Christopher Stalford
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“In the United States of America, you have two schools of thought: the expansionists — the people who do not believe that the Founding Fathers should be taken at their word, or that the Constitution should be interpreted in the strict sense; and the originalists — those who do.”
“Let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />The key point in the brief is the "particular circumstances" of Northern Ireland. That is, and should be, central to everything that we examine.”
“I do not think that it ever got particularly bad-tempered, so I am disappointed at the tone that was struck in the opening of the debate and in subsequent contributions, but I am not going to lie down like a dog and take it. I am not going to take the rewriting of history.”
“There is one absolute right in law, and that is the right not to be tortured. That is an absolute right that is accepted as a universal right. How many people did the fellow travellers of the party opposite deny that human right to? So I am not going to take that from any Member opposite when it comes to rights.”
“I have stated my position and made it clear that I think that we have a strong human rights framework in Northern Ireland. We have two bodies, established in law, that are dedicated to the protection of human rights and equality. We are one of the most human rights- and fairness-compliant societies in the world. It is important.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. She and I served together for many years on Belfast City Council, where people from different and disparate backgrounds had to work together because nobody had a majority. That was just the nature of the place. She talked about respect and disrespect.”
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“I appreciate the Member giving way. Would she care to acquaint the House with what the figure for new builds was when the SDLP held the Department for Social Development?”
“Thank you. The Member accuses us of ignoring the context of a speech given by the Prime Minister. Is it not a fact that the Member is trying to ignore the fact that 52% of the people who voted in the referendum gave their answer, and their answer is, "We are leaving the European Union"?”
“Does the Minister appreciate the sense of bewilderment that people face when the bill arrives and there has been a significant increase from the previous year, but they do not see any commensurate increase in the service that is provided? When we served together on Belfast City Council, our council sent people a rates bill that showed them how their money was being spent and how the bill was calculated. Does the Minister think that that is something that his Department would be prepared to roll out Northern Ireland-wide?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for the answers he has given the House up to this point. Will he provide an update to the House on the establishment of the Independent Reporting Commission on paramilitary activity? Does he agree that it is an outrageous slur on many of the good people who are involved in SIF projects to accuse them of being involved in paramilitarism? In my constituency, I have seen the positive benefit that the projects will have, as has the lady from South Belfast. She knows the positive benefit that they will have, and it is wrong to slur those people in that way.”
“No, you are quite all right. You had your chance. <BR /> <BR />The Member chunters away from a sedentary position, and that is precisely the type of thing that puts people off. It puts people off that a party that has the word "democratic" in its title is not prepared to accept the democratic outcome of the referendum, in which all citizens had their say. I will say briefly that running off to the courts does not strengthen your case for being a democrat.”
“The Member chunters away from a sedentary position.”
“Or Brussels, indeed. <BR /> <BR />We need to be realistic. The decision has been taken, and it is now our job to implement it. I welcome the fact —”
“I can see why our friends across the way would perhaps agree with that position, given their historical support for the Basque region, but I do not think it is one that, as you say, will go down terribly well in Madrid. We need to be realistic —”
“The single market has become the last redoubt of the "Remain" campaign. Over time, we have seen that even some of the most vociferous "Remainers" have come to accept the outcome. I urge all parties to adopt that approach.”
“I think that is what people expect. <BR /> <BR />In the time since the referendum, we have had demands for a second referendum that have slowly been watered down and dropped. We have had suggestions that the result can simply be ignored, and, gradually, people have come to realise that that is not viable either. Then we had the idea that — our friends in the SDLP were particularly strong on this point — Nicola Sturgeon was going to be the saviour of EU membership. They cling to Nicola Sturgeon. A Celtic alliance will be formed to keep us in the EU. The bold claims that she was making immediately after the referendum have slowly but surely been watered away to the point where, now, the Scottish First Minister tells us that the single market is the big issue and Scotland has to stay in it.”
“<BR /> <BR />The reaction of those on the "Remain" side during the referendum has varied. There are people, like our colleagues in the Ulster Unionist party, who accept the outcome. I appreciate that they campaigned — at least, the leadership did, if not the members — for a different position, but they have accepted the outcome and are committed to ensuring the best deal for the United Kingdom.”
“I do represent them. Every person in Northern Ireland had the same opportunity. I think particularly of constituencies like East Belfast, North Antrim, South Antrim and East Antrim. Perhaps the Member thinks that, in order to represent those areas, we should draw the border there as regards the European Union. Maybe County Antrim should stay part of the United Kingdom and the rest should stay in the European Union. That is the logic of saying that we should divide the country into certain areas. Maybe we should carve off the eastern quarter of Belfast: it should stay out of the European Union, and the other three quarters should stay in. That is the logic of those who seek to divide us. Where does it end? Does London secede from the Union too? That is the logic of our friends who cannot accept the democratic will of the people in action.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member's motion talks about "public concern", and I accept that there is public concern. I also accept, however, that we have just come out of the biggest democratic exercise conducted in this country since the 1975 referendum that affirmed our position in Europe.”
“Given the contribution that we have just heard, I am almost tempted to open by asking, "What is the point in having cake if you cannot eat it?". <BR /> <BR />I feel that I need to reiterate some basics. Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom. Every party represented in the Chamber accepts that Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom. The people of the United Kingdom as a whole were afforded the opportunity to have their say on this country's continuing membership of the European Union. From John o'Groats to Land's End, from Newry to Strabane and from London to Londonderry, every corner of the United Kingdom and every citizen had the opportunity to cast their ballot and have their say on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union.”
“I say to the Member, very briefly, that the ease with which people interchange the word "Zionist" for the word "Jew" is deeply disturbing.”
“Thank you. I am absolutely happy to acknowledge that that is the case with the local community. In the communities that I represent, I have seen occasions when a dreadful attack takes place, and an entire community can be branded like that as a racist ghetto, usually on the front page of certain newspapers, an allegation that is completely removed from the reality of the situation on the ground.”
“We must all recognise that those of us in positions of responsibility have a role to play, and I believe that that is the case for every Member of this House: that we are committed to delivering a society in which everyone feels safe, secure, valued —”
“I think that there is broad agreement in this debate about the direction in which we want to travel, and that there is a recognition of the need to travel it.”
“We talked yesterday in the House about the circumstances that have forced people to flee Syria, and I would like to believe that, were I ever confronted with circumstances similar to those that those people are facing, friendly neighbours would let me in. <BR /> <BR />Coordinated action across government is evidenced even this week. Hate Crime Awareness Week, involving the Executive Office, the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Victim Support, the Probation Board, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and the Department of Justice, shows that the Government take our responsibility seriously in these areas, and we are determined to act to protect all our communities from fear or persecution. <BR /> <BR />Once again, I thank Members for the contributions that they have made.”
“So we recognise in government the valuable and positive contribution that people make. It is important that it is put on record that that is the case. Through the racial equality strategy, the minority ethnic development fund, the crisis fund, the racial equality subgroup and all the other programmes that the Government are responsible for, we give a lead on tackling racism and working to create a place in which every person feels safe and secure. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland is a compassionate place and a compassionate society. Over 200 people have been settled here under the vulnerable persons relocation scheme. These people are here because they are fleeing a hellish war zone.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not believe that any child is born hating people. Attitudinally, children see no difference between each other. I have seen this in the case of my own children. My daughter is in P2 and my son is in P1, and they both have classmates whose parents came from beyond our shores, and they see no difference between the children in their class who are Polish or Lithuanian and themselves. <BR /> <BR />All around Belfast, we see the positive contribution that has been made by people born beyond our shores. In south Belfast, the most well-established ethnic minority community is, of course, the Chinese. The Chinese people came to Belfast and invested in our city at a time when nobody wanted to and when the heart was literally being ripped out of the city.”
“I am glad to speak in this debate. You will know that I am very proud to be from Belfast, as are other people in this room. I am very proud that Belfast enjoys a well-deserved reputation of being in the forefront of being a welcoming and kind city with welcoming and kind people. We can take pride in the fact that the people of Belfast elected a Jew from Hamburg to be the Lord Mayor of their city at a time when Jews across Europe and, indeed, on this island were being subjected to pogroms and persecution. <BR /> <BR />We can be proud of the fact that civil and religious liberty is afforded to all our citizens, whether they be Jew, Muslim or Christian. I believe very much in the words of Shimon Peres, who said that we are all Abraham's children, and those rights that I ask of others, I would give to them.”
“Does the Member agree that the disgusting attack in the City Cemetery was merely the culmination of a campaign directed against the Jewish community in Belfast that goes back a long way? We have not only kids from Israel working on the Dead Sea products stall in Castle Court being attacked but products being torn off supermarket shelves because they come from Israel.”
“The instruments now exist in statute for judges to issue severe penalties to those who traffic and exploit people in the way that the Member describes in his constituency. Does he agree with me that that is what needs to happen in cases like that?”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. At the end of the last mandate, this House, I think by 90 votes to 9, passed the human trafficking legislation.”
“Does the Member accept that using language that at least implies that refugees are similar to dogs is perhaps not appropriate either?”
“Whilst the Minister cannot comment on an individual case, will he outline for the House the criteria against which applicants to the scheme are assessed?”
“I thank the Minister for her response. In the vein that prevention is better than cure, will she outline what collaborative efforts are being made between her Department and, perhaps, the Department of Education or other Departments to educate our young people in particular about the need to protect their teeth in order that, hopefully, they do not have to avail themselves of dentistry as much as is the case at present?”
“The Member accuses the Executive of playing opposition for opposition's sake. Is he playing government for government's sake by supporting what the Government are doing today?”
“Does the Member not agree that it sounds a tad silly to stand up and say that it is the Minister's fault that you have brought forward a motion about an issue that the Minister has dealt with?”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. He is, obviously, very selective and wise in who he gives way to. <BR /> <BR />The Member will have heard from various sources a demand for more information in terms of the detail. The Office for National Statistics has not even published the detail of its ruling yet.”
“There are, of course, no certainties, but I believe that that is the reason why officials in the Department will closely examine the issue with the Office for National Statistics. We can be as sure as anything can be in life and confident that every effort will be made to ensure that the decision is reversed, and I believe that that is what everyone — Government and Opposition — wants to happen.”
“I thank the lady for her point. There are few better informed in the House than her, and she makes her point well. It is important, however, to note that the actions that are being called for are being undertaken. <BR /> <BR />One issue that has been raised is, of course, the implications that the determination has on public spending and our capacity to borrow money. That has implications that go way beyond matters of housing, and I suspect that the universities in my constituency, in particular, will look closely at the content of the debate and the subsequent resolution of the issues that have been raised. <BR /> <BR />I think that we can be confident that the changes that the Department will bring forward will allow us to achieve a reversal of the ONS position.”
“I do not want to add further discomfort for our friends at the bottom of the Chamber, but it might be worth considering more detailed discussions with Ministers before rushing in motions that demand actions that are already being carried out by those in positions of —”
“The Northern Ireland Executive are committed to delivering on their housing target, and we are committed to dealing with the issues that have been raised here. The one thing I would say, having read the motion, is that I welcome the fact that it has been acknowledged that the Executive are doing what has been called for. The motion calls for actions that are already being undertaken by the Executive. In an ordinary system — perhaps in a more parliamentary system — it is supposed to be the Opposition who lead the Government, but, in this instance, the Government are leading the Opposition. Read the content of what has been presented to the House: it calls on the Government to undertake actions that are already being undertaken.”
“The ONS is the United Kingdom's largest independent producer of official statistics and is the recognised national statistical institution for the United Kingdom. Its responsibilities, as Members will know, include collecting and publishing statistics related to the economy, population and society at national, regional and local level. The Office for National Statistics independently determines classification decisions strictly in accordance with agreed rules set out in established systems. It is important to remember that when we approach the issue.”
“The Minister of Finance and the Minister for Communities took the issue to the Northern Ireland Executive on the very afternoon that the decision was announced, in order to secure the agreement of the Executive to address it. There is a recognition at the heart of government of the need to secure the derogation. That has been evidenced by my colleague the Minister for Communities and by the Minister of Finance. Officials in the Department for Communities and the Department of Finance are working together to achieve an effective derogation that will allow the time that is needed for all the actions to ensure a successful reversal of the Office for National Statistics' decision. <BR /> <BR />It is important in the debate to note that Ministers in a devolved Government have no control over the Office for National Statistics.”
“As someone who represents South Belfast, I am painfully aware of the shortages in social housing. All Members who represent Belfast constituencies — not only Belfast, of course, but beyond — have found that there is a need for more social housing. The previous Executive met their target on social housing, and this Executive have set an ambitious target of 8,000 houses, as the Member for East Belfast Mr Allen said. <BR /> <BR />I think that Members can be assured of the commitment of the Government to achieving a reversal in the Office for National Statistics' decision, not only because of the statements from the Minister on the issue but because of the statements from the Minister of Finance.”
“I support the legislative consent motion.”
“Whilst I agree with the Minister that there can only be certain circumstances in which the blue and white shield symbol can be deployed, I hope that, in time, when the Bill is passed and the system is rolled out, the possession of the blue and white shield on a facility will become a badge of honour. It says that this is something that the Government recognise as being significant and worthy of preservation. <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, of course, it is to be hoped that it is highly unlikely that Northern Ireland will ever again be affected by circumstances where our monuments, art and archives etc would be in a position to be threatened. I welcome the fact that, more than 60 years after the Hague convention, the Government at Westminster and our own Government are taking action to ensure its effective implementation.”
“The Committee Chairman has given a very fair assessment of the position that the Committee has adopted. Earlier today, we talked about Syria. In Palmyra, in Syria, we have all seen a dreadful example of what can happen when significant cultural and architectural property is not afforded protection. Ruins of an ancient civilisation that had survived thousands of years and inspired awe and admiration among all who visited them, were destroyed in seconds by terrorists armed with explosives. <BR /> <BR />It is in that regard that the failure of successive Governments to implement the 1954 Hague convention should be addressed. I am glad that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has recognised the need for the preservation of our heritage.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. One of the great arguments about opposition was that people wanted to move towards a more Westminster style of doing things. That is precisely how things are done in Westminster with the monitoring rounds. Similarly, the Chancellor of the Exchequer generally gives the Budget to the Leader of the Opposition about 45 minutes before he delivers it in the House of Commons.”
“Yes. I will say that the social investment fund is delivering and will deliver massive improvements to some of the communities that I represent, and those projects were selected independently and fairly.”
“I think we should make it an annual occurrence. Given the rate at which people are leaving the Ulster Unionist Party to join the DUP, Robin might be with us next year, so he would be more than welcome. <BR /> <BR />Today, the Opposition, when they decry the inability to hold Ministers to account, are effectively admitting that they are not up to the job. Some comment was made about the social investment fund. I would like to respond to it, and I have spoken about it before in the House. The greatest criticism that I have of the social investment fund is that it took too long to deliver it. I accept that it took too long to deliver.”
“I am happy to. There have been numerous references to the champagne reception. Look, Robin, I promise I will get you an invite for next year. You were out with us —”
“I like people from North Antrim. It is Mr Allister and then Mr Swann. I like North Antrim: it always sends a good DUP squad here. <BR /> <BR />I hear people saying that there is no proper scrutiny in this place: they are saying that they are failures at the job of opposition. When they say that they want information and access to this and that, they are really saying that they want the Government to do the job for them. Having elected to be irrelevant and on the sidelines, they now want the Government to assist them because being in opposition is too much like hard work.”
“I will give way to Robin in a few seconds.”
“There are probably very few people who were here at that time, but I do not recall hearing then the outrage that we hear from others now about the use of royal prerogative powers. <BR /> <BR />When they say that there is not proper accountability or scrutiny in the House, what they are really saying is that they are not up to the job. This is supposed to be the Opposition. This is supposed to be the power —”
“No. The fact of the matter is that the problems are not as they describe. The fact is that we are now having an attempt by three parties, two of which decided to walk away from their opportunity to serve in the Government. Instead, we are having time wasted with stuff like this. <BR /> <BR />The Member from South Down referred to royal prerogative powers being used. I asked him to give way, and he refused. I am glad to take the opportunity to remind the Member that, when the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP were the largest parties in the Chamber, Mr Trimble and Mr Mallon, the then First Minister and deputy First Minister, also used those powers in making a public appointment.”
“Well, if they started then, why did you not speak in the House on them? The fact of the matter is —”