Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
The complete record
Every one of 6,258 lines we hold for Paul Givan, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 47 of 126.
“The Education Authority landscape review, which was published in June 2022, gave a comprehensive review of EA's overall operation and governance and the extent to which it effectively delivered against the Executive and departmental priorities when it was established in April 2015. That included an assessment of the effectiveness of the EA's system of financial management and internal control, including demonstration of value for money when compared with the previous regional model. I have spoken before about the need for transformation in the EA. I have been critical, but I have made appointments — some appointments that Members in the House actually criticised me for. We are starting to make a difference, and that is coming to the tune of millions of pounds of difference.”
“This is an Executive-wide approach, yet there is one Minister who is doing the work. All I ask is that other Ministers step up. I will happily take forward the work, but I do need their Departments to provide me with that support. <BR /> <BR />On the continuation of the childcare scheme, we secured £50 million. I bid for more. Give me more and I will do more, but I can only use what the Executive allocate to me when that funding is provided. I will happily institute more measures to support our hard-working families when it comes to meeting those costs and getting more places in our nursery schools.”
“I thank the Member for the opportunity to continue, because I was running out of time. <BR /> <BR />We have also commissioned NISRA, which is undertaking a major household survey. That will provide us with information through data that has been collected from the childcare subsidy. That will inform our next steps as we develop the strategy. We have allocated funding to the Department for the Economy to carry out the in-depth assessment of sustainability challenges. Whilst my Department has delivered on countless measures, one Department was asked and volunteered to support me to put in place financial support for providers. We are waiting on Invest NI to do that scoping work to allow us to provide that support. I listened to some Members being critical, but I have listed everything that I have been doing.”
“One of the most significant developments has been a major expansion of preschool education so that an additional 2,500 children will get a full-time place in September this year. More will follow in successive years.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have invested an additional £7·6 million in existing early years programmes such as Sure Start, Pathway and other schemes that Departments asked us to support, such as the Department of Health's fair play grant schemes. We have also reintroduced the Bookstart programme for Northern Ireland. We are training more childminders. We have enhanced funding for Irish-medium preschool support. We are piloting schemes for additional approved home childcare providers. We have commissioned the Royal College of Speech Language Therapists to produce resources for those working with young children. We have launched a new preschool education inclusion support fund. We have increased the funding for PlayBoard to provide training on the importance of play in early years.”
“I thank the Member for this opportunity because, whilst I could not take part in the debate earlier, I sat in for a good hour. It is useful for Members to be reminded of the significant work that the Department and my party have driven forward in the past year. When we took up office, we secured £25 million of Executive funding. We have been able to provide for 14,000 children, which has far exceeded our expectations. We believe that that is reaching over 90% of children in Northern Ireland who could avail themselves of that support. That is making a real difference in terms of the subsidy. To date, the scheme has provided over £5·4 million in savings for working families. Combined with tax-free childcare, that sits at £11 million.”
“I thank the Member for the invitation to speak to children. I say this to them: schools are a great opportunity for you to develop socially and educationally. We will be there to support you to overcome the barriers that you may have for not wanting to be at school. They can be varied, but support is there. <BR /> <BR />A huge amount of work goes in to facilitating and supporting young people who, at times, have legitimate and very difficult issues to overcome in order to get to school. The Education Authority is there to provide that support. I want those children to be in school. It is the best place that they can be in order to develop. We will provide the support that is needed to those children to be able to facilitate them in our schools.”
“It is a competitive process by which classes drive up their attendance levels. There are updates every week, with assemblies in which good attendance is rewarded. The measures that that school is taking have increased the level of attendance. <BR /> <BR />I do not have the particular figures, but that is an area that we are actively working on.”
“I do not have the precise figures, but the Member highlights an issue that is of concern and on which we are proactively engaging. If you are not in school, you are not able to gain the benefits of that educational environment. Driving up attendance rates is an important issue for us. The situation has been exacerbated as a result of COVID and the lockdown approach. Those who advocated lockdown, denying children the opportunity to be in a school, have a lot of questions to answer about why they took that approach. We are living with the outworkings of that, where children and families have been impacted on. The attendance figures are significantly lower now than they were pre-COVID. <BR /> <BR />To encourage Members, Knockmore Primary School in my constituency has a scheme called HERO, which stands for here, every day, ready and on time.”
“I thank the Member for that, because he is right: making sure that the teaching profession and support staff have the confidence to know how to react in certain situations is important. We are reviewing the medication in schools guidance to make sure that it is as up to date as possible and that there is support in those scenarios.”
“I would be more than happy to meet the group that the Member has asked me to meet to look at the issues.”
“I thank the Member for raising the issue. Through the census return of 2022-23, we were able to identify that just over 3,000 children were recorded as having anaphylaxis as a medical condition. Her constituent is an example of the 3,000 children in a similar position. <BR /> <BR />There is already provision of departmental guidance on medication in schools. We are reviewing that with the Department of Health to make sure that the available guidance is there. To assure Members, all catering staff, for example, get annual training to make sure that they provide the right support for children and young people with allergies. They follow a plan to make sure that the foods that are prepared recognise those differences. The Education Authority is working on the area, and we are reviewing it.”
“That will help to determine whether any additional provision is needed over and above that which the school can provide.”
“The Education Authority's special educational needs inclusion service medical needs team operates a central point of contact for schools and parents who have questions around the inclusion of children with medical needs, including those with allergies and anaphylaxis. The Education Authority advises that, in many cases, advice and support for children and young people and schools on severe allergies can be provided without the need for a statutory assessment. For children in respect of whom a healthcare specialist has confirmed that the anaphylaxis is severe or where a child has significant and complex difficulties, schools or parents can request that the Education Authority carries out a statutory assessment of their individual needs.”
“A clear legal process is laid out as to how to do that. I will continue to support the managing authorities and take decisions, as appropriate, to facilitate that.”
“I outlined the process for area planning. It is critical that the managing authorities look at that kind of information and plan for and address what the needs will be in their community. They must also look at the particular sectors to make sure that provide parental choice in that regard. I responded to an Adjournment debate that Ms Bradshaw secured on the issue, speaking at length on some of the decisions that we are taking to provide that. <BR /> <BR />Yes, we need to make sure that that forward planning is done to meet the needs of the local community, but we cannot take South Belfast in isolation. A significant number of pupils from my constituency access schools in Belfast. It is their choice and their right to do that. We need to consider all those things and look at the implications for other schools.”
“Where I need to take decisions to facilitate that, I absolutely will.”
“I am happy to speak on that, Mr Speaker. I thank the Member for the work that she does to represent her constituents. I understand that such decisions can be difficult. A number of decisions were taken last week that caused controversy, and a lot of views were expressed on them. Amongst those, I closed schools, one of which was Lack. I do not take those decisions lightly. In taking that decision, however, I made it clear that there needs to be support for the families, particularly the children, to enable them to transition to alternative schools as seamlessly as possible. If it requires temporary variations to ensure that children are placed in a suitable school, I will, of course, take that forward. The Education Authority is working through those decisions and seeking to support those families and children.”
“When I looked at the overall post-primary admissions process, I saw that 12 children remained to be placed in South Belfast but a total of 45 year 8 places remained available. Places are not always in the parents' school of choice, and I recognise that that can create tension and cause difficulty. We need to look at those things in the round, however, and consider the implications for all schools.”
“That is a valid point. I know about that from my constituency, where there are two grammar schools that are heavily oversubscribed, so that often people are not able to get into the school of their choice, which, at times, creates frustration. The issue that the Member has articulated in relation to South Belfast is reflected in other constituencies. <BR /> <BR />When we consider increasing enrolment in some schools — we have been and still are doing that in South Belfast to address some of the capacity issues — we need to take into account what impact that could have on another school. The process always involves looking at the implications of development proposals to increase enrolment and what they might mean for the wider area. Such things are not often straightforward.”
“Area planning is the process of strategic planning of primary and post-primary education provision. The process has been developed to support the implementation of the sustainable schools policy. The Department requires the statutory planning authorities — the Education Authority and the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools — working with the managing authorities and the sectoral support bodies, to identify future education needs and develop solutions to meet those needs on an area basis.”
“We need to make sure that terms and conditions are attractive and that teachers can be supported in the working environment, which we can do through a number of measures. As I reform the education system, we will look at curriculum and ways in which we carry out assessment. Key to that will be teachers' professional development and empowering our teachers who want to be provided with that support to carry out their job. I am determined that we seek to do that.”
“I am not aware of salary being an issue in attracting people to Irish-medium schools. There is an issue with how we make sure that people who are qualified and proficient in the Irish language are able to deliver education through that medium. The Department recognises that that is a particular issue for Irish-medium schools, and work is being done to make sure that we provide support. For example, the reductions in the number of placements in our teacher training colleges did not apply to the Irish-medium sector. That recognised the needs of the sector and the legal duties on the Department in that respect. <BR /> <BR />I recognise that that is an issue for Irish-medium. It is an issue for some other subjects at post-primary level when it comes to attracting staff.”
“That is why I unashamedly make the case for additional resource for the Department of Education. <BR /> <BR />We want to attract people into the profession. It is a deeply valued profession. People often go into it because it is vocational, and we should never take that for granted. We should always pay them the appropriate salary to reflect their contribution to our children and young people, who, ultimately, are the future. We have workforce strategies in place. We are struggling to recruit people to teach particular subjects at post-primary level. That requires us to look at those issues, but I want to make sure that we pay our workforce the right rate to reflect the important work that they do. I will continue to seek to do that in the years ahead.”
“I thank the Member for that question. Every year, we seek to review and reach a settlement on pay. A short time after the Executive's restoration, teachers' pay increased by over 10%. That was backdated. We resolved the industrial action by our support staff and delivered a significant increase in their pay. We review pay every year. I want that to happen sooner, but we have not been in a position to move forward, because the Department of Education has not had the funding to do so. I have had to work to identify what funding there could be. That will require difficult decisions for me, as a Minister, and I have no doubt that Members will criticise me for the decisions that I will need to take, but we are prioritising teachers' pay. That will have implications for the next financial year, because there will be a cumulative impact.”
“In England, pay progression is subject to an annual performance review by the employer, so a teacher may not move up. It is important that we recognise that there is a different context in Northern Ireland. The exceptions to the directed working time budgets are tighter in England. There is greater flexibility in Northern Ireland. When looking at pay, it is not as simple as saying, "We demand pay parity with England", because the terms and conditions are not like for like. We need to find solutions to such issues that recognise the legal framework in Northern Ireland.”
“We are incredibly fortunate in this country: teaching is a valued profession here and we have high levels of application to all our initial teacher training colleges. As an Executive, we want to attract the brightest and best to the profession. I and the Executive support that position. Northern Ireland negotiates terms and conditions through the management side, which is made up of employers such as the Education Authority, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and others. We negotiate those terms and conditions for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />When a pay settlement is reached in England, the terms and conditions for teachers there are not the same as those in Northern Ireland. For example, in Northern Ireland, there is a legal right to automatic pay progression, so teachers here automatically move up their scales.”
“A programme of work has been prepared, grouping the recommendations that are in progress and those that can be progressed with existing resources into themes, one of which relates to school leaders. I will continue to do all that I can to progress those measures and to secure the funding and resources that are needed to provide a pay settlement. I will work with the unions to get a resolution over the next number of weeks.”
“I thank the Member for that question. Three of the four unions balloted purely on the pay issue, but one union included issues to do with workload. My original response highlighted issues to do with workload, including commitments that were made and work streams that we have been taking forward. <BR /> <BR />A timetable for the implementation of the areas that can be progressed, immediately and over the short to medium term, has been agreed with the trade unions. The focus of both management side and the NITC is to determine the areas of work that, once revised and implemented, will have the potential to impact positively on working practices in the education sector.”
“I know that it is a shared aim of all of us in the House to support teachers and the wider support staff, and I know that the Executive want to do that.”
“My team is meeting the unions right now, and diaries have been cleared to allow negotiations to continue tomorrow and Thursday. We have an opportunity over the next number of weeks to bring those negotiations to a conclusion. I have outlined the parameters within which we need to reach agreement, and I have been working incredibly hard to try to identify the funding that we need in order for a formal pay offer to be made. I will continue to do that. <BR /> <BR />I absolutely accept that support staff require support. I met the Member's party colleague the Member for Foyle, who did some work on the role of classroom assistants and provided me with a report. That was very helpful and demonstrated their value, which I already knew. During that meeting, he provided evidence that was helpful to me.”
“I agree with the Member on the hugely important contribution that our teaching staff and support staff make. That is why, when the institutions were restored, the Executive prioritised them. The Finance Minister made funding available, and I worked with the unions to negotiate a pay settlement that resolved a three-year dispute. We increased the starting salary for new teachers from £23,000 to £30,000. We increased teachers' pay by double digits, and a backdated payment was made for that. We also resolved the industrial dispute by support staff through the pay and grading review, and that has resulted in significant pay increases for all support staff. <BR /> <BR />We are now trying to resolve the issue for the current financial year. I am engaging in good faith to get a resolution.”
“<BR /> <BR />The workload agreement, TNC 2024/2, is effective in providing clarification, advice and guidance on teachers' terms and conditions to boards of governors, principals and teachers. Management side and the NITC have jointly designed a framework to address the recommendations contained in the eight completed workforce reviews.”
“Four of the five unions on the NITC balloted for industrial action and action short of strike action, and that was due to commence on Monday 13 January. I provided confirmation that I am committed to securing the funding that is required to make a formal pay offer in the context of the agreement reached in the summer of last year in England and Wales and on the understanding that we secure agreement on a sustained period of stability, free from industrial action, including action short of strike, in our schools. As a result of that, the four trade unions agreed to suspend their industrial action for four weeks to allow further discussion aimed at finalising the ongoing pay negotiations.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 4 and 8 together. <BR /> <BR />Through the Teachers' Negotiating Committee (TNC), a joint pay group is operational, and meetings are taking place with employers, sectoral support bodies and the recognised teaching trade unions — represented by the Northern Ireland Teachers' Council (NITC) — to explain to and update them on the current financial pressures in education and discuss the current pay claim from the NITC. The claim was substantially higher than what has been recommended by the United Kingdom Government and accepted by teachers in England. <BR /> <BR />In line with the requirements of public-sector pay policy, any proposals for a teachers' pay award must be affordable, and that is proving difficult to resolve, given the pressures that already face the Education budget.”
“The maintenance officer agreed, in consultation with the school and the term service contractor, a programme of works to address those immediate health and safety issues. I trust that that work will be expedited with the urgency that it requires. If that is not the case, I will absolutely take up the invitation to visit the school myself, but I trust that that will not be necessary with regard to the immediate need. However, I am, of course, always happy to visit schools as part of the rolling programme of engagements that I undertake.”
“My immediate priority is to make sure that that work is carried out. It causes me concern that nearly £1 million was spent in 2015 and we now have issues around the suitability of what was purchased within the past 10 years. That is not a satisfactory position to be in. I know that legal opinion, including from the DSO, was being sought on Construction and Procurement Delivery (CPD) and how this could have happened. Setting that aside, what is most important is health and safety, and that takes precedence over whatever legal dispute there may be with the way in which this was procured and any potential liabilities that flow from it. <BR /> <BR />The immediate priority is providing support to the school. Education Authority maintenance staff, as I understand it, visited the school last week to review the issues.”
“However, you will appreciate that, due to ongoing budget constraints, minor works are being prioritised on the basis of health and safety, statutory compliance and the need to address urgent and emergency repairs that, if not addressed, could close a school or present a significant health and safety risk. I can assure you that I will continue to make a strong case for the increased and sustained investment that our education system needs.”
“My Department has instructed the Education Authority (EA) to undertake urgent remedial health and safety works to the modular building at Maine Integrated Primary School. The works are being scoped and will be delivered as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />Drainage, structural and condition surveys of the modular building are being commissioned to determine whether any additional, longer-term works are required. Alongside those actions, a scheme is being progressed to replace the walkway and to provide a replacement classroom with a group room at the school. The Education Authority is preparing a technical feasibility report for the scheme, which will inform the business case. Should the school identify any works required to other modular units on the site, it should submit an unavoidable minor works application to the Department.”
“Creating law is one thing; making sure that it has effect and can bite when it needs to is another. In passing this legislation, we need to ensure that it has a meaningful impact for those who need it.”
“I thank the Member for his interest in this subject. He is right to draw out comparisons with other jurisdictions. We have looked at those experiences. England put its guidance on a statutory footing. We will now do that through this legislation, which will contain a provision to allow the Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) to monitor the guidance. The overwhelming majority of schools follow current guidance, but that monitoring will provide us with information and will allow the inspectorate to assess how schools meet the guidance once it is on a statutory footing. <BR /> <BR />In recent legislation introduced at Westminster, England is looking at limiting and prescribing the number of items that constitute a school uniform and PE kit. I am sure that Members will want to consider that as part of the legislative process.”
“I confirm to the Member that I will be seeking to take a power in the legislation to introduce a cap. We have consulted on that. It is important, and I am sure that the Education Committee will look into it. What will be the consequences of a cap? Some evidence suggests that a cap can, at times, suggest a limit for schools to reach, rather than keep costs down. There are commercial market considerations, and I have no doubt that the Committee will want to hear from retailers as it considers the issue. I can confirm, however, that the legislation will contain provision that would enable a cap to be brought into place.”
“I would then expect the legislation to come into operation in autumn 2025, but I am entirely at the mercy of the Assembly and the Education Committee in fulfilling that time frame. Once implemented, however, the legislation will have a positive impact in trying to help hard-pressed working families to meet the costs of school uniforms and the associated PE kits.”
“I thank the Member for raising this important issue. The timeline is that I will bring the draft Bill to the Executive to seek their agreement to introduce it, and, as soon as that is granted, I will bring it to you, Mr Speaker, and confirm a date for its introduction. Standing Orders allow a minimum number of timescales between the various stages of Assembly scrutiny, so it is my hope that I can bring the draft Bill to the Executive at our first meeting in February. <BR /> <BR />Upon introduction and then subject to the way in which the Education Committee and the Assembly decide to deliberate on the Bill, there would be the potential to complete all the Assembly stages before the summer recess.”
“Once that is done, I will provide the Executive with the draft Bill, seeking agreement to it and to its introduction in the Assembly. When I receive that agreement, I will write immediately to the Speaker to confirm a date as soon as possible to introduce the Bill. I will then look forward to working with Assembly colleagues to progress the legislation and make a difference for those families who are most in need of our assistance.”
“I wrote to my Executive colleagues on 18 November last year setting out the policy proposals underpinning a school uniforms Bill and seeking agreement for my Department to formally engage with the Office of the Legislative Counsel (OLC). I received Executive agreement on 5 December last year. The Bill's underpinning policy proposals have been consulted on, receiving a high level of support across the almost 7,500 consultation responses. Those included responses from the online survey, children and young people and a range of organisations. The consultation report was published on 12 December last year and is available on my Department's website. <BR /> <BR />The draft school uniforms Bill, which will make departmental guidance statutory, is being finalised.”
“That is why the Department is committed to conducting a wider review of the operation of the transformation process to ensure that it is working effectively. <BR /> <BR />I thank Members for allowing us to talk about these issues outside of yesterday's debate. I am sure that we will also do that in other forums. That is important because, on these things, although we may not entirely find a consensus, there will not be a lot that we differ on in terms of the inclusive schooling environment that we want, which is open to all, irrespective of the official sector that it comes from. Sharing and inclusivity is something that I think that we all subscribe to. Certainly, I do, as a Minister, and I am happy to continue that conversation with colleagues in due course.”
“I appreciate that. Thank you. Hopefully that will enable me to conclude my remarks. <BR /> <BR />Integrated education has achieved a balance of religious backgrounds at system level and continues to do so, yet increasingly there are new questions to be answered. If a school has overwhelmingly drawn pupils from one community, what should be the considerations for its transformation to an integrated school? If integration is now to be primarily about ethos and not about bringing two communities together, what does that mean in the current law? In turn, what does that mean for an integrated school that has children who are largely from one community background? Those are important questions for us to consider.”
“OK. There are some other points that I was going to make but, for the purposes of —.”
“The aspiration for the main communities to each comprise 40% of an integrated school's enrolment is enshrined in the NICIE statement of principles. Those numerical targets are not arbitrary; they are rooted in a commitment to equality of status between communities within the integrated school. In keeping with the equality criterion and contact theory, that helps to create the conditions for positive interaction and an improvement in intergroup relationships. <BR /> <BR />I am conscious of the time. Ten minutes is the limit.”