Christopher Stalford
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“In the United States of America, you have two schools of thought: the expansionists — the people who do not believe that the Founding Fathers should be taken at their word, or that the Constitution should be interpreted in the strict sense; and the originalists — those who do.”
“Let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />The key point in the brief is the "particular circumstances" of Northern Ireland. That is, and should be, central to everything that we examine.”
“I do not think that it ever got particularly bad-tempered, so I am disappointed at the tone that was struck in the opening of the debate and in subsequent contributions, but I am not going to lie down like a dog and take it. I am not going to take the rewriting of history.”
“There is one absolute right in law, and that is the right not to be tortured. That is an absolute right that is accepted as a universal right. How many people did the fellow travellers of the party opposite deny that human right to? So I am not going to take that from any Member opposite when it comes to rights.”
“I have stated my position and made it clear that I think that we have a strong human rights framework in Northern Ireland. We have two bodies, established in law, that are dedicated to the protection of human rights and equality. We are one of the most human rights- and fairness-compliant societies in the world. It is important.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. She and I served together for many years on Belfast City Council, where people from different and disparate backgrounds had to work together because nobody had a majority. That was just the nature of the place. She talked about respect and disrespect.”
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“No. <BR /> <BR />That speaks volumes. The motion refers to "ongoing problems". The definition that I have of "ongoing" is "continuing or still in progress" which means they must have started at some point. I presume that that means that they started when the Ulster Unionist Party, Alliance and the SDLP were in the Government.”
“The fact is that they had the opportunity to use their precious time in the Assembly to talk about issues that are of real import to the people out there, and, instead, this is how they decide to use their time.”
“No one will ever accuse the Member of being a wannabe Minister, just a wannabe.”
“That, I think, speaks — Do you want me to give way?”
“Today, we could be talking about health, education, roads, jobs or anything, but, instead, the bold, brave Opposition, under the leadership of the Member for Strangford, are interested in an insiderish political bubble-type story that will not put one loaf of bread on anyone's table. That, I think, speaks —”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. I have listened to him now for about four and a half minutes, and I presume that the myriad of problems that he is describing never occurred at DEL when he was the Minister?”
“What has the impact been from the funding that has been raised by the levy in the most important constituency in Northern Ireland, South Belfast?”
“Is the Minister aware of the ComRes research that found that 77% of "Leave" voters wanted to ensure that the status of EU migrants was protected post-referendum? Does he also agree that it is essential that we move forward from the referendum united as a community in condemnation of all those who would engage in such attacks?”
“Thank you. I am glad that you gave way. Do you accept that there is a direct correlation with this annual event ending up, in the last week in June, being blown completely out of proportion, usually in the South Belfast News. We have already talked about the fact that, if you push people in one direction, you will get an opposite reaction. Every year, two political parties in particular make a huge issue out of this. I believe that others are committed to a genuine shared future and, in particular, on the Ormeau Road. The SDLP would not even vote for a flower bed to go into the Ormeau park to celebrate the 100th anniversary of Ballynafeigh Orange hall. A flower bed was too much for them.”
“Thank you. I want everyone to work together to build a genuinely shared future, but it will not be achieved by lecturing from ivory towers.”
“Neither I nor the other people who come from that tradition should be made to feel guilty or bad for displaying it during what is a special time of the year for them. I do not complain when others in the part of South Belfast that I come from display their tradition, because to do so would be a dual standard — a double standard.”
“When people look at the absolute dual standard that is applied by the SDLP in relation to the issue, it is no wonder. They do not want to hear; they will not listen to be execrated and condemned by a party with such a dual standard on issues like this. <BR /> <BR />As the start of my contribution, I said that I am from the Ormeau Road. That is where I was born. I am from Annadale, and I am very proud to come from there. My vision of the future is a time when it becomes accepted that these displays happen at certain times of the year. That was the case many years ago. We should take the heat out of these issues and agree to live together. Part of agreeing to live together means that people are free to celebrate who they are and what they are. I am a unionist and a loyalist, and I am very proud of the tradition that I come from.”
“I am indicating that I am not giving way. When people look —”
“When people look at the double standards —”
“We were told by Claire Hanna that people should not be made to feel uncomfortable. It is evident that, as a member of the SDLP, she was not made to feel uncomfortable by a party that names a play park after a terrorist. She was not made to feel uncomfortable by a party that campaigns for the release of terrorists from prison. I am thinking particularly of Dolours Price and Gerry McGeough — Gerry McGeough, who, incidentally, was responsible for attempting to murder a member of my party. She was not uncomfortable being led by a man who took part in a funeral where a paramilitary display took place, but apparently a flag on a lamp post makes her feel uncomfortable.”
“They tut-tut at that community. They have no connection —”
“You do. The Member does. Every year, we see people who have absolutely no connection with the working-class loyalist community tut-tutting —”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />That is what we are trying to work through, and I welcome contributions in that regard. With the greatest of respect, what will not solve the problem is Assembly Members securing an Adjournment debate on this and tut-tutting at working-class loyalist communities that put flags up.”
“I have no objection to a GAA club putting up its flags, especially one that contributes to the community in the way that Bredagh does. I do not and would not object to that because it is reflective of the fact, as has been said, that South Belfast is a diverse community. There are people from a Protestant background, a unionist background, a Catholic background and people who have none of those identities. They all live in South Belfast. You talk about a shared future and shared space, but the image of the shared space that was painted in the opening section of this debate was an absolutely bland one in which people could not in any way express themselves for fear that someone else would be offended by a display —”
“I do not have as much time as you, Claire.”
“No. You get to make a winding-up speech. I do not have as much time as you.”
“To do the reverse is also to be a hypocrite. To cast a blind eye and say nothing when republican symbols go up at the bottom of the Ormeau Road but get oneself into a state of righteous indignation and fury when unionist symbols go up at the top end of the Ormeau Road is to be a hypocrite, and some of those who whip themselves up into a frenzy during July and August over flags in South Belfast are noticeable by their silence when it comes to other displays. <BR /> <BR />For the record, I have no problem, Claire — through the Deputy Speaker — with Bredagh GAA club putting up its flags. Bredagh GAA club contributes positively to the community in South Belfast —”
“July and August, in the unionist community, are about the celebrations associated with Orangeism and the victory of William at the Boyne, which is an important part of who I am and of the identity of the community that I come from. <BR /> <BR />The Ormeau Road was always a mixed community, and people there knew that, during July and August, flags went up. My ideal scenario is that, at the end of August or the start of September, they come down. I think that progress is being made in that regard. I deliberately did not say anything about the displays that went up below the Ormeau bridge over the last few months. I deliberately did not say anything because I would have been a hypocrite if I had defended the Union flags going up at one end of the bridge and then condemned republican symbols going up at the other end of the Ormeau Road.”
“It is not only the SDLP and the Alliance Party, but it is generally the SDLP and the Alliance Party. <BR /> <BR />Unlike any other representative in the Chamber, I was actually born on the Ormeau Road and come from there. I know that, during July and August, people put flags on lamp posts. I am sure that that is the case in parts of your constituency, Mr Deputy Speaker, and in other constituencies, because those months are a special time in the broad unionist tradition. I have absolutely no objection to Union flags, Northern Ireland flags and Orange standards going up during July and August. For the benefit of the record, I believe that no paramilitary display and no display of any terrorist organisation should occur. They should not be there and are outwith the July and August tradition. They form no part of that tradition.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, you will be familiar with the fact that it is often unionists who are accused of being absolutely obsessed with flags and the display of them. Yet, during the months of July and August, our friend from South Belfast, my constituency colleague and others dine out on nothing else but the issue of flags in the media, or at least that is how it seems to the people in the constituency. The limit of her ambition in dealing with issues around flags and identity is not to be underestimated, but it was interesting to note that we had one cursory reference to displays of a non-unionist kind. Oddly enough, the lady from South Belfast and others are very prominent any time — it is usually the third week in June; you could set your watch by it — a few flags go up on the Ormeau Road. The hissy fits start.”
“Would the Member care to hazard a guess about the year the number of flags on lamp posts throughout Belfast skyrocketed? Hazard a guess about when people decided to put extra flags up. What do you think might have prompted that decision?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He will note that today's business had to be presented to us not by the leader of the Opposition but by a member of the Government, the Deputy Chair of the Committee for Communities. Yesterday was the first so-called Opposition day that we have had in the House, and the leader of the Opposition, or Mike Nesbitt's deputy, or whatever his official title is, could not be here then either.”
“It is in all our interests for it to continue to be a success, but it is also in our interests for it to be held accountable for the way in which taxpayer money —”
“I agree with the point made, again by the Member for East Belfast, about the need to decriminalise the non-payment of a licence fee. It cannot be right that so much time, effort and resource are spent pursuing people, with criminal charges being brought against them, for the non-payment of a TV licence. <BR /> <BR />Moving forward, more openness and transparency are needed about how money is spent, and there needs to be a greater preparedness to reflect the society it serves. There also needs to be a genuine commitment to independence and neutrality. The BBC is, as I said, a great national institution. It covers big national events like the Queen's jubilee and the state opening of Parliament. Even its general election coverage is better than that offered by anyone else.”
“It is part of who we are; it is part of our tradition and our identity. I would like to see more of a reflection of that being produced by the BBC. <BR /> <BR />I am absolutely not saying that the growth of one should be at the expense of another, such as the Irish language. I recognise that that is important to people as well. I think we should have greater parity between those two traditions and how they are reflected. Some of the programmes produced have been really good. I think particularly of the series that was produced about the Ulster-Scots contribution in Canada. I would like to see more high-quality programming like that being produced as part of the obligations the BBC has in that regard. <BR /> <BR />The BBC likes to talk about the unique way in which it is funded. That is code for the TV tax we all pay.”
“By royal appointment. <BR /> <BR />Progress has been made with openness and transparency. The headlines have obviously been grabbed by the issue of talent pay. I think a more important issue is that the coverage produced for Northern Ireland should reflect Northern Ireland. The BBC recognises that and that it has an obligation to minority languages and cultural expression. One of the areas where I believe there has been a falling away is the representation of the entire Ulster-Scots tradition. I am not an Ulster Scot in the sense of family background, but it is something that interests me and that I have taken an interest in because of the shared heritage and tradition that there is. Northern Ireland and Scotland are divided by about eight miles of water at some points and precious little else.”
“I welcome that, as Naomi Long, a Member for East Belfast, said, there will be a Northern Ireland representative appointed to make our voice heard. Given the comments from the former special adviser turned Assembly Member for North Belfast, I am sure she will be able to advise of the public appointment procedures she went through. <BR /> <BR />I am delighted that progress has been made —”
“The BBC is one of the great national institutions. It is extremely powerful. I would suggest that, certainly in Northern Ireland and potentially in the United Kingdom as a whole, it is much more powerful than any political party. With such power comes a responsibility for regulation, so I welcome the fact that Ofcom is to assume regulatory powers with regard to the BBC. It is right that an organisation that millions of people are taxed to pay for should be regulated in that way and scrutinised for the way in which it is run.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member will be aware that I raised the issue of public appointments in the Committee for Communities. I suspect that there is a coterie of about 100 people in Northern Ireland who absolutely dominate all public appointments. Does she agree that, if the BBC is to be a truly national broadcaster, it is essential that it is reflective of the public? That includes not just the usual definitions but things like social class.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Very briefly, he says that the younger you start, the more damage it does. Does he agree with me, then, that that is a solid argument against the Continental approach to alcohol whereby young people are exposed to it from a very early age?”
“I think Mr Bell now has grounds for a defamation action. <BR /> <BR />We recognise that this legislation is a positive step forward. I think there is a genuine spirit not only in the Committee but around the Chamber to bring this process to a quick conclusion by putting in place a framework that allows for the expansion of vital tourism sectors but that also protects wider society. I commend the Minister for bringing the measures before the House, and I look forward to working not only as a member of the Committee but with all Members around the Chamber to see them progress.”
“Through his professional career, Mr Kennedy, not through consumption.”
“I thank the Member for his point, and he is obviously much more qualified in these matters than I am. It is probably better that we —”
“I was going to say that the Member is at perfect liberty to bring in private Member's legislation in that regard, but he is not any more. I am certain that if the Member was to bring a motion or what have you before the House on that, there would be a full and varied discussion. He probably knows what side of that discussion I would be on, as I do not support the legalisation of cannabis, but I recognise the very negative impact that alcohol can have on our society. I also recognise that there is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that cannabis is not a benign substance and it does have a negative impact on people who use it frequently or over any sustained period.”
“It is important that we use this as an opportunity to —”
“<BR /> <BR />I am pleased that it was acknowledged that complete liberalisation and 24-hour opening was not a path that people wanted to go down. I am pleased that people recognise that increased liberalisation of opening hours does present particular challenges. I welcome the massive uptake that we have had in tourism in this city over the past 15 years. That is a good thing, but I for one would hate to see Belfast, Londonderry or any other part of Northern Ireland become like some seaside resorts in England, where people go for hen and stag weekends and just ruin the town and its reputation. They make eejits of themselves and make life miserable for the people who live there. <BR /> <BR />We all want tourism, but we want tourism that brings with it benefits for the community. There are more important things sometimes than just money.”
“I am pleased that the Minister will indicate — or I hope he will — a preparedness to work with us to accommodate those establishments in the legislation. <BR /> <BR />I do listen sometimes to some of the contributions that are made, and they almost make continental Europe sound like some sort of Utopia, where everything is open all the time and everyone is allowed to do whatever they want, but they all do it moderately, and everyone gets along terribly well. We need to be slightly more realistic about that when everyone is holding up the great continental model of how to do things. I am not saying that just because I am an anti-federalist. We need to be a bit more realistic, reasoned and grounded in the arguments that we make.”
“Well, I am not going to pass comment on where and when the Member for East Belfast drinks, but I am sure that it would never be before she gets to her feet in this place. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we recognise that this is a potential growth area for the economy and tourism.”
“I agree absolutely with what the Member for East Belfast Mrs Long said with regard to the tourism value and potential that those outlets have. That is something that can be uniquely Northern Ireland —”
“I also welcome the fact, however, that the ancient and noble tradition of the school formal will be allowed to continue in Northern Ireland because of the measures that have been brought in, whereas it had previously been under threat as a consequence of the existing regulations. I am pleased that the Minister has taken action on drinks promotions. I welcome that. I also welcome the fact that the phenomena of dial-a-drink or dial-a-carry-out is to be tackled. As has been said numerous times by many Members, we need to take action in that area. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased that there is agreement across the Committee that more must be done to help microbreweries and craft distillers. I think that there is agreement in that regard.”
“I was therefore a bit disappointed when my constituency colleague Claire Hanna seemed to set up some straw man arguments and then knock them down again. They were arguments that actually neither the Minister nor anybody from these Benches had been making about the licensing regulations. It might be a source of disappointment to some people that the arguments that they were anticipating have not actually been made and that the legislation that has been produced by the Minister is a rounded piece that strikes a balance — an important balance — between promoting jobs and growth in the economy and protecting young people, in particular, and wider society. <BR /> <BR />In that vein, I welcome various measures that are contained in the draft legislation. I welcome the fact that we will ban vending machines that dispense alcohol.”
“Of the constituencies that will be directly affected by the legislation and the problems that it seeks to address, my constituency of South Belfast probably ranks very high up the list, because, on any given weekend, you can see the problems that are associated with the excessive consumption of alcohol, particularly in the city centre. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that the focus that has driven forward these measures is protecting local communities and their interests. I sense — I think that this is a good thing — that there is broad consensus around the Chamber on the direction in which people want to go. There might be some differences in emphasis, but I think that there is broad consensus. I sensed that in the Committee.”
“The Member will be aware that, in mainland GB, many places have 24-hour opening hours. I assume that the Member does not want South Belfast, the constituency that we both represent, to become like Blackpool at the weekend.”
“Thank you, Mr Allen, for giving way. In conversation at the Committee for Communities, there has been agreement across parties on the need to address the issue of microbreweries. Had the Minister sought in legislation at this juncture to address it, it would have entailed an entirely new consultation process. There is nothing to prevent the Committee from bringing forward an amendment and dealing with the issue in that way. As I said, I do not think that there is any disagreement over the issue and the need to address it.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Can the Minister confirm for the House that the genesis for the pension changes came about in 1995 as a result of a directive emanating from the European Union?”