Christopher Stalford
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“In the United States of America, you have two schools of thought: the expansionists — the people who do not believe that the Founding Fathers should be taken at their word, or that the Constitution should be interpreted in the strict sense; and the originalists — those who do.”
“Let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />The key point in the brief is the "particular circumstances" of Northern Ireland. That is, and should be, central to everything that we examine.”
“I do not think that it ever got particularly bad-tempered, so I am disappointed at the tone that was struck in the opening of the debate and in subsequent contributions, but I am not going to lie down like a dog and take it. I am not going to take the rewriting of history.”
“There is one absolute right in law, and that is the right not to be tortured. That is an absolute right that is accepted as a universal right. How many people did the fellow travellers of the party opposite deny that human right to? So I am not going to take that from any Member opposite when it comes to rights.”
“I have stated my position and made it clear that I think that we have a strong human rights framework in Northern Ireland. We have two bodies, established in law, that are dedicated to the protection of human rights and equality. We are one of the most human rights- and fairness-compliant societies in the world. It is important.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. She and I served together for many years on Belfast City Council, where people from different and disparate backgrounds had to work together because nobody had a majority. That was just the nature of the place. She talked about respect and disrespect.”
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“If we are talking about communities in which transportation infrastructure is poor, bus routes are insufficient or it is difficult for people to access public transport, we should involve those communities. I am sure that Members will agree that, oftentimes, the lack of bus services is raised as an issue in our constituencies; it is raised in my constituency in respect of the like of Belvoir and Milltown. The BRT can play a part in solving that problem, if we have the conversation with people and if it is a community-led conversation that can steer the development of the expansion of Belfast Rapid Transit into that part of the town. <BR /> <BR />A concern has been raised with me about the provision of the Glider on the Ormeau Road. Businesses on the Ormeau Road are concerned about deliveries.”
“At the outset, it is important to state that I support the Belfast Rapid Transit scheme, and I support its coming into my constituency. My chief concern with where things are at present is that, while an active debate is going on in north Belfast around the options — Shore Road or Antrim Road — we cannot have that debate in the south of the city because, thus far, only one option has been put forward by Translink. That is not necessarily the way in which we should do it. I am not suggesting that we go for the model that has been applied in the north of the city of comparing two options. I would like to see the Department engaging in a wider consultation that involves the communities that could benefit from the scheme.”
“I want to put Members at ease by assuring them that I do not intend to use the full 15 minutes that have been generously allocated to me by the Speaker. I want this to be a friendly conversation amongst Members who have shared policy goals and objectives on the issue.”
“In conclusion, I urge Members to uphold the precedent that was set by Members in June 2020 and again in the debate of March of this year and vote for the Bill.”
“This is our opportunity, as an Assembly, to make it clear that, in Northern Ireland in 2021, there is no place for discrimination on the grounds of disability and that people with disabilities will be afforded the same protection in the law. <BR /> <BR />As we conclude the debate, it is important that we focus on what the Bill says and what it aims to achieve, rather than debating things that it does not address. We owe it to the people who are campaigning for the law to focus on it. The debate has been respectful, as I said, and I hope that further stages are granted to the Bill and we can have further such respectful conversations. I urge the Assembly to vote in support of the Bill and in support of fairness, to end a form of disability discrimination that has no place in our law.”
“In 2021, we should not be implementing laws that perpetuate negative attitudes; rather, we should be ensuring that we have legislation in place that ensures that those children receive the protection that they deserve. I hope that Members will reject the opposition to clauses 1 and 2 standing part of the Bill.”
“Absolutely. As the father of a child who has just gone through the statementing process, I totally agree with the Member about some of the inadequacies that children with additional needs face and the fact that the system lets them down. I have no hesitation in saying that we need to invest more in helping children with additional needs. <BR /> <BR />Liz Crowter and Karen Wilson are fighting to refute those negative stereotypes. Karen and Edwin Wilson, who were referenced earlier in the debate by my colleague from Fermanagh and South Tyrone, and whose daughter Hannah has Down's syndrome, describe her journey as a:”
“That amendment, which is not on the Marshalled List, sought to delay the commencement of the Bill. I hope that that means that she agrees with the principle — I think that we got that message today in the Chamber — and agrees that we need to remove that discriminatory clause. However, providing for any delay suggests to me that parties are content for those sorts of terminations to take place until a later date. I do not think that we can do that. <BR /> <BR />The current law feeds into outdated stigmas and stereotypes that exist in our society: to raise a child with a disability is a terrible burden. Those are the stereotypes that parents like Liz Crowter and Karen Wilson have been fighting to refute.”
“I will go further and suggest that the law is more than just discriminatory; in this day and age, it is offensive. It is offensive to people with those disabilities and their families, in particular the mums who are faced with difficult choices. <BR /> <BR />That is why I strongly believe that clause 1 should remain part of the Bill. Without clause 1, there can be no clause 2. As I said earlier, clause 2 commences the Bill. My amendment to the Bill is simply a tidying-up exercise to assure clarity on the commencement date and ensure that people are given notice of when the provisions will come into force. It is a simple housekeeping amendment. There is no craft or design to it. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned, I am aware that an amendment was tabled in the name of the deputy First Minister, Mrs Michelle O'Neill.”
“It is not about statistics and theoretical situations but about real people and real lives. I will not repeat all those testimonies, but I remind Members of Lily, Daisy, Kirsty, Clara, Aiden, Hannah and Nathan, as we debate the Bill today. <BR /> <BR />Let us for a moment consider the impact that failing to pass the Bill could have on people with disabilities. What message would the Assembly be sending to them? If we do not change the law, the message that we are sending is clear and simple to understand: people with Down's syndrome or other non-fatal disabilities are less valuable to society and, as such, deserve less protection under the law. That is the current situation, so if Members opt to maintain such a situation, it is my strongly held view that that is the message that we will be sending out.”
“<BR /> <BR />The current law says to mothers of babies with conditions like Down's syndrome that their child is of less value and less worthy of protection than a baby without Down's syndrome. It is clear that regulation 7(1)(b) is discriminatory. The reality is that, because of this law, people with disabilities in our society feel less valued and, in turn, it encourages our society to view people with Down's syndrome or other non-fatal disabilities as less valued: that somehow their life is less worthy of celebration and protection when compared to those who we describe as able-bodied. Putting an end to this form of discrimination is why the Bill was introduced. <BR /> <BR />When Mr Givan introduced the Bill on 15 March, he set out a compelling number of testimonies from families, who are the reason why the Bill is important.”
“In a debate in June 2020, my party colleague Joanne Bunting pointed out that, in Great Britain, the equivalent section of the Abortion Act 1967, section 1(1)(d), has been interpreted to allow for abortion up to term for conditions such as Down's syndrome, cleft palate or cleft lip, and there is a real risk that a similar interpretation can be applied in Northern Ireland. Regulation 7 is the only ground where decisions are made based on a diagnosis of potential disabilities that a fetus may have and, like the legislation in GB, it allows for abortion up to birth. The law as currently drafted affords greater protection to human beings in the womb who are deemed to be able-bodied than it affords to human beings in the womb who have non-fatal disabilities such as Down's syndrome.”
“This provision admits abortion in the very different cases where the baby has a disability which is likely to be fatal, either some time or before birth. I point out to Members that these cases are unaffected by the content of the Bill that we have just discussed. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is a very narrow in scope. Clause 1 removes regulation 7(1)(b) so that there are no grounds for an abortion on the basis that the baby has a non-fatal disability. The Bill will ensure that all children are treated fairly. That is it. That is the sum content of the Bill. Clause 2 commences the Bill, and my amendment No 1 is to that clause. <BR /> <BR />Why is the Bill needed?”
“Of course, and I asked a fairly straight question and I think people will be able to judge the answer for themselves. <BR /> <BR />I urge Members contributing to the debate to address what is in the Bill, rather than what they perceive to be in it. We need to be clear about what the Bill is about. It seeks to legislate for an area of disability discrimination that rests at the heart of the present abortion law. Put simply, the Bill ensures that children who have non-fatal disabilities are treated with the same dignity as those who have not. The Bill is about fairness. <BR /> <BR />Currently, regulation 7 of the Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations (No. 2) 2020 applies to the unborn with disability.”
“I deliberately did not reference what the Member said in the debate, because I have no desire to cause an argument with her. I am happy to sit down again, and she can correct me if I am wrong, but the interpretation I took from what the Member said in the debate is that she is in favour of abortion up to birth, without exception. Is that inaccurate?”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Carroll and others have indicated their opposition to clauses 1 and 2 standing part of the Bill, so I think that it is important that people understand what precisely the Bill does and what it does not do. Given the nature of the Order Paper today, it was natural that we were going to have a wider debate, beyond purely the focus on the two clauses of the Bill, but it is important that, at this stage, before Members cast their votes, we return to the central content of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />At Committee Stage, evidence and discussion on the various issues also strayed far from the narrow focus of the two clauses and moved to much wider issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to take this opportunity to thank the First Minister, Paul Givan, for his work on the Bill before becoming First Minister. I would also like to thank Heidi Crowter for her tireless work as an advocate for disability rights. Many here have had the privilege of meeting her, and I think that we will all agree that she is a remarkable young woman who has had, and continues to have, a powerful impact on our society. I thank the Health Committee, ably chaired by Mr Gildernew, for its work, and I also thank all those who gave evidence to that Committee. The interest in the Bill demonstrates what an important issue is at stake here.”
“I am glad that that is on the record and is there for people to see. <BR /> <BR />Deborah Erskine spoke of her friend and gave a great example of the contribution that she has made to her life. Pam Cameron spoke powerfully about the voices that have been raised against disability discrimination. Those are very powerful voices and include mothers such as Emma Mellor and Rachel Mewes. Mr Allister, in his contribution, provided us with a clear and easy to understand list of the sort of conditions that are covered by the existing United Kingdom law. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased to have the opportunity to bring the Bill before the Assembly for its Consideration Stage. Before I set out the purpose of my amendment, I would like to make some general remarks.”
“It happened to link the provisions of the Bill to the commissioning of services, and we know — I explained my view, and I am not in any way gainsaying — that the amendment was not called. However, we know that, by tabling it, there has been an implicit acceptance of the principles that are at the heart of the Bill, and I hope that that will continue into the future because I think that this is an issue that will unite the huge majority of people in this country. <BR /> <BR />Sinéad Bradley referenced how she views this through the prism of anti-discrimination, and I think that that is the prism that this measure should be viewed through. In her contribution, the deputy First Minister underscored the position and policy of her party, which had been outlined in previous debates by the Member for Mid Ulster.”
“Before I move into my remarks, I will say that I have sat through, I think, certainly 90% of the debate, and, by and large, it has been a respectful conversation amongst colleagues who have genuine differences on an issue. It has not descended into rancour or acrimony, and I think that the public will be glad of that because that is the last thing that people want to see on an issue as sensitive as this. <BR /> <BR />I will reflect on some of the contributions that have been made during the debate, the first of which was from my colleague the First Minister. He rightly pointed out that, in tabling the amendment that it did, Sinn Féin implicitly accepted the principle of the Bill.”
“I am grateful to the Member for taking an intervention, because he has touched on an important issue. The reason that the Bill has two clauses and is so tightly drafted is to make that explicit and clear and to give people that assurance that that is the inference to be drawn the Bill and that that is what the Bill will deliver. My understanding is that, because the Bill is drafted so tightly, is clear in what it does and is clear in its aims, that was one of the reasons that the amendment that the deputy First Minister tabled could not be accepted for debate.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. In debates and arguments around what are, obviously, very sensitive issues, language is really important, and it is really important that people who are on opposite sides of the debates and arguments treat each other with respect. In that context, does the Member think that it was appropriate for a Member of the House to tweet out a message with the hashtag "KillTheBill" last night? How is language like that, in any way, appropriate?”
“If I recall correctly, during my appearance in front of the Committee, you commenced your contribution by saying, "I do not really have a question as such to ask", and then delivered a speech to me. I do not recall you ever asking me a question at my Committee appearance.”
“I am grateful to my constituency colleague for giving way. In a joint statement, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Midwives, the Society of Radiographers and the College of Radiographers acknowledged:”
“Would the Member be prepared to give way?”
“Will the Member agree with me that it is not good enough for Members who have imposed such additional burdens on business to stand up in this debate and say, "Oh, if the Economy Minister comes along with a plan to ease the burdens that we have imposed, I am happy to vote for it"? That is not good enough.”
“I am grateful to Mr Weir for giving way. The Member served in government from the start of the COVID crisis until relatively recently. He will recall that, at various stages when restrictions were being introduced, the Minister or someone else at a press conference usually told us, "This measure will have x impact on the R number. It will help to reduce it and bring it below one". I may be wrong, but I have not seen anywhere anyone saying, "This measure will have x impact on the rates of infection".”
“I am doubly vaccinated and I wear a mask. I conform to the regulations. I suggest to the Infrastructure Minister that the return on the policy that she is pursuing will be so minimal when it comes to affecting the outcome that it may do more damage than good. The Minister represents one of the most socially deprived constituencies in Northern Ireland. She knows the economic implications of pursuing this policy for some of the least well-off people in our society. She knows that small businesses especially will be absolutely clobbered by the measure.”
“Have we, the 90 Members of the Assembly, lost our capacity for thought, intelligence and a sensible approach to public policy to such an extent that we can think of no other way in which to shape the outcomes that we all want? <BR /> <BR />I wish the Minister very well. I wish him all the best over the winter. I know that he has difficult job to do, and I have backed him thus far, but I cannot support this measure.”
“Of course it will do that. By any logical measure, it creates two classes of people: one with the app and one without; and one with the certificate and one without. Those are two different types of people. Any suggestion that this will not divide society is for the birds, frankly. <BR /> <BR />It is a policy that was born out of a something-must-be-done mindset. Indeed, many of its biggest supporters acknowledged that the best outcome that they can hope for from the policy is that it will encourage more people to get vaccinated. Is there no other way in which that outcome can be achieved without dividing the population and denying people access to services?”
“Are we suggesting that the police should devote their time to it in the middle of winter, when all sorts of issues — road traffic accidents and things like that — arise? Winter is a time of increased activity for the police. Are we suggesting that they be diverted from those activities in order to ensure the imposition of the scheme? <BR /> <BR />There is no precedent in our history for the introduction of such measures. Before now, we had not countenanced the idea of vaccination certificates at any stage in the history of the National Health Service. Given the scale of the undertaking, the failure of any Department or agency to take ownership of enforcement means that the measure will divide the community, regardless of protestations to the contrary. It creates two classes of people. Anyone who suggests otherwise is being wilfully blind.”
“<BR /> <BR />The failure of any agency — be that the Justice Department, Health Department, local councils or the PSNI — to step up and take ownership of this idea is demonstrative of its unworkable nature. Those arguing for it know that they want it to be passed but also that they want someone else to enforce it for them. What is that, then, if not an empty and hollow gesture? How will the passage of a scheme that nobody wants to enforce make the public safer? Who will enforce it? I have not had an answer to that question, and I do not know whether other Members have. Are we proposing that local government officers conduct raids on premises to see whether the regulations have been breached? What does that say about the duty of care that local councils have to their staff?”
“Further to that, the introduction of such measures represents a failure of focus on the Department's behalf. Our job needs to be to encourage people to do the right thing and take up vaccination. This punitive measure will not produce the outcome that people think it will. We should instead be debating how to clear the backlog in domiciliary care packages and tackle the bed-blocking in our already-under-strain hospitals. There has been an announcement about trying to tackle the problems in domiciliary care, but the detail of that is yet to be brought before the House. Instead, the public discourse has been dominated for weeks by this particular issue.”
“Not all experts are unified on the issue. We have seen similar schemes tried elsewhere that have not produced the desired outcome.”
“— I presume that that is a reliable source —”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to make it clear that there is no fundamental dispute between the Minister of Health and me in our shared desire to see COVID eradicated and life get back to normal, and I will have absolutely no truck with anyone who has made disparaging or threatening remarks about the Minister. In a democracy, people should be free to disagree on public policy without resorting to personal insults. <BR /> <BR />The evidence has not yet been produced to show that the passports will work. There is some evidence to suggest that, far from producing the desired outcome, they are counterproductive in encouraging people to do the right thing and get vaccinated. There are places around the world where these or similar schemes have been tried and have not worked. An article in the 'Daily Record' on 7 November 2021 stated:”
“Well, the spirit of brotherhood was overflowing in that contribution. What we heard from the Member for South Down is that there is not a single restriction for which he will not willingly vote. As long as it comes with the imprimatur of the Department of Health, he can be relied upon to trot through the Lobbies and vote for it. There is not a single restriction that he will not vote for. Everyone listening to the debate will have taken that from his contribution. <BR /> <BR />At the core of the debate is a disagreement on tactics, not outcomes. We are all unified in wanting to see the threat of COVID eliminated and society return to normal — at least, I thought that we were — as speedily as possible. There is no contradiction in wanting to see such an outcome and disagreeing with the efficacy of so-called vaccine passports.”
“Does the Member agree that it was disturbing to hear in the Minister's introductory remarks an acknowledgment that the measure will have an impact on businesses and then a request that the Economy Minister do something about it? Having created the problem via the regulations, they are calling on other Ministers to fix it.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. You mentioned officers of the law. What consultation has your Department had with the Police Service of Northern Ireland about the implementation and enforcement of the scheme?”
“I want to ask about the issue that you raised. You mentioned the various means of identification and proof that can be used. How much has the Department spent on the development of the app?”
“It is for the Minister to justify how restricting people will keep society open, but that is a different issue. <BR /> <BR />Hospitality Ulster has just published a press release that demonstrates that there has been a massive downturn in bookings across the hospitality sector. There is no furlough scheme now, and no support is coming. How can the Minister justify hospitality's taking yet another beating over what is a very important time of the year for it?”
“The Member is being generous with his time. I appreciate his giving way. Does he agree that, for the people who go through the process of being examined by a panel, other people in the room and what have you, there is an absolute terror that, if you use the wrong form of words or make one slip in an answer, it is almost like a gotcha moment and your opportunity has gone? That is degrading for people to go through.”
“Does the Member agree that, oftentimes, the thing that is missing — the Member has not used the word, but he is very much driving towards it — is dignity? People are not treated with dignity when they go through assessment processes. While the system should be robust to weed out those who are trying to take advantage of it, it should not be so robust as to assume that every applicant is trying to take advantage.”
“Like other Members, I welcome the tabling of the legislation. All of us can attest to individual constituents who have desperately sought help from Members because they have had a bad diagnosis and are in the grip of a terminal illness. Any measure that can be taken to assist such people and get them the resources and support that they need is welcome, even if it involves the deployment of accelerated passage. When you rush to do something decent, it is not necessarily a bad thing to be accelerated about it. <BR /> <BR />Like other Members, we welcome the tabling of the legislation and support its accelerated passage.”
“Does the Member agree that much of this debate has been characterised by an obsessive focus on technical issues? That is part of our job, of course. At the core, those who are pursuing that route simply want hunting to continue, and it cannot.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. There has been reference to clause 6, and Mr Blair will be able to address this. I suspect that the reason why that clause is included, particularly the provision that Mr Allister referred to, is the deceitfulness that we have seen from hunts in England and Wales, where trail hunting and drag hunting have been used to try to get round the law that exists there.”
“The difference is that we are human beings endowed with conscience, whereas a fox that kills a bird is going about what is natural to it. We can exercise our conscience not to be cruel.”
“Thank you, Mr Allister, for giving way. You say that the Bill is about not the targeting of cruelty but the targeting of hunting. However, the fundamental issue at stake here is that hunting is a form of cruelty, and that is what the Bill targets. No matter about the hypotheticals that have been outlined about dogs chasing rabbits across fields, the fact of the matter is that what we are talking about is a practice whereby packs of dogs chase animals and, if there is a successful conclusion, the animals end up dead and ripped to pieces. That is a form of cruelty.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. One thing that has struck me in the debate is the argument about minority rights: that hunting is a minority pursuit. It may well be, but I am sorry: you do not have the right to be cruel to animals.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Earlier in the debate, reference was made to the Veterinary Association for Wildlife Management. It sounds benign, does it not? However, we were not told that the previous name of said group was Vets for Hunting.”