Christopher Stalford
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“In the United States of America, you have two schools of thought: the expansionists — the people who do not believe that the Founding Fathers should be taken at their word, or that the Constitution should be interpreted in the strict sense; and the originalists — those who do.”
“Let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />The key point in the brief is the "particular circumstances" of Northern Ireland. That is, and should be, central to everything that we examine.”
“I do not think that it ever got particularly bad-tempered, so I am disappointed at the tone that was struck in the opening of the debate and in subsequent contributions, but I am not going to lie down like a dog and take it. I am not going to take the rewriting of history.”
“There is one absolute right in law, and that is the right not to be tortured. That is an absolute right that is accepted as a universal right. How many people did the fellow travellers of the party opposite deny that human right to? So I am not going to take that from any Member opposite when it comes to rights.”
“I have stated my position and made it clear that I think that we have a strong human rights framework in Northern Ireland. We have two bodies, established in law, that are dedicated to the protection of human rights and equality. We are one of the most human rights- and fairness-compliant societies in the world. It is important.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. She and I served together for many years on Belfast City Council, where people from different and disparate backgrounds had to work together because nobody had a majority. That was just the nature of the place. She talked about respect and disrespect.”
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“I appreciate the Member giving way. You talked about being against anything European. Those rights existed long before we were in the European Union; there is no logic in saying that they will not exist after we leave the European Union.”
“I am glad to do so, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker.”
“Some people were advocating that a bill of rights should be used as a means of reversing the trade union reforms that went through in the 1980s, for example. Well, I am sorry, but there is no fundamental human right to secondary picketing. An attempt was made to push through the Bill of Rights Forum a fundamental human right to a home of your choice. Now, we obviously have a fundamental responsibility to ensure that any citizen who needs to be housed is housed, but this is where we are in danger of going down a perilous path. <BR /> <BR />We have to stick to the fundamentals and understand what the fundamentals are. I want to finish with a quote from the academic Philip Alston:”
“<BR /> <BR />The right to a fair trial in a free society is, of course, fundamental, and then there is freedom of speech; freedom of conscience, thought and religion; and freedom of movement within the state in which you reside, in order to guard against the establishment of a Gulag system such as operated in Russia. Those are fundamental rights, and a belief in them is shared by a huge majority of Members throughout the House. <BR /> <BR />Reference was made to the Bill of Rights Forum. I served on it some time ago when it was producing its report, and the entire process was farcical. It was farcical because special interest groups were using the bill of rights process as a Trojan Horse to make fundamental rights out of things that are not fundamental rights.”
“<BR /> <BR />I mentioned earlier in the debate one thing of which I am very proud. I was a back-room boy in DUP headquarters at the time, but I had a role in helping the Lord Morrow with the human trafficking Bill. We can be proud of that legislation, which is designed to tackle modern slavery — one of the most fundamental rights violations that goes on throughout the world. It is ironic that one of the parties proposing an amendment to this motion was opposed to it, and another party that champions itself as a guardian of people's rights was also against it.”
“Arising from that was an understanding of what I will call "fundamental rights". It is not necessary to have action plans for all parties to allow those fundamental rights to inform, guide and direct the things that they do. <BR /> <BR />What are those fundamental rights? The first fundamental right that I believe in is the right to life. Unlike some colleagues in my party and, I suspect, around the Chamber, I am consistently pro-life. I am opposed to the death penalty and to the introduction of anything like the Abortion Act 1967 to Northern Ireland. I carry my pro-life ethic with me, and it informs, guides and directs the things that I believe in. Freedom from torture is also a fundamental right, and we must always guard against the power of the state over the citizen to impose inhuman constrictions or torture on them.”
“I thank all Members thus far for their contribution to the debate, which has been measured and reasonable. <BR /> <BR />I am proud of the role that our country has played in shaping the world's understanding of human rights, going back all the way to Magna Carta, where the power of the executive over the citizen was checked for the very first time, even before the concept of a citizen existed, all the way to the Bill of Rights of 1689, when the power of the monarch was curtailed. We all know the background to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the European conventions and so on. The victorious allies in the Second World War had the opportunity to put the powers that were responsible for so much human suffering on trial to give account of their actions and the rights that they removed from other people.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. He mentioned his connection to the Council of Europe. He will be aware that Human Rights Watch criticised the Council of Europe in 2014 for standing by while the regime in Azerbaijan cracked down on dissidents and opposition politicians. I assume that he took the opportunity, through the Council of Europe, to condemn that indecision.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Several Members talked about how the Assembly lags behind in human rights, but one area where the Northern Ireland Assembly led was in the introduction of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation Act. Slavery is a growing problem in human rights violations. It is to this House's credit that it took a lead in tackling modern slavery.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. One of the most fundamental human rights is freedom of speech and the freedom to express non-violent political thought. Does the Member agree with me that it is absolutely wrong that people from outside the United Kingdom can come here to preach hate and incite violence on our streets and that, because of the Human Rights Act, we are absolutely powerless? Due to the fundamental right of those people to a family life, the Government were hamstrung in their efforts to put them out of this country.”
“Will the First Minister provide the House with an assessment of the level of cooperation that exists between the Executive and the Government of the Republic of Ireland? Obviously, once we leave the European Union, cooperation to the mutual benefit of the people of Northern Ireland and the Republic should continue.”
“Thank you. I agree with you about how it is unfair. Some people seem to think that Belfast consists of east Belfast and west Belfast. In that vein, can she have a word with the Finance Minister about getting me a rates relief area for Sandy Row and Donegall Road?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. He says that the right-to-buy scheme denies the most vulnerable people a roof over their head. How can that be when the people who are buying under the scheme are those who occupy the house? Therefore, it is the roof over their head that they are purchasing.”
“I do not believe in climbing to the top of the ladder and then kicking it away from the communities that I come from.”
“It is for the same reason that I support grammar schools: I do not believe in climbing to the top of the ladder and then kicking it —”
“I welcome the fact that the Government are committed to building more social homes than have ever been built before. It is important that we do that because the housing problems in Northern Ireland will not be solved by complete right to buy or complete state control; we will have to use various prongs in this battle. I welcome the fact that we will build more social homes and that money is being invested there. I do not think, however, that the solution to our very real housing problems can be achieved by us, as politicians at Stormont, saying to people, "You do not have the right to avail yourself of schemes and systems like right to buy that many of us availed ourselves of or many of our parents availed themselves of".”
“"Class" is the word that has not been talked about in the debate. I always enjoy listening to middle-class politicians telling me that grammar schools are a bad thing. I always enjoy middle-class politicians telling me that working-class people should not avail themselves of the right to buy and should not have the opportunity to purchase their home. It is easy to say things like that when you possess the resources, whether through inherited wealth or other ways, to travel through life comfortably. People should be afforded the opportunity. When people purchase their home, it is a really empowering experience that brings stability and strength not only to their family but to the wider community. <BR /> <BR />I said at the start that I recognised the importance and value of social housing.”
“As I look around the Chamber, I suspect there are very few people here who are not fortunate enough to own their home.”
“Your solution and the solution offered to us by big-state parties like the Green Party is that people should live their life as clients of the state. The state should provide your home. The state should provide and control every aspect of your life, and at the end of your life — after a lifetime of paying rent — what is there for your children to inherit but the sticks of furniture in your house? <BR /> <BR />Of course, people were hurt by the collapse of the housing market, but people can be relied on to make decisions for themselves. They do not need us to live their life for them. They do not need us to tell them how to spend their money. You are absolutely right that investing in property, like investing in anything else, brings risk.”
“The right-to-buy scheme tapped into the profound yearning in the working-class community that I come from for people to own their home. Why did the people want to own their own home? Well, to have an asset increases their freedom, their security and their stability. It increases their wealth in the longer term — wealth is not a bad word. At the end of your life, it is an asset that you can pass on to your children to help make their life better and more comfortable. I believe strongly in the right-to-buy scheme. The genesis of —”
“My background has made me very appreciative of the value of good social housing. I was born in Annadale Flats in Ballynafeigh and reared at the bottom of the Ravenhill Road in Carrington Street in a Housing Executive property that my parents were fortunate enough to buy. They availed themselves of the right-to-buy scheme, and, just as I am the first person in my family to get to university, they were the first people in our family to own their home. <BR /> <BR />I believe in a property-owning democracy, because it is one in which everyone can participate in the economic life of the nation. People have the right and should have the security that comes from owning their own home. I think it was Kenny Guinn, the Governor of Nevada, who said:”
“In relation to Scotland, does the Member agree and recognise that the actions of the Scottish Government in relation to the right to buy were nothing more than vicious party politics because the SNP was so imbued with hatred for the person who introduced the scheme in the first place?”
“People talk about the loss of 120,000 social housing units, but the reality is that they have been bought by people who live in them, by and large. Instead of someone paying rent all their days and having nothing but the furniture in the house to show for it, at the end, when they have paid their mortgage, they own an asset.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. The Member knows that there are nearly 90,000 social housing units under the control of government. Last year, the total sold was 400, and there is a wide range of reasons for that. The idea that the right-to-buy scheme is taking a scythe through our social housing stock is not borne out by the figures.”
“I am happy to apologise to Mr McGrath, Principal Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I agree that it is right that we should have the review. Does the Member agree with me that, if people say that we should not go into a review with predetermined outcomes, they should not then stand up and say that certain areas should be off limits?”
“I appreciate my colleague giving way; Cowardy Custard MLA for South Down would not. Does she agree with me that —”
“Does the Member agree that, if Ministers had such power, the Opposition would be the first to decry it?”
“— in the context of the reform of the institutions that has taken place here, it is timely and right that we should look at this now.”
“I do not think that anywhere should be off limits, and I make no apology for saying that. We have seen, in some areas, arm's-length bodies, which are supposed to exist as a function of delivery of priorities, take upon themselves an entirely different character from that which they were established for. For example, we arrived at a situation some time ago where a significant proportion of the Arts Council's advertising budget, which was supposed to be used for advertising the events that it runs, was instead used to attack its sponsor Department because of budget cuts. That is not the correct and proper use of taxpayers' money by an arm's-length body. It cannot be right that money that comes from a sponsor Department should be deployed in that way. That is why I think —”
“I will give way to Mr Allister in one second, and then I will give way to Mr Attwood. Arm's-length bodies exercise enormous power, and it is right that we should review how they function and whether or not some of them are still fit for purpose.”
“If arm's-length bodies are charged with delivering services to the people of Northern Ireland, they should look like the society that they are supposed to serve.”
“I absolutely agree. This is one of the issues that I have raised consistently in the Committee for the Executive Office. Arm's-length bodies and quangocracy or quangoland are not reflective of society in all sorts of ways. Mr Attwood raised the issue of gender, and I acknowledge that that is the case, but there are all sorts of other ways in which they are not reflective. They are not reflective of age, and they are certainly not reflective of class. In fact, I will go so far as to say that my constituency is probably the most over-represented constituency in terms of the population of quangoland of all the constituencies, with the possible exception of North Down. That is not right.”
“Effectively, and in real terms, Northern Ireland was governed as a sort of colony where a Secretary of State acted like a proconsul, appointing people to arm's-length bodies that —”
“In the late 1960s and the 1970s, local government was accused of not being fit to be trusted with power, so that power was moved from local government into the hands of quangos.”
“We are dealing with a new reality in Northern Ireland. Over the past year and a half or so, the number of Departments has been reduced, and the number of Assembly Members will be reduced at the end of this Assembly term. The institutions that were established in 1998 have undergone radical change. We now have an Opposition. Nowhere should be immune from change and reform in public life and the public sphere in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />It is sad to hear Mr Attwood become the conservative defender of the establishment in his contribution. The fact of the matter is that the motion calls for a fundamental review to ensure the best delivery for the people whom we are sent here to represent. <BR /> <BR />We know what created the situation of why there is so much power in the hands of quangos and arm's-length bodies.”
“I am determined to entice Eamonn McCann into the voting booth with me at least once, so I will start with a quotation from Tony Benn. He said that the questions that all powerful people should be asked are:”
“Does the Member think that it is bizarre to find a party with the word "democratic" in its name advocating rule by experts and technocrats, rather than rule by the elected representatives of the people?”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. He will be aware that, in the Executive Office Committee, I have consistently raised the issue of the class background of people who are appointed to public bodies because there is a tendency for a small self-perpetuating group of people to occupy quango-land.”
“Thank you. If law, order and justice are fundamental to what caused the conflict in Northern Ireland and should be off limits, why did the SDLP support the devolution of those powers to the Assembly?”
“I welcome the Minister's statement, because it provides much-needed clarity. This issue has been running for a long time in local government. The Minister will be aware that different councils were at different levels of preparedness for the planned transfer of powers. Under the announcement that has been made, is there scope for tailored cooperation going forward between different councils that were at different levels of preparedness to deliver, as the Minister said, the services all our people want?”
“I welcome what the Minister said about providing citizens with an itemised receipt for their rates and the other taxes that they pay, as I have raised that issue with him. Does he agree that it is important that people know and can see for themselves on a piece of paper precisely how the amount that they are billed in their rates is calculated in order that they get a full understanding of, for example, why in some areas their rates have gone up by significant sums?”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker, you have just said that the Member has used a point of order to put his concerns on the record. Is there an issue about the deliberate abuse of points of order by Members who, after they have spoken and had their say, deploy them to get a second bite of the cherry, including, not least, a Deputy Speaker of the House?”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker —”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for the statement. His colleagues in the Republic have given assurances of continued cooperation for the mutual benefit of the people who live in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Will he assure the House that this will continue once the United Kingdom leaves the European Union, as he outlined in the case of the north-west?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. We have had a reasonable debate for a reasonable length of time. Does the Member agree with me that it is totally disappointing and wrong that the Chairman of the Committee, the co-leader of the Opposition, could not find it within himself to be present for a debate on poverty?”
“I came into politics to make life better for people; I believe that that is the case for all Members around here. I believe that we are all motivated by a desire to do good for our constituents, make their lives better and improve their standing. It is for that reason and that reason alone that I am content to move the amendment.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is important to note that, between 2013 and 2015, the Government have enabled over 9,000 people to avail themselves of £30 million of benefits that otherwise would not have gone to them through the benefit uptake team that the Government operate. That is important. Members from all parties will have constituents who come to them unaware of the benefits that they are entitled to. Not only does that money help the families who are entitled to it but it helps the economy because they spend the money in local shops and boost it in that way. It is right that government helps people to access money to which they are entitled. <BR /> <BR />Nobody in the House is content that any of our citizens, least of all the children or pensioners of Northern Ireland, should be left in poverty.”
“<BR /> <BR />The previous contributor mentioned the need for a multifaceted approach to tackling poverty, and I absolutely agree. That is why it is important that, going forward, the Government continue to have a strong focus on job creation. Job creation is one prong in the battle to defeat poverty. The 'Households Below Average Income' report showed that the risk of working-age adults being in relative poverty is starkly higher for those not in work. Those not in work have a 59% chance as against a 13% chance of falling into poverty. Obviously, one of the focuses going forward has to be on job creation and transforming the Northern Ireland economy into an outward-looking economy that can attract jobs and investment for all our people to enjoy and benefit from, regardless of their background, as the motion states.”
“It is not appropriate to compare Northern Ireland poverty figures with those for the rest of the UK on a before-housing-cost basis, due to the different ways in which water charges are collected in Northern Ireland. The Members who tabled the motion understand that, and I hope that they will reflect on it. <BR /> <BR />Fuel poverty is an enormous problem: 42% of households live in fuel poverty. That is one of the areas that I would like the Government to focus on when the PFG is published. It cannot be right in this day and age that pensioners who have worked all their life, paid their National Insurance and made a contribution to society should be forced into a position in which they have to choose between eating or heating their home. That is wrong in an advanced industrialised society such as the United Kingdom.”
“I have been a public representative since 2005. I do not underestimate for one second the scale of the problem. I know, for example, as a representative of South Belfast — other representatives of South Belfast can attest to this — that, in our constituency, there are islands of deprivation surrounded by seas of plenty. They can sometimes be missed. Taughmonagh, for example, is included in the Upper Malone ward when it comes to the Noble indices of multiple deprivation. There are real problems in all our communities, and I believe that everyone in the House, whether in government or in opposition, is determined to tackle them. <BR /> <BR />It is important that the figures are accurate.”