Sir John Whittingdale
MP for Maldon · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s confirmation of our continuing support for Ukraine. He has set out the sustained threat from Russia facing not just Ukraine, but this country and the whole of Europe, yet for too many people, it is still business as usual.”
“That is perhaps even more relevant to the second prong of the Government’s proposals, which is about social media. I will come to that point, but before I finish talking about local media, I want to mention that another of the Government’s flagship policies is devolution.”
“The hon. Member is completely right that this issue must be addressed before we proceed. There is also the question of cost, raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke). There are people who probably do have access to broadband, if they choose to pay for it, but they cannot afford to do so.”
“I was the Minister responsible for the passage of the Media Act 2024, during the previous Parliament. It is a great delight to see some familiar faces with whom I have worked with in the past on the officials’ Bench.”
“Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) that young people are turning more and more to social media, but I do not think that this policy is the answer, because it looks to me like a very dangerous extension of Government interference in the freedom of the press and the right to free speech.”
“My right hon. Friend asks a perfectly valid question, and I want to acknowledge that there are concerns. We had a debate in Westminster Hall not that long ago, and a number of my colleagues—particularly from Scotland—turned up to express concern about the fact that the quality of reception via broadband in their constituencies is very poo…”
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“Is the Minister aware of the analysis carried out by LECG into the economic model produced by the Gowers report? It shows that the model is based on a fundamental error and that the report’s conclusions on the economic benefit of extending the copyright term could not be made?”
“A long time ago, I started life as a special adviser at the then Department of Trade and Industry; I remember the debates that took place about whether we should introduce a levy on blank digital cassette tapes. I could see why they were a problem because, as a teenager, I had always tuned into the top 20 on a Sunday evening, with my cassette tape recorder poised to record—”
“Foster) mentioned that show what the programme actually amounts to in financial terms, and given that already hard-pressed teachers will have to squeeze the programme into the school day. None the less, the objective is a noble one, and other measures, such as the growth in apprenticeships and the investment in research, are also admirable. I shall, however, focus on one key issue. In supporting the creative industries, the Government have a fundamental role to play in respect of copyright, because that is the one thing that only they can enforce. Without copyright, the creative industries cannot survive, because they depend on being able to achieve a return on the creation of intellectual property. Copyright enforcement has always been a challenge.”
“I very much welcome the fact that we are debating the creative industries. The Minister gave us some statistics showing that their importance to the economy is growing, and I think that we all recognise that. Our manufacturing industry has slowly disappeared eastwards and has been followed by our service industries, which are now run from call centres in Bangalore or administered by migrant workers in this country. The one thing that we are left with that we are extremely good at is the creative industries, so it is extremely important that we give them every support. There are many things in the documents that I welcome. The “Find Your Talent” programme certainly has a worthy objective, although I am little sceptical about it, given the figures that the hon. Member for Bath (Mr.”
“In the past four years, the record industry has seen a 20 per cent. drop in its revenues, in large part due to piracy. The Minister mentioned the estimated £480 million loss by the TV and video industry in 2006. One survey in November 2007 revealed that 10 per cent. of the population had either home-copied a DVD or bought a counterfeit DVD, that 16 per cent. had illegally downloaded, streamed or burned discs and that 23 per cent. had borrowed and copied a disc, which, technically, is also illegal.”
“We must stop it.” Latterly, it has accepted that online distribution could create whole new markets and that it is an opportunity, and legal downloads are now growing. We are seeing a gradual shift, whereby more and more music is being made available online very cheaply, and quite often for a single payment that gives access to a huge library of music. That will probably result in a decline in revenue streams, but there is an acceptance of the inevitable and of the fact that it is better to get some revenue than none at all, which is the consequence of illegal distribution. Another consequence of the shift may be that live music performance becomes more important and that it will represent a bigger return for artists, which I would also welcome. The industry is waking up to the problem, but that problem is growing exponentially.”
“It is difficult to tell young people that one bit of copyright law is really important and that they must obey it, but that another bit does not matter too much so they can ignore it. I therefore welcome the discussions on putting in place a private copying exception. The industry has some concerns about it, and that exception will need to be narrowly drawn, but we need to amend the law so that home use is made legal and acceptable. As the Minister said, the industry will also need to take account of consumer behaviour regarding online distribution when it develops new business models. The record industry was very slow in responding to online distribution. It started off by saying, “This is awful—it will be the end of the world.”
“The Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport has looked at the challenges posed by new media to the creative industries, and we feel that the law is lagging behind. To give a specific example, almost every teenager—indeed, probably the vast majority of the population—owns an iPod, and such devices are becoming the preferred method of listening to music. However, it is still technically a breach of copyright for me to purchase a CD in a shop, take it home and put it on to my iPod, which is plainly ridiculous. The record industry will say, “Well, of course, we never dreamed that anybody would try to enforce that provision,” but the fact that copyright law has not taken account of format shifting and the way in which people now listen to music and, increasingly, watch video content, brings the law into disrepute to some extent.”
“Indeed, the day before yesterday, I spent a couple of hours with film piracy unit of the Metropolitan police, whose officers were talking about the continuing problem of pirated DVDs and, to some extent, CDs, which are churned out in garages up and down the country by server towers that can produce 40 or 50 discs at a time. A lot of that is done by Chinese immigrants who have been trafficked into the country and who are then required to repay those who brought them here by undertaking criminal activity, which very often involves piracy. That type of piracy is a challenge, but it is online piracy that is growing rapidly and that poses an even bigger threat. It is obviously important to update the law to take account of that threat.”
“Indeed—and others. I did not realise at the time that what I was doing was illegal, and certainly not that it was doing such damage to the music industry. Although the music industry did not like blank tape copying, however, it accepted it, because the results were not particularly high quality and the DJ usually interrupted halfway through, so the recordings were not really a substitute for buying an album. The problem now is that digitisation means that the quality of the music recording, which can be made available in digital format and easily pirated, is no different from that of a CD. Such recordings represent a far greater challenge because the quality has increased so dramatically and because of online distribution. Of course, online distribution is not the only problem; there has always been a problem of physical piracy.”
“No, indeed—the hon. Gentleman is quite right. However, a huge amount of illegal activity is being undertaken by a large proportion of the population. I have a 14-year-old son and he has a laptop. He and his friends share films on it. On his laptop at the moment, he has a number of films that are on show in the Odeon now; they are not on DVD because they have not yet been legally released. However, he has—against my wishes and, indeed, with my strong disapproval—downloaded those films from sites such as The Pirate Bay. My son has also told me how one of his friends at school will buy a computer game, which the students then crack, and it goes around the entire school. Every single laptop will have that game on it, and everyone will be playing it, but there will have been only one purchase.”
“I shall certainly convey that warning. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that I have done my best already, but the real problem is that it is not a small number of people who are doing this—it is the vast majority of the teenage population. We cannot lock up every teenager in the country.”
“Such efforts are important, but, to return to a point I made earlier, the industry will just have to accept that behaviour is changing and will have to adapt its business models to take account of that fact. Something like a single payment subscription to an iTunes library, which would give access to a huge range of material, would be a far more productive way of addressing the problem. I simply do not think that we shall persuade people that the old business models are sustainable and that they must change their behaviour. Education is hugely important.”
“My hon. Friend anticipates precisely the point that I was coming to. He is of course entirely right. Young people do not see that there is anything wrong with the practice. They have grown up with it and they see it as perfectly normal behaviour. I have attempted to make the comparison with shoplifting that my hon. Friend made, but I have not been wholly successful. I shall continue to make the case because I strongly believe that the practice in question is theft, but it is an enormous challenge. I welcome what the Minister said about greater education and the attempts that are being made to get the message across. British Music Rights, for example, has worked to introduce material into the curriculum to increase understanding of copyright.”
“However, like those who have already contributed today, I hope that her open mind will allow her to reconsider the matter soon and to reach a firm decision. An indication that she is becoming more sympathetic to our case—I am sure that other hon. Members will express support for it—would be a welcome and major contribution to supporting the creative industries.”
“It was for that reason that the Culture, Media and Sport Committee recommended an extension of the copyright term. We were extremely disappointed that the Government did not respond positively to that suggestion. However, things have since changed. Suddenly, out of the blue, Commissioner McCreevy saw the light and issued a statement that bears a remarkable resemblance to the wording of the Select Committee report. That may not be entirely coincidental, but the fact that the European Commission has accepted that there is a strong case for copyright term extension will, I hope, cause the Government to think again. I welcome the Minister’s comment to me at Question Time a few days ago when she said that she had an open mind.”
“I cannot resist reading a letter that I received last year—one of the most exciting letters that I have received for a long time. It came from Mr. Eddie Clarke, also known as Fast Eddie, the lead guitarist of Motörhead. I must admit that I have seen them perform on several occasions. He wrote: “You may think that as a rock musician I should not expect to live until 80. I can assure you I did not think this was going to happen but with modern technology and medicine, it certainly seems a possibility—even my old partner in crime Lemmy might make it. My royalties will be my pension and something to pass on to my family, so to learn that they will be stripped away before my 80th birthday is frankly unacceptable.” I think that Fast Eddie speaks for a huge number of performers in the industry.”
“There has been a long-standing campaign by the music industry, which points to the fact that composers, lyricists and designers all enjoy copyright on CDs until 70 years after their deaths, whereas the producers and performers have only a 50-year term. That is unfair. The Gowers report suggested that the extension of copyright term might not produce much economic benefit. That has been questioned by the industry, as I mentioned earlier, but, at the end of the day, that does not seem to me to be the point at all. It is not about whether extension will generate more economic activity, but about morals and rights. Why should somebody who creates a work be allowed to benefit from it for only 50 years? Other countries across the world have far longer terms. The case for moving in that direction is very strong.”
“I am told that in America the ISPs are discovering that the amount of video content that is being distributed is taking up a vast amount of bandwidth and slowing down the whole system. They know that the majority of that activity is illegal. Tackling the problem is therefore becoming something that is in the ISPs’ interests. That may explain why they have suddenly become rather more enthusiastic about doing so. I will finish on the issue of copyright extension, which was raised by the hon. Member for Bath and will no doubt be mentioned by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart).”
“I was told that the discussions between the Music Publishers Association and the ISPs are very productive. There is a general willingness to accept that where the rights holder identifies a particular IP address as the source of a lot of material that is being uploaded, they can notify the ISP, which will identify which computer, if not which user, is responsible and serve a notice of warning that if the activity continues, they will be taken down. That is a real step forward and represents a change of attitude in the industry. I hope that others will join that move—for example, I think there is a role for search engines to play in trying to make it far harder for people to find out how to access illegal material. We can be optimistic about such measures being introduced.”
“The industry has suggested that making it a criminal offence would send a strong signal, and the Select Committee supported that. The most important element, as the Minister rightly mentioned, is to encourage the ISPs to accept that they must get involved and that they have a responsibility. For a long time, ISPs seemed to be saying, “We are no more than telecoms companies. We supply the copper down which data flow, but in the same way that British Telecom cannot be held accountable for what people say in telephone conversations, we cannot be held accountable for how people use our delivery mechanisms.” That is now changing, and the Government are right to express the hope that a self-regulatory system can be created. This morning, while the hon. Member for Bath was meeting the Internet Service Providers Association, I was meeting Yahoo!”
“It seems to me that a tax on blank discs or iPods is not the way forward: it would clearly be unpopular, and it would be very difficult to work out how the proceeds of such a levy would be distributed back to the owners of rights, as some have suggested. A small measure that could be taken, which the Select Committee recommended, and which might make a difference, concerns access to pirated films, which sometimes appear within hours of a film’s release. Quite a lot of it is done by people sitting in cinemas with camcorders. When people go to the cinema they see all sorts of dire warnings on the screen about being expelled and subsequently banned from the cinema, prosecuted and fined, but the truth is that such filming is not a criminal offence. It is a civil offence.”
“The two people in question deny responsibility and say that all they did was to create the access mechanisms. That is not so much organised crime, and in some ways it represents a bigger challenge. There are things that the Government can do besides improving education, which is vital, and encouraging the industry to adapt its practices. Some of those actions, which I welcome, are set out in the White Paper. However, I hope that the Government will not consider hardware levies. I have not seen evidence that they are being considered by the Government, but there are some in the industry who are now talking about them, and of course they exist in one or two European countries.”
“I half agree with my hon. Friend. I think he is correct when he talks about physical product. There is a lot of evidence that the manufacture of counterfeit DVDs and CDs is being conducted by organised crime and feeds the misery that he has described. The problem with online illegal distribution is that it is free. That is why everyone does it; they get access to the material and pay nothing, so there is not any great financial motive. A famous instance is The Pirate Bay, which I think was created by two Swedish teenagers; they did it because it was fun. They did not believe in copyright, and they had the technology, so they sat in their bedroom and created The Pirate Bay. As a result, peer-to-peer file sharing is now taking place across the world.”
“Is the Minister saying that she will consider that question only on the basis of the economic impact, because in our view the argument goes way beyond the economic effect it will have?”
“Does the Minister accept that the success of the creative industries depends heavily on their continuing to be able to benefit from copyright? Will she therefore give the Government’s support to Commissioner McCreevy’s proposal that the term of copyright protection for performers should be extended, as was unanimously recommended by the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport?”
“One of the key aspects of the BBFC’s work is that it reaches decisions prior to the release of films, often in discussion with film makers. I assume that, under the Bill, the appeal process can take place only after a film has been released, because people will need to have seen it in order to object. Is there not a danger of creating a real double jeopardy for the film industry? I have to tell my hon. Friend that that is why most in the industry are very concerned about his proposals.”
“It is what is called Italian schlock, and many people will find it offensive because of the subject matter—because it involves Nazis and extermination camps. It is pretty tasteless and pretty offensive, but I have to say that there is not a single scene in that film that I could argue should be banned. The scenes of so-called torture and sex are mild compared with anything that a person could see today in the Odeon down the road. I know that that will cause my hon. Friend concern, and he is right to have concern about some of the material—graphic scenes of torture and violence—that is now regarded as mainstream Hollywood entertainment. We are not talking about Italian schlock; we are talking about big-budget, multi-million pound films. My hon. Friend needs to be open about the fact that it is those scenes that he is trying to address.”
“Similarly, “Straw Dogs”, a hugely controversial film, was banned for many years, mainly because of the rape scene in it involving Susan George. Not only is it now available on release on DVD, but it has been shown on television, as have a number of the films that I have mentioned. Of course, if people believe that the BBFC was wrong to allow the release of a film, as soon as it is shown on television they have a method of protesting against that—they can make a complaint to Ofcom, as Ofcom has powers to rule against harmful or offensive content being shown on television, but as far as I am aware, it has not done so. My hon. Friend talked about “SS Experiment Camp”. He kindly lent me a copy, and I spent 90 minutes—not the most enjoyable 90 minutes of my life—watching it. It is a truly dreadful film.”
“Actually, it was made by somebody who has some religious belief, and who argued that it was a deeply religious film. Again, I think that it is a film with some merit. Then there are films that were banned but that have now been released. My hon. Friend referred to some of the so-called video nasties of the early 1980s. I well remember the furore about “The Driller Killer” and “I Spit on your Grave”. I saw “I Spit on your Grave” on sale in WH Smith a few months ago; it has now been passed for release. There is no doubt that society has changed its attitude. The Hammer horror films were originally rated 18. Vincent Price baring his fangs was thought to be so horrifying that nobody under 18 could watch it. Nobody today would seriously argue that the Hammer horror films should be rated 18.”
“I also remember the controversy about David Cronenberg’s “Crash”, in which the main character enjoys having sex with the victims of car crashes. I went to see that film as part of the London film festival. It was not particularly good. I did not think that it had great merit, although I recognise that Cronenberg is a good director. Nevertheless, I accepted that some people would take a different view. Nothing in it was so unacceptable that I should prevent other people from going to see it. There are many other examples that I could give. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury has not mentioned the issue of faith, but that, too, generates huge controversy. Many people found Martin Scorsese’s “The Last Temptation of Christ” deeply objectionable, and a number of them thought that it should be banned.”
“A lot of debate in the British Board of Film Classification is not about whether something should have an 18 classification but about the correct age rating below that. There is a lot of argument about it. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury suggested that society was somehow becoming more tolerant of violence and that films were now being released that would not have been released some time ago. That is the case, and there are certainly examples of that, but I should not like him to suggest that there has not always been huge controversy over films. I remember the controversy over Oliver Stone’s “Natural Born Killers”, which was said to push violence to a new extreme. I actually think that it is quite a good film. It is not very easy to watch, but it is well made and it has a serious point.”
“I think that everybody would accept that certain types of content are beyond that line and are unacceptable in society, such as child pornography, videos depicting forcible rape scenes and snuff movies, where it is apparently the case that the people being tortured or killed are actually suffering that fate in reality. Those are clearly unacceptable. Age ratings are just as important. I agree with the right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) that the protection of children is perhaps our highest priority. That does not just mean protecting children from scenes of sex or violence through an 18 classification; it means going below 18 to say that some material is suitable for 15 or 12-year-olds but not for younger children.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier). There is absolutely no doubt that the Bill addresses a matter of public concern, and my hon. Friend is doing a public service by allowing us to debate it. Normally, he and I agree about almost all matters, so it is with some sadness that I say I do not agree with all his remarks this morning. Everybody accepts that there must be a degree of control. I should not think that anybody would argue that there should be no restrictions whatever and that one should be able to buy any kind of video game or other content. The question is where to draw the line.”
“If I may, I will come on to the issue of accountability, because I accept that it is important. I am not necessarily persuaded by the public opinion research. Opinion polls have shown different results, as they always do. My hon. Friend cast doubt on the BBFC’s methodology, but it prides itself on the amount of research that it does on public opinion. I am sure that it will address the concerns raised by my hon. Friend, and if there are serious doubts about the accuracy of its polling, I suspect that it will be the first to want to address that.”
“The use of the F-word used to mean that a film would automatically be rated 18, but that is no longer the case. I suspect that most people would accept that attitudes in that area have changed. I do not say that the BBFC does not ban films; it does, but rarely. Some might say that it is a happy coincidence—perhaps it is not a coincidence—that yesterday the BBFC announced, for the first time this year, that it was banning a film. It is called “Murder-Set-Pieces”. Last year, it banned a film called “Struggle in Bondage”, which covered a lot of the ground that my hon. Friend talked about. It showed women being tied up and subjected to abuse, with no indication that they had consented to that. The BBFC felt that it was unacceptable and it rightly banned it.”
“I heard my hon. Friend make that point in his speech, and I am sure that the BBFC will want to respond to it. I look forward to hearing its response. I merely say to him that one should not necessarily be dictated to by pubic opinion. We need to do more research on public opinion on the subject. The issue affects not just the BBFC; I remember the extensive public research done by the Broadcasting Standards Council when it had responsibility for the regulation of broadcast media content. That, too, showed that there was undoubtedly a change in attitude. A lot of the material that was felt to be unacceptable 30 years ago is now regarded as perfectly acceptable; no one would pretend otherwise. The use of offensive language is another key criterion in determining classification.”
“On the other hand, I went to see “The Last King of Scotland”, which was rated 15, but which in my view should probably have been an 18. All of us will argue about where the line should be drawn, and probably everybody will have different views. One should be aware that there are big issues at stake when deciding where to draw the line. The certification of a film can have a considerable impact not only on the amount of revenue that it makes, but on public expectation and people’s desire to see that film. One of the films that led to the greatest number of complaints to the BBFC last year was “Casino Royale”, which contains some gritty, violent scenes. I am thinking of two in particular: a scene where Bond is tortured sitting naked on a chair; and a graphic fight scene right at the start of the film.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is of course completely correct to set out that distinction. As I suggested earlier, some of the most controversial questions have to do with age classification. In some cases, the BBFC has been too strict and should have been more liberal. Let me give an example. I went to see “Sweeney Todd”, Tim Burton’s new film, which is very good. It is a musical, but it contains gore and shows people having their throat cut, although it is a fairly unrealistic depiction. The BBFC decided that the film should be rated 18. I have a son who is just about to turn 15, and I would have no qualms about allowing him to see that film. I think that it would be perfectly acceptable for it to be a 15.”
“The right hon. Gentleman is right; I accept that there is a distinction. I shall come on to video games, but I want to pursue the point I am making. “Casino Royale” generated a lot of complaints to the BBFC from people who felt it had been far too lenient and the film should have been rated 15. Had that been the rating, my son for one would have been furious, as, I suspect, would most of Britain’s young teenage population. They were all desperate to see that film, and I do not believe that seeing it did them any harm. It has some fairly unpleasant scenes, but it is good that a child should be exposed to such scenes and learn to see them as fiction by the time they reach 12. I did not disagree with the BBFC’s decision on that occasion.”
“Some BBFC decisions are courageous, and it is not always the liberal body about which my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury has concerns. My concern is not about “SS Experiment Camp”, because it is so bad that it will sell almost no copies. I fear that it has probably enjoyed a boom in sales since he put it on the front page of The Sunday Times , but I suspect that those who buy it will be deeply disappointed. What concerns me is the degree of violence that is selling huge numbers of tickets in Odeons up and down the land, although I do not necessarily agree with his prescription.”
“That is right. I shall give another example of where the BBFC had an argument with the film maker and where I believe it was correct. This goes back a little while, but I am referring to “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom”. Those who have seen the film, probably in their youth, will know that there is a scene where the high priest tears the heart out of a sacrificial victim. The film maker, one Steven Spielberg, felt strongly that it should be included in the film and seen by a young audience. At the time, the BBFC took a different view, had a long argument with Spielberg and stood its ground, and the scene was not allowed to be shown. I was told—I think by James Firman, to whom I pay tribute for pioneering the work of the BBFC—that Spielberg said much later that on reflection the BBFC was right and the scene was a step too far.”
“They are some of the most successful films in the past couple of years. Those films should arguably have been cut more than they were, although I accept that a subjective judgment needed to be made about that. A more concerning point, to which I do not have an answer, is the fact that millions of our fellow citizens chose to go to watch them. My hon. Friend must accept that if his Bill were to pass, he would be addressing not the kind of films watched by a small number of rather strange people, but the kind of films watched by huge numbers of people who get enjoyment from them.”
“I can trade the hon. Gentleman Russ Meyer titles—“Faster, Pussycat…Kill! Kill!” is another example that would meet his criteria. The Russ Meyer films are not to my taste, but I do not have any great objection to them—they are comic strips really. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury has to think carefully about a much more serious matter. I shall give two examples of the sort of films that cause me concern. The first is the “Saw” series—“Saw”, “Saw II” and “Saw III”. The other is the “Hostel” series—“Hostel” and “Hostel part 2”. They show scenes of graphic torture and are known as torture porn. They are highly unpleasant, and because they are quite big-budget films, they are highly realistic. They are not grainy B movies; these are mainstream, big-budget Hollywood movies that are selling tickets by the million.”
“Young males may be the category about which my hon. Friend is most concerned, but the appeal of these films goes way beyond just them. Whether or not exposure to films or, to some extent, video games, can directly lead to violence is hugely unclear. My Select Committee took evidence last week from Professor Sonia Livingstone, who has done a great deal of work in this area. We are examining games in particular, and I want to say a few words about them. She said that the evidence is largely anecdotal and no clear peer-reviewed, accepted research can definitely show yet whether there is a link.”
“Member for Leicester, East, but appointments to the BBFC are made by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, so it seems slightly curious that the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport would not scrutinise them to see whether we agreed with the decision. As the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) said, there has been great discussion about the extent to which Select Committees should get involved in scrutinising public appointments. I am certainly in favour of their doing so and welcome the Prime Minister’s decision to allow that. It is the Prime Minister’s initiative, but despite the belief of my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury that he enjoys his warm support for the Bill, the Prime Minister did not suggest the BBFC as a body whose appointments should be subject to public scrutiny.”
“We thus need to look seriously at the issue and, in particular, at the impact of electronic games, for precisely the reason expressed by the right hon. Member for Leicester, East. There is a difference between games and films. Games have a much greater degree of interactivity and are played over and over again—neither of those things applies necessarily to watching a film. I have one or two practical concerns about what my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury proposes. First, he wants appointments to the BBFC to be subject to scrutiny by the Select Committee on Home Affairs. I do not want to get into a turf war with the right hon.”
“I would hope that not many people would want to see such a film, but the answer is that we must draw lines, as I said at the beginning. Of course some things are unacceptable, but we must also take account of the public taste. If a large number of people want to watch a film, even though I personally might find the film distasteful, I would be extremely reluctant to have it banned. I do not like banning things, particularly things that enjoy large popular support. I hope that a number of my hon. Friends share that stance. The question of a linkage between watching films and committing violence is unproven, although I agree that more research needs to be done. There is an argument in favour of acting on the precautionary principle.”
“Gale) will remember her even better than I do—Claire Rayner, Fay Weldon, former head teachers and directors of social services and area child protection committees. It is not an industry-led body. I was pretty horrified when it overturned the BBFC decision on “Manhunt 2”, and I am pleased that its decision has been challenged, but I would not like it to be thought that the VAC is just a patsy for the industry, which will accept whatever argument is made to it.”
“It seems to be double jeopardy for that process to be undergone, an agreement reached and a film put on general release with the cuts that the BBFC has asked for, and then for the whole process to be overturned because 50 MPs sign an early-day motion saying that it should be. There is an existing internal appeals body, the Video Appeals Committee, to which my hon. Friend referred, although it is the industry that can appeal to it. He suggested that it was somehow there to do the industry’s bidding—I think that he said it was quasi-independent. I would say only that its president is a former director of the Serious Fraud Office, and its membership includes people such as Biddy Baxter, whom I fondly remember as the producer of “Blue Peter”—my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr.”