welcome my hon. Friend’s recognition of the fact that the provision of services in rural communities such as Maldon district where populations are sparsely distributed often costs more, but does he accept the disappointment that the local government finance settlement appears to do little to reduce the rural penalty? In fact, it entrenches it for forthcoming years.”
“My right hon. Friend will be aware that my Committee—the Culture, Media and Sport Committee—has perhaps tested the boundaries of Select Committee powers more than most. The situation seems unsatisfactory in two areas. First, when we served warrants on Rupert and James Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks to appear before the Committee, it was not at all clear what the consequences would be had they failed to respond to that summons. Secondly, when we reported to this House that we believed we had been lied to by people who had given evidence to the Committee, it was, and remains, extremely unclear what the consequences of that are.”
“I share some of the concerns expressed by the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), and I urge those who have heard reports about what the Select Committee said to look at the report itself. The report did not say that there should be widespread liberalisation; it said that in specific areas local authorities that had concerns about the number of betting shops could consider whether they might be met by some flexibility in the numbers. I specifically agree with the right hon. Gentleman on the desperate need for more empirical evidence and research in this area. That must be addressed as a priority before we start taking decisions.”
“Does the Secretary of State agree that intellectual property rights and copyright underpin the success of our creative industries, which are so important to the economy? Is he concerned that many in those industries feel that the Government, on the back of the Hargreaves report, will dilute their intellectual property rights, not least in the area of exceptions to copyright law?”
“Another of my constituents, Mr Sharpe of Heybridge, was employed by Ford for 27 years and by Visteon for three months. Both those individuals have seen their pension reduced by 50%. They believed that the Pension Protection Fund would offer some protection, which I hope the Minister will say a little about in his reply. The PPF suggested that it would guarantee that such people would receive 90% of their pensions, but that has proved not to be the case, as a result of how the rules work and the cap that has been applied.”
“I have to chair a Select Committee at 10.15 am, so I will be brief. I am grateful to be called early. I will not repeat the facts that were set out so ably by my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green and the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies). The saga is fairly clear, but it is always important to bear in mind the real distress caused to individuals. I shall mention two. Mr McDonald of Danbury in my constituency was employed by Ford for 33 years and then spent four years working for Visteon. He believed the assurances given to him about the pay, conditions and pension entitlements, which would mirror those that he had enjoyed during his time at Ford, and he therefore agreed for his pension to be transferred.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I know that you would probably rather be in the body of the Chamber, since you, too, have many constituents affected by this very sad affair. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) on his success in securing the debate—a number of us entered the ballot, but he was the one lucky enough to be selected. We have an opportunity for the many Members who represent people who have suffered as a result of what has occurred to speak. As others have done, I would like to single out my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe), who has led the campaign so well and ensured that it remains in the public eye. I must first apologise to my hon. Friends and other Members.”
“Court cases are pending, so we must await their outcome, but I think that all of us feel that whether those cases prove that Ford has a continuing legal liability to its former employees is not, in a sense, the main thing. We all feel strongly that Ford has a strong moral obligation. It is a blue-chip company with a worldwide reputation. It is trusted, but how it has behaved to its former employees tarnishes that reputation. As has been said, that will reflect on how people view it, unless it does the right thing and gives justice to the people who gave it such devoted service for so long. The issue is not going away. We will continue to campaign until Ford meets its moral obligations.”
“We have met representatives of the Pensions Regulator, and I think it would be fair to say that it dropped heavy hints that if the powers that are available now had been available at the time, the transfer would have been looked at extremely closely, because, as has been mentioned, the sum transferred into the Visteon pension fund left it in deficit from the start. As my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green said, not only was the pension fund in deficit, but the arrangement between Ford and Visteon meant that Visteon was almost bound to fail. It never made a profit. The pension fund became steadily further in deficit. Visteon was unviable from the start and it was almost inevitable that sooner or later it would go into administration.”
“I agree with the hon. Gentleman; like him, I have attended debates in Westminster Hall where there have often been only one or two Members plus a Minister and the Whip on duty. The fact that so many Members turned out this morning demonstrates, first, the wide area from which Visteon employees have come, and, secondly, the strength of the feeling among many Members that Visteon pensioners have been treated badly and that justice must be done. I shall quickly turn to another aspect of the case that I hope the Minister will talk about. The PPF has not protected my constituents in the way that they hoped it would—of course, the Pensions Regulator was not there at the time.”
“That is one of the reasons why I agree strongly with the earlier remarks of the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). There are still big questions to be answered about how serial breaches of the law could take place in newsrooms and how the police appeared to do absolutely nothing about it, despite having the necessary evidence for a number of years. I very much hope that we will see the establishment of part 2 of the Leveson inquiry—whether it takes place under Lord Leveson or not is not the most important point—because we need answers to those questions once the criminal prosecutions have been exhausted.”
“Over the past five years, the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, which I chair, has examined the issue of the standards and ethics of the press three times. Each time, what we have uncovered has caused us serious concern about the way in which the press operates in this country; we have revealed information that we all found truly shocking. It is important that we remember the people who have suffered at the hands of the press, including the McCann family, the Dowler family and Christopher Jefferies. However, it is also important to note that all in those cases suffered as a result of breaches of the law. Breaches of the Data Protection Act, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, the contempt of court laws and the libel laws were all involved in the suffering of those people.”
“I am not sure that I would say their case is irrelevant, because it plainly provided evidence of the way in which the press seemed to feel that they were above the law, and that is a matter for a body overseeing ethics and standards. My hon. Friend is right, however, to say that that matter should have been dealt with by the police, and we still need answers as to why it was not.”
“It may surprise the hon. Gentleman to know that I agree with him. There is no question but that all of us in this Chamber are of one mind that the system of self-regulation administered by the Press Complaints Commission has failed. The commission produced a report saying that there was no evidence that anyone other than the one rogue reporter was involved, at the same time as my Select Committee produced a report saying that there was ample evidence and that we found it inconceivable that the rogue reporter defence was true. We are all agreed that we cannot continue with a system of self-regulation. The idea of the press marking its own homework, as Lord Leveson rightly put it, does not work and cannot continue—but that is not what is in prospect today.”
“The report went on to say —this was supported by Labour members of the Committee —that “should the industry fail to establish an independent regulator which commands public confidence, the Government should seriously consider establishing some form of statutory oversight”, but it went on: “At this stage we do not recommend statutory backing for the new regulator.””
“We went on to say in that unanimous report of the Select Committee two years ago: “We do not accept the argument that this would require statutory backing, if the industry is sincere about effective self-regulation it can establish the necessary regime independently.” Earlier this year, I chaired another Committee, a Joint Committee of both Houses on privacy and injunctions. Again, we looked at these matters in some detail. That body, too, reached a conclusion that “the current system of self-regulation is broken and needs fixing.” Again, that Committee recommended a new independent body with stronger powers.”
“It is our job in this House to persuade the victims that what is now in prospect is a different regime that would have the necessary teeth to prevent the kind of abuses they suffered. I believe that that is the case, and that we have a duty to get that message across to them. Let me take us back to the report our Select Committee produced in 2010. We clearly said that we needed a new body, which needed to have “the ability to impose a financial penalty” when the press had failed, and to have a responsibility “for upholding press standards generally”— things that the Press Complaints Commission was never equipped to do.”
“It is merely a question of whether we trust the body, and the press, to go along with it. If we do not, we support the idea of statutory regulation. However, we must be clear about the fact that starting to legislate over the press would be a huge step for us to take.”
“However, Lord Hunt went on to say: “I do not believe this in any way crosses a ‘red line’ for those of us who have serious qualms about a statutory regulator: the Press Council in the Republic of Ireland may be recognised in a statute, but it is not created by it.” That, essentially, is the difference in this matter. It is a question of whether we trust the press to establish a truly independent body with real powers that will be able to punish breaches of the code, and that the press will abide by it, or whether we believe that the press will not go along with that, and that therefore there must be statutory support. It is not a question of powers; there is no difference between what is on the table in terms of the powers available to the body and what Leveson recommends.”
“I would draw the House’s attention to the submission made to the Leveson inquiry by Lord Hunt, in which he pointed out that the Irish Defamation Act 2009 contains a provision that recognises the activity of the Irish Press Council and allows the courts to take account of “the extent to which the person adhered to the code of standards of the Press Council and abided by the determinations of the Press Ombudsman and determinations of the Press Council.” That seems to me entirely sensible. It is a way of giving the press incentives to join such a body.”
“I think I have the figures. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: the Committee divided at the end—10 in favour, and 7 against. I would point out, however, that among the seven were Lord Black of Brentwood and my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who I think my hon. Friend will find are not necessarily totally in agreement with his particular viewpoint. The Hunt-Black proposals are no longer on the table. I agree with Lord Leveson that they were not sufficiently independent. It is clear that the new body has to be completely independent of the press, and it has to have a board that does not have serving editors on it. There are elements where a new body could have some kind of statutory support. Some hon. Members may have seen the comments of Shami Chakrabarti, who talked about how a body could have statutory recognition.”
“I agree. I think that there are serious practical problems with some of Lord Leveson’s recommendations, and the hon. Lady has highlighted one of them. The whole area of data protection raises some very big questions. There is also the question of whether Ofcom should have any involvement in press regulation. I think that Ofcom itself would have severe misgivings about that, because it is not what it was set up to do. It was set up to do an entirely different job. It is a Government-appointed regulatory body, and even if it acts as a backstop regulator, that will be giving a Government-appointed body, the chairman of which is appointed by the Secretary of State, a role in the regulation of the press.”
“Of course it is important for us to establish public confidence. What we need to do is persuade the public that things will never be the same again: that the new regime on offer is completely different, that it is independent, and that it has real powers. However, as I think Shami Chakrabarti said at the weekend, the question of whether it requires statutory underpinning is about processes, not outcomes. We need to focus on the outcomes of this.”
“I think I have already dealt with that, but the right hon. Gentleman is right. Lord Hunt himself suggested that there should be some statutory recognition of the body in the context of, for instance, defamation cases, so that it can be taken into account when damages are awarded. However, that is not the same as setting up a body by statute, or statutory underpinning. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to laugh, but there is a massive difference between the law recognising the existence of a body and the law somehow having power over that body.”
“I have very little time left. I could probably spend another hour discussing the whole issue of privacy law, but I shall merely tell my hon. and learned Friend that I hear what he says. I am absolutely at one with those in the Chamber who believe that we need to establish—”
“Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that Lord Hunt asked for a similar provision to that in the Irish Defamation Act, and that that is not a problem? None of us objects to that; it is the statutory underpinning, which is a completely different prospect, that people find objectionable.”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is now almost universal agreement that we must have a strong new regulator, that it must be seen to be independent and that it must be established as quickly as possible? I strongly welcome his statement, however, that the question of whether the regulator should have statutory underpinning is something that Parliament needs to consider carefully, perhaps through a regular assessment of its effectiveness by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, and that we should proceed to legislate only if it becomes absolutely clear that it will not function properly without it.”
“Does my right hon. Friend agree that we need to study Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations very carefully, but that any decision affecting the freedom of the press is so important that it should be made only by Parliament? Does she accept that there is now almost total agreement that we need a new, independent regulator with tough powers, but that the decision on whether there should be any legislative back-up involving statute is of such huge importance that we need to be absolutely certain that there is no alternative before proceeding down that route?”
“The auction of the 800 MHz band is due to start in February and it is intended that the installation will take place shortly after, perhaps in March or April, so we could start rolling out 4G in June. Yet, I am prepared to bet that we would be hard-pressed to find anyone on the street who was aware that there was a risk of their television reception suffering interference again, and that they might have to take further measures to those they have already taken to deal with the analogue switch-off.”
“The situation has been made more difficult by the bringing forward of the timetable for 4G’s introduction. I do not criticise that; it is important that we get 4G roll-out as soon as possible, but there is no question but that the accelerated timetable will make the process more difficult. Digital UK did a good job in overseeing the transition for analogue switch-off, but it did so over a number of years. It mounted a significant publicity campaign in advance, region by region, so that when it came to switch-off almost everyone knew what was happening, and was hopefully prepared. Instead of a period of years, however, this process will be done in a period of weeks.”
“The Minister conceded that point when he gave evidence to the Select Committee. One way in which we could perhaps get round that is to have a trial in advance, similar to that which took place at Whitehaven prior to the beginning of digital switchover. There may well be a case for a trial in order to get precise figures for exactly which households will suffer interference and to what extent that interference is a serious problem. I hope that MitCo will consider that. I understand it is still a possibility once the advice is received. Another issue is whether the filters will work properly, and it would help if they too could be tested in a trial. The prototype filters are now available—as I have said, I have seen one—but mass production has not yet started on the scale that will be required.”
“That could help all households that are likely to suffer from interference, but it is not clear to me yet what plans the Government have put in place to ensure that the mobile companies carry out the base station mitigation at the stations that will result in interference. I think it is relatively cheap to install a filter at the base station—I was given a figure of £400—and I hope that the mobile companies do that. Will that be made a condition of the auction, so that the mobile companies carry out the base station mitigation to try to minimise the interference that could result? I am also slightly concerned that while we are relying on projections of the number of households that may be affected, to some extent we cannot know whether such forecasts are right.”
“One of my concerns, however, is that the Government are making the filters available only for primary DTT households, and yet there will be a large number of additional households that have second sets, and they will not receive filters. I accept that the Government have to draw a line somewhere, but given that the mobile companies will be bidding a substantial amount of money for the spectrum, I think there is a case for households that still use DTT, but not as their primary means of receiving television, to receive some help. I also understand that additional measures can be taken to try to mitigate the effect of the interference at the base station.”
“Of those, 900,000 are primary DTT households that will require filters for them to continue to receive television without interference. I welcome moves by the Government to make filters available to those households. I also welcome the additional help of a £50 voucher, should they have a loft or masthead amplifier, so that the filter can be professionally installed. I recently met with Ofcom and saw one of the filters that it is intended should be fitted. I accept that as long as someone does not have an amplifier, it is pretty simple to unplug the aerial cable, insert the filter and plug it back in again. However, there will be households for which it is not so simple and the Government are right to make additional help available.”
“Happily, the exercise has now been completed and it has gone remarkably smoothly. I pay tribute to Digital UK for its success in overseeing the switchover process with very little problem or complaint. I like to think that the report of my Committee, in which we flagged up some of the problems in advance, allowed us to take account of those and put in place measures so that they did not cause the complaints or disruption that we were concerned about. Similarly, I want to flag up one or two concerns that I have about the effect of mobile services being made available on 800 MHz, and what we might do to try to avoid difficulties. It is estimated that the reception of digital terrestrial television in 2.3 million homes may be affected once mobile 4G services become available.”
“The Culture, Media and Sport Committee, which I am proud to chair, also shared the view that we needed to get on with the allocation of spectrum for 4G, because 4G carries real benefit to the economy, and we did not wish to get left behind. I am pleased that Ofcom is now pressing ahead with the auction. However, the use of 800 MHz for mobile telephony will have consequences. It will result in interference with the provision of services currently using that band, particularly digital terrestrial television. We have, of course, just been through a major exercise: the analogue switch-off and digital switchover. When I first became Chairman of the Committee, the first inquiry we had was into analogue switch-off. We felt that this was a huge undertaking, with risks that we highlighted.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate an issue that has so far received little attention, but one that will affect large numbers of people in this country quite soon. It is appropriate that we should be debating it today. This is the day on which 4G services have become widely available in a number of cities as a result of Everything Everywhere making use of the 1,800 MHz spectrum. Understandably, the competitors to Everything Everywhere have been concerned that it should be given a lead and so have been pressing to be able to go ahead with the provision of their own 4G services, and to do that they require access to the 800 MHz band.”
“As 2018 is likely to be too soon to even contemplate that, I seek the Minister’s assurance that if DTT finds itself unable to use the 700 MHz spectrum and has to move as a result of further allocation of spectrum to mobile telephony, it would be the Government’s intention to continue to have DTT services, certainly for some considerable time to come.”
“We have internet protocol television, or IPTV, coming down the wire, and there might come a time when the different ways of receiving television—broadband and satellite—mean that there is no longer a need for Freeview DTT. I can anticipate that day being reached, but as IPTV services are still in their infancy I think it would take a long time. A certain amount of concern was raised within the industry by the recommendation of the Lords Committee on Communications. I do not want to criticise my colleagues in the other place, but the Committee’s report on broadband states: “We recommend that the Government, Ofcom and the industry begin to consider the desirability of the transfer of terrestrial broadcast content from spectrum to the internet and the consequent switching off of broadcast transmission over spectrum”.”
“That date of 2018 is still a little way off, and it is after whatever decisions are taken at the next world radiocommunication conference, but I ask the Minister for one or two assurances now. First, in the event that that were to happen, it would seem only right that there should be an allocation of spectrum in the 600 MHz band for DTT, and that if DTT were forced out of its current spectrum it should not have to participate in an auction process. It is worth beginning to consider, some way in advance, how many households might be affected and how many might need new set-top boxes. My real concern, however, which I hope the Minister feels able to address, is that there has been a suggestion that in due course we might no longer need DTT.”
“The sector has made a perfectly reasonable request for MitCo’s remit to be extended at least to consider the potential interference, and that the sector be represented on its supervisory board, and I hope that the Minister will consider that. Finally, I turn to the longer term. The Minister will be aware that there is a debate about the likely ever-increasing demand for mobile services and about mobile telephony’s appetite for bandwidth, as a result of which it is being suggested that mobile telephony might in due course creep into the 700 MHz band, possibly from 2018. That would cause further problems for DTT, which might have to move out of 700 MHz and into the 600 MHz band.”
“It has already had to vacate channel 69 and deal with problems resulting from the analogue switch-off and the making available of the spectrum there, and it is now concerned that the problems might continue. It has been suggested to me that industry experts have said that anything above channel 56 might no longer be suitable for PMSE use, which leaves the sector with just two options. The first is that it suffers interference in the five channels it currently has that might be affected, but that is not really an option. If there is a live performance by Bon Jovi—I think I cited them on a previous occasion—sudden interference in the communications is simply not acceptable. The alternative is that the PMSE sector has to vacate those five channels and find new ones further down.”
“We do not know which operator will obtain which licence, but if the Government are successful in their hope to achieve competition in 4G provision, it seems likely that at least the majority of the major operators will obtain licences, so there is certainly a case for beginning to prepare the ground now for telling people what will happen. I want to raise two other concerns. The first is about our old friend the PMSE sector, with which the Minister will be very familiar. The programme making and special events sector includes those who need microphones for television productions and live music performances. This important sector is concerned that it, too, might be affected by interference.”
“The degree of interference will vary, but some households at the extreme end will no longer be able to get DTT under any circumstances. As I was saying, the Government need to start alerting people to the problem very soon. I have been told that it is difficult to mount a publicity campaign until we know who has obtained the licences and therefore which base stations will be affected, but it would be a good idea to start informing people of the problem. We must have a fairly good idea of the base stations that are likely to be involved.”