Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“The updated strategy and action plan will set out a clear vision to create a vibrant and supported network of sustainable integrated schools, providing high-quality integrated education to children and young people. The vision is underpinned by five strategic aims, which are, in turn, supported by clear targets and actions. <BR /> <BR />However, there is also an important question to ask about the nature and direction of integrated education and its USP in the changing world of the 21st century. The current legislation is clear: integrated education includes "the education together" of "reasonable numbers" of Catholics and Protestants. That has been a defining legal and, indeed, core principle and feature of the integrated movement since its inception.”
“Integrated education is designed to provide opportunities for children and young people from different community backgrounds to learn together, and it has an important role to play in that process. The number of pupils accessing integrated education continues to grow. Over 27,000 pupils are now enrolled in 73 integrated schools. That represents over 6,000 additional places in the past 10 years. I assure Members that I take my Department's statutory duty to "encourage, facilitate and support" integrated education extremely seriously. My officials are developing an updated integrated education strategy and action plan in collaboration with key stakeholders. A consultation on the updated strategy and action plan will be launched in the coming weeks.”
“Such visits have cemented my view that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to delivering a high-quality education. Education in Northern Ireland is based on the guiding principle, set out in law, that children are educated, as far as possible, in accordance with the wishes of their parents. Diversity and choice are a strength of our education system, not a weakness. Every child, every school and every sector are important and valued in our education system. They all have key roles in building a reconciled and shared society, which is a key priority for me and our Government.”
“My Department has never before led the capital development of a newly established integrated school, as schools previously had to demonstrate capital viability before receiving investment. Members have raised other issues specifically about those schools, and I will come back to Members on those in more detail. <BR /> <BR />I turn to the wider approach to developing integrated education. Over the past 10 months, I have been out visiting schools of all types and from all sectors, in South Belfast and across Northern Ireland, and witnessed the excellent work that they are doing. In recent months, I visited Methodist College in South Belfast. Whilst it is not designated as an integrated school, it educates a diverse range of children from a wide range of community and ethnic backgrounds.”
“The appointment of a design team for that project is now almost complete. The integrated estate has benefited from and will continue to receive significant levels of capital investment. <BR /> <BR />I know that Members are particularly concerned about the development of the mid Down integrated post-primary school. My officials are taking a proactive approach to that school since approval of the development proposal late last year, and have been liaising with NICIE and the mid Down steering group. A site search has been completed by LPS, and two potential sites, including one in the Carryduff area, have been identified. A project brief is being prepared for the appointment of an integrated consultancy team to complete feasibility studies on the suitability of those two sites.”
“He remarked yesterday that I had taken money away, characterising unfairly the outworkings of the UK Government's decisions on Fresh Start. I demonstrated my commitment to Forge Integrated Primary School and other integrated schools by moving them into my Department's major capital works programme. The project for Forge Integrated Primary School aims to provide a new-build school at the former Knockbreda High School site in Belfast. The design of the new building is progressing, and discussions are ongoing with Belfast City Council as part of the pre-application process for submission of a planning application. <BR /> <BR />Last year, I was pleased to lift the pause on planning for seven of the highest-priority new-build projects announced in 2022, including the project for Malone Integrated College.”
“My Department is, therefore, committed to gathering more comprehensive evidence that will inform a detailed report on the demand for integrated education, which will provide the foundation for informed decision-making. <BR /> <BR />Before I turn to the wider issue of developing integrated education, I will mention some of the accommodation issues for integrated schools in the South Belfast constituency. In recent months, as I touched on earlier, we have addressed the issue of RAAC at Cairnshill Primary School. I am delighted that all the required works have been completed. Other integrated schools in the constituency have also been prioritised for investment. <BR /> <BR />Following the removal of Fresh Start funding by the UK Government, I demonstrated my commitment to Forge Integrated Primary School. Mr O'Toole is not here.”
“Notably, Lagan College, which the Chair of the Education Committee has claimed authority on, sits in the Strangford constituency but has a large catchment area, including South Belfast, and it is regularly oversubscribed. The approval of the new mid Down integrated post-primary school aims to address that unmet demand for integrated education. <BR /> <BR />We all know that parents make school choices for a range of issues. It is not simply about a choice of sector — popular high-performing schools with strong reputations in all sectors are frequently oversubscribed. Demand for a particular school does not necessarily equate to demand for a particular school management type.”
“For September 2024, there were 180 applications for 165 places in the four existing integrated primary schools, but only one school, Lough View Integrated Primary School, was oversubscribed. The transformation of Cairnshill Primary School will create another 83 integrated primary-school places annually to help meet the unmet need. However, Lough View Integrated Primary School may, of course, remain oversubscribed. At post-primary level, there are places available at Malone College, where, I note, there were 129 first-preference applications for 130 places this year, indicating that demand is in line with supply. <BR /> <BR />There are also integrated schools outside South Belfast that enrolled significant numbers of pupils from that constituency.”
“<BR /> <BR />In June 2024, I was delighted to approve the transformation of Cairnshill Primary School, creating over 500 new integrated places and increasing the number of integrated primary-school places in South Belfast by no less than 47%. No one mentioned it yesterday — that is the nature of the to and fro of politics — but I approved that at Cairnshill. I went to the school and met the principal. It is the only school that was found to have reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete (RAAC), and it has had to go through the pretty traumatic experience of dealing with that. In that meeting, I was able to give the board of governors and the principal the news that I had approved the transformation of the school to integrated status. <BR /> <BR />Demand for integrated education is a complex issue, and we see that in South Belfast.”
“I want to address the issues in South Belfast, and, if time permits, I will pick up the wider issues that some colleagues have touched on of integration and how my Department is developing that. <BR /> <BR />Let me turn to South Belfast. As colleagues have mentioned, there are six integrated schools in South Belfast: Cranmore Integrated Primary and Nursery School, Forge Integrated Primary School, Harding Memorial Integrated Primary School, Lough View Integrated Primary and Nursery School and, most recently, Cairnshill Primary School, as well as Malone Integrated College. At the outset, I ask Members to join me, as they have done, in paying tribute to each of those schools and to integrated schools across Northern Ireland for their work in educating children and young people from different backgrounds together.”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I thank the Member for South Belfast Paula Bradshaw for securing the Adjournment debate and for setting its tone. It was refreshing to have the conversations that we have engaged in outside the heat of yesterday around specific decisions. Mr O'Toole has left the Chamber, but I was reminded of Paul and the conversion on the road to Damascus — it was remarkable after yesterday's commentary — because I agree with him. There are amazing Catholic maintained schools. There are amazing controlled schools. I only wish that some Members had said that yesterday in articulating their point about integrated schools. The debate today has been much more nuanced.”
“<BR /> <BR />Relationships and sexuality education is a crucial part of promoting healthy relationships. I am committed to ensuring that we have a fit-for-purpose curriculum for RSE and, indeed, every subject area that carefully builds on and sequences children's key knowledge and understanding of those important issues as they progress through their education.”
“However, I am concerned that the best approaches to curriculum and pedagogy should come not from politicians but from educationalists, who are well informed about the development of a well-sequenced, communicative and thoughtful learning experience. I also highlight the fact that my officials have been part of the Gillen review implementation group since 2020. Three out of the four actions that were assigned to my Department have been completed. Work on addressing what are commonly referred to as "rape myths" will be taken forward under the leadership of the Department of Justice, with input from CCEA as needed. I am also fully committed to supporting the delivery of the strategic framework to end violence against women and girls. That will be reflected in the plans and actions that my Department will take forward.”
“We need a new approach to the curriculum in Northern Ireland that continues to limit unnecessary prescription but specifies the key knowledge and accompanying skills that every child should expect to master in core subjects at every Key Stage. That revised approach is vital for RSE, as well as all other areas of the curriculum. Focus, rigour and coherence are key curriculum design principles in all top-performing nations, with crucial topics being identified and ordered in a logical way to create well-structured progression for educational experts, not long lists of contemporary issues that politicians and interest lobbies identify. <BR /> <BR />That brings me neatly to one of the amendments. I note the Committee's inquiry, which will, no doubt, gather important evidence from stakeholders.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members will know that I have engaged Lucy Crehan to carry out a focused review of the design and delivery of the Northern Ireland curriculum. Our current skills-based curriculum was introduced in 2007. Areas of the current curriculum lack clarity on the core knowledge and skills to be developed. Critically, in every area of learning, pupils' experiences of the curriculum may, therefore, vary significantly from school to school, depending on the leadership approach to curriculum development. I want to ensure that every child is taught a broad, ambitious and knowledge-rich curriculum that develops their learning in a well-sequenced and explicit manner. Such an approach will also support our teachers with high-quality resources.”
“— and even serve as an impediment to learning. <BR /> <BR />I am not going to give way to the Member. Thank goodness that he does not have responsibility for RSE in our schools. Never would I want my children to be subject to the kind of approach that he would take to RSE. I will not give way to that Member. <BR /> <BR />The OECD is also very clear about two issues: students need to learn deeper, not more; and subjects should not simply be independent blocks, but rather interdependent pieces of puzzle to create a coherent whole with opportunities for cross-curricular learning on key concepts. That is why I am keen not to isolate RSE from the reality of the wider school curriculum by establishing a separate one-issue task force. Rather, I wish to consider it coherently as an integral part of my wider review of the curriculum.”
“Curriculum overload can be a stressor to students and teachers —”
“Interest groups, politicians and Governments put increasing pressure on the school curriculum to change in response to these multiple issues and competing demands. At the same time, the school curriculum lacks the space to easily add new content without causing overcrowding. While schools have a role to play — an important role — we must be careful not to burden them with being the sole agents of change. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has raised particular concerns in that regard. An overloaded curriculum can put pressure on teachers to teach an excess of material, potentially risking superficial content coverage. Students may also feel stress and pressure due to a lack of time to consider issues thoroughly. That, in turn, can undermine their ability to engage in deeper learning.”
“<BR /> <BR />Teachers know best how to teach, how to convey knowledge effectively and how to unlock understanding. In order to bring the curriculum to life, teachers need the space to create lessons that engage their pupils, and children need the time to develop their thinking and to retain and apply knowledge. I would be wrong, therefore, not to note my concern about the growing tendency, not just in Northern Ireland but globally, to place unrealistic expectations on schools to solve every issue that faces society. Our rapidly changing world places new demands on society, especially the education sector, on issues from tackling poverty to addressing family breakdown to the challenges of the digital age to violence against women and girls. There is an increasing, pervasive belief that schools alone can, and should, provide the solutions.”
“That includes the important area of domestic and sexual violence and abuse. <BR /> <BR />It is also my priority to learn from, and disseminate examples of, excellent practice that we already see in our schools. Some of those were highlighted by the Education and Training Inspectorate in its 2022 survey on the preventative curriculum. For example, one post-primary school identified a group of year 10 girls who required a time-bound programme on healthy relationships in response to a recent incident. The impact of the intervention resulted in a greater understanding of respect, positive decision-making and a decrease in behavioural incidents. Fifteen teachers also volunteered to mentor year 10 girls to support their emotional well-being, and training was provided in trauma-informed practice.”
“From Foundation Stage, pupils should be enabled to explore themselves, their personal attributes and their own and others' feelings and emotions. Some of the issues to be explored as children progress through school include: initiating, developing and sustaining mutually satisfying relationships; human rights; and social responsibility. In post-primary school, young people are also given opportunities to explore the qualities of a loving, respectful relationship, developing coping strategies to deal with challenging relationship scenarios and strategies to avoid and resolve conflict. <BR /> <BR />To support schools in the effective delivery of the RSE curriculum, CCEA has developed its RSE progression framework to provide a sequenced pathway in priority areas of RSE from Foundation Stage through to post-16.”
“<BR /> <BR />I note that the healthy young adults relationships project report from Ulster University was referenced in the motion, and it is an important contribution to understanding the issues surrounding coercive control and its impact on young people. I pay particular tribute to the young people from the Lagmore Youth Project who played a key role, working with the research team, in developing the report. We need to listen to the views of those young people, and our young people and their families, and be informed by them. <BR /> <BR />I emphasise that learning about healthy relationships is currently an important part of the school curriculum. Children and young people begin to learn about the importance of relationships as soon as they start school.”
“Addressing it is a key priority for our Executive. Schools are well placed to help shape the behaviours and attitudes of our young people and to support future generations to develop healthy, respectful relationships. That is done through RSE but also more widely across the curriculum and in schools' culture, policies and practice. <BR /> <BR />A recent report by the National Youth Agency stressed that young people need more than just RSE in the classroom to develop healthy relationships. It emphasised the vital contribution that role models play throughout the different aspects of young people's lives, including parents, grandparents and youth and community workers. Young people need long-term, trusting relationships with adults to whom they can talk about the challenges and issues that they experience.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the motion and the amendment. <BR /> <BR />I begin by placing on record that relationships and sexuality education is an important part of the curriculum, particularly in developing our young people both as well-rounded individuals and contributors to society. Effective RSE encourages children and young people to value themselves and make responsible and well-informed decisions about their lives. Education about healthy relationships can help to address very serious societal issues, such as violence against women and girls, understanding and respecting consent, dealing with misogyny and coercive control. Violence against women and girls — indeed, violence in all forms — is a systemic and deep-rooted problem in our society.”
“— much more seriously and ensure that her language reflects the sensitivity and the seriousness of the issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />All that I will say to the Member who brought in the legislation is that she should have fully understood what she was bringing in when she included a requirement for "reasonable numbers" of Protestants and Catholics. It was the Member who brought in a headcount approach, not me. The Alliance Party brought it in. I will continue to discharge my duties, as I have been doing, in all sectors of our education system. The Member and the Alliance Party may want to reflect on the legislation that they brought in. The Member, rather than behaving in her juvenile fashion, with the facial expressions and so on that she is exhibiting —”
“I thank the Member for the question. I welcome the opportunity to engage with the Member, who, frankly, has said some outrageous things in the media on these issues. She should retract many of her comments. I advise her to do so, but, if she does not, that is a matter for her. Some of the approaches that she has taken and the language that she has used about people and schools are, frankly, outrageous. I have provided great detail in the report behind the development proposal. That is available to the public. I have responded to many of the questions that the Member, in particular, submitted. I turned them around very quickly.”
“<BR /> <BR />I support the delivery of shared education programmes; indeed, I am under a duty to support them. Schools engage in shared education, which takes place in many ways. Whether in sporting or educational exchanges, shared education is a way for those to happen. There are good examples of that taking place, and I encourage that. As I highlighted in my answer to the previous question about transformation, there are schools that can make changes, and Bangor Academy is one of them. It can change its admissions policy, if it wants to, to give preferential treatment to children from maintained primary schools. That is a decision for Bangor Academy. It can take such decisions.”
“I thank the Member for the question. I have visited schools in the Member's constituency with her. A representative of one of the controlled schools spoke passionately about the diversity in the school and the frustration as a result of some wanting to frame her school as not being diverse when there were 25 or 26 nationalities and languages in the school. That absolutely diversity-rich school has broken down any barriers to attending it. That is what I encourage all our schools to do when I visit them: if your school is in a particular locality and some people feel that they cannot go to it, you need to ask yourself why that is: "What barriers may put somebody off from attending our school, and what should we look at trying to change in order to make our school attractive?" Many of our schools already put that into practice.”
“I, however, must take decisions that are based on the law, which is the law that the Member's party colleague brought through the Assembly that sets a statutory test for reasonable numbers of Protestant and Catholic children. That is the framework within which I must take decisions.”
“<BR /> <BR />Other schools that have also taken forward transformation have, for example, set up stalls at local events, such as Gaelic football events. They bring in speakers from other denominations. They include things like the Irish language. Again, Bangor Academy can go ahead and introduce those different aspects if that is what it wants to do. It does not need to wait for me in order to do that; it can go ahead and do it. There are things that schools can do and take forward so that change can happen. Bangor Academy is in a position to change its admissions policy if it wants to do that. That is entirely a decision for it. I will support it in that decision.”
“I thank the Member for the question. Obviously, the report looked at the issues on transformation. It looked at the case for change that both schools had to put forward to specify how they would address the disparity in numbers in order to close that gap. The case for change that was put forward did not demonstrate how they would address that point. If, for example, Bangor Academy wanted to take forward an approach in its admissions policy to prioritise children from a maintained primary school, it could do that without being an integrated school. If it wanted to increase its Catholic population, Bangor Academy — not me; the academy — could change its admissions policy. The academy can take that decision. It does not need to wait for me to say, "Yes, you can do that". The academy could do it now.”
“It would bring in all those schools in the controlled and maintained sectors that are inclusive and, as I demonstrated that the evidence shows, are more integrated, based upon the headcount that the Alliance Party supported in its legislation, than some other officially integrated schools. We should have that conversation. <BR /> <BR />In the past, NICIE brought forward concerns that some schools that have transformed will not meet the inclusive nature through the numbers of Protestant and Catholic children. Therefore, the sector has raised concerns about schools that do not meet those kinds of numbers. I am happy to facilitate engagement if Members and the integrated sector are now saying that they want to move away from that. I am happy to have that conversation.”
“The Member makes an important point when he highlights what it is to be an integrated school. I have now outlined the responses on that. I have outlined the number of schools that are very much inclusive and open to all. The integrated sector has a specific objective that it wants to achieve for a school to be officially integrated. If the message that is coming through now is to set aside the test for reasonable numbers of Protestants and Catholics, and that is no longer what the integrated sector aspires to, I will facilitate that conversation. I am happy to have that conversation with the integrated sector. However, that would be a departure from the historical establishment of the integrated sector, which spoke exclusively of 40% Catholic, 40% Protestant and 20% other.”
“I cannot answer for how other Members want to deliberately misrepresent and frame the responses that they are now trying to put out in the public domain.”
“I have supported schools from the Irish-medium, Catholic maintained and controlled sectors and will continue to provide that support, just as I have been out and opened schools from the integrated sector and been very much welcomed. That is the right thing, and it is the approach that I will take. I will respect all of the sectors. I will seek to be a Minister for all of them. <BR /> <BR />I understand that there will be some decisions on which even my colleagues on these Benches will not agree with me when it comes to making difficult decisions on schools. That is the responsibility that I have to carry as a Minister, and I seek to do it with integrity and absolute sincerity in the decisions that I reach.”
“Again, I appreciate that the Member wants to frame this in a way that I do not think can stack up. I have outlined all of the evidence that formed the decision-making process that I have had. It is not helpful, on issues with this kind of sensitivity, that some Members seek to frame their responses in the way that Mr Tennyson and Mr O'Toole have in asking their questions. <BR /> <BR />There are legitimate questions that people will want to ask about those specific two schools, and I have outlined the decision-making process that I followed in reaching the decisions that I have taken. I have also demonstrated that I have been a Minister who has approved schools wanting to transform to integrated status.”
“The Member has just demonstrated his agenda when it comes to such issues. He does not say, "Minister, can I thank you for the work on Millennium Integrated School?". I know that he has an interest in that school in particular. He does not say, "Minister, you came and visited the school and have taken that project forward. The UK Government let that school down, but, Minister Givan, you stepped in and helped the school that I campaigned for in my constituency". The Member again wants to misrepresent this and deliberately frame this into something else that, as I have outlined for the past 30 minutes, cannot stack up in any shape or form. To be honest, going into even more detail with the Member's questions only gives credibility to a question that has no credibility.”
“It was the Alliance Party that brought in a deliberate headcount as part of the test. It was not me; I voted against it. The question now for Members and for those who want to promote the integrated sector — I will absolutely take my responsibilities seriously in that regard — is that, if they no longer want it to specify Protestant and Catholic children, the Member should not have included it in her legislation, because that is the statutory test that I have to take decisions on.”
“However, it did not stop with that. There is no full stop. It went on, and the Alliance Party specified in law:”
“I have heard the language used of there being "a headcount". I do not want to be involved in a headcount. I do not go into schools and look at people and think to myself, "I wonder what they are". Who was it that legislated for a headcount? It is the 2022 Act, brought in by the Alliance Party. Its Members shake their heads. Let me quote, because they clearly do not know the legislation that they brought in. It speaks to the question that Mr Chambers has raised. Section 1(1)(a) defines integrated education as:”
“I will be a Minister for all of our sectors.”
“The UK Government abandoned them, and I moved in to protect them and am taking forward those proposals. <BR /> <BR />The evidence shows that I have been a Minister for all sectors, but we should not run down some sectors to promote others. That is why I am frustrated that, when we take forward, for example, the Strule campus in Omagh, which is a world-defining intervention by the Executive, bringing together 4,000 young people from various sectors, the Alliance Party has opposed it at every step of the way because it does not regard shared education as being integrated education. It is campaigning actively against a landmark, iconic shared education programme in a town that bears the hallmarks of our Troubles. The Alliance Party is against it because it does not neatly suit the particular approach that it wants to take to education.”
“The Member articulates a frustration that I have heard from principals in schools that are not officially designated as integrated. Some of that is a result of the language used by Members from, in particular, the Alliance Party. They talk about segregation, and, in the promotion of one sector, they denigrate others. It is not necessary to do that. As Minister of Education, I have sought to support all of our sectors, and the decision-making processes that I have followed, including funding new builds for integrated schools, not least Central Integrated Primary School in Bangor, and taking forward other integrated schools that the UK Government let down when it came to their Fresh Start funding, are evidence and demonstration of that. I brought those schools into my Department's capital programme.”
“The 2022 Act then went on to spell out in law what integrated education is. In section 1(1)(a), it is defined as including a reasonable number of Protestant and Catholic children. The legislation passed by the Assembly sets the test. It was the Alliance Party that brought the legislation through, and I trust that it understood what it was doing. I certainly understand it, and it is my duty as a Minister to make sure that the law is followed. It is within that framework that I have taken the decision that I have taken, and the basis of that decision is laid out in the publication of the development proposal, which is available to any Member who wishes to access it.”
“I thank the Member for her question. There seems to be, again, an inability to understand the decisions that I have to take. Article 92(6) of the Education Reform (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 states:”
“<BR /> <BR />I have covered in a number of responses what it is to be an integrated school on the basis of the 2022 Act and the statutory test of "reasonable numbers". I have highlighted what it is to be integrated on the basis of the information on the NICIE website: 40%, 40% and 20% other. The guidance that the Department held, which related to the 1989 Order, talked about 10%. That was the guidance that the Department produced. I think that any reasonable person would conclude that less than 3% is not reasonable for passing the test that is set out in law, which was introduced and passed by Members of the House.”
“It is an important point to make, because, when the decision initially entered the public domain, there was commentary that I had gone against the majority of the parents at the schools. Yes, that is the case for the majority of those who balloted, and I have set the context as to where parental choice sits in the legislative framework. It is not in the 2022 Act. When it came to it, for Bangor Academy, it was 40% of parents of pupils at that school. It is important that we frame the facts appropriately and do not misrepresent the situation, as some did. It was not just Members who did so, because some in the media also framed the issue in that context, ignoring the legislative duties that I, as a Minister, have to undertake.”
“I caveat that by pointing out that St Columbanus' College in Bangor, which is a Catholic maintained school, has a high number of pupils from the Protestant community in it and far exceeds many officially integrated schools as being integrated but not with a capital I. <BR /> <BR />As a parent and as Minister of Education, I do not want our children going to school looking at the colour of people's skin or the creed or religion that they hold to; I want them going into a shared environment in which they respect one another's differences. I see that taking place in hundreds of schools across all sectors.”