Christopher Stalford
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“In the United States of America, you have two schools of thought: the expansionists — the people who do not believe that the Founding Fathers should be taken at their word, or that the Constitution should be interpreted in the strict sense; and the originalists — those who do.”
“Let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />The key point in the brief is the "particular circumstances" of Northern Ireland. That is, and should be, central to everything that we examine.”
“I do not think that it ever got particularly bad-tempered, so I am disappointed at the tone that was struck in the opening of the debate and in subsequent contributions, but I am not going to lie down like a dog and take it. I am not going to take the rewriting of history.”
“There is one absolute right in law, and that is the right not to be tortured. That is an absolute right that is accepted as a universal right. How many people did the fellow travellers of the party opposite deny that human right to? So I am not going to take that from any Member opposite when it comes to rights.”
“I have stated my position and made it clear that I think that we have a strong human rights framework in Northern Ireland. We have two bodies, established in law, that are dedicated to the protection of human rights and equality. We are one of the most human rights- and fairness-compliant societies in the world. It is important.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. She and I served together for many years on Belfast City Council, where people from different and disparate backgrounds had to work together because nobody had a majority. That was just the nature of the place. She talked about respect and disrespect.”
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“Promote means support and support means promote. The Member for Lagan Valley can dance on the head of a pin all he likes because the truth of the matter is that the Bill sponsor gave him nothing.”
“I rise to indicate my support for the amendments of my party colleagues and my opposition to clauses 4 and 5 standing part of the Bill. At the previous stage, when the measures were being debated — and I am loath to quote him again, but I will — the Member for Lagan Valley Mr Butler indicated that, "with certain tweaks", the Ulster Unionist Party would find the provisions of the Bill acceptable. I accept that the sponsor of the Bill certainly provided the tiniest of tweaks possible because the word "promote" was replaced with "support", but the dictionary definition of the word "promote" is to "support".”
“Does the Member agree that, as well as that, the practical application of clauses 4 and 5 over time would be to scythe through controlled and maintained primary schools? There will be a temptation for boards of governors to apply for integrated status as they attempt to save themselves from the inevitable axe that would be a consequence of the implementation of the clauses, and we may see many more of the false conversions that the Member referenced.”
“A news report today said that, by 2030, the Department of Education will have to find an additional 2,000 special educational needs places. In that context, what does it say about the party that is bringing forward the Bill that it prioritises one sector over all others?”
“The direct consequence of that measure would be that good primary schools and good secondary schools outside the integrated sector would be forced to close.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The consequence of the clauses that we are discussing is that every request for an integrated place must be met. Every single request must be facilitated.”
“I am grateful to my colleague for giving way. This morning, we will all have heard the announcement from the Department about the number of empty desks and the threat that that poses to many smaller schools, particularly in rural constituencies. In that context, does my colleague agree that, given the financial burdens that the Bill would place on the Department at this time, without the full review of education having being carried out, it would be very foolish indeed to go down that route?”
“I will return to the point about the interchangeability of the terms "promote" and "support". I was encouraged by the Member to seek out the dictionary definition of "promote". Would it surprise the Member that the dictionary definition of "promote" is to "support or actively encourage"? How can he say that there is a difference when there clearly is not?”
“I am sure that you are not one to hold a grudge. <BR /> <BR />In your contribution, you just used the words "promotion" and "support" as being interchangeable. Does that not cut to the heart of the fact that this is cosmetic tinkering around the edges?”
“I ask the Member to expand on what she has just said to Mr Carroll. In his remarks, Mr Carroll made it very clear — I absolutely respect his view — that he wishes to see an entirely secular education system. That was certainly my interpretation, and I am happy to —. Yes, OK. The Member has just said that she wishes to engage with that argument. To be clear, the Member is not in favour of a secular education system, is she?”
“On a point of order. Mr Deputy Speaker. Will you direct the Member that all comments should be referred through you rather than to individuals?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I listened to Mrs Dodds's contribution throughout. At no point did she challenge the Speaker or his authority.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Mr Carroll referenced the Catholic grammar school education that he had. As I said earlier, I went to Wellington College. If any person thinks that a school such as the one that I went to inculcates its pupils with a faith, I can say that that was not my experience of a non-maintained grammar school. Do not get the idea that there was a faith ethos in the school. My school had a scripture union, and children who wanted to go to that could do so. It is not, however, the case that people were inculcated with a sense of faith by the teaching that they got there. That was not my lived experience at all.”
“Is the practical outworking of the legislation not precisely that?”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. In a previous debate, Mr McNulty said:”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way, because we have just had a very telling admission. He asked a direct question, to which he got a direct answer, about ensuring that the ethos in schools is correct. Does he agree that it is fundamentally unfair to suggest that children who are educated outside the integrated sector are subjected to an ethos that is unhelpful, unproductive or unhealthy? Does he also agree that it is an insult to the education professionals in those sectors, who have devoted their entire professional careers to educating our children, to suggest that the ethos in those schools is in some way askew?”
“Can my friend identify to me what appropriate "tweaks" have been made since that earlier stage?”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. In our discussion on an earlier stage of the Bill, Mr Butler said:”
“I support our children being educated together. I support our taking the time to follow through on the process to which we all agreed in New Decade, New Approach and using that as a starting point for a positive new education system that serves all our children, tackles the problem of empty desks and deals with the compartmentalisation — if such a word exists — of our education into various sectors. Our children should be educated together, and we should encourage mutual understanding, respect and tolerance. The Bill, however, is not the route to achieve those worthy aims that, I believe, all of us have in common.”
“I acknowledge that and would never question a ruling from Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />The Office of the Legislative Counsel has raised concerns about the Bill as introduced and what it would mean should it be enacted. It has expressed strong views about how that risk should be handled, including that the starting point for some clauses should be to amend what was introduced rather than rewriting them, with a view to obtaining full support on the Floor. I regret that it has not been possible to achieve that full support. <BR /> <BR />I conclude by saying that I support the amendments moved by the Minister. I warn and caution colleagues that, while an awful lot of you are anxious not to be seen to oppose integration, it is not a contradiction to oppose the Bill and say that you support integration in education.”
“Mr O'Dowd therefore acknowledges the fundamental point that I made at the commencement of my remarks: the Bill advantages one sector over another.”
“who, I presume, is my colleague from North Antrim —”
“I will make some progress and then give way to the Member. <BR /> <BR />That is equally flawed, as was outlined earlier in the debate by the Member for Upper Bann, Mrs Dodds. You cannot have a situation where legal advice lands with a Committee on a Wednesday and a decision is required on the Thursday. <BR /> <BR />The definition that has been produced by the Office of the Legislative Counsel is a better one. It allows for the evolution and development of the term "integrated" at a practical level, and it allows a modicum of control to rest with bodies such as NICIE. <BR /> <BR />I want to draw Members back to some of the comments that were made during the debate at an earlier stage of the legislation. I refer to the other Member for Upper Bann, Mr O'Dowd. In a previous debate, he said:”
“It should be quite apparent, Mr Lyttle, that I have no intention of giving way to you. Take the hint, man. <BR /> <BR />It is quite apparent that the consultation process that has led to this point has been fundamentally flawed. You cannot have a consultation where some of the findings are six years out of date. That is not a proper consultation. As for the Committee consultation, that is equally flawed, as has been outlined earlier in the debate.”
“Earlier in the debate, some criticism — I cannot remember from whom — was levelled in that school's direction because it operates a policy of academic streaming, but that is a different argument for a different day. <BR /> <BR />One of the problems in getting us to this point —”
“No. <BR /> <BR />That is a mistake. We should allow that review to runs its course and then take that as our starting point. I am opposed to the measures being outlined because, as I have said before and still believe, it prioritises one specific sector above all others. <BR /> <BR />Lots of people have talked about their personal experience of education. I was educated in Nettlefield Primary School at the bottom of the Woodstock Road and then at Wellington College in Belfast, and I had a very good experience there, but I am also a father, and my eldest child has just completed the transfer process. We are looking at school options and going through the various things, and she is actively considering an integrated school because it is a good school. I am referring to Lagan College, which is a good school that delivers good education.”
“I stand for the full implementation of all agreements — not piecemeal, but the full implementation of all agreements. However, let us not go down that route today. <BR /> <BR />Indeed, the Bill sponsor's party has been vociferous in claiming the credit for ensuring that the independent review was included in the agreement that allowed the restoration of devolution. Their having claimed the credit for an independent review, they now seek to pre-empt its outcome.”
“There are historical reasons why we are in the position that we are in today, and I do not intend to rehearse those arguments here. However, all parties that signed up to New Decade, New Approach agreed to — it was certainly my belief at the time — a Bengoa-style review of how we deliver education. I find it inconceivable that such a review would not come forward with a recommendation —”
“Can I continue? Thank you. <BR /> <BR />The consequence of this Bill will be to elevate one sector over others in delivering the education of our children. The Minister has already outlined why this is pre-emptive and unnecessary. Devolution was restored in Northern Ireland, two years ago now, on the basis of New Decade, New Approach. New Decade, New Approach committed all of us to an independent review. Indeed, I believe that I am on the record of the House — if I am not, I am about to put myself on the record of it — saying that I believe that, in education, we actually need to have a Bengoa-style review. If we were to sit down today and design from scratch an education system for Northern Ireland, we would not arrive at the position where we are today.”
“Well, the Member can chunter from a sedentary position. The Member once tried to tell the House that he was against academic selection but also pro grammar school. Good luck squaring that circle. The Member can chunter all he likes. The fact of the matter is that the consequence of this Bill will be —”
“Members arguing in favour of it can seek to assuage their own consciences or their constituents who choose to educate their children in the non-integrated sectors by saying, "This isn't an implied criticism of the controlled sector or the Catholic maintained sector —”
“From the outset, I say that, much like Mr Butler, I believe that ultimately the goal that we should all be facing toward is the development of a single education system for all children in Northern Ireland. I fundamentally believe that our children should be educated together in an atmosphere that respects culture, tradition and identity, in which we can all celebrate who we are and grow together to create a shared and peaceful society. <BR /> <BR />Unfortunately, I do not think that this Bill will help us to achieve that objective, because the net consequence of it will be to raise the status of one sector of education delivery in this country, to the active detriment of other sectors.”
“The people who tabled the motion know, however — at least, they should have known before they authored it — that classroom windows would have to remain open to allow a HEPA filtration system to work. Going to the media and on radio to try to sell to people nonsense, as has been attempted over the last few days, about HEPA filters is simply irresponsible. <BR /> <BR />I finish by thanking teachers, groundskeepers, cleaners and the lollipop ladies and men who keep our schools open. I welcome the new-found commitment from the parties opposite, who could not get schools closed quickly enough, to keeping schools open. I hope that failure to implement these measures is not, on their part, a precursor to demanding the closure of our schools at some point in the future.”
“No. <BR /> <BR />It is the height of irresponsibility to pass motions and then say, "It is the Minister's responsibility to find out how much our flights of fancy are going to cost the Department", yet that is precisely what is being expected and what they are playing at today. Over the last few days, we have witnessed nothing more than rank showboating and political posturing from the SDLP and Sinn Féin. It is particularly ironic that, in the context of a Sinn Féin Finance Minister having imposed cuts on the Department of Education, demands are being made of that Department to find additional funds. It is just outrageous. <BR /> <BR />HEPA ventilation systems have been held up to the public as some sort of panacea for the outrageous problem and situation of children being in cold classrooms.”
“I will be brief. As I said earlier, not one person who has spoken in favour of the motion has indicated to us what the budgetary allocation would be. It is the height of irresponsibility —”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. I have sat through the entirety of the debate. Has he also noticed that one thing that has been absent from the contributions of all those who have argued in favour of the motion is any notion of how much this will cost the Department should it become policy?”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. Does she appreciate that the idea that the Department of Education is stuffed full of qualified teachers who can simply be moved from their desk job is based on logic that would suggest that DAERA must be stuffed full of farmers or that the Department for Infrastructure must be stuffed full of bus drivers? There is absolutely no proof that there is this vast supply of teachers in the Department of Education who could be moved from their desk and into schools.”
“For the second time, Mr Speaker, will you remind Members opposite that remarks are to be directed through the Chair?”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. Unlike the previous contribution, his is not full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. If we are to discuss the installation of HEPA filters in schools, it is important that we have the accurate figures in front of us. The basic cost is £1,100 per filter plus a filter replacement of £300 — these are conservative estimates — and it is suggested by some experts that as many as three filters per classroom will be necessary. So, when people say on the radio that the cost is £140 per unit, they are talking absolute nonsense.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. He refers to cynicism. Does he agree that it is the very definition of cynicism to convey the message to parents that high-efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filters will prevent the opening of windows in classrooms? That is blatantly not the case, and those who peddle that myth should withdraw it.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way very briefly. <BR /> <BR />Is the Member aware that, this month, the Sinn Féin Finance Minister proposed a 2% cut to the Education budget for 2022-25? In that context, how can he stand on his feet and demand more funding?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you direct the Member that all remarks should be directed through yourself?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Speaking as the father of four children under 11, I can assure you that there will be nothing peaceful about my Christmas”
“Thank you. Ms Bailey has touched on exactly the point that I was going to make. The key point is co-design. If schools, businesses, local communities and groups feel that they are actively involved in the design of the project, they will take a sense of ownership to an extent that would not have been the case otherwise.”
“It is quite funny that, when there is a discussion about infrastructure, SDLP MLAs ask when the Finance Minister will give the Infrastructure Minister more money; Sinn Féin MLAs ask when the Infrastructure Minister will concentrate on the savings that need to be made. I will not do that, and I am sure that we will not do that in this discussion. I hope that my remarks have kick-started the conversation and that other Members here can participate in it.”
“Let us identify areas for improvement and take on board the lessons that have been learned in the east and west about the rapid transit system that is operating there. I am sure that lessons can be learned. I am sure that there are ways in which the south and the north of the city can apply those lessons to deliver a rapid transit system that works for all our people. In doing so, we can achieve our goals of improving the environment and tackling the threat of global warming and climate change. We can see this in the much wider context of improving the overall transportation infrastructure in the constituency.”
“As I said, I previously secured time to raise this issue, and that came out of conversations that I had had with local businesses and some of the community in and around Ballynafeigh. It is important that this is a friendly conversation amongst people who have shared policy objectives, including the Minister, and that we can kick-start that debate and that discussion. I have outlined just some of the small areas of concern that I have, and I hope that the Minister will take an assurance from me that I will be her friend on this. <BR /> <BR />Let us see whether all parties can come together in pursuing a shared objective. Let us learn the lessons from east and west Belfast, where Belfast Rapid Transit has been in place for some time.”
“I am talking about improving walkways and the provision of spaces for people to cycle and developing greenways. My constituency has the biggest urban forest in Europe. Belvoir Forest is a massive facility that could be used to develop that wider policy context. Everyone recognises that we need to think globally and act locally. That is certainly the case when it comes to the provision of transport infrastructure in South Belfast.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the context of COP26 and everything that has just happened, there has been a public focus, and the public has focused its imagination, on the real challenges that we face in producing cleaner, greener living spaces; tackling the threat of climate change; and making a contribution to reducing our reliance on private cars. I do not think that there is any dispute among us about that. One of the issues with, first, the route and, secondly, simply putting in a transit line, for want of a better expression, is that the contribution that it can make to those overall aims that I have mentioned will be limited. While everybody might be looking at the shiny thing — the route that Belfast Rapid Transit will take — there is a much wider policy context. I am sure that the Minister agrees with me on that.”
“Take, for example, the Centra, which is up and across the road from Cooke Centenary Presbyterian Church. When the Centra is getting a big delivery, a lorry will be parked outside the store. The reason for that is simple: there is no rear access for delivery vehicles to almost any premises on that block, from the former Ormeau bakery up to the Orange hall. There is no rear vehicular access for deliveries. That is a major concern for many of the businesses. It has been raised with me as, I am sure, it has with lots of other representatives from the constituency.”