Christopher Stalford
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“In the United States of America, you have two schools of thought: the expansionists — the people who do not believe that the Founding Fathers should be taken at their word, or that the Constitution should be interpreted in the strict sense; and the originalists — those who do.”
“Let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />The key point in the brief is the "particular circumstances" of Northern Ireland. That is, and should be, central to everything that we examine.”
“I do not think that it ever got particularly bad-tempered, so I am disappointed at the tone that was struck in the opening of the debate and in subsequent contributions, but I am not going to lie down like a dog and take it. I am not going to take the rewriting of history.”
“There is one absolute right in law, and that is the right not to be tortured. That is an absolute right that is accepted as a universal right. How many people did the fellow travellers of the party opposite deny that human right to? So I am not going to take that from any Member opposite when it comes to rights.”
“I have stated my position and made it clear that I think that we have a strong human rights framework in Northern Ireland. We have two bodies, established in law, that are dedicated to the protection of human rights and equality. We are one of the most human rights- and fairness-compliant societies in the world. It is important.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. She and I served together for many years on Belfast City Council, where people from different and disparate backgrounds had to work together because nobody had a majority. That was just the nature of the place. She talked about respect and disrespect.”
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“Thank you. I may be wrong, but I think that the Education Act 1947 mandates that, in the first three years of your secondary education, you do RE. I went through Wellington College in our constituency. Our headmaster, Mr Derick Woods, was a Moravian, and there used to be a joint service at Christmas time with Aquinas. I can honestly say that that was the only religious instruction, as it were, carried out by a member of the clergy, that I ever had at school. The rest of it was the teaching of RE.”
“<BR /> <BR />Reference was made to polling numbers that show that people want their children to be educated alongside children from other backgrounds and identities. In my constituency, that is exactly what is delivered every day by so many schools. Of course, people will want integrated education, but in vast swathes of South Belfast, they are already getting it. <BR /> <BR />It is important to put on record appreciation of the work of all the education sectors. Let us not denigrate the efforts towards community-building, bringing people together and serving the entire community that all the sectors make.”
“The shorthand is basically that there are Protestant schools, Catholic schools and integrated schools, but, as someone who went through what is classified as the "Protestant" education route, I assure you that my religion was not picked up in school. <BR /> <BR />There are area planning implications here. It is clear that, if the Bill is enacted, the provision of schools will be warped. All the problems with the Bill that others have highlighted in this debate mean that you could not vote for it. What is going on here is a fear to be seen to be against integration. That is not true. It is not true to say that the two are mutually exclusive and that you have to vote for the Bill because otherwise you are not in favour of our children being educated together.”
“Henry Ford famously said that his customers could have any colour of car they liked as long as it was black. With the Bill, you can have any type of school that you like, as long as it is integrated. I am concerned about the practical outworkings of that. <BR /> <BR />I will raise the issue of religion and religious values. I was educated in a controlled primary school and a controlled grammar school. Any person who thinks that those of us who travelled that route were inculcated with Protestant values is wrong. I did not acquire the religious views and values that I hold through my schooling. As a parent of four young children, I regard it as my duty, not that of the school, to share my religious values with my children. I do not suggest for one second the pursuit of religion out of education; of course, I absolutely do not.”
“I have no doubt that, should the legislation pass and become the law of the land, judicial reviews (JRs) will be flying left, right and centre on the decisions that will be made. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I want to see radical reform of how education is delivered. At the start of the mandate, I said that public service reform and how we delivered public services would be our biggest challenge. We wasted so much time that could have been used to drive through public service reform. I hope that there is a commitment to public service reform in the time that we have left and in the new mandate. Education and health, in particular, will be the lodestar of what we try to do. <BR /> <BR />I am concerned that the Bill, effectively, prescribes what I describe as a "Henry Ford approach" to education.”
“I have deep concern about what that means for other education providers.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not want us to jump the gun on an ongoing process about the future of education. The Minister will take receipt of the review, and it will be her job to take through its recommendations. In an earlier intervention, I said that clause 7 had obvious equality implications. I know that the Member for Strangford will dispute that. However, when you create a situation where, as the clause says:”
“I understand that there is a separate concept of "integrated", and Ms Armstrong can speak to that, but many of the schools in my constituency are integrated in the sense that they are reflective of the communities that they serve. There are schools such as Botanic Primary School, in which more than 50 languages are spoken. Fane Street Primary School and Rosetta Primary School are the same. They are integrated in the sense that they are truly reflective of the entire community that they serve and of those who live in the constituency that I have the great honour to represent. I am therefore concerned that many of those schools do not get the credit that they deserve because there is not a particular word on the sign at the front of the school.”
“I heard Mr Sheehan outline those earlier, and I understand the reasons behind why they felt that that was the right thing to do at the time, but you would not design it like that now. It is like the expression that a camel is a horse designed by committee. Our education system is certainly not ideal. <BR /> <BR />I will make a point about many of the schools in my constituency. Members from my constituency know that five different parties represent South Belfast in this place. That is reflective of the fact that it is an extremely diverse constituency. I would describe many of the schools in my constituency as integrated.”
“It is important to put this question on the record: if we were to design a system of education provision, would we choose to have that which we have now? I do not think that any reasonable person could say that we would, given the number of sectors out there, the waste that is clearly in the system and the need for brave decisions to be taken on the school estate and other issues. The answer is, of course, no. If you were setting out to design from scratch an education system, you would not design what we have in Northern Ireland. There are lots of historical reasons for why we have what we have, such as religious groups not wanting to give up control of schools when the Education Act (Northern Ireland) 1947 was passed. There were other reasons.”
“I do not believe that there is a disagreement about the ultimate goal, which must be to secure a situation in which our children are educated together. <BR /> <BR />Not only do I have an excellent secondary school with integrated status in my constituency, but, more recently, Harding Memorial Primary School at the top of the Cregagh Road applied for and secured integrated status.”
“He was right to say that it is morally wrong, and all the parties that signed up to 'New Decade, New Approach' were also right. I see the commitment to the review of education as being almost similar to the Bengoa report for the health service. That is how far I want it to go and how radical and brave I want it to be. When the Bengoa report was being talked about, I said that it was the responsibility of all of us to give the Health Minister the cover that he needed to take decisions that would not go down well in some quarters because that was the right thing to do. I say that again about education reform. I hope that consensus can be built on the issue and that the Education Minister will, in turn, be given that cover and support.”
“I say this to Alliance Party Members: please, do not represent my opposition to the Bill as opposition to our children being educated together, because it most certainly is not. <BR /> <BR />In my constituency, I have an excellent integrated school; indeed, it has been the flagship of the integrated education movement. One of the other Members for South Belfast was one of the first children educated at that school. She can speak to the quality of the education that she received at Lagan College.”
“First, it is possible to believe in the general principle that all of our children should be educated together and to oppose the content of the Bill. There is no contradiction. As a general principle, which is what we discuss at Second Stage, I believe that our children should be educated together, and my party has held that position for some time. I recall an address given by the then First Minister, the Rt Hon Peter Robinson in which he outlined his vision of a genuinely shared education system. The reaction to that speech demonstrated to me that significant vested interests in the provision of education will need to be tackled if we are to achieve a situation in which all our children are educated together.”
“Having strangled off parental demand for new school buildings and disregarded the existence of spare places in nearby schools, in what circumstances would a school get built?”
“Thank you for giving way. Subsection (1) of the relevant clause refers to "by reason of special circumstances". It goes on to define what are not to be considered special circumstances:”
“"Considered" is not the same thing as proven. As a man who was a Minister, does he anticipate that there may well be a legal challenge around the section 75 implications of the legislation, particularly in relation to clause 7?”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Paragraph 18 of the explanatory and financial memorandum (EFM) that was produced by the Member for Strangford says:”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. I have been listening to the debate outside. He talks about the fundamental review of education, to which everyone is committed, and the recommendations that will come from it. Clause 7 would create circumstances in which every single new school that is opened in Northern Ireland will belong to one sector. How does the reality of what the legislation would do in practice reflect the need for the wide-ranging reform of all education?”
“I am looking at the list of ministerial delegates at this event. It includes the Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, his deputy, Mr Leo Varadkar, and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr Simon Coveney. The event was held in Fermanagh, and presumably they were able to cross our border to attend it. If the Minister was listening to Radio Ulster this morning, she will have heard the story of a Northern Ireland family that has been effectively placed under house arrest in the Republic of Ireland. Has the issue of the Irish Government providing the necessary information to those arriving in Dublin and travelling on to Northern Ireland been satisfactorily resolved? It is ridiculous that Irish Government Ministers are able to cross our border but Northern Ireland citizens are not.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. She touches on a very important and central issue. For many of those people, authority and those in authority have treated them badly throughout their lives. The consequence of their going through an adversarial process to try to get justice for their suffering is that it is re-traumatising them.”
“Now we have to step up and ensure proper and adequate delivery for them.”
“It has been a long and winding road to this point. Having got here, if we discover where there is room for improvement, there is no reason that we cannot take the measures. I am sure that the First Minister and deputy First Minister will outline that. <BR /> <BR />I raised the issue of funding the scheme, and I say this very directly: creative accountancy practices should not get in the way of justice and of people paying their fair share for their responsibilities in this regard. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to support the motion. I thank the Chairman for bringing it before the Assembly. I believe that it represents a considered Committee position. Finally, I thank the commissioner for her work, and, most of all, I thank the victims, whether they are individuals or groups, who have suffered long enough.”
“What matrix is there for that? How do you write that down and codify it? Obviously, it will be very difficult, but, in financial terms, is one person's suffering worth less than another's? If so, how do we quantify that? As I say, that is an uncomfortable conversation that has to be had. However, it is important that everyone has full confidence that they will be treated equally and fairly when they go through any processes.”
“As a first principle, it should be accepted that those processes need to be gentle and caring with people. They cannot be overly legalistic. They cannot be processes whereby people are re-traumatised and made to feel even worse. That cannot be the case, because we are all committed to trying to help people who have suffered at the hands of institutions and through the failures of the state. <BR /> <BR />The Chair also referred to the disparity in awards, and I absolutely agree with him on that point. It is very distasteful to have to talk about this, but how does one quantify another person's suffering?”
“It is important that victims are at the heart of any considerations of these matters. The principle of co-design and victims having a direct hand in shaping the schemes is also accepted by all parties on the Committee. <BR /> <BR />As a general principle, we are really asking for a review of best practice. There is nothing to stop the continued roll-out of the programme to help victims to access the funding and support that they need while we try to find the areas that we can improve. It is better to get things right now than to have the lengthy roll-out of a scheme that is not delivering for people. We need to deliver for people. <BR /> <BR />The Chairperson of the Committee, Mr McGrath, referred to one of the consistently raised criticisms, namely of the processes that people are expected to go through.”
“This is probably the seventh or eighth time that I have participated in a debate on these matters. It is worth restating a few basic principles. The first of those, which I think is accepted by all, is that we have an absolute moral obligation towards those who were placed into the hands and care of rapists, paedophiles and criminals. We recognised our obligation to those people when we started the process of attempting to find redress for their suffering. The state has responsibilities in this regard, and it is right that we meet our responsibilities. <BR /> <BR />I have been on the Executive Office Committee continuously since I became a Member of the House. I am, therefore, well acquainted with many of the issues around these matters. We have all been lobbied or spoken to by innocent victims who are simply seeking justice.”
“I am very grateful to the Member for giving way. This is a point on the funding of the scheme that I have raised several times. Yes, the state had responsibilities and should be held accountable for that, but these institutions, which are some of the wealthiest in this land, also have an obligation. Will the Member agree with me?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. Does he agree that, as a general principle, one of the concerning developments over recent months has been that of mission creep, whereby measures that, we were told, were temporary suddenly become permanent and, as the Member has rightly identified, more and more power is shifted to the centre?”
“The European Union's cheerleaders who fought to prevent the implementation of the Brexit referendum result and cheered Brussels every step of the way in the process did so because they owe a higher fealty to the European Union than they do to their own constituents and the interests of those constituents. We will not be lectured on doing what is right for the people of Northern Ireland by those who are actively campaigning to make them poorer.”
“They argued for the provisions of the protocol. The protocol does not need to be amended; it needs to go, because it is impacting on the lives of our people in a negative way. Whether in respect of supplies or economic activity, the consequence of the protocol is to make people in Northern Ireland less well off by denying them their rights as United Kingdom citizens.”
“We have seen the supply of certain food products to the people of Northern Ireland being threatened. Therefore, those who signed up to the protocol, those who were scuttling around Brussels demanding the provisions of the protocol should take ownership of it. The protocol is not a consequence of Brexit; it is a consequence of a Remainer rearguard action to deny the outcome of the Brexit referendum in 2016. They fought for it, they argued for it, and they demanded it. Now, they seek to tell their constituents, "It wasn't really us, guv. We didn't do it. No, no, no. It was all those evil people who campaigned to leave the European Union". <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland is being used as a political football by the European Union, and the European Union's cheerleaders in Northern Ireland should take ownership of that fact.”
“I will not sell my birthright for any mess of European Union pottage, despite being invited so to do by the Alliance Party. It is not purely an economic issue; it is a constitutional issue. The constitutional position of Northern Ireland has been fundamentally undermined and threatened by the protocol. <BR /> <BR />It is ironic that we are summoned here today to a discussion about amending the implementation of the protocol by people who called for its rigorous implementation. Mr Dickson and his party signed up to the joint position demanding the rigorous implementation of the protocol: not a soft touch or a light hand but a rigorous implementation. We have seen for ourselves what that has produced. We have seen situations where medical supplies to the people of Northern Ireland have been threatened.”
“First, I welcome the Minister to her place and wish her all the very best in her new role. The Minister will be aware that, in other UK regions, 30 hours of childcare is available. Can she tell us whether a similar offer will be included in the Northern Ireland childcare strategy?”
“I congratulate the Minister on having the prescience to anticipate where I was going with this. Does she agree that it is essential that progress is made between the Department of Justice and the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in bringing in such a register? It is essential that people who are cruel to animals are prevented from owning them.”
“I appreciate the Minister's giving way. The Minister is right that, on the whole, employers should do the decent and right thing. In fact, I suspect that, if any company or firm were shown to be not doing the right thing by someone who had suffered the loss of a child, it would probably do itself serious reputational damage. <BR /> <BR />What we heard, however, during the debate, including from the Member for Strangford Ms Armstrong, demonstrates that there clearly are employers that, whilst not perhaps saying so publicly, do pressurise people and place them in an invidious position. That therefore underscores the need for legislation in this area.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I hope that, having sat through the debate, he now recognises that there is broad agreement on the general direction of travel. In the context of issues that have been raised by other Members, I urge the Minister — I assure him that he will have massive popular support in the country — to be as bold as he wants to be in advancing those issues.”
“The Member for Strangford is speaking very movingly and personally. At the start of the debate, I could not have conceived of the idea of an employer behaving in the way you just described. What you described underpins and underscores the absolute necessity for legislation like this, because no one, but no one, in a half-civilised society, should be treated in the way you were.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Does she agree that the definition of "a parent" is crucial? Society has changed, and the definition of a parent 20 years ago is not the same as that of a parent now. It is important that the legislation reflects that.”
“A grieving parent should not face the threat of the loss of their job because of their grief. <BR /> <BR />This is welcome legislation, and it is a good starting point. I look forward to getting it into Committee and hammering out the issues that have been referred to by the Chair and the Minister. Therefore, on behalf of my party and the Minister's, I am happy to support the legislation.”
“In line with other entitlements to paid statutory leave, the Bill allows provision to be made for employers to reclaim payments from the Government. The third principal area that the legislation tackles is employment protections. Parents taking parental bereavement leave will have the same employment protections as those associated with other family-related leave; that is to say maternity, paternity, adoption, parental or shared parental leave. That includes protection from dismissal or detriment as a result of having to take said leave, although, frankly, it defies belief that any employer, in dealing with an employee in these circumstances, should threaten them with dismissal. It is immoral, and I am glad, therefore, that we have the provisions to ensure that no person should be put into such a wicked position.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill makes provision in three principal areas. The first is parental bereavement leave. The Department will be under a duty to provide by regulation a right for employed parents to be absent from work for a prescribed period, with at least two weeks' leave to be set out as the minimum entitlement, following the death of a child. All employed bereaved parents who meet the eligibility conditions, regardless of how long they have worked for their employer, should be entitled to the leave. It is important that we get clarity on that point. Secondly, on parental bereavement pay, there is a right for eligible parents who meet minimum requirements relating to continuity of employment to receive a fixed or earnings-related weekly rate of pay, which rate is to be prescribed by the regulations.”
“Here we have a starting point, a statutory minimum, but I hope that, in conversations in Committee and in consultation with the Minister and the Department, we will see the legislation expand and encompass the areas that the Chair of the Committee referred to. It has already been referenced that 250 families, which is roughly 450 parents, are affected by these issues every year. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of me not to once again place on record my appreciation of the work that Mr Frew's predecessor, Diane Dodds, a Member for Upper Bann, did in the area. In time, of all the things that she was able to achieve in the Department, where she had a difficult time of it with COVID, the economy being placed into lockdown and what have you, she will be able to look back on this as one of the things she should be proudest of.”
“First, I am mindful of the fact that sometimes this place does not get an awful lot of credit. Sometimes, people think that it is just a talking shop on a hill where the worst possible arguments take place all the time, but, actually, the Bill is an example of the Assembly coming together to deliver for people throughout the community. As has been mentioned, grief does not recognise where one puts one's X in a box on polling day. There are people from all sections of the community who have suffered as a consequence of the things that the Bill seeks not to ameliorate but to help with. <BR /> <BR />I agree with the Committee Chair about day-one rights and miscarriage.”
“I welcome my friend Mr Frew to his place today and place on record my sincere thanks for the work that Mrs Diane Dodds, the Member for Upper Bann, undertook at the Department. She was a tireless advocate for trying to get as much of our economy open as possible. Later today, we will debate the Second Stage of the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill, and she can rightly be proud of that Bill as a positive legacy of her time at the Department. <BR /> <BR />The Minister will know that this news will have a serious impact on connectivity and that connectivity will be so important as we emerge from COVID. Will the Minister outline what that impact will be and what steps the Department will take to address it?”
“The delivery of agreements, of course, requires a generosity of spirit and a spirit of respect. What message of respect is sent to the community that I represent by the fact that the party opposite vetoed an attempt to light up this building to remember innocent victims of terrorism? What message of respect does the vetoing of a memorial stone to mark the centenary of the foundation of this country send to the community that I represent? What message of respect does the vetoing of the planting of some flowers in the grounds of this estate send to the community that I represent? How does that petty disrespect convey anything other than contempt for the people that I represent?”
“I cannot: I have 40 seconds. We have already been told by the Health Minister that a request to extend the grace period on medicines has not been agreed. What possible justification can there be for such belligerence beyond spite? The people looking in will see not only the spiteful attitude that has been adopted by the European Union but the roll-out of vaccines in this part of the world as demonstrating the success that our country has had in comparison with the approach that European Union officials have taken on healthcare matters.”
“We saw it when the EU sought to deny people access to vaccines, we see it in the brutal and heavy-handed way in which it is implementing the checks at the North Channel, and we see it in this latest example of seeking to deny our people medicine and medical equipment.”
“I beg your pardon, sir. The European Commission's cheerleaders can attempt to sugar-coat it any way that they like, but that is the reality on the ground. Northern Ireland is being used by the European Union as a football to kick in order to punish the United Kingdom as a whole for daring to vote to leave its club. That is demonstrated by the fact that 20% of all checks taking place at the EU's borders are conducted on goods crossing the North Channel, a region that represents well below 1% of the European population. What does that demonstrate about the overzealous way in which the European Union conducts itself?”
“Those who defend the protocol are supporting the denial of medicines and medical equipment to the people whom they represent. The Member may shake his head as much as he likes and choose to parrot whatever line comes out of Brussels, but the exact consequence of this protocol is that people in East Antrim will not have access to the medical equipment or supplies that they need.”