Sir John Whittingdale
MP for Maldon · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I strongly welcome the Secretary of State’s confirmation of our continuing support for Ukraine. He has set out the sustained threat from Russia facing not just Ukraine, but this country and the whole of Europe, yet for too many people, it is still business as usual.”
“That is perhaps even more relevant to the second prong of the Government’s proposals, which is about social media. I will come to that point, but before I finish talking about local media, I want to mention that another of the Government’s flagship policies is devolution.”
“The hon. Member is completely right that this issue must be addressed before we proceed. There is also the question of cost, raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke). There are people who probably do have access to broadband, if they choose to pay for it, but they cannot afford to do so.”
“I was the Minister responsible for the passage of the Media Act 2024, during the previous Parliament. It is a great delight to see some familiar faces with whom I have worked with in the past on the officials’ Bench.”
“Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) that young people are turning more and more to social media, but I do not think that this policy is the answer, because it looks to me like a very dangerous extension of Government interference in the freedom of the press and the right to free speech.”
“My right hon. Friend asks a perfectly valid question, and I want to acknowledge that there are concerns. We had a debate in Westminster Hall not that long ago, and a number of my colleagues—particularly from Scotland—turned up to express concern about the fact that the quality of reception via broadband in their constituencies is very poo…”
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“Furthermore, the Bill allows the new Information Commission to establish committees, which may include specialists from outside the organisation with key skills and expertise in specialist areas. As such, the Government are of the firm view that the Information Commission is best placed to provide regulatory oversight of biometric data, rather than delegating responsibility and functions to a separate office. The creation of a new body would likely cause confusion for those seeking redress, by creating novel complaints processes for biometric-related complaints, as set out in new clause 13(3)(c)(iii). It would also complicate regulatory oversight and decision making by providing the new office with powers to impose fines, as per subsection (2)(e). For those reasons, I encourage the hon. Lady to withdraw her new clause.”
“New clause 13 would require the Information Commission to establish a new separate statutory biometrics office with responsibility for the oversight and regulation of biometric data and technology. However, the Information Commissioner already has responsibility for monitoring and enforcing the processing of biometric data, as it falls within the definition of personal data. Under the Bill, the new body corporate—the Information Commission—will continue to monitor and enforce the processing of all personal data under the data protection legislation, including biometric data. Indeed, with its new independent board and governance structure, the commission will enjoy greater diversity in skills and decision making, ensuring that the regulator has the right blend of skills and expertise at the very top of the organisation.”
“I can assure my hon. Friend that the Home Office is working with partners in the criminal justice system to find ways of safely reducing the redaction burden while maintaining public trust. It is important that we give them the time to do so. We need to resolve the issue through an evidence-based solution that will ensure that the right amount of redaction is done at the right point in the process, so as to reduce any delays while maintaining victim and witness confidence in the process. I assure my hon. Friend that her point is very well taken on board and the Government are looking at how we can achieve her objective as quickly as possible, but I hope she will accept that, at this point, it would be sensible to withdraw her new clause.”
“I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough, who has been assiduous in pursuing her point and has set out very clearly the purpose of her new clause. We share her wish to reduce unnecessary burdens on the police as much as possible. The new clause seeks to achieve that in relation to the preparation by police officers of pre-charge files, which is an issue that the National Police Chiefs’ Council has raised with the Home Office, as I think she knows. This is a serious matter for our police forces, which estimate that about four hours is spent redacting a typical case file. They argue that reducing that burden would enable officers to spend more time on frontline policing. We completely understand the frustration that many officers feel about having to spend a huge amount of time on what they see as unnecessary redaction.”
“Friends for attending the Committee and for their contributions, particularly saying “Aye” at the appropriate moments, which has allowed us to get to this point. I also thank the officials in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. I picked up this baton on day two of my new role covering the maternity leave of my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez); I did so with some trepidation, but the officials have made my task considerably easier and I am hugely indebted to them. I thank everybody for allowing us to get this point. I look forward to further debate on Report, in due course.”
“May I join the hon. Lady in expressing thanks to you, Mr Hollobone, and to Mr Paisley for chairing the Bill Committee so efficiently and getting us to this point ahead of schedule? I thank all members of the Committee for their participation: we have been involved in what will be seen to be a very important piece of legislation. I am very grateful to the Opposition for their support in principle for many of the objectives of the Bill. It is absolutely right that the Opposition scrutinise the detail, and the hon. Member for Barnsley East and her colleagues have done so very effectively. I am pleased that we have reached this point with the Bill so far unamended, but obviously we will be considering it further on Report. I thank all my hon.”
“In addition, should the notice no longer be required, the Secretary of State can withdraw it. For that reason, we cannot accept the amendment.”
“Amendment 105 seeks to increase the role of the Information Commissioner’s Office by requiring it to judge whether the designation notice is required for the purposes of safeguarding national security. The Bill requires the Secretary of State to consult the ICO as part of the Secretary of State’s decision whether to grant a notice, but it is not the function of the ICO in its capacity as a regulator to assess national security requirements. The ICO’s expertise is in data protection, not in national security, and it would be inappropriate for it to decide on the latter; that decision should be reserved to the Secretary of State. We believe that clause 25 provides significant safeguards through proposed new sections 82B and 82E, which provide respectively for legal challenge and annual review of a notice.”
“When the Committee last adjourned, I had already spoken to clauses 24 to 26 and was responding to amendment 105, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Barnsley East. However, let me give a quick recap. Clauses 24 to 26 are essentially designed to enable better joined-up working between the intelligence services and law enforcement. To that end, they will allow qualifying authorities to use part 4 of the data protection regime, but the Secretary of State will be required to issue a designation notice. We believe that enabling qualifying competent authorities to jointly process data under one regime in authorised, specific circumstances will allow better control over data in a way that is not possible under two different data protection regimes.”
“The clause introduces a principal objective for the commissioner, first to secure an appropriate level of protection for personal data, taking into account the interests of data subjects, controllers and others along with matters of general public interest, and secondly to promote public trust and confidence in the processing of personal data. This principal objective will replace section 2(2) of the Data Protection Act 2018.”
“We now come to the provisions in the Bill relating to the powers of the Information Commissioner. Clause 27 will introduce a new strategic framework for the Information Commissioner when carrying out his functions under data protection legislation. The framework contains a principal data protection objective and a number of general duties. The legislation does not currently provide the commissioner with a framework of strategic objectives to help to prioritise activities and resources, evaluate performance and be held accountable by stakeholders. Instead, the commissioner is obliged to fulfil a long list of tasks and functions without a clear strategic framework to guide his work.”
“Clause 27 also introduces new reporting requirements for the commissioner in relation to the strategic framework. The commissioner will be required to publish a forward-looking strategy outlining how he intends to meet the new principal objective and duties, as well as pre-existing duties in the Deregulation Act 2015 and the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006. Finally, the commissioner will be required to publish a review of what he has done to comply with the principal objective, and with the new and existing duties, in his annual report.”
“As I have said, clause 27 introduces new duties that the commissioner must consider where they are relevant to his work in carrying out data protection functions: the desirability of promoting innovation and competition; the importance of the prevention, investigation, detection and prosecution of criminal offences; the need to safeguard public security and national security; and, where necessary, the need to consult other regulators when considering how the ICO’s work may affect economic growth, innovation and competition. There is also the statement of strategic priorities, which is introduced by clause 28. However, as I have indicated to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central, the commissioner will be clear that his primary focus should be to achieve the principal objective.”
“Obviously that is a matter for the Information Commissioner, but that is the overriding principal objective. I am about to set out some of the other objectives that the clause will introduce, but it is made very clear that the principal objective is to ensure the appropriate level of protection. Precisely how the Information Commissioner interprets “appropriate level of protection” is a matter for him, but I think it is fairly clear what that should entail, as he himself set out in his evidence.”
“I think we will come on to some of the questions around the fees that are potentially payable, particularly by those organisations that may be required to provide more evidence, and the costs that that could entail. I will return to that subject shortly. The new strategic framework acknowledges the breadth of the ICO’s remit and its impact on other areas. We believe that it will provide clarity for the commissioner, businesses and the general public on the commissioner’s objectives and duties. I therefore commend clause 27 to the Committee.”
“I think that was slightly qualified support for the clause. Nevertheless, we welcome the support of the Opposition. Question put and agreed to. Clause 27 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 28 Strategic priorities”
“Once the statement is drafted, the Secretary of State will be required to lay it before Parliament, where it will be subject to the negative resolution procedure before it can be designated. The commissioner will need to consider the statement when carrying out functions under the data protection legislation, except functions relating to a particular person, case or investigation. Once designated, the commissioner will be required to respond to the statement, outlining how he intends to consider it in future data protection work. The commissioner will also be required to report on how he has considered the statement in his annual report. I commend the clause to the Committee.”
“Clause 28 provides a power for the Secretary of State to prepare a statement of strategic priorities relating to data protection as part of the new strategic framework for the Information Commissioner. The statement will contain only the Government’s data protection priorities, and the Secretary of State may choose to include both domestic and international priorities. That will enable the Government to provide a transparent statement of how their data protection priorities fit in with their wider agenda, giving the commissioner, we hope, helpful context. Although the commissioner must take the statement into account when carrying out his functions, he is not required to act in accordance with it. That means that the statement will not be used in a way to direct what the commissioner may and may not do.”
“We agree about the importance of the independence of the Information Commissioner, but I do not think that the statement, as we have set out, is an attempt to interfere with that. I remind the hon. Lady that in relation to the statement of strategic priorities, she asked the Information Commissioner himself: “Do you perceive that having any impact on your organisation’s ability to act independently of political direction?”, and he replied: “No, I do not believe it will undermine our independence at all.” –– [ Official Report, Data Protection and Digital Information (No. 2) Public Bill Committee, 10 May 2023; c. 6, Q3.]”
“Ms Irvine may have been surprised. I have to say that we were not. What the Information Commissioner said absolutely chimed with our view of the statement, so I am afraid on this occasion I will disagree with the Law Society of Scotland. Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“While the commissioner currently carries out impact assessments when developing codes of practice, we believe that there are advantages to formalising an approach on the face of the legislation to ensure consistency. Given the importance of the statutory codes, we believe it is important that there is a further degree of democratic accountability within the process. Therefore, clause 31 requires the commissioner to submit the final version of a statutory code to the Secretary of State for approval. On that basis, I commend the relevant clauses to the Committee, but I am aware that the hon. Member for Barnsley East wishes to propose an amendment.”
“That panel will be made up of relevant stakeholders and, although the commissioner will have discretion over its membership, he or she will be required to explain how the panel was chosen. The panel will consider a draft of a statutory code and submit a report of its recommendations to the commissioner. The commissioner will be required to publish the panel’s response to the code and, if he chooses not to follow a recommendation, the reasons must also be published. Clause 30 also requires the commissioner to publish impact assessments setting out who will be affected by the new or amended code and the impact it will have on them.”
“Clauses 30 and 31 introduce reforms to the process by which the commissioner develops statutory codes of practice for data protection. They require the commissioner to undertake and publish impact assessments, consult with a panel of experts during the development of a code, and submit the final version of a code to the Secretary of State for approval. Those processes will apply to the four statutory codes that the commissioner is already required to produce and to any new statutory codes on the processing of personal data that the commissioner is required to prepare under regulation made by the Secretary of State. The commissioner will be required to set up and consult a panel of experts when drafting a statutory code.”
“New section 124A provides the Secretary of State with the power to make regulations requiring the commissioner to produce codes of practice giving guidance as to good practice in the processing of personal data. Before preparing any code, the commissioner must consult the Secretary of State and other interested parties such as trade associations, data subjects and groups representing data subjects. That is similar to the consultation requirements for the existing codes. The parliamentary approval processes and requirements for the ICO to keep existing codes under review are also extended to any new codes required by the Secretary of State. The amendment also ensures that those codes requested by the Secretary of State have the same legal effect as those set out on the face of the DPA.”
“However, due to the current drafting of the provisions, any codes required by regulations made by the Secretary of State and issued by the commissioner would not be subject to the same formal parliamentary approval process or review requirements as the codes issued under sections 121 to 124. In addition, they do not have the same legal effect, and courts and tribunals would not be required to take a relevant provision of the code into account when determining a relevant question. Clearly, it is not appropriate to have two different standards of statutory codes of practice. To address that, clause 29 replaces the original section 128 with new section 124A, so that codes required in regulations made by the Secretary of State follow a similar procedure to codes issued under sections 121 to 124.”
“Under sections 121 to 124 of the Data Protection Act, the commissioner is obliged to publish four statutory codes of practice: the data sharing code, the direct marketing code, the age-appropriate design code, and the data protection and journalism code. The DPA includes provisions concerning the parliamentary approval process, requirements for publication and review by the commissioner, and details of the legal effect of each of the codes. So far, the commissioner has completed the data sharing code and the age-appropriate design code. Section 128 of the Act permits the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring the Information Commissioner to prepare other codes that give guidance as to good practice in the processing of personal data. Those powers have not yet been used, but may be useful in the future.”
“Given the significant number of ways in which personal data can be used, we believe that it is important that the regulator provides guidance for data controllers, particularly on complex and technical areas of the law, and that the guidance should be accessible and enable compliance with the legislation efficiently and easily. We are therefore making a number of reforms to the process by which the Information Commissioner produces statutory codes of practice. Clause 29 is a technical measure that ensures that all statutory codes of practice issued under the Data Protection Act 2018 follow the same parliamentary procedures, have the same legal effect, and are published and kept under review by the Information Commissioner.”
“6-7, Q4.] On that basis, we think that there should be the ongoing ability for the Secretary of State—and, through the Secretary of State, Parliament—to approve the final version of the code, but we do not feel that this interferes with the Information Commissioner’s ability to carry out his functions, nor does it represent any view as to our adequacy agreement.”
“I fully share her view on its importance to the wider functioning of the economy, but when she raised the matter with the Information Commissioner he did not believe that it posed any risk. Indeed, he went on to point out: “A failure of the Secretary of State to table and issue a proposed code would not affect the way in which the commissioner discharges his or her enforcement functions. We would still be able to investigate matters and find them in breach, regardless of whether that finding was consistent with the Secretary of State’s view of the law.” –– [ Official Report, Data Protection and Digital Information (No. 2) Public Bill Committee, 10 May 2023; c.”
“Although I understand the concern behind the amendment, we do not believe it to be justified. I understand that the hon. Lady does not want a code to be rejected multiple times, but we regard this as a final safeguard and it will be fully transparent. We are absolutely committed to maintaining the commissioner’s independence, but we think it also important that the Government have the opportunity to give a view before the code is laid before Parliament and for Parliament to give final approval. The amendment would unduly limit the Government’s ability to provide as necessary that further degree of democratic accountability. The hon. Lady referred to the importance of maintaining adequacy, which we have already touched on.”
“I welcome the support of the Opposition for many of the principles contained in the clauses. I turn to amendment 111, tabled by the hon. Lady. As the clause originally sets out, once the commissioner is issued the final version of the code, the Secretary of State decides whether to approve it. If they do approve the code, it will be laid before Parliament for final approval. If they do not, they are required to publish their reasons. The amendment would place a limit on that, so that the Secretary of State would be able to reject the final version of the code only once. If the code is revised by the commissioner in the light of the comments of the Secretary of State and resubmitted, under the amendment the Secretary of State would have to lay the code in Parliament for final approval.”
“Clause 32 replicates that language, inserting the same new threshold into section 135 of the Data Protection Act 2018, to ensure that the Information Commissioner’s exemption is consistent across the legislation. I urge the Committee to agree to the clause.”
“Taking advantage of your invitation, Mr Hollobone, I shall speak only briefly. The UK’s data protection framework allows a data subject or data protection officer to make a request to the Information Commissioner for information concerning the exercise of their data protection rights. The commissioner is expected to respond to a data subject or data protection officer and make no charge in the majority of cases, but the commissioner can refuse to respond or charge a reasonable fee for a response to a request when it is “manifestly unfounded or excessive”. Clause 7 changes the “manifestly unfounded or excessive” threshold for all requests from data subjects across the UK data protection framework to “vexatious or excessive”.”
“Clause 33 introduces the requirement for the Information Commissioner to prepare and publish an analysis of their performance, using key performance indicators. The regulator will be required to publish that analysis at least annually. The commissioner will have the discretion to decide which factors effectively measure their performance. Improving the commissioner’s monitoring and reporting mechanisms will strengthen their accountability to Parliament, organisations and the public, who have an interest in the commissioner’s effectiveness. Performance measurement will also have benefits for the commissioner, including by supporting their work of measuring progress towards their objectives and ensuring that resources are prioritised in the right areas. I urge that clause 33 stand part of the Bill.”
“The amendment to schedule 2 will remove the reference to consultation under section 65 of the Data Protection Act when section 155 is applied. It is necessary to remove reference to section 65 of the Data Protection Act when section 155 is applied with modification under schedule 2, as consultation requirements under that section are not relevant to the regulation of trust service providers under the UK eIDAS. I hope that that is helpful to Members in explaining the merits of our approach to ensuring that the Information Commissioner has the right enforcement tools at its disposal and continues to be an effective and transparent regulator. I commend the clauses and Government amendment 47 to the Committee.”
“Clause 42 amends the EITSET regulations to ensure that the new enforcement powers introduced by clauses 34 to 37 are available to the Information Commissioner for the purposes of regulating trust service providers. The new powers will help to ensure that the Information Commissioner is able to access the evidence needed to inform investigations. The powers will result in more informed investigations and, we believe, better outcomes. Clause 42 ensures that the Information Commissioner will continue to be able to act as an effective supervisory body for trust service providers established in the UK. Government amendment 47 amends schedule 2 to the EITSET regulations. The amendment 2 is consequential to the amendment of section 155(3)(c) of the Data Protection Act made by schedule 4 to the Bill.”
“The report will include the commissioner’s investigatory activity and how the regulator has exercised its enforcement powers. That will lead to greater transparency of the commissioner’s regulatory activity. Clauses 34 to 37, as I said, make changes to the Data Protection Act 2018 in respect of the Information Commissioner’s enforcement powers. Consequential on clauses 35 and 36, clause 42 makes changes to the Electronic Identification and Trust Services for Electronic Transactions Regulations 2016, known as the EITSET regulations. The EITSET regulations extend and modify the Information Commissioner’s enforcement powers to apply to its role as the supervisory body for trust service providers under the UK regulations on electronic identification and trust services for electronic transactions, known as the UK eIDAS.”
“That can prove difficult in some cases—for instance, if the organisation under investigation submits new evidence that affects the case at a late stage, or when the legal representations are particularly complex. The clause allows the regulator more time to issue a final penalty notice after issuing a notice of intent, where that is needed. That will benefit business, as it means the commissioner can give organisations more time to prepare their representations, and will result in better outcomes by ensuring that the commissioner has sufficient time to assess representations and draw his conclusions. Clause 38 introduces the requirement for the Information Commissioner to produce and publish an annual report on regulatory activity.”
“The ability to require a person to attend an interview will help to explain an organisation’s practices or evidence submitted, and circumvent a protracted and potentially fruitless series of back-and-forth communication via information notices. The power is based on existing comparable powers for the Financial Conduct Authority and the Competition and Markets Authority. Clause 37 amends the provisions for the Information Commissioner to impose penalties set out in the Data Protection Act. It will allow the commissioner more time, where needed, to issue a final penalty notice after issuing a notice of intent. At the moment the Act requires the commissioner to issue a notice of intent to issue a penalty notice; the commissioner then has up to six months to issue the penalty notice unless an extension is agreed.”
“The commissioner is required to act proportionately, so we expect that the power would be used only in a small minority of investigations, likely to be those that are particularly complex and technical in nature. Clause 36 grants the Information Commissioner the power to require a person to attend an interview and answer questions when investigating a suspected failure to comply with data protection legislation. At the moment, the Information Commissioner can only interview people who attend voluntarily, which means there is a heavy reliance on documentary evidence. Sometimes that is ambiguous or incomplete and can lead to uncertainty.”
“Clause 35 makes provision for the Information Commissioner to require a data controller or processor to commission a report from an approved person on a specified matter when exercising the power under section 146 of the Data Protection Act to issue an assessment notice. The aim of the power is to ensure that the regulator can access information necessary to its investigations. In the event of a data breach, the commissioner is heavily dependent on the information that the organisation provides. If it fails to share information—for example, because it lacks the capability to provide it—that can limit the commissioner’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation. Of course, if the organisation is able to provide the necessary information, it is not expected that the power would be used.”
“This is a slightly chunkier set of clauses and amendments, so I will not be as brief as in the last two debates. Clause 34 is a clarificatory amendment to the Information Commissioner’s powers in section 142 of the Data Protection Act to require information. Its purpose is to clarify the commissioner’s existing powers to put it beyond doubt that the commissioner can require specific documents as well as information when using the information notice power. Subsections (3) to (7) of the clause make consequential amendments to references to information notices elsewhere in the Data Protection Act.”
“Lady will be aware, like other regulators, the Information Commissioner is subject to the duty under the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act to exercise their functions “in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”, and, “targeted only at cases in which action is needed.” There will also be a right of appeal, which is consistent with the commissioner’s existing powers. On that basis, I hope that the hon. Lady is reassured. Question put agreed to . Clause 34 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 35 to 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 39 Complaints to controllers”
“I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for welcoming the vast majority of the provisions within these clauses. She did express some concern about the breadth of the powers available to the Information Commissioner, but I point out that they are subject to a number of safeguards defining how they can be used. The commissioner is required to publish how he will exercise his powers, and that will provide organisations with clarity on the circumstances in which they are to be used. As the hon.”
“Schedule 8 makes consequential amendments to the UK GDPR and the DPA relating to complaints by data subjects, which will ensure consistency across data protection legislation in relation to the changes to the complaints framework under clauses 39 and 40.”
“For example, that could be the case with a complaint that repeats a previous complaint made by the data subject to the commissioner. The power is in addition to the discretion that the commissioner can already exercise to “take appropriate steps” to respond to a complaint and investigate it “to the extent appropriate.” The clause requires the Information Commissioner to publish guidance about how it will respond to complaints and exercise its power to refuse to act on complaints. Finally, the clause also outlines the process for appeals if the commissioner refuses to act on a data protection complaint. Clause 41 introduces schedule 8, which contains miscellaneous minor and consequential amendments to the UK General Data Protection Regulation and the Data Protection Act relating to complaints by data subjects.”
“It will formalise best practice, and align with the standard procedures of other ombudsman services, which require complainants to seek to resolve an issue with the relevant organisation before escalation. The clause also introduces a regulation-making power for the Secretary of State to require controllers to notify the Information Commissioner of the number of complaints made to them in circumstances specified in the regulations. Clause 40 provides the Information Commissioner with a new power to refuse to act on certain data protection complaints if certain conditions are met, specifically if the complaint has not been made to the relevant controller; the controller has not finished handling the complaint and less than 45 days have elapsed since it was made; or the complaint is considered vexatious or excessive, as defined in the Bill.”
“These three clauses, together with schedule 8, streamline and clarify complaint routes for data subjects by making the respective rights and responsibilities of data controllers and data subjects clear in legislation. The measures will reduce the volume of premature complaints to the Information Commissioner, and give an opportunity to controllers to resolve complaints before they are escalated to the regulator. Clause 39 enables data subjects to complain to a data controller if they believe that there has been an infringement of their data protection rights, and creates a duty for data controllers to facilitate the making of complaints by taking appropriate steps, such as providing a complaints form. The requirement will encourage better conversations and more dialogue between data subjects and data controllers.”
“Clause 42 Consequential amendments to the EITSET Regulations Amendment made: 47, Clause 42, page 72, line 12, at end insert— “(7A) In paragraph 13 (modification of section 155 (penalty notices)), in sub-paragraph (3)(c), for “for “data subjects”” there were substituted “for the words from “data subjects” to the end”.”.— (Sir John Whittingdale.) This amendment inserts an amendment of Schedule 2 to the EITSET Regulations which is consequential on the amendment of section 155(3)(c) of the Data Protection Act 2018 by Schedule 4 to the Bill . Clause 42, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause 43 Protection of prohibitions, restrictions and data subject’s rights Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“Member for Barnsley East, we have debated previously the change in the threshold to “vexatious” and “excessive”, and we may continue to disagree on that matter. Question put and agreed to. Clause 39 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause s 40 and 41 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Schedule 8 agreed to.”