Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“The rise that we provided and that I took the decision on was based on the consumer price inflation index, and we linked that to the automatic increases that will take place. That is the rationale for our approach. <BR /> <BR />We offer more support, rightly so, than other parts of the United Kingdom. They have indicated, however, that they wish to expand the support and, ultimately, try to get to universal provision. However, as it stands today in Northern Ireland, we provide levels of support that are not available elsewhere. I am, of course, concerned that, as other jurisdictions make progress on the issue, we will be left behind. I highlight to Members that, if we are going to do this, it will require additional resources, and that has implications for the current services that we provide.”
“I can only make affordable changes, and, unfortunately, a significant expansion of access to free school meals is not affordable and is unlikely to be so in the time ahead. We face unavoidable cost pressures and rising service demands that the current budget does not meet. It would, therefore, be irresponsible for me as a Minister to commit to expanding access to free school meals in that financial context.”
“I have given way to the Member as well. I am not going to give way again. The Opposition have done enough damage with the position that they have outlined today. Let me make some more progress on outlining my response. <BR /> <BR />What cuts to the heart of the issue is the value of school meals to children, and I agree with that. However, unlike the official Opposition and some other Members, I do not have the luxury of being able to virtue-signal on it. I deal with the financial realities of the world as it is, not the world as we would like it to be. My Department and the wider education sector are under severe financial strain and face a significant budget shortfall this year.”
“I am not going to give way to the Member. I have given way to the Member twice.”
“That would mean multimillionaires' children getting a free school meal, as opposed to just the most vulnerable in our society, such as children who are struggling, working families who are struggling and children with special educational needs, for whom significant investment is required. I published a plan that requires £570 million over the next five years to help children with special additional needs. If your preference is universal provision for multimillionaires as opposed to those young people, I will say this to the Opposition: you have got your priorities completely wrong.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Opposition need to bring forward fully costed proposals. They need to act responsibly and speak to the public about the real-world consequences of motions such as this, if its proposals were to be introduced. <BR /> <BR />Universal provision would mean multimillionaires in our society getting free school meals for their children. If we were to take a universal approach, it would not be targeted at the most needy. If we were in a position to make universal provision available, who would not want to give everybody everything for free? <BR /> <BR />Is the priority the universal provision of free school meals?”
“The Member says that that is my job. That is exactly the problem with the Opposition: they do not see it as their job to act responsibly.”
“The Member has given her explanation. In response to her points, I say this to the Opposition: if you are to be taken seriously, you have to table motions that are fully costed and that highlight to the public the services that you will cut to deliver what is proposed. What is in the motion outlines —.”
“— in the short or medium term owing to the pressures that exist. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to the Member: the very Member who proposed the motion but has been absent from the Chamber for the past half an hour. I will give way to her, despite her not having been in the Chamber for the past while.”
“When Members table such a motion — a motion that would lead to costs well in excess of £150 million — it adds to the cynicism that the public have about the institutions. We know that it is not achievable —”
“I also took into account the views expressed during the public consultation, in which there was broad support for increasing access to free school meals, including universal provision. Of course, I would welcome the opportunity to introduce universal provision, but the budgetary constraints that my Department and the wider Executive face mean that that is not achievable at this stage. <BR /> <BR />I listened to the Minister of Finance speak on Saturday. He talked about the Assembly and the Executive having to get real and take big decisions about raising finances. I say this to Members: while the motion, aspirational as it is in nature, no doubt has merit, Members need to get real.”
“Free school meal entitlement is largely based on households being in receipt of relevant benefits. The Education Authority actively continues to support families who choose to apply for those benefits through the free school meal application process to ensure that their children can access free school meals as easily as possible. <BR /> <BR />Over the summer, my officials completed a review of the eligibility criteria for free school meals. I took the decision to raise the income threshold for those on universal credit to £15,390. For the first time, I have ensured that the threshold will automatically increase in future years in line with consumer price inflation. In making my decision, I recognised the importance of free school meals to many low-income families.”
“First, I welcome the opportunity to respond to the motion on free school meals provision. I start by recognising that school meals play a vital role in supporting children and young people's learning and health. A nutritionally balanced and healthy lunch helps pupils to concentrate and be in the best position to learn. That, in turn, helps with their well-being, development and educational outcomes. However, let us be clear: the benefits of a nutritious school meal extend to all pupils, irrespective of whether it is free. <BR /> <BR />Currently, around 90,000 pupils are able to access a free school meal each day. That support is targeted towards those who are most in need: children and young people from low-income families, to whom that support can make a real difference.”
“Yes, they absolutely should. I heard a bit of chuckling at the question. We have parents contacting schools and demanding that nativity plays be cancelled, not just in light of the Supreme Court judgement. It has been happening for years. There are parents who are vocal and active about saying that we should not have things as minimal as nativity plays in schools. The Member asks a valid question and one on which principals have reached out to my Department and other organisations for advice. I can give him a categorical answer: nativity plays can continue to take place in our schools.”
“We will comply with the law in that respect. The legal framework that exists around this is very simple for Members to follow. The process that we have to take forward sits entirely with the Department, so I will continue to take that forward. My view that the Christian ethos is the primary faith that should be reflected in our education system is not an outlier. My thinking is entirely representative of mainstream thinking in Northern Ireland on that. It is Mr Tennyson's party that is out of step with where people in Northern Ireland are on such issues, not me.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The case was, very clearly, not about secularism in our education system. The court has clearly stated that religious education may be provided in schools. Nor was the case about whether Christianity should be the main or primary faith that pupils learn about in schools in Northern Ireland. The court has explained that the greater part of religious education may focus on knowledge of Christianity and that the Department retains responsibility for setting and planning the curriculum for religious education. We will continue to comply with the law, but we will do so in a way that preserves the values that have underpinned our education system for many years.”
“I will respond to Members when they put forward their positions, but when one's position on the matter is confused — I am not yet clear on the SDLP's position — it is only right that we try to get some clarity. I do not think that anybody will be able to second-guess the approach that I will take on this matter. However, when other Members are not able to answer very basic questions about paganism and witchcraft, we should ask those questions. Alliance has now provided clarity and said that it does not regard those as belief systems that should be taught in our education system. The whole situation could have been avoided entirely had it answered those questions only last week.”
“Yes, the process has been going on for a number of years, at considerable expense to the taxpayer. The costs have not yet been finalised, but the Department has had to set aside a significant amount of money — hundreds of thousands of pounds — for the legal costs associated with the case. That is funding that will be spent not on parts of our education sector but on meeting those legal costs. The final figure is yet to crystallise.”
“They will be able to do that through the public consultation, and I will welcome their input to it. That will be reflected on and considered. The curriculum will then be finalised, and we will follow due process when it comes to my responsibilities on the matter.”
“A parent's right to opt their child out of collective worship should not, nor will it, trump the rights of the overwhelming majority of parents to have their children engage in collective worship in a Christian ethos. Members and parents are entitled to their individual position on the matter, but the judgement does not require that one parent's right to opt out their child should mean that there is no form of collective worship from a Christian perspective in a school. <BR /> <BR />As I take forward the approach on this, it will be for me to appoint persons of interest who will look at the issue and review the curriculum. They will carry out their work, and there will then be an opportunity by way of public consultation for everybody, including atheists, humanists and those who have a different approach, to feed into that process.”
“<BR /> <BR />Now that the matter has been given greater public awareness, some parents will ask how often collective worship takes place in their school, what its nature is and whether it reflects the legislative underpinning that states that it ought to be from a Christian ethos. The issues are being debated much more widely among the public, and there will be much greater interest in the way in which schools operate. As Education Minister, I say to all our schools that they should comply with the law, and the law is that collective worship should continue.”
“I very much confirm that schools can continue with their collective worship and assemblies. Indeed, it would be unlawful for schools to stop collective worship and assemblies from taking place, because the law has not been struck down. If any school has been contemplating doing that, they should not, because that would be unlawful and would rightly be challenged by any parent of that school. In the controlled sector in particular, there is legislative underpinning for collective worship, and there are distinct legal approaches around it. When it comes to the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), boards of governors have greater responsibility for such matters, but, for controlled schools, it is the legislation, not boards of governors, that underpins collective worship. Governors have to comply with the law in that respect.”
“The legislation was not struck down as a result of the court judgement.”
“Well, I am pleased that the Alliance Party now wants to clarify its position. It should not have taken the confusion around witchcraft and paganism for the party to have to do so today. Others will be able to draw their own conclusions about the Alliance Party's social policies and approaches to education. I know where Alliance is on those issues, and the vast majority of people know where it sits on them. That is why, in public commentary, different views are expressed by MLAs who want to be able to withdraw and give parents the right to withdraw from those activities. <BR /> <BR />Michelle Guy has made her point, and I have outlined how we will comply with the Supreme Court judgement in respect of the points that have been made. It will be complied with in line with the legislation.”
“I have outlined the approach that we will take, and I think that it is important again to make clear that the judgement did not say that there should not be a Christian ethos within our schools. Indeed, it said that that can and should continue to be the primary ethos in our schools. That has been misrepresented by other organisations.”
“It will. I will write to schools within the next number of days — my sign-off on the letter to schools is imminent. We will provide guidance. My intention is to do that before the end of this calendar year, by way of interim guidance as to the approaches that we should seek to take, but there is more work to be done on the wider core syllabus when it comes to the curriculum around religious education. That will take more time to do with the processes that need to be set up.”
“All those things are complex, but they need to be handled sensitively, and I will certainly do that.”
“They welcome the opportunity to look at the curriculum. Indeed, in its intervention to the UK Supreme Court, the Transferor Representatives’ Council (TRC), which is the representative body for a lot of the Protestant denominations, said that it would welcome the opportunity to review the curriculum. I have listened to the Catholic Church, which has said that it welcomes the opportunity to engage in the process, including in the 'Irish News' today, saying that the Catholic Church has a very clear position that it believes that its cultural Christian Catholic ethos should be retained, protected and promoted within the Catholic maintained sector. I can understand that approach. It is in line with the convention rights for parents to bring their children up within the ethos of the school that they wish.”
“Pragmatism and common good, yes, very much so. I have listened to the voices that have been expressed over the past week on the issue. I understand that the judgement related to one specific school and the approach that it had taken, by way of the ability to opt out and withdraw. We need to look at what a meaningful withdrawal is if parents choose that they do not want their children to participate in collective worship. How do you ensure that there is an effective withdrawal process? <BR /> <BR />What the judgement does not say is that you need to change the Christian approach to collective worship. It does not say that. We will look through all of this with a pragmatic view to the approach, but I also say to Members that a lot of the religious denominations have not reacted negatively, per se, to the judgement.”
“When it comes to the broader piece around the curriculum, I intend to take forward a review of the curriculum in line with the judgement when it comes to RE. It will take a number of months to set up the body, carry out the work of the review and put in place a framework for religious education in the curriculum. Then we will want to carry out a public consultation to seek the views of everyone in society, including those who are hostile to religious education. Those people should be able to engage in that public consultation. The responses will, ultimately, come to the Department before I sign off on the legislative approach, by way of an order, around the syllabus.”
“Therefore, schools should continue with their current practice, but, obviously, we will work through the various outworkings of the judgement, and I will provide guidance to schools within a number of weeks. I intend to give them a clear view on it in within the next number of days, and that will be followed by guidance.”
“Yes, I will. I intend to write to school leaders in the next number of days on the next steps. The courts will be understanding that it will be reasonable for us to be able to fully assess how we can comply with and provide a remedy to that judgement. I have sought further legal advice on that, and we are working through the various remedies that may be reflective of the changes that could be necessary. I have made it clear that the law has not been struck down: it is still there. That pertains to the current teaching of the curriculum and collective worship. Indeed, it would be unlawful for any school to stop collective worship as a result of that UK Supreme Court judgement, because the law has not been struck down.”
“I would need to engage on what that would look like, because, obviously, where the four main Churches have a role in the curriculum, and will continue to do so, there needs to be a role in how that inspection process will be carried out. I do not have a predetermined view as to how ETI, for example, could incorporate that work within its functions. I will have to look at that because the legislation currently does not allow for the ETI to carry out inspection of religious education because of the distinct way in which the law is framed in respect of the Churches and their role in forming the curriculum and then inspecting on it. That is something that I will certainly look at over the course of the next weeks and months.”
“Well, I am glad now that he has expressed a view that is strong: he does not support witchcraft or paganism. We could have avoided some of the commentary that took place afterwards had he been clearer on that particular programme. <BR /> <BR />On the substantive point, when it comes to the inspectorate, as the law currently pertains, the four main Churches are involved in setting the curriculum under the law. They are also responsible for carrying out inspections when it comes to the teaching of religious education in our schools. I am not convinced that that has been carried out effectively over the years, and the court has drawn upon the area of a more effective inspection process.”
“It is helpful that we have been able to shine a light on what the initial response of Alliance was to the judgement. The Chairperson of the Education Committee has now helpfully clarified that he does not want to have witchcraft or paganism being taught in our schools. I wish he had done so when asked by Stephen Nolan:”
“Therefore, I will have to sign off on any syllabus before it becomes law. I will appoint the appropriate persons, who have an interest in the teaching of religious education. They will carry out the work of reviewing the curriculum, and that will then be subject to a public consultation.”
“However, article 11(2) includes a requirement that the syllabus:”
“I understand why the deputy leader of the Alliance Party wants to laugh that off. It is no laughing matter for a lot of parents in Northern Ireland that the Alliance Party is not able to rule that out. It demonstrates the underlying hostility that exists towards the Christian ethos in our schools. <BR /> <BR />The role of the Department in the creation of the curriculum is set out clearly in article 11(1) of the Education (Northern Ireland) Order 2006, which states:”
“The Member is right. Hopefully, no one in the Chamber will seek to cast a spell on me. I have the quotes of what was said on 'The Nolan Show', and I may refer to them in these exchanges. When the Chairman of the Education Committee was asked about the teaching of witchcraft and paganism, he did not rule it out.”
“There is a valid issue for the inspectorate when it comes to how we inspect what is being taught in the curriculum and how collective worship operates. Again, I will take advice from officials on how we can seek to enhance the inspection process. I cannot envisage how the example that the Member highlighted could happen in Northern Ireland. It is certainly not something that I would support, nor do I think that there are schools that would support it. The judgement does not create the opportunity for it. It is important to state that there are those who have sought to frame the judgement in a way that suits their own particular objective, which often comes from an overtly hostile position towards the Christian ethos.”
“Our approach will involve the responsibility of looking at the core syllabus on religious education in the curriculum. The responsibility rests with me to establish the appropriate panel on which there are persons of interest related to religious education. That, historically, has meant people from the four main denominations: three Protestant; and one Catholic. I will get advice from my Department in due course and move forward with appointing an appropriate body that will look at the curriculum. That will then be subject to public consultation, and I will lay an order on the process for what the curriculum looks like. <BR /> <BR />Where collective worship is concerned, it is clear from the judgement that Christianity can, and will, continue to be the primary religion that shapes the ethos of our schools.”
“I have outlined the basis on which the law exists in Northern Ireland, and I will seek to provide a remedy to the court judgement that is in line with the law. It is important to state that it is as a result of devolution that I am able to deal with the issue — imagine if it had been a direct rule Minister or a Minister from another political party in the Chamber. However, it is not; it is a Minister from the Democratic Unionist Party who will respond to the judgement and ensure that our Christian ethos in our schools is maintained.”
“I will respect the decision that the UK Supreme Court has taken. A different decision was taken by the Court of Appeal, but the Supreme Court is exactly that: the supreme court in the land. The Member rightly makes a point about the wider European Convention on Human Rights and its implications. It would be interesting to see what the outcome would have been if the case had gone to the European Court of Human Rights. Having looked at some other European countries and the way in which they operate, I think that we can draw parallels with other European countries that would be in defence of the system that we have in Northern Ireland. Nevertheless, I will work through what is a complex judgement. <BR /> <BR />I have clearly articulated that the underpinning legislation was not struck down as a result of the judgement.”
“I will write to schools within the next few days on the matter.”
“The case is not about whether Christianity should be the main or primary faith that pupils learn about in schools in Northern Ireland. Historically and today, Christianity is the main religion in Northern Ireland. Furthermore, the court has explained that it is within the Department's margin of appreciation in planning and setting the curriculum for the greater part of religious education to focus on knowledge of Christianity. <BR /> <BR />This is a complex judgement that cannot be ignored. It is important, however, to understand fully the issues before acting. I have requested further legal advice in order to understand the judgement's full implications and will issue comprehensive guidance to schools on both issues in the coming weeks to ensure consistency and legal compliance.”
“It further determined that the core syllabus for religious education does not provide teaching in an objective, critical and pluralist manner and that collective worship is similarly not conveyed in such a way. The court did not strike down the existing legislation, however. Religious education and collective worship can therefore continue in schools, and they are legally required to. Indeed, there is a legal obligation that they must continue. Article 21(2) of the Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 provides:”
“Last week, the UK Supreme Court delivered a significant legal decision on religious education and collective worship in Northern Ireland. I will consider the judgement in full before determining any essential remedies that respect the law and safeguard the role of religion in education. The judgement focuses on religious education that is taught as part of the school curriculum and on collective worship that is held in schools, mainly through assemblies and services. <BR /> <BR />The court held that arrangements for religious education and collective worship in this case breached rights under the European Convention on Human Rights.”
“It has had a transformative impact on pupils' confidence, well-being and engagement, and I look forward to visiting its site at Clandeboye in due course to see at first-hand the positive differences that it is making for children and teachers across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I thank Members for their contribution to this important discussion. By working collaboratively, we can embed outdoor learning as a meaningful component of learning and delivering positive change for children, families and the wider education sector. Outdoor learning is an investment in well-being, creativity and lifelong learning.”
“Outdoor learning is particularly effective when well planned and integrated across the curriculum, enabling children to make connections, apply knowledge and develop critical-thinking and problem-solving skills. The ETI also notes that growing interest in forest and beach schools and collaboration with organisations, such as the Northern Ireland Forest School Association and Eco-Schools, is building teacher confidence and enriching pupils' understanding of sustainability. <BR /> <BR />I commend the work of the Northern Ireland Forest School Association and its efforts in promoting child-centred, nature-based learning.”
“Therefore, although the Ulster Farmers' Union does not offer some of the extracurricular activities that my grandfather provided, it does provide a good demonstration of that outdoor way of life. <BR /> <BR />The Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) strongly endorses outdoor learning. Recent inspection findings highlight that outdoor learning improves children's health, well-being and progression in learning. It helps pupils to manage emotions and behaviours, develop social skills and demonstrate better concentration after engaging in adventurous physical play. The ETI reports that schools prioritising outdoor learning in their development plans see increased resilience, confidence and creativity among pupils.”