Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“That is a compelling and persuasive endorsement from CCMS. I welcome its approach to delivering equality of treatment for the controlled sector when it comes to education. That is why I welcome the Executive's agreement on bringing forward the legislation.”
“Not for the first time, the comments of some Members are out of keeping with where the education sector is. They often make politically motivated points despite the evidence, which is what they should be following. I am not surprised that the Member has reported that ill-informed commentary continues to be articulated by some. <BR /> <BR />The Member, rightly, highlights that the Catholic maintained sector has CCMS, which is of greater advantage than what controlled schools have at present. CCMS's response to the consultation was highly supportive of the proposal for a new dedicated organisation to strengthen management arrangements for the controlled sector. The CCMS submission articulated an authoritative and robust rationale. It stated the following:”
“<BR /> <BR />In the interim, whilst we work to progress the long-term solution, I am pleased that a discrete controlled schools unit has been established in the Education Authority to give focus to the authority's duty to provide a managing authority for controlled schools. Working with school leaders, the Controlled Schools' Support Council (CSSC) and other stakeholders, the dedicated team has developed a clear understanding of the specific needs of the controlled sector to tailor an offer that complements existing supports and service provision. It is clear from the public consultation that the unit has been positively received and is having an impact.”
“I brought a proposal to the Executive in June last year to establish a dedicated body to support controlled schools. In the absence of agreement, I progressed a public consultation on the proposals, the outcome of which was published in January. Ninety-one per cent of respondents agreed that support for controlled schools must improve, and 84% backed the creation of a new dedicated organisation. Propelled by that powerful and unequivocal mandate for change, I wrote again to Executive colleagues, and I am pleased to advise that, at the end of February, agreement was reached to permit commencement of the drafting process that will legislate for the creation of a new organisation.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 3 and 9 together. I am grateful for the opportunity to update the Assembly on my proposals to improve the management arrangements that support controlled schools. The controlled sector encompasses half of all schools in Northern Ireland and is the most diverse sector, comprising a wide range of nursery, primary, post-primary, special, Irish-medium and integrated schools. It is therefore of considerable concern that the independent review of education found the management arrangements for the sector and the 150,000 pupils whom it serves to be "suboptimal". <BR /> <BR />Acting on the recommendations of the task force, I commissioned the bringing forward of proposals for improvement in management arrangements.”
“The necessity of maintenance works being carried out will be considered by the EA. Many MLAs have corresponded with me on the one in Rosetta, providing information in respect of it. I know that the church hall is being utilised to try to facilitate the delivery of parts of the curriculum, but a process is being followed to try to take through the works that would be required for that school. When it comes to the criteria, those are dealt with by EA. Often, the decisions are operational. There is a de minimis level of spend for those decisions that people are authorised to take. Decisions about what works should or should not be prioritised are very rarely escalated to ministerial level.”
“Mr Brett has campaigned for Seaview Primary School and for other schools in his constituency of North Belfast. I commend him on those ongoing representations. The Education Authority's (EA) asset management team has drafted the business case for Seaview Primary School, but that cannot be finalised until a site valuation report is received from Land and Property Services (LPS). It is anticipated that the business case will be lodged with the Department for its consideration by the end of April. Should the business case be approved by the Department, the preferred option will be progressed to design stage.”
“In the event that I get increased investment, I hope to be able to move forward on schools that are currently at the pre-tender stage, taking them to construction. That will, however, be entirely dependent on the available capital.”
“I understand the sentiment that the Member has expressed, and I share in the frustration with there being many schools across Northern Ireland that require significant investment. I can invest only what is allocated to my Department in capital allocations, and we are significantly underfunded. That has an impact on routine maintenance, which needs to be carried out in a planned and strategic way. Indeed, that is what the Audit Office (NIAO) report recommended, but we are still having to react and make emergency responses. <BR /> <BR />As part of the Budget process, I put in a significant bid for major capital schemes to be taken forward. I await the outcome of that Budget process.”
“Due to the current capital budget position and the number of major works projects that have been announced but are yet to be delivered, it is not my intention to make a fresh call for new major capital projects in the near future. A number of projects that are at the pre-construction stage cannot be progressed to construction at this time, due to funding availability. I have made and will continue to make the case for significantly increased and sustained investment in our schools estate.”
“This is a much better way to achieve better outcomes for young people.”
“It is because they had a full year of being able to be in the classroom and being taught more about the subject matter by the teacher. That then had a positive impact on their outcomes. <BR /> <BR />Entering young people for qualifications in year 11 disadvantages those who do not get the same support maybe at home or through other provision. It also disadvantages children who have additional needs. Educational psychologists will tell you that, in entering children for those qualifications too early, they are not ready and have not been given sufficient support and that the outcome is therefore going to one where they do not pass the exams. That is not a position that we should stand over, because I do not see how that is beneficial to young people's anxiety, stress and mental health.”
“Retaining modularity in the subjects that the Member outlined will reduce the scale of change for schools and the anxiety around changing those key gateway qualifications, which are required to progress to the next level of education or training, rather than evidence that modular approaches impact on overall outcomes. <BR /> <BR />I do not share the other concerns that the Member highlighted. I encourage Members to look at the data: look at the number of young people who sit GCSEs in year 11 and fail the exams, and then resit them a year later and get a much improved qualification. That is not as a result of their having failed them a year earlier and somehow deciding that they were going to perform better.”
“The last time that there was a review of qualifications was in 2015, so, obviously, this is long overdue. It is necessary in order to have an updated qualification process in place. The cost is £15 million over the next number of years. Year 1 spend will be £2·7 million. It is important that we support CCEA, which is the organisation that will take that forward. It has welcomed the announcement today and is supportive of the policy position that I have now adopted. That is the quantum of funding that is involved over quite a number of years, but the year 1 spend will be £2·7 million.”
“The response was not as the Member has just outlined. I indicated to Mr Burrows that a wide range of views came from the consultation process. Teachers had stronger views on some issues than parents or pupils, and vice versa. My job is to reflect on those consultation responses and allow them to inform, ultimately, the decision-making process. What I have outlined today is a balanced approach. It does take on board concerns that were being raised, and I have reflected that in the policy position that has now been adopted on qualifications.”
“My statement referenced the issue of ensuring that coursework and other work that is completed out of school is authentic and represents the ability of the pupil. In a world of AI, where we can generate statements and essays within seconds, that is increasingly a real concern about the authenticity and integrity of that piece of work. The most authentic way of standing over someone's performance is when they are in a controlled assessment centre sitting an examination. That is the most controlled and authentic way to do that. We are retaining elements of assessment in the core subjects that I mentioned in the statement, but the Member highlights a genuine issue with AI. The world has moved on, and we need to ensure that our qualifications and processes recognise that and adapt accordingly.”
“Not all schools are following that advice, but they should be. Therefore, I am going to have to look at ways in which we can test that more effectively through the inspectorate's being able to report on the schools that are not following that. I believe that the exposure of social media is hugely detrimental to our young people. There is increasing evidence as to why we need to have effective controls in place.”
“I am not sure how social media comes into this. Let me take the last point first. This is not an area that is governed by legislation or statutory regulations; it is subject to policy decisions in my Department. They do not meet the test of being cross-cutting decisions. Members, as we implement this over the next number of years, there will undoubtedly be opportunities for Ministers to engage in it. In due course, I might refer it to the Executive, but it has not been necessary to do that for the contents of today's announcement. <BR /> <BR />I agree with the Member about the genuine concerns that exist about social media. That is why I moved to provide clear advice to schools, wanting them to prohibit the use of smartphones when pupils are in school between 9.00 am and 3.00 pm. I continue to make that point.”
“In year 12, then, their grades improve significantly, but that is because they are a year older and have had a year more of teaching time. We need to reduce unnecessary exams and the amount of resits that young people are taking, and the best way to improve their outcomes is to give them more time in the class, where they are engaging with the teacher, getting better understanding of the subject matter and getting into more depth, rather than skimming through a very broad curriculum in a particular subject. They will get better outcomes as a result. The proposals that I have announced today — well, they are not proposals; they are now policy — will bring the best outcomes for young people.”
“If a pupil sits their exams in year 12 but does not get the qualifications that they require in order to progress to A levels, higher education or a vocational course, they can, of course, resit their exams, albeit that may not happen in the school where they sat the exams in year 12. What someone needs to do if they have not passed their exams in year 12 will remain unchanged. <BR /> <BR />The change is for pupils who sit exams in year 11, when they are maybe only 14 or 15 years of age. At the moment, they are competing with children who sit their exams a year ahead, have had a year more of teaching time and are a year more mature. The awarding bodies' criteria are based on how many people enter those exams and how they perform in those particular tests. That is why so many people in year 11 do not get the grades that they want.”
“I am sorry, would the Member mind repeating the question? I did not quite get what he was asking.”
“That does not help those who come from a non-selective school background, so why would we want to retain that? Let us fight the discrimination in relation to access to universities in the Republic of Ireland. I will have no hesitation in joining Mr Baker in doing that. I am not with him on many issues, but I will remove partition when it comes to access to universities in the Republic of Ireland.”
“The decisions that I have announced make up one of the key pillars of the TransformED process. They will deliver on commitments that I made to bring forward the transformation that we need so that Northern Ireland can compete at an international level and they will close the educational attainment gap. That should be our focus. <BR /> <BR />Non-selective schools often have in them young people from disadvantaged backgrounds. That brings me back to Mr Baker's point about universities in the South. How many non-selective schools have their children sitting four AS levels? Very few. Similarly, very few grammar schools have their children sitting four AS levels. To get onto a top course, which, in the Republic of Ireland, would typically be a medicine course, three A*s at A level and an AS level A grade are required.”
“My statement covered, in a lot of detail, why we have taken this approach. I do not believe that retaining modular GCSEs is in the best interests of our pupils. Research indicates that the structure of qualifications does not impact negatively on overall outcomes, nor does it impact detrimentally on learners who experience socio-economic deprivation or have additional educational needs. Members need to keep that at the forefront of their minds. I am very much focused on closing the educational attainment gap between those who have and those who have not — those who, because of their backgrounds, do not have the same opportunities as others. <BR /> <BR />I genuinely want every school to be a good school. That is why TransformED is driving forward changes to the curriculum, assessment and qualifications and driving school improvement.”
“This is an improvement that is in line with international best practice.”
“As part of the work around TransformED, we have our local experts and our international experts, and we are bringing all of that together. I have outlined how my approach is a balanced one, but there are leading countries at an international level that take a linear approach, including the Republic of Ireland, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Norway and Finland. Our current approach to education makes us the outlier: we are on the fringes. We have not been following the evidence and research on this particular issue, which has moved on over time, but we are doing so now. We recognise what other countries that lead in education internationally have been doing, and we are bringing our education system forward, rather than remaining with a process that does not work effectively and is not good for all of our young people.”
“The process that I have outlined is better, but it is unique and bespoke to Northern Ireland. It is not something that I have lifted from the Republic of Ireland, because I think that its approach is not the right one exclusively, nor is it the English model. It is made in Northern Ireland for Northern Ireland, and I think that we have taken the right position.”
“The argument here is not whether or not we should have exams, and the Member has not made that proposition. There will always be exams, and there will always be an element of pressure. We cannot remove that from our education system. For me, these are the important considerations: when is the most appropriate time for sitting those exams and how relevant are they to what pupils have been taught? <BR /> <BR />As I outlined, a post-16 pupil here will sit 18 exams to get onto a university course, whereas an English pupil will only sit six across three A levels to get onto the same course. How can anybody credibly defend our young people sitting 18 exams compared with six exams to get onto a course? That is not fair, and it is not good for their mental health.”
“<BR /> <BR />In answer to the Member's question, I believe that the changes will create more time and space for greater knowledge and understanding among young people in important areas that can be applied in various skills and sectors in Northern Ireland.”
“The Member highlights how we can create more time to develop important skills. Greater detailed knowledge on particular subjects gives you the ability to develop important skills such as critical thinking and teamwork. I recently attended a private industry event. It was Software NI's AGM, and part of the feedback that I got when I provided the update on the TransformED process was that there was agreement that, too often, we skim through subjects and get a surface-level, limited understanding. Often, our exams are a test of memory as opposed to a test of understanding. Being able to spend more time on fewer issues gives greater depth and knowledge. Industry believes that that is important.”
“The principle of comparable outcomes is used by all major awarding bodies across the UK, including CCEA in Northern Ireland, and ensures fairness when specifications or assessment methods change. The goal of the comparable outcomes approach is to keep grade standards consistent over time so that GCSE or A-level grades mean the same regardless of when or how the exam was taken. By applying controls throughout the awarding process, CCEA and other boards ensure that changes in structure do not in any way distort achievement.”
“No. I absolutely do not expect lower outcomes. The research evidence shows very clearly that, in places where linear approaches have been implemented, there is no indication of any disadvantage to overall outcomes or to any specific cohort of pupils. Common beliefs about modular exams being easier are simply not supported by data. Such beliefs also misunderstand how GCSEs and A levels are awarded. CCEA sets awarding standards to ensure stability.”
“However, if we continue to take the current approach, that means a high level of testing, a high level of anxiety for our young people and a high workload for teachers because of the excessive amount of content and controlled assessment. That would just be repeating the current doom loop that the profession, rightly, complains about and that pupils feel does not best serve their interests.”
“Mr Baker is wrong: the Leaving Cert is fully linear. Coursework being included does not make it not linear. It is fully linear. Members need to familiarise themselves with the outworkings of the systems in other jurisdictions. This is a balanced approach. We have heard the concerns, and, in reflecting on those concerns and the pace at which this change will take place, I am giving significant lead-in time. It will not happen this September or the following September. It will be worked up by CCEA, the awarding body, and significant materials will be provided to schools. All the appropriate professional learning that is needed will take place, and we will be able to phase it in in a manageable way.”
“We need to realise that, for young people who struggle educationally and those who come from a more socially disadvantaged background, the time that they have in front of a teacher is the most critical time. If they are from a socially disadvantaged background, they will not get additional tuition outside school and may not get the additional support to complete coursework that is available to some families and, indeed, can be provided by other people who support that child. Therefore, what I am proposing will create greater equity and fairness, and there will be much higher levels of integrity when it comes to making sure that the work that is completed is authentic and properly measures pupils' performance. <BR /> <BR />I have taken a balanced approach. I did not go down the route of England and go fully linear at GCSE or A level.”
“My responsibility as a Minister is to consider those responses, listen to experts in Northern Ireland, examine what happens internationally and, ultimately, take decisions based on all that information. A consultation is informative in that process. I have listened and heard those concerns, and they are reflected in the approach that I have taken to A levels. <BR /> <BR />The challenge to the Member and to those who want to retain the status quo — the Member did not indicate that he wants that — is that you then need to stand over the current system, which, in some schools, excludes young people in year 13 for upwards of 10 extra weeks because they are not in the classroom being taught.”
“The concerns that the Member raises came through in the consultation process. When there is any change, people will have concerns. That was reflected in the teaching profession as well. For example, teachers were very much in favour of reducing the controlled assessment aspect and coursework, but parents and pupils were less so. There was a tension: on the one hand, you had professional practitioners saying, "We believe that there should be a change in the controlled assessment aspect"; but, on the other, there was a concern — it was perhaps a misunderstanding, but it was sincerely felt — among parents and pupils. There was even a tension in the consultation responses.”
“I will work with Sinn Féin to get rid of the discriminatory practices that, I agree, are prejudicial to our young people in Northern Ireland, but that is not a justification for retaining an inhumane, ineffective qualification system in Northern Ireland.”
“I will join Sinn Féin, as I did when I met the Minister for the Economy, in campaigning for the South to remove its partitionist agenda for accessing its universities. Why are universities in the Republic of Ireland incapable of accepting what the Oxbridge universities, the Russell Group universities and other universities across the United Kingdom, including those in Northern Ireland, accept for their top applicants? When it comes to that issue, we should therefore not comply with the discriminatory policy towards Northern Ireland students, which has been institutionalised by the Republic of Ireland. We should instead take on the discrimination in the South by helping abolish the partitionist agenda.”
“What does it do to the self-esteem and mental well-being of pupils in year 11 who are being entered for exams, in which they are competing against children who are a year older and who have had an extra year of teaching, and are then not passing those exams? How does that help the mental health of young people who, having failed them, repeat AS levels, only for no difference to be made to the outcome? In fact, doing that is detrimental to their A-level outcome, because when they need to be focused on their A2 tests, which make up 60% of an A level, they are distracted by having to resit the 40% component part. As I said, 93% of young people will not see an improvement. That is not the kind of education system that is of benefit to young people. <BR /> <BR />The Member raised a point about universities.”
“I am listening to young people. Perhaps Members have not listened to what is being said about the extreme levels of anxiety that exist as a result of the current system: the status quo. People are saying that those who do not want to see that change made want to retain the status quo. The status quo is a testing factory for our young people. For four years, we put young people through repeated examinations. Evidence shows that only 7% of those who resit AS levels improve their A-level grades at the end of the process. Do the maths. That means that the A-level outcome for 93% of the young people who resit AS levels is not improved. Why would we therefore put our young people through that kind of process?”
“CCEA is the predominant awarding body in Northern Ireland. I think that 98% of qualifications here are awarded by it. When we make the changes, qualifications will align with our curriculum. CCEA qualifications will align with the curriculum that we will be publishing in draft format for consultation in the coming weeks and that will then be delivered in our schools. I can therefore see no reason why a school would want to do an examination from a different awarding body if that examination were not to align with our curriculum. <BR /> <BR />The vocational qualifications that are available in schools are not part of the process. They will continue to be offered in schools.”
“Wales's international performance is not something that we should seek to emulate. I seek to emulate the Republic of Ireland's performance at an international level. We should not be one of only two outliers that have retained the flawed AS qualification. The underpinning issue that was presented — I get it; I heard from young people — was the concern that everything would ride on the very last set of exams in year 14. I have landed in a way that, I believe, delivers a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that will accommodate young people who still want to complete a unit at the end of year 13.”
“The consultation solicited around 8,000 responses. After going through and considering the responses, the Department engaged in three regional conferences that were attended by significant numbers of school leadership teams and principals from across our post-primary schools. We went through all those issues. The feedback on AS levels was that it is not that people want to retain the AS brand; it is that they want to retain the ability to bank a unit of that qualification at the end of year 13. <BR /> <BR />The process that I am following rejects the approaches in England and the Republic of Ireland — the Leaving Cert is a totally linear position — and provides an opportunity to bank a unit on completion of year 13, but I am doing that in a way that gets rid of an obsolete qualification that only Northern Ireland and Wales have.”
“I have retained the modular option and the ability to bank a unit but in a way that will provide those young people with much greater exposure to expert teaching in the classroom from their teachers.”
“An AS level currently contributes 40% to the final mark for an A level. Under a modular approach to A levels, a unit that is completed in year 13 will have a 30% weighting, so the difference is marginal. However, there is a fundamentally important difference. Some schools put out young people in year 13 for two weeks to revise and for one week to sit their mocks in January. That is three weeks during which they are not in the classroom in front of a teacher. They then sit their AS levels in May, having already left school to go on study leave. Some children are, therefore, losing eight to 10 weeks of teaching time. How does putting young people out of school help those who struggle educationally, those who need to have the expert teaching in the classroom and those with additional needs?”
“The Member referred to the Republic of Ireland. We will wait to see what changes the Republic of Ireland makes in the future. However, the current approach in the Republic of Ireland is a totally linear one. Again, I have rejected that position and delivered a bespoke process for Northern Ireland that is built in Northern Ireland and will benefit our young people.”
“That factory line of testing is contributing to anxiety and stress and is affecting the mental well-being of our young people. I have listened to our young people: they want change. I am delivering change that will not only provide better academic outcomes right across the spectrum for people based on their educational attainment levels but reduce anxiety, stress and teacher workload, which is an issue that teachers repeatedly speak about.”
“I have got rid of the old and outdated AS brand, which is detrimental to learning outcomes, and replaced it with a modern, fit-for-purpose approach that can be linear and modular, providing choice to the pupils who want to do it. <BR /> <BR />The Member referred to testing. What he is advocating is retaining the status quo, in which young people at the age of 14 or 15 in year 11 sit exams, have resits, sit them again in year 12, sit more exams in year 13, and then have more resits and sit more exams in year 14.”
“I listened to the feedback in the consultation, and I outlined in the statement how that has been incorporated. We have retained the grading structure of A, B, C, D and so on, rather than moving to the 1 to 9; that came back in the consultation, and I listened to that. We have not adopted what England has, which is a totally linear process across all its subjects at GCSE and A level. I have identified key GCSEs that will retain modularity. I am introducing new A levels on the basis of having a modular approach. The feedback from young people included a concern that, at the end of year 14, everything would rest on a high-stakes exam. I have listened to that.”