Sir John Whittingdale
MP for Maldon · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s confirmation of our continuing support for Ukraine. He has set out the sustained threat from Russia facing not just Ukraine, but this country and the whole of Europe, yet for too many people, it is still business as usual.”
“That is perhaps even more relevant to the second prong of the Government’s proposals, which is about social media. I will come to that point, but before I finish talking about local media, I want to mention that another of the Government’s flagship policies is devolution.”
“The hon. Member is completely right that this issue must be addressed before we proceed. There is also the question of cost, raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke). There are people who probably do have access to broadband, if they choose to pay for it, but they cannot afford to do so.”
“I was the Minister responsible for the passage of the Media Act 2024, during the previous Parliament. It is a great delight to see some familiar faces with whom I have worked with in the past on the officials’ Bench.”
“Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) that young people are turning more and more to social media, but I do not think that this policy is the answer, because it looks to me like a very dangerous extension of Government interference in the freedom of the press and the right to free speech.”
“My right hon. Friend asks a perfectly valid question, and I want to acknowledge that there are concerns. We had a debate in Westminster Hall not that long ago, and a number of my colleagues—particularly from Scotland—turned up to express concern about the fact that the quality of reception via broadband in their constituencies is very poo…”
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“As the hon. Gentleman is probably aware, there are ongoing discussions between creative rights owners and the platforms and others through the Intellectual Property Office, but it has made clear that, unless permitted under licence or on exception, making copies under text and data mining will constitute copyright infringement.”
“There is a great deal of work going on around AI to develop a framework of regulation, as was originally set out in the White Paper. The hon. Gentleman’s point about algorithmic bias is a serious one; it is being studied by the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation, and obviously we will look very carefully at that.”
“The hon. Lady is new to her role and so may have missed the creative sector vision, which was published about six months ago and set out an investment totalling some £50 billion going into the creative industries over the next five years. A great deal of work is taking place on the impact of AI on creative industries, and we are hoping to say more about that before the end of the year.”
“With the Secretary of State, I was able to spend Monday in Manchester for the creative industries conference, where we met representatives from right across the sectors, including those from the AI sector. AI is already benefiting the creative industries to a considerable amount and represents real opportunities for them.”
“I was pleased to visit south Devon in August and to meet members of the Great South West tourism partnership. I am also pleased that Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly have recently been accredited as a local visitor economy partnership and that Devon is working with VisitEngland towards potential accreditation.”
“I discussed a range of issues affecting tourism in Devon with the Great South West tourism partnership. We covered a lot of ground, and I know that those issues are of great importance to the tourism sector. Of course, we are in regular dialogue with the Treasury, but it is a matter for the Chancellor, as my hon. Friend says.”
“In June 2022, we published the new national plan for music education, which aims to level up music opportunities for all children and young people regardless of circumstance, needs or geography. Since publication, we have worked with the Department for Education to progress delivery of the music hub investment programme and the music progression fund.”
“I am sorry that I was unable to hear the visiting group from the hon. Lady’s constituency, but I am delighted that it came. As I have said, we are investing £25 million in the provision of musical instruments through music hubs. I can tell her that the proportion of pupils studying for a music qualification at key stage 4 over the past years has remained stable at about 7% to 8%.”
“I can tell the hon. Lady that the Government remain committed to investment through the music hub investment programme, and I am happy to give her a specific answer to the question she raises about the allocation of that money in writing. The Government are working very closely with the DFE on this, and we also look forward to producing a cultural education plan in early 2024.”
“I and my officials regularly meet representatives of the creative industries in Scotland, and we were pleased to be joined by representatives from Creative Scotland, the Scottish Government and the Creative Industries Council earlier this week. We will continue to work closely with colleagues in Scotland to ensure that the UK’s creative industries remain world leading following the UK’s exit from the European Union.”
“We are continuing to work to make it easier for musicians from this country to tour in Europe, and we have managed to establish arrangements with 24 out of 27 member states that now allow visa and work permit-free routes for UK performers for short-term touring. We continue to engage in discussions with countries individually to make further improvements.”
“The Chancellor has been very generous to the creative industries and I hope that he will continue to be so. However, I would point out to the hon. Lady that Creative Scotland benefits from a grant in aid budget of around £63 million, and I would have thought that she might welcome the fact that in the last March Budget the UK Government announced £8.6 million in support for two of Edinburgh’s world-leading festivals.”
“Rapid development of AI poses major questions for many industries, including our vital press sector. We are hosting roundtables with broadcasters and news publishers to discuss the risks and opportunities of AI to journalism, and we intend to continue the conversation with the sector over the coming months.”
“The online advertising taskforce has come forward with a number of measures, and we are looking both to legislate in this area in due course and to introduce non-statutory measures. We are committed to protecting vulnerable people from inappropriate advertising, and to tackling fraudulent advertising.”
“I met representatives of Meta earlier in the week, and I did make clear to them the Government’s disappointment at the withdrawal of the community news project. We are looking to ensure that newspapers are properly compensated by the tech giants, and measures to ensure that are contained in the Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill.”
“We have regular meetings with Ofcom and telecommunications providers to discuss the migration from analogue to digital, and in due course the retirement of the copper network. Ofcom has set out high-level conditions for the gradual deregulation of BT Group’s copper-based network in the future, but it is too early to determine the process that will trigger the complete deregulation. Ofcom will consider that in the next regulatory review period.”
“The decision to migrate from the public switched telephone network to voice over internet is one for the industry, but nevertheless we are following this very carefully. Ofcom has regular discussions, and I, too, have been meeting Ofcom. The right hon. Gentleman is right that we need to make it certain that vulnerable consumers are protected. Ofcom will ensure that providers give them back-up in the event of a power outage, and it will be their duty to ensure that that is sufficient.”
“I have a great deal of sympathy with my right hon. Friend’s question, as I know that this matter is causing concern for a number of Members. We are very keen that unnecessary infrastructure should not be built where existing ducts can be used. We have set out regulations on that, and Ofcom oversees it. Local authorities will be able to make reports to Ofcom if existing ducts are not being sufficiently used and it is felt that the infrastructure is not necessary.”
“We have already announced 12 Project Gigabit contracts to extend gigabit-capable networks in rural and hard-to-reach areas of the UK. More contracts are set to be announced shortly, from the extensive pipeline of procurements. Through the shared rural network programme, we are also jointly investing over £1 billion with the industry to encourage 4G mobile coverage to 95% of the UK landmass by the end of 2025.”
“My hon. Friend has been a fantastic champion in campaigning for improved connectivity for his constituents. In the north-east as a whole, we have seen faster growth of gigabit broadband coverage than in any other region of the UK. None the less, I am encouraged to hear of his discussions with BDUK. I hope that a contract will be signed shortly to improve coverage still further, including in the towns that he mentions. I am happy to keep him updated as soon as we are in a position to make further announcements.”
“I do not agree with that. The voucher scheme has delivered gigabit broadband to thousands of constituents up and down the country. At the same time, we are rolling out the procurement contract. I know that there are particular challenges in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, but we have already extended gigabit coverage to 78% of the United Kingdom. I am happy to ask BDUK to discuss with him any specific challenges in his constituency.”
“The Secretary of State will be consolidating and accelerating Britain’s global advantage in these priority areas, ensuring that the special relationship grows even stronger when it comes to science and technology, and that the collaboration between our two countries—”
“This week, the Secretary of State is building on the momentum from the artificial intelligence summit by meeting with key partners and policymakers in the United States, championing Britain’s leading global role in AI, space, tech, online safety, quantum and other areas. It is only two weeks ago that Britain convened 28 countries and the European Union at Bletchley Park to sign the world’s first agreement on tackling the risks of frontier AI. This followed the historic passage of the Online Safety Act 2023, which has been viewed across the world as the gold standard of online child safety legislation.”
“As I suggested earlier, the retirement of the PSTN land network is a decision for the industry, but the Government have a key role to play in ensuring vulnerable consumers are protected through the transition. I have regular meetings with communications providers and Ofcom to discuss progress on that. With regard to Essex, I share my right hon. Friend’s concern—my constituency is the neighbouring constituency to hers—about the need to ensure that vulnerable constituents are protected. I can assure her that I will continue—”
“The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to flag up the value that successful enterprise zones can bring to local communities. I want to see DSIT sectors benefiting as well, and I am happy to co-ordinate further with colleagues in other Departments to explore those opportunities.”
“I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that the counter-disinformation unit is there to flag up to platforms potentially misleading information, but it has no power to have it removed. I can give him an assurance that it does not identify any Members of this House or professional journalists.”
“It will give fans a veto over changes to the badge and home shirt colours, in addition to the strong existing protections for club names. Most clubs have a strong relationship with their fans and consciously engage them in decisions about club heritage, but not all do. For instance, fans of Cardiff City and Hull City will understand the importance of these measures after they recently had to battle to bring back or to keep their club’s colours and badge. Likewise, the new system will create strengthened owners and directors tests to make sure a club’s custodians—their owners and directors—are suitable.”
“The Bill will establish an independent football regulator, which will put fans back at the heart of football and help to deliver a sustainable future for all clubs. It will strengthen the governance and financial resilience of football clubs to protect the national game and clubs linked with communities and fans. Crucially, the regulator will address systemic financial issues in football, while providing the certainty and sustainability required to drive future investment and growth. This will ensure that English football remains the global success story and tackles the harms that exist. The Bill will give fans more of a voice in the running of their clubs by setting a minimum standard of fan engagement. Clubs will need to meet this, and will be required to comply with the FA on its new rules for club heritage.”
“Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) for leading the fan-led review of football governance. This has been of immense value in developing the White Paper and during the period of the consultation we held earlier this year. I would like to thank the Football Supporters Association for its support; its contribution has been extremely valuable. Too many clubs have been brought to the brink with unsuitable owners taking over, stripping them of their assets and refusing to fund them any more. We are committed to breaking this cycle of inappropriate ownership, financial instability and poor governance practices. That is why the inclusion of the Bill in yesterday’s King’s Speech is so important.”
“All such incidents threaten the long-term health and sustainability of all clubs, not just Reading. We have heard about how English football clubs make significant contributions, and also about what happens when the community is let down by irresponsible owners in charge of football clubs. No employee, be they a player or, indeed, someone in the club shop, should fear not being paid. It is the local communities and fans that are the lifeblood of these clubs, and they bear the brunt and fallout of bad ownership decisions. They see where the structures are not working for the good of the game, and they can articulate most clearly how these are set right. My colleagues in the ministerial team have prioritised engaging with fans and listening to their concerns, and I would like to pay tribute to my hon.”
“It is somewhat depressing that, 12 years later, we are still debating many of the same issues. However, I hope that the inclusion of the football governance Bill in the King’s Speech yesterday will reassure the hon. Member for Reading East and others that this Government are intent on delivering and safeguarding the future of football clubs for the benefit of communities and fans. The hon. Gentleman has talked about his own local club, steeped in the fabric of its community. It has been relegated, suffered sporting sanctions and faced financial penalties because of reckless decisions made by owners and terrible mismanagement. We have also heard about poor and non-existent governance practices, with fans being prevented from influencing key decisions that affect them and having to petition local councils, in some cases to protect stadiums.”
“Members feel about the long-term sustainability and governance of English football, and their commitment to their local clubs. I thank the hon. Members for City of Chester (Samantha Dixon), for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Anna Firth) for their contributions to this debate. In particular, as a Member of Parliament for Essex, I am very much aware of the difficulties faced by Southend United, and my hon. Friend has been a fantastic champion for the fans of that club. The presence of those hon. Members in this debate demonstrates how important football clubs are to the lives of people in this country. In 2011, when I chaired the Culture, Media and Sport Committee—quite a considerable time ago now—we conducted an inquiry into football governance.”
“I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Reading East (Matt Rodda) on securing this debate. As he mentioned at the start of his remarks, it was the intention of the Minister for Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), to respond to the debate, but he has had to return to his constituency urgently for reasons that I think colleagues will fully understand. In his remarks, the hon. Gentleman highlighted the deep concern that he and many of the fans he represents have expressed regarding football ownership. I pay tribute to his commitment, and to theirs; having listened to his description, we understand how difficult it must have been for those fans over the past few years. We are very much aware of the passion and interest that many hon.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do understand the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts). Certainly, we would not wish to have a system in which the directors decided who they do and do not wish to talk to. It will be part of the licensing requirements that fans are involved. I am sure we will wish to explore that further during the passage of the Bill, but it is certainly the intention that that is one of the conditions for licensing. We have seen other examples of fans fighting back against their owners to save their clubs at Blackpool, Charlton Athletic and, as we have heard tonight, Reading. That should not have had to happen.”
“I thank him for bringing the matter before the House. I think we all look forward to the introduction of the Bill and the establishment of a regulator in due course. I certainly share his view that that needs to happen quickly, and before a general election. Question put and agreed to.”
“Gentleman described, and I understand his wish that measures should be brought in as soon as possible. I am afraid that I cannot commit to a pilot at this stage, but I can tell him that the experience of Reading FC and other clubs will continue to inform policy development and decisions about how the regulator is set up. Likewise, any sale that takes place in advance of the regulator is a matter for the football authorities’ existing rules and checks on owners and directors, but I urge hon. Members who are concerned on that point to encourage clubs and their leaderships to engage with the team in the Department as we take the policy forward. If the hon. Gentleman has particular concerns, I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey, will be happy to talk to him further.”
“On financial distribution, it remains our firm belief that the best solution is a football-led solution, but if one is not found, the regulator will have a backstop power to intervene and force a solution. I hope a resolution on that point will be found soon, and I urge both sides to reach a deal as soon as possible. It is in the game’s interests to avoid the risk of further financial uncertainty. In short, through this legislation we are protecting the fundamentals of the game we love while ensuring a more sustainable future with fans at its heart for generations to come. Meanwhile, alongside the introduction of legislation, the Government will take the time to explore the extent to which preparatory work can be done ahead of the regulator being established in law. I fully recognise the plight of Reading football club, as the hon.”
“Gentleman has graphically described, we have seen fans at Reading petition the council to list the ground as an asset of community value, to make sure that it cannot be sold quickly and without warning by the current owner. The stadium that the club plays in not only has significant value to fans, but can be a club’s most valuable asset. In addition, the regulator will prevent clubs from joining breakaway leagues. As Members will be aware, in 2021 fans were faced with the prospect of a breakaway European super league that was fundamentally uncompetitive and threatened to undermine the footballing pyramid. Fans will no longer face the prospect of seeing their club sign up to such ill-thought-out proposals. Ultimately, we want a thriving footballing pyramid and more money must flow through the game to make that happen.”
“I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern on that point, particularly given the record of the owner of his particular club. The Bill will insert as one of the duties of the new football regulator the requirement to conduct an owners and directors test, to make sure that clubs and fans are protected from irresponsible owners. I am sure that we will want to explore that matter in greater detail when the Bill comes to be debated in this House. The Bill will also require clubs to seek the regulator’s approval for any sale or relocation of the stadium and to demonstrate how they have consulted their fans as part of that. To give another example, at Derby County we saw the issues caused by the decision to sell the club stadium to a separate company owned by the club’s owner. More recently, as the hon.”
“Gentleman will be aware, as is written into the charter, that the Government said there would be a review of the governance arrangements—called the mid-term review—that needs to be completed by 2024. We will publish the outcome of that very soon actually. While I cannot reveal that at this stage, I can say that one of the areas that has been raised with the Government a number of times, and which the hon. Gentleman raised again today, is the way in which the BBC has dealt with complaints and the fact that so few have been upheld. The Government’s view is that that process needs to be strengthened. We will have more to say about how we believe it can be strengthened—the BBC has agreed that it should be strengthened—when we publish the mid-term review.”
“I raised the issue when I was chairing the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, and I have raised it since, and I hope the BBC will continue to look at ways in which it can increase transparency, which is the right way forward. The charter increased the level of independent oversight of the BBC by bringing in Ofcom as an independent regulator. We have a system whereby complaints about the BBC go first to the BBC, but can then be escalated to Ofcom. The Government does not get involved in that process. I think that is right, and for that reason, I cannot directly respond to some of the hon. Gentleman’s specific complaints. Those are for the BBC to examine. I agree that he has raised some important matters that I hope the BBC will look at, and indeed that Ofcom could investigate as well. The hon.”
“It had the consequence of making the BBC address that issue as well, and that was a very good demonstration of why transparency is so important. The hon. Gentleman went on to talk about the way in which the BBC has to publish the names of its employees directly earning money over a certain threshold, but a number of people obtain payment from the Government through the intermediary of a private production company—a number of individuals have set that up. I agree with him that it is not entirely satisfactory that one person who earns a large amount of money from the BBC has their name published, and another does not, just because the way in which the BBC pays them is done through a slightly different route. I hope that is something we will continue to look at.”
“Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) became Prime Minister, she insisted on bringing it back down to £150,000. It has risen in line with inflation, so I think the figure for the publication of salaries is now £178,000. The publication had an unforeseen consequence, as the hon. Member for East Londonderry mentioned. When I insisted on the publication of information about individuals earning high salaries, for the reasons that he gave, I did so on the basis that I thought it right that the licence fee payer should know where large amounts of the money were going. We did not realise that it would also expose the shocking gender pay gap between the salaries of men and women doing essentially the same jobs at the BBC.”
“That obviously needs to be done in a transparent and accountable fashion, which is one of the requirements of the charter, as the hon. Member for East Londonderry quoted. The third area, which we also addressed in the last charter renewal—I, too, have campaigned on this issue and the hon. Gentleman also raised it—is transparency over the payment of public money in the form of salaries to high-earning BBC employees. Initially, the BBC resisted very strongly, believing that it would make it harder for them to recruit and that it would somehow give an unfair advantage to their competitors, but eventually, the BBC agreed to this at a higher threshold than was ultimately introduced. Actually, the Prime Minister who appointed me to oversee the task, David Cameron, agreed to that higher threshold, but when my right hon.”
“It was subject to a quota for indie productions of 25%, and then there was something known in the trade as the window of creative competition, or WoCC, which was the remaining 25% that could be opened up to either BBC in-house production or the independent sector. We reached the agreement that the BBC should move towards opening up the entirety of its schedule to competition from BBC production and independent production. The BBC is on track to achieve 100%, I think by 2027, which has provided a huge boost to the independent production sector. It was very strongly welcomed at the time by the Producers Alliance for Cinema and Television, the body representing independent producers. Opening this up does mean that the BBC’s public money, through the licence fee, is being used to commission programmes from private companies.”
“The first is the National Audit Office’s access to the BBC. The extent to which the NAO was able to examine the BBC’s financial accounts was limited for quite a long time. As he knows, the BBC argued strongly that the NAO should not be given full access, with a succession of what I regarded as somewhat spurious excuses, such as that it would somehow interfere with the BBC’s independence from the Government. Well, the BBC is independent of the Government, but that does not mean that the BBC should not be held to account for the fact that it spends a very large amount of public money in the form of the licence fee. I am glad that, in the charter, we ensured that the NAO had full access to the BBC accounts. The second matter is on the commissioning of programming. Previously, the BBC produced 50% of its content in-house.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) on securing the debate and on raising what are important matters. I know that he has campaigned on this issue for many years. I have read his previous debates and parliamentary questions on the subject, and he has been assiduous. In a number of areas, I have considerable sympathy with him. I have been overseeing the BBC for a very long time in one capacity or another, and a number of the issues he raised are ones on which I, too, campaigned. There are three issues on which we have made great progress, and for which I would like to take some credit, but I absolutely recognise the hon. Gentleman’s role. All the issues relate to the area of commissioning.”
“Gentleman has not raised some serious concerns; I hope they will be examined to his satisfaction. I think he is best placed to pursue them through the routes that I have suggested, but I am grateful to him for raising these matters this morning. Question put and agreed to .”
“Part of his role is to oversee the BBC’s activities in Northern Ireland, as well as to act as a member of the board as a whole. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will draw his concerns to Mr Smyth’s attention, and also take advantage of the BBC first complaints process. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about the individual who runs the editorial standards and guidelines committee, but there are also independent board members who sit on that committee. He could certainly draw his concerns to their attention. Ultimately, as we have discussed, the NAO has full access under the charter. If there are concerns about the way in which public money has been spent, that, too, is a matter that the NAO could investigate. I do not in any way suggest that the hon.”
“That matter is very different from the kind of issues that the hon. Gentleman raised. They relate to allegations that have been received about possible corrupt behaviour, and, obviously, that would also need to be investigated. The particular show that he referred to is presented by the fourth highest-paid person at the BBC. That, again, is another reason why a large amount of public money is spent, and we need to be satisfied. As I said, this is not a matter that the Government can or should investigate, but there are independent bodies that do so. The first port of call I suggest the Gentleman might talk to is the BBC board member for Northern Ireland, Mr Michael Smyth. He was recently appointed and has taken up his post.”