Christopher Stalford
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“In the United States of America, you have two schools of thought: the expansionists — the people who do not believe that the Founding Fathers should be taken at their word, or that the Constitution should be interpreted in the strict sense; and the originalists — those who do.”
“Let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />The key point in the brief is the "particular circumstances" of Northern Ireland. That is, and should be, central to everything that we examine.”
“I do not think that it ever got particularly bad-tempered, so I am disappointed at the tone that was struck in the opening of the debate and in subsequent contributions, but I am not going to lie down like a dog and take it. I am not going to take the rewriting of history.”
“There is one absolute right in law, and that is the right not to be tortured. That is an absolute right that is accepted as a universal right. How many people did the fellow travellers of the party opposite deny that human right to? So I am not going to take that from any Member opposite when it comes to rights.”
“I have stated my position and made it clear that I think that we have a strong human rights framework in Northern Ireland. We have two bodies, established in law, that are dedicated to the protection of human rights and equality. We are one of the most human rights- and fairness-compliant societies in the world. It is important.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. She and I served together for many years on Belfast City Council, where people from different and disparate backgrounds had to work together because nobody had a majority. That was just the nature of the place. She talked about respect and disrespect.”
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“I can talk only, I suppose, about my family experience and my family background when he talks about "the old world that they loved." I am quite proud of the fact that, on my mother's side, no one has voted for the Ulster Unionist Party since the foundation of the state. They were Northern Ireland Labour Party people. They were Northern Ireland Labour Party people because they saw the Ulster Unionist Party as the Tory Party. They were trade union people — working-class people who worked in the shipyard. They came from the bottom of the Newtownards Road, and they were very supportive of the Northern Ireland Labour Party. They would never have voted for what they saw as the Tories. I remember asking —”
“were used in reference to me, as a member of the Democratic Unionist Party.”
“Listening to the last Member speak, I was delighted to hear a strong and robust defence of referendums, the integrity of their outcomes and how they should be protected. I hope that he abides by that principle. <BR /> <BR />I listened to the person who moved the motion and noted that the words:”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. He refers to the new start on policing. He also referred to equality. Does he agree that it was hardly fair or decent that people were actively discriminated against on the basis of their religion when applying for a job?”
“I am happy to bow to the Member's obviously superior legal knowledge. Can the Member outline for us, in the context of what he has said, how the actual mechanism of vesting exists, if people's land and property can be vested by the state within the framework he has outlined?”
“This is a genuine question, as opposed to some of them.”
“When the time comes for the vote, if the House divides, that is when people will be able to see for themselves who is interested in fixing the problem and who is interested in showboating and political point-scoring. <BR /> <BR />I would like to finish with a quote from Dr Paisley:”
“I have said that that is not a situation of the Minister's creation or of any other party in the House bar one. If we had devolution, functioning devolution, Members would have had the opportunity to pore over the regulations. I am glad that even what we have had today, in accountability and discussion, has afforded the elected representatives of the people, at least those who decided to turn up and be in the Chamber, the opportunity to raise their issues and concerns and ask questions. I hope that the Minister is able to answer all the questions that have been asked by everyone who spoke in the debate thus far. <BR /> <BR />Are people interested in the solution? Are they interested in fixing the problem or are they more interested in showboating?”
“We will worry about figs — as long as there not an incentive for growing them. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that there will be an inquiry. I have said from the start that I want every scrap of paper — every email, every memo, every letter. I want everything relating to the matter put into the public domain for people to see and judge for themselves. It is not in the interests of anyone, whether you are DUP, Ulster Unionist, SDLP, Alliance, Sinn Féin or whatever if there is not full disclosure of everything relating to the scheme. I absolutely support that and want to see that, because it is not in the interests of any of us for the reputation of politics and those who engage in it to be damaged or maligned. <BR /> <BR />The lack of consultation on the measures has been raised during the debate.”
“I shall return to the subject in hand, Mr Deputy Speaker.”
“That speaks to me about the real agenda, which is not about fixing the problem. They were determined not to —”
“I apologise if the word "fig" is unparliamentary, I did not think that it was. They do not give a hoot about putting the problem right. If they did, they would be here, they would have come forward with ideas. Instead — ah, a trio has joined us for the first time in days. Welcome to the place that you were elected to serve. If they cared truthfully about the issue and about putting things right, they would be here offering suggestions. In fact, what we have seen from people serving in the Northern Ireland Executive is that any time a Minister — in this case, Mr Hamilton — put forward a suggestion and any time a public suggestion was put forward on potential ways of getting around the problem or solving the problem, what were the other half of the Executive doing? They were trying to undermine efforts to fix the problem.”
“Frankly, they do not give two figs, Mr Lyons. They do not give two figs about putting the situation right. They do not give that —”
“<BR /> <BR />I have been an Assembly Member for a short time, and this has been an inglorious end to a brief term of devolution. There is no point in seeking to deny that. Those of us who were elected here for the first time — there are some of us in all parties — did not envisage that it would come to this. However, the mark of a responsible politician and the mark of a sensible public representative is that, when a problem presents itself, they seek to find a solution. The fact that the Minister has found a solution, or has at least put forward ideas, is to be welcomed. It stands in stark contrast to others who serve in the Northern Ireland Executive but who, frankly, would rather give press conferences in the Great Hall than come to the House with positive solutions or positive ideas. That speaks to what their agenda really is.”
“I think that all Members agree that that is necessary. <BR /> <BR />I have reviewed the evidence that was presented to the Public Accounts Committee, and I urge all Members to study it in full, particularly the evidence concerning the role played by Mrs Arlene Foster the former First Minister. I urge all Members to read that. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that these measures have been brought forward, and I welcome the fact that, as someone else said during the debate, they have been described as defensible and viable proposals. It is important that whatever comes forward cannot be simply seen, as has been suggested, as a stopgap solution. It is important that we have defensible and viable solutions to the problem that confronts us.”
“That is not of the making of anyone in the House bar one party, which decided that it would rather crash the institutions than deal with the problem. That is that party's entitlement, but, if we are being elected to talks, one of the things that I want on the agenda is an end to the situation whereby one party walking away from this place can bring it crashing down. If people want substantive talks, I am all on for that because never again can the democratic institutions of Northern Ireland be threatened by one party walking away as it has. We are not, because of that, in the position to offer the fullest scrutiny of the Minister's proposals. That is regrettable. I would have welcomed the fullest possible scrutiny of his proposals. I welcome the fact that cost controls are being introduced into the scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have sat through most of this debate, and, to be fair, it has been tempered and reasonable. Members from all sides have made reasonable and tempered contributions, and it has been conducted in a spirit of trying to put the problem right and of trying to fix the situation. Indeed, if that had been the tone of the discussion throughout, we might well be closer to a solution to the problem. Alas, that is not the way that it has worked out. <BR /> <BR />Steps are needed to put the matter right and to improve this situation. That is why I welcome the proposals brought to the House by the Minister. Other Members commented, and I absolutely agree with them, that we are not in an ideal situation to provide a level of scrutiny or review of the Minister's proposals.”
“A school principal, maybe. This is a major issue that has adversely affected public confidence in the institutions of the Assembly and the Executive. It would be wrong to seek to deny or minimise the fact that that is the case. This is not a situation that any of us who ran in the Assembly election for the first time not seven months ago would have envisaged that we would have to deal with. It is not a situation that, I suspect, even some of the auld hands who have been in this place from the start ever envisaged that they would have to deal with. However, we are where we are. It is incumbent on us all, as responsible public representatives, where a problem has been identified, to do all in our power to ensure that the situation is corrected and put right.”
“I do not know what I did to deserve being called after that, but thank you very much, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, this is a major —”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. The Member will be aware that a business in my constituency, a car dealership that had one of these boilers, effectively had its reputation damaged without any accusation that it had done anything wrong but simply by virtue of the fact that it was part of this scheme. It is an important point that, in the fevered atmosphere that there has been around a lot of these issues, good people who have not done anything wrong have had their reputations damaged.”
“It did not ask her to; it told her to, for six months.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. She will be aware that, at the end of December, her party brought tabled a motion in the House. The motion that her party tabled was not about establishing a full public inquiry; it said that Mrs Foster was not fit to hold public office. You said that before we had even had the inquiry in the first place. You prejudged any outcome.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. There has been a consistent pattern over the last fortnight of Sinn Féin Members heckling other Members from a sedentary position. Can you please advise them that, if they want to participate in the functions of the House, they can list their name and come to speak like every other Member who was elected here?”
“I hope that the Member for South Down is not suggesting for one second that the Minister of Finance is some sort of vainglorious person who loves media attention.”
“I will. It has not been talking about RHI. It has been listing various nationalist and republican totems in the run-in to the election. We will face Sinn Féin on those issues, and we will prevail in the election.”
“Mr Eastwood said yesterday in the House that elections to talks, with probably no devolution, means direct rule Ministers making the decisions concerning Northern Ireland. I do not want that any more than any other person does, even people whom I disagreed with on the European referendum question. I do not want a Tory Government making decisions for my constituents any more than Members from the SDLP or other parties do, because I do not trust them to act in the best interests of my constituents any more than you do. It is profoundly sad that it has come to this, but I think that we need to be honest. The reason that we are at this point is that one party — Sinn Féin — did not like the outcome of the election, and it saw in RHI an opportunity to have a rerun. It has not been talking about —”
“They can point to positive steps that were taken by all the parties to improve the life of the people of Northern Ireland. That is where I believe in devolution. That is the value of devolution. The value of devolution lies in using those tools to improve the lot of our constituents. That is why I was in the Chamber for the question for urgent oral answer by Michelle O'Neill. I have to say that, as I listened to the Minister describing her plans for health and social care in Northern Ireland and for how we are going to move forward, I found myself wondering, "What planet is she on?", because we all know that we are now headed to elections and probably to talks, with no devolution.”
“I believe that Northern Ireland is a better place. I believe that it is in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland that we have devolved institutions that work for the people. I heard the criticism that was levelled by Mr Nesbitt: "10 long years". He seems to forget that, for nine and a half of those long years, his party was in government. Therefore, when you mount your high horse and lecture about "10 long years" of failed devolution, remember that, if it was a failure, sir, your party was party to it for nine and a half of those 10 years — 95% of the time. <BR /> <BR />I believe that all parties, whether the SDLP, the Ulster Unionists, the DUP, the Alliance Party or Sinn Féin, can look back over the past 10 years and point to achievements, on an individual level and a collective level, that were made during the period.”
“Some of the worst terrorist murderers in the history of this country, including people like Sean Kelly who bombed the Shankill Road, were released from prison without the decommissioning of IRA weaponry or even a commitment to support policing and the rule of law. When you mount your high horse and point your finger at others, sir, you should recall that there are three pointing back at you. Any unionist who knows the record of the way in which the Ulster Unionist Party behaved will not be lectured on our approach to dealing with republicans.”
“Northern Ireland, I believe, is a better place than it was 10 years ago. I think that we can be proud of the fact that our country is more at peace with itself than it was 10 years ago. I think that we can be proud of the investment that has been made in jobs, in local services and in improving public services. <BR /> <BR />I listened to the self-serving contribution from Mr Nesbitt earlier in the debate. Who could believe from his contribution that his party presided over a situation in which some of the worst terrorist murderers in the history of this country — I see he sighs. I think it is unfortunate that you do not like to be reminded of the record of your party.”
“Before I ask my question, I thank the Justice Minister for the job that she has done over the last eight months. It has been quite a lonely place down there on your own without a party behind you, and you have acquitted yourself very well in the job. You will probably not want that to appear on a leaflet somewhere. It would probably cost you votes, but anyway. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister agree with me that it is important that society sends out a message that drug dealing will not be tolerated and that, if we are exercising these powers again after the election, we should look at the introduction of minimum sentencing for those who are selling drugs, especially to teenagers?”
“I admire the Minister for Infrastructure's chutzpah. If you slam a Mercedes into a wall, do not blame the passengers for the state that it is in. It is important that people have confidence that these schemes are going to be expanded. In that vein, can the Minister tell us when the report will be brought back to the Department on the success, or otherwise, of the pilot scheme?”
“Are there any plans to expand the park-and-ride schemes in the area around Carryduff? Folks living in the centre of the town find it very frustrating that, on weekdays, congestion, especially from the direction of the Minister's constituency into Belfast, causes problems for people living in the town.”
“The Member is very welcome, and I hope that the good people of Belfast South will —”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. I fear that he is engaging in a rewriting of history, because when this was debated, the SDLP motion that was brought forward to exclude the First Minister from office, a device that hinged on a measure that was created for when people's proxies were suspected of engaging in paramilitary behaviour, that was prejudging any inquiry. The Member knows that. Now, post-19 December, the Member and others are pretending that they were engaging in fairness when the truth of the matter is that — if not necessarily in his case, certainly in others' — the intent was not fair: it was malicious.”
“Will the Member take a brief intervention?”
“Briefly, is that a commitment that, if a DUP Minister were to do that, you would support it?”
“Would the Member agree that, had a DUP Minister done so, Mr Agnew and others would have led the charge against it and said that such an inquiry was corrupted because a DUP Minister was doing it? You would not have been happy with anything that we would have said.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. The Member is right that people have nothing to fear from a legitimate public inquiry, but legitimate businesses conducting themselves in a legitimate way have plenty to fear when their name is being dragged across the airwaves.”
“— that the reputation of politics should be blackened.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. From my perspective, I want all this to be brought into the public domain and sorted, because it is in none of our interests —”
“As for accountability, it is absolutely vital that all the information — every email, every letter, every exchange — is brought into the public domain for everyone to see and to make a balanced assessment about who was responsible for what and how we got to this juncture. Thus far, that has not been the case, and we have had a drip feed of information from various sources. That is not conducive to the public good, nor is it conducive to informing people of what is and was actually going on.”
“That is, potentially, a simplistic assessment. What we are dealing with here is the granting of aid under a statutory scheme, which is not the same thing as a contract. I am hopeful that those issues can be overcome.”
“I have only a minute and a half left. <BR /> <BR />One of the issues raised by others about the package that has been outlined by the Minister relates to the breaking of contracts. This has been portrayed as a contract being broken.”
“<BR /> <BR />It ill behoves a party that cannot even bring itself to be in the Chamber — it defends its abstentionist policy at Westminster and now abstains from Stormont as well — and which, through its behaviour over welfare reform, cost the people of Northern Ireland £174 million in real money over a period of two years — not committed expenditure, but real money — to lecture any of the others.”
“I absolutely agree that the management and oversight of the scheme were fundamentally flawed. It is important that, in a public inquiry, we establish the facts around that. <BR /> <BR />I agree with what Dr Farry said about the need for a two-pillar approach going forward. One is mitigation: it is essential that the money that has been staked on the scheme be clawed back as much as possible. It is absolutely essential for that to happen, because it is committed expenditure that could be spent on other more valuable, more useful things.”
“Briefly, Andy, but let me finish my point. <BR /> <BR />They were doing so largely because they were motivated by a desire to score a political point and claim a political scalp. <BR />I am happy to give way to Mr Allen.”
“It asked for a public inquiry — that was agreed. The sole sticking point, from Sinn Féin's perspective, is that it demanded on a plate the head of the First Minister. From our perspective, that was unacceptable not only because the people of Northern Ireland, not seven months ago, elected her to the office but because, in the run-in to the debate on 19 December, it had become very apparent that those making the call for the First Minister to step aside were not doing so from a position of impartiality or from of a position of saying, "Oh, it is just like in the Civil Service when you are sent on gardening leave"; it is quite clear that those demanding that the First Minister step aside were doing so because —”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I take your point. I do not underestimate the seriousness of the situation at all. I do not underestimate the anger that is out there about the issue at all, because I speak to my constituents, and I know that people are very angry and want answers. <BR /> <BR />There have been various reactions to the situation as it has developed, as my friend Gordon Lyons from East Antrim referenced. The other partner in Government, Sinn Féin, asked for an inquiry, and we acceded to that because we wanted the truth to be established. I still want the truth to be established, and I still want there to be a full, open public inquiry into all these matters, because it does no good to any of us for the reputation of politics to be maligned. Sinn Féin offered us terms for an inquiry — those were agreed.”
“It is our responsibility as elected representatives to ensure the best outcomes for the people who send us here.”