Christopher Stalford
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“In the United States of America, you have two schools of thought: the expansionists — the people who do not believe that the Founding Fathers should be taken at their word, or that the Constitution should be interpreted in the strict sense; and the originalists — those who do.”
“Let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />The key point in the brief is the "particular circumstances" of Northern Ireland. That is, and should be, central to everything that we examine.”
“I do not think that it ever got particularly bad-tempered, so I am disappointed at the tone that was struck in the opening of the debate and in subsequent contributions, but I am not going to lie down like a dog and take it. I am not going to take the rewriting of history.”
“There is one absolute right in law, and that is the right not to be tortured. That is an absolute right that is accepted as a universal right. How many people did the fellow travellers of the party opposite deny that human right to? So I am not going to take that from any Member opposite when it comes to rights.”
“I have stated my position and made it clear that I think that we have a strong human rights framework in Northern Ireland. We have two bodies, established in law, that are dedicated to the protection of human rights and equality. We are one of the most human rights- and fairness-compliant societies in the world. It is important.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. She and I served together for many years on Belfast City Council, where people from different and disparate backgrounds had to work together because nobody had a majority. That was just the nature of the place. She talked about respect and disrespect.”
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“Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sir, as a fellow citizen of Belfast, you will know that, over the past 20 or 30 years or so, people who traditionally would never have wanted to come to our city to hold events have decided so to do. The first major event that I can recall was the Tall Ships in 1991, and that sent a very positive message that Belfast was starting to turn a corner and that people wanted to come to our city to hold major events. <BR /> <BR />Belfast is now a centre for great events, and one event that has taken place recently is Belsonic. I rise to express concern, on behalf of my constituents who live in the lower Ravenhill and Ballynafeigh parts of the town, in relation to the management of Belsonic.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that we are through the looking glass when it comes to appointments and what have you, given that we live in a country where you are excluded from being a member of local council if you are bankrupt, but you can sit on the Policing Board if you have committed serious terrorist criminal offences?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Earlier in the debate, reference was made to a Wikipedia article. I have now viewed the article in question, and the name of Mr Nigel Dodds appears nowhere in it. Will the lady withdraw the claim that she made?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am pretty certain that Mrs Kelly has made claims about Mr Nigel Dodds that are untrue. When Hansard is published, and if it is shown that those claims are untrue, will it be a requirement for her to return to the Chamber and apologise for them?”
“You can come back to that. In this country, the offence has to be pretty serious for a person to be handed a sentence and go to prison for five years or more. I am sure that the Member accepts that.”
“With the greatest respect, we are not talking about the United States of America.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, and I absolutely accept his bona fides. The party that he is a member of has always believed in non-violence and peaceful and democratic means, and I accept that. He and I are both privileged to represent the constituency of South Belfast in this place. Does he appreciate that, if he is walking through the Lobbies today with Sinn Féin, he is walking through the Lobbies with a party that has yet to condemn the murder of a former Member of Parliament for the constituency that he and I are both privileged to represent and the murder of a former Member here?”
“The Member referred to this earlier in the debate: far from contrition, far from apology, there is glorying in past deeds committed for the "freedom struggle". We have seen that in Maze victory tours, anniversary celebrations and all that sort of stuff. It is not a question of remaining silent on the past or arguing, "We drew a line under this in 1998". He glories in it.”
“I am grateful to my colleague for giving way. I will perhaps quote to her — I will not name the person, obviously — a very senior police officer who, on one occasion, said to me that, in order to get republicans on board, the pendulum had swung too far in one direction. Does she agree that, since 1998, that has been the pervading culture that has existed in London, Dublin and the Northern Ireland Office? Basically, no matter how outrageous the behaviour of the party opposite, ultimately it has to be kept on board, and that is why we end up in situations like this.”
“Perhaps I will be less elegant than Mr Wells. Having read into the record the Pledge of Office, what part of organising events celebrating the Maze escape or hanging onto the front of a PSNI Land Rover does the Member believe conforms to that statement, that Pledge of Office, in the particular case of Mr Kelly?”
“They have been prepared to see all sorts of appointments made. They have therefore had to endure repeated slaps in the face. The Bill gives us an opportunity to do something right and say, "Do you know what? We actually have some standards".”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to finish by saying that the arguments will no doubt be thrashed out in the remainder of this debate. Some of them were well rehearsed in 2013. I go back to my introductory remark: there are thousands of people who have been prepared to tolerate an awful lot since 1998. They have been prepared to see those who murdered their loved ones get out of prison. They have been prepared to see them elected.”
“There is a wider situation here in Northern Ireland in that enormous powers are exercised in this country by bodies that have very little democratic accountability or scrutiny, and those powers are exercised, as far as I can see, by a group of about 150 people who move from quango to quango to quango to quango. The general public appointments process, including to other public bodies, does fall within the scope of this Bill and is something that we need to take a closer look at, because power over millions upon millions of pounds and enormous power over people's everyday lives is being exercised by bodies that are not democratically accountable, and that is going on because we are content to allow it to go on. I know that there has been talk of this before, but I hope that this actually does come to something.”
“There was one commitment that I was very determined to put into 'New Decade, New Approach', and, in different drafts, it kept changing and coming back. One of the commitments in 'New Decade, New Approach' is:”
“I am sure that any of us who served on local government knows that PCSPs have extremely limited powers and responsibilities and an extremely limited and very minor role in the delivery of policing in the community. You cannot be appointed to a PCSP if you have criminal convictions, but that does not matter when it comes to the people who can appoint you via the Policing Board. Before I was elected here, I worked for four Policing Board members, and I went through the process of PCSP appointments. Those appointments are made by the Policing Board. We have people on the Policing Board who would not be allowed access to a school board of governors or to a PCSP, but they are making appointments. Clearly, there is something wrong with a situation like that. <BR /> <BR />There is a wider issue at stake.”
“I serve on the board of governors of the primary school that my children attend, Braniel Primary School. I had never served on a board of governors in my own constituency; it is simply because that school is near where I live and my children go there. I was asked if I would consider going on the board, and I said that I would. Before I was appointed to the board of governors, an Access NI check had to be carried out. We have people being appointed to really powerful organisations around this country, but an Access NI check would not tell you what they have done. Their public record tells you what they have done. In some cases, they openly gloat and boast about what they have done. <BR /> <BR />We also have the bizarre situation now, as Mr Allister said, with PCSPs.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is clear to me that there are at least 38 votes for the Bill, and there are probably a similar number against it, but there is a group of people sitting in the middle who I have not yet heard declare where they are going on this issue. They have to make up their minds, and I hope that they decide that the principles that were right in 2013 in relation to spads are right again in 2021 in relation to public appointments. <BR /> <BR />Clause 4 provides a right of appeal to the High Court on the grounds that the decisions made by the panel were not reasonable. <BR /> <BR />Clause 5 defines "serious criminal conviction" as one for which a sentence of more than five years' imprisonment or more, or another specified sentence, was imposed. I raised this issue earlier.”
“and assisted in the investigation of the offence, and also — and this is where we have been so lacking in this country — the views of victims or family members. <BR /> <BR />I referenced earlier that I believe very strongly that the reason why Ann's law was passed was because of Ann, because she had the courage to get up into the face of politicians and challenge them about things that we simply take for granted and as run-of-the-mill. She pointed out that the emperor had no clothes, and other people who might have been prepared to just let such a situation slide or let it continue were challenged to do the right thing.”
“The panel has specific responsibilities to take account of:”
“<BR /> <BR />When people look on and see appointments being made, I do think that they feel — and I believe — that it is blatant and about rubbing people's nose in it. It is almost a mentality of, "We are the masters now. We are in charge now, and I don't care how much you object. We'll do what we want, no matter how hurtful you find it. So, we'll appoint people as spads and to roles in the Education Authority because we are Sinn Féin and we don't care what you think". That is certainly the impression that I have got down through the years. <BR /> <BR />I want to turn to the clauses of the Bill. Mr Allister is right about clause 2 and the powers that it lays out. Clause 3 is important because it allows for a review panel to determine eligibility, so the idea that it runs contrary to the principles of natural justice is not true.”
“I believe that almost everything that Sinn Féin has been engaged in for the last 20 years has been about seeking retrospective approval for the campaign of the IRA, and seeking to politically legitimise it. I state that very openly and clearly. That is what has been going on over the last 20 years. There has been a flagrant attempt to sanitise the history of what went on in this country in order to create a situation where those who, like my friends' fathers, who joined the RUC to earn a crust and keep a roof over their kids' heads, are the bad guys and, meanwhile, the people who planted nail bombs with hundreds of pounds worth of nails attached to them are the good guys. I am sorry, but I will never be persuaded that that is the case, nor do I believe that the huge majority of people in this country will.”
“Such appointments are made with the deliberate intent of hurting people's feelings, of rubbing salt into wounds and of causing offence. It is shamelessness, barefaced shamelessness; the sort of shamelessness that says to the population of Northern Ireland, "You'll have 15 at the funeral of your mother but we'll have thousands at a rally for one of ours". That is the sort of shamelessness that people in this country have endured for years, and never is it apologised for. It is brazened out time and time and time again because nothing matters more than the movement; not confidence in these institutions, not confidence in the police. The movement is all that matters.”
“I remember playing with my friend in the school playground. Every time the sky got cloudy, he would start crying and run into the school because he was terrified of what he had seen done to his father on the steps of his house. He will carry that with him forever, and the people who did that are not to be lauded as heroes or given a role in the education of any of our children. The father of another of my primary school friends was a policeman. A gunman walked up to him and shot him in the back of the head on Royal Avenue. No one has been brought to justice for either of those crimes, so I suppose there is a possibility that those responsible may well be sitting on a board somewhere.”
“<BR /> <BR />Speaking as a parent of four young children who are at primary school and as a citizen of this country, I am absolutely against someone who engaged in the criminal acts that have been described in the debate having any role in formulating the policy that governs the education of my children. I say that because of two friends in my primary-school class. One was my best friend. His father was a policeman who was gunned down in front of him when my friend was six.”
“I accept that, for many in the House, daring to say that there was ever anything wrong with the Belfast Agreement is now a form of anathema. For thousands of people around this country, however, it has been very hard to bear the spectacle of those who murdered their loved ones being released from prison after serving only a fraction of the sentences that they were lawfully given. A lot of people throughout the community would have been prepared to endure such pain and lack of justice if there had been even a perfunctory expression of remorse. The Bill addresses that point. There has not; never once has there been a perfunctory expression of sympathy, regret or apology.”
“In response to the previous Member to speak, I say that no Member, of any political party, deserves praise for coming up to the same basic democratic standards that the rest of us have had to apply and play by all our political lives. People should not be praised for stopping doing what they should not have been doing in the first instance. We should accept that as a reasonable principle not just for life in general but for politics in particular in this place. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the debate and the Bill's content. I will make some observations about the context in which the discussion is taking place. People throughout the community have had to endure so much in the name of moving forward and the peace process. In many respects, natural justice in this country was turned on its head in 1998.”
“I recall seeing evidence of what the Member is alluding to when he was in front of the Executive Office Committee; the parentage, rather than the content, of the Bill was attacked on various occasions. <BR /> <BR />The Member was instrumental in the introduction of the earlier legislation that he referred to, and he will recall that a big part of that legislation's passing was the public campaign by an innocent victim that moved parties and almost shamed them into moving their position on that legislation. Does the Member agree that, if someone voted for the legislation in 2013, there is absolutely no logical reason why they would not vote for this?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Mr Muir now appears to be defending a situation in which a person with criminal convictions cannot be appointed as an independent member to a lower-level policing body, the PCSP, yet can have a direct hand in the appointment of its members via membership of the Policing Board. Does the Member agree that there is absolutely no logic in that position?”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. He is being generous with his time. Given some of the offences that the Member has listed, will he agree with me that it is actually outrageous that there are people serving on public bodies in this country who, if an Access NI check were undertaken on them, would not be allowed over the doors of a primary school?”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way; I am loathe to interrupt him at such an important point in his address. <BR /> <BR />Will the Member agree that the debate takes place in the context of a culture created by successive Governments' policy in London and Dublin? We now have a situation where people who have suffered experiences like that have to live in a society where those who behaved in such a despicable way are lauded by elected representatives as heroes and people worthy of respect?”
“I declare an interest as the parent of a P7 child. While I appreciate that boards of governors set the criteria for admissions to year 8, will the Department provide more explicit guidance to boards of governors in order to provide uniformity across schools or at least to ensure that the eldest child is not discriminated against?”
“I hope that that is not the direction in which government policy is going, but that has been the lived experience of my constituents in Ravenhill Avenue and Earl Haig. We need to preserve our built heritage, not replace it with grey, bland concrete.”
“Another unique feature of the city that you and I both live in is that you will find ex-servicemen's houses around the place. They were built for veterans returning from the First World War. Lloyd George talked about homes fit for heroes. Off Ravenhill Avenue, as the name would suggest, there are various streets containing the name Earl Haig, which were named after Field Marshal Haig. Similar wanton destruction has taken place there, with granite kerbstones that have been in place for generations ripped out and replaced with grey concrete. <BR /> <BR />The question, sir, is this: what sort of a city do we want to live in? Do we want Belfast to continue to have pride in itself and in its architecture, or do we wish our city to become a mass of glass, steel and concrete?”
“<BR /> <BR />Red-brick streetscape — I nearly got that out — is a uniquely Belfast feature, as are city trees. One of the examples in my constituency is at Ravenhill Avenue. Associated with such streetscape and city trees is granite curbing, which has been in place in Ravenhill Avenue for generations, yet the Department for Infrastructure has seen fit to tear out that curbing and replace it with something of no architectural merit whatever, in the form of concrete. What is the carbon footprint of Mourne-hewn granite curbing that has been there for generations in comparison with that of concrete, which will have to be replaced, probably, once every 10 years?”
“Mr Speaker, I thank you for undertaking this initiative. It will be a useful opportunity, hopefully, for Members to raise issues for which, perhaps, an Adjournment debate would be too long and a question for urgent oral answer might not be called. <BR /> <BR />I raise the issue of the destruction of the built heritage of the city of Belfast. One of the city's best features is its built heritage. From the Georgian era, we have Clifton House and May Street Presbyterian Church. From the Victorian era, there is the Lanyon Building at Queen's and the Custom House. Belfast City Hall is an Edwardian building. We sit in a great example of a pre-World War II building. In the more modern era, the Waterfront Hall and Titanic Belfast are signature building projects of this city.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Member is veering dangerously close to questioning rulings from the Chair. Can you direct him that that is inappropriate?”
“I understand and accept that, but it will be our job to hold the PHA's feet to the fire on those issues in order to ensure the best outcomes. <BR /> <BR />It is important, however, to recognise the fact that legitimate concerns have been raised and that the Minister is moving to address them. The worst thing that we could do on an occasion like this is to frighten people and make them afraid to send their children to school. Schooling and classroom learning is so important, and we are now in a situation in this country where there are kids in P3 who have not had a full year of schooling. That cannot go on.”
“This is a public health issue, and, therefore, it is right that the Health Department and the Public Health Agency have been brought in to assist in the matter because it is outwith the core vires of the Department of Education to deal with a public health issue. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the cooperation between Minister McIlveen and Minister Swann. They have demonstrated what Executive cooperation should look like, because there are issues that are cross-departmental in nature. I welcome the fact that practical solutions are now being put in place. I know that other Members, including Mr Sheehan in the past, have expressed concern about the capacity of the Public Health Agency to carry out its functions.”
“No. <BR /> <BR />We have to give our people an assurance, and we must not encourage public panic. I am not suggesting that the Chair of the Health Committee has done that, but other utterances over time have added to the anxiety and the legitimately held concerns of parents and teaching staff. <BR /> <BR />The Department of Education has various responsibilities. It is responsible for preschools, primary schools, post-primary schools and special educational needs schools. It is responsible for youth policy, community relations inside and between schools, and it is responsible for teacher education and salaries. It is not responsible for public health.”
“— I know that you are not — but in the next sentence to declare that they are also unsafe.”
“I am not in any way dismissing those concerns. That is why it is so reckless for Mr McCrossan to declare that schools are safe”
“Thank you. Who could believe that that was a representative of the party that kept us down for three years without devolution? <BR /> <BR />Let us not pretend that the other parties, including some of those who brought the motion today, were in the dark about the situation. The paper, as was referenced by others, was agreed at the Executive meeting on 12 August, and all parties were present at that meeting.”
“In many respects, beyond political grandstanding — it is always a joy to watch the Member for West Tyrone go from zero to eight on the Richter scale during any debate — it is quite a moot motion now, because the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health are moving jointly to address the concerns that have been expressed.”
“It is accepted that there is no substitute for classroom learning and the classroom learning experience. Therefore, it is incumbent on us to ensure that all our children have access to that experience. Research also demonstrates that, when schools close, those who are hit hardest by such closures are children from poor and less well-off backgrounds. In order to protect those children, it is absolutely essential that we have as much classroom learning as possible. <BR /> <BR />With the issue under debate here, it has been flagged, and concerns have been expressed. The Minister, in conjunction with the Minister of Health, is now moving to address those concerns.”
“I direct the House to my declaration in the Register of Members' Interests: I am a governor of Braniel Primary School. <BR /> <BR />First, I pay tribute to the teachers, classroom assistants and caretaking staff who are working in our schools to keep them open and safe and to ensure that our children and young people have access to their education, which they have been denied for a very long time as a consequence of the pandemic. I also pay tribute to the pupils and young people who have had to persevere with their education in extremely trying and difficult circumstances. <BR /> <BR />We should start with first principles. For me, the first principle is that children should, insofar as is possible, be allowed to attend school in order to further their education.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. He has provided a useful segue to the point that I was trying to make to the Member for West Tyrone that he did not want to hear. It is my understanding that attendance rates last week showed an overall in-school attendance rate of 94%, which is higher than at this point last year and does not sit with the vision of chaos that the Member for West Tyrone sought to portray in his contribution.”
“The problem was identified last week, and the Minister has moved to address it, has she not?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I will quote to the Member the president of the National Association of Head Teachers (NAHT) Northern Ireland, Graham Gault, who said:”
“Excuse me. Do not chunter at me from a sedentary position.”
“Thank you, Mr Allister. I sat through many of those debates, and my recollection of events is exactly the same as yours. People berated in the press and lambasted those who provided the transfer test procedure. Everyone knows that massive pressure was brought to bear on those organisations by political parties represented in this Chamber to cancel the tests, the consequence of which was —”