Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“The Member is right. The point that I have just made is that schools strive to be inclusive. There are 73 schools in Northern Ireland that are officially integrated with a capital I. There are many hundreds that are not integrated with a capital I. Of the 73, one Catholic maintained school has transformed to integrated status. Some Members on the Benches opposite — Ms Hunter submitted a question for urgent oral answer — said that people need to go integrated. I have not seen some of those Members campaigning in their constituency for schools to become integrated. The evidence shows that, of the 73 that are integrated, one came from a Catholic maintained background.”
“Controlled schools are inclusive. So, too, are maintained schools, Irish-medium schools and schools from other sectors that I have been to. Those schools strive for an inclusive education system.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member is right to highlight some of the information and statistics for controlled schools. Those are important points for us to consider in the broader debate. Let me take Integrated College Glengormley as an example. In 2022, it had an enrolment of 4% from the Catholic population. Nearly three years later, it has achieved 5% enrolment from that community. It is an official integrated college. Of the controlled post-primary schools, 28 have a higher percentage of pupils from a Catholic background than that school in Glengormley, which is officially called an integrated college. There are 67 controlled primary schools that have a percentage of pupils from a Catholic background above 6·4%, which is more than the percentage in Central Integrated Primary School in Carrickfergus, to give one example.”
“I thank the Member for her questions, which speak to the wider issue of how people want to frame this debate. I have been in controlled schools, Catholic maintained schools, integrated schools and Irish-medium schools. I have been impressed by all of them in that they seek to be inclusive and open to all. That is something that everyone wants in their school system. I have never met a principal who has said, "We are here only for this particular type of community. Others aren't welcome". I have never met a principal who has said that. I would love to hear someone here say that they have met a principal who wants an exclusive and segregated system of education in their school. I would want to know about that so that, as Minister, I could challenge them, because I want our schools to be inclusive and open.”
“NICIE aspires to a composition of 40% Protestant, 40% Catholic and 20% other. The Education Reform (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 is also relevant. It outlines a need for 10% minority enrolment in the first year of enrolment for the school to qualify as integrated, which it should then seek to grow. The conclusion that I reached on those two schools was rationally based on the legal framework that I have to operate within.”
“It is important that we appreciate that the responsibility for taking those decisions rests with me, as Minister. I must be satisfied that the process has been followed and that the statutory tests have been met. My officials advised that the numbers for those schools did not meet the current test for a reasonable number. That is in the report. That was the conclusion that the officials reached; it is contained in the advice that was given to me, which is now publicly available. I had to determine whether it was likely that the reasonable number could be reached. As I have outlined, it was my view that it was not likely to be met, because of neighbouring schools and the demographics of the locality. <BR /> <BR />That allows me to conclude the point, Mr Speaker, on which you asked me to stop.”
“If you look at the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE), however, you see that it aspires to an intake of 40% Protestant, 40% Catholic and 20% other for integrated schools. If you then look at the —.”
“Reasonable is right. When taking that decision, you look at a school with less than 3% of one group. In north Down, 11% of the population is Catholic. In Bangor, 9% of the population is Catholic. The schools did not meet that level, so they did not reflect their locality. As I outlined to the Member who asked the question for urgent oral answer, it did not appear likely to me that the proposal would meet that level in the future either. <BR /> <BR />I have to take such decisions. I appreciate that they will not always be agreed to by other people. When those decisions are taken, Members will ask, "Well, what is reasonable?". Members are right that "reasonable" is not defined in law.”
“In those two schools, less than 3% of the pupil enrolment identified as Roman Catholics, which means that 97% identified as either Protestant or other. Just 3% identified as Catholic. The legislation that the Assembly passed stipulates a requirement for the numbers of Protestant and Catholic children to be —”
“I referenced that in my earlier response to Ms Hunter. The test of "reasonable numbers" is set out in legislation. I know that the Member was not here when the Assembly voted for that legislation, so I can give him a bye ball when he indicates that he is baffled by the decision. I will not extend that to some of his colleagues who authored the legislation and put that requirement in law. I am absolutely meeting my duties with regard to the integrated sector, just as I am when it comes to shared education and Irish-medium education. I support all sectors. I have made it clear that I am here to support all sectors in our education system, but I have to take decisions on the basis of development proposals that come forward.”
“Fundamental to the case in north Down was the test set out in the 2022 legislation that was voted for by other Members in the House, which stipulated a requirement for there to be a "reasonable" number of Protestant and Catholic children.”
“If that is the legal basis on which a Minister must take decisions, the Member who introduced the legislation should have put that requirement in it. That would then have been the legal framework by which a Minister has to abide. <BR /> <BR />I also say to the Member that I have approved five schools to transform to integrated status. I look at each case individually, and there have been examples during my time as Minister of Education where I have supported that transformation. I declined a request for transformation to become an integrated school from, I think, St Eugene's in Omagh on grounds of sustainability. A number of factors come into the framework in which I have to apply my decision-making process.”
“I thank the Member for the question. To all parents who are very invested in the education system, I would say this: continue to be so, and put forward your case. However, decisions that I have to take are not predicated solely on parental choice and parental demand. I took decisions last week to close down some schools. The parental demand was to keep them open. The demand of the principals of those schools and the representation that I subsequently received about the decisions that I took last week to close those schools was to keep them open. <BR /> <BR />If parental choice and parental ballots are the determinative factor, why was that not voted for in the legislation that Members passed in 2022?”
“That will be found not just in those two schools but in other schools, and I commend the Member to visit them.”
“I will finalise that letter, send it to the two principals of the schools and ask them to share that with the parents, so that I can directly engage with them rather than doing so through the filter of the media and, indeed, at times, the misrepresentation by some people in the House, including the Member who brought the question. She mischaracterised the decision but also said things about north Down, including that I had stopped those who want to have an integrated education. I encourage the Member to speak to other schools in Bangor. Some principals have written to thank me for the decision that I took and to say that it was the right decision. They have all assured me that they provide inclusive education in their particular sector. There is an inclusive ethos in Bangor.”
“I have acknowledged, in taking the decision, that some people will be disappointed by that decision. I recognise that, for the two schools concerned, the principals and those parents who voted to allow the process to get to my desk will be disappointed with the decision. However, I am absolutely reassured by the commitment of those two schools and, indeed, all our schools across Northern Ireland that they want to provide an inclusive education system that is open to all. I am confident that both those schools will be able to provide that inclusive education system. <BR /> <BR />I have undertaken to write to every parent.”
“In the report to me, departmental officials concluded that a figure of 3% Catholic children did not satisfy "reasonable numbers" at present. However, I did not just consider the current religious balance. I considered whether it was likely that the schools could achieve reasonable numbers from the minority community at some point in the future after transformation. Given the community breakdown in the area and the availability of other well-regarded options for Catholic children, including Catholic maintained and other integrated options, I was unable to conclude that that was likely. <BR /> <BR />I did not vote for the 2022 Act, which confirmed the requirement for reasonable numbers of Protestant and Roman Catholic children, but I am obliged to obey it.”
“When I take decisions on development proposals, I work within a very clear legal framework. Integrated education is defined in the law. I am under a legal duty to encourage, facilitate and support the development of integrated education, and I take that duty extremely seriously. However, I am prohibited legally from approving the transformation of a school to become an integrated school unless it is likely that the school will provide integrated education. Section 1(1)(a) of the Integrated Education Act 2022 states:”
“I am confident that that is the desire of the Minister of Health and the Minister for the Economy.”
“If that were the case, the Department of Health and the Department for the Economy would need to relinquish functions. Those two Ministers would need to let go of certain areas for which they are responsible, and those areas would need to come to the Department of Education. The resource would also need to follow. <BR /> <BR />What I would rather do and what, I think, my ministerial colleagues would rather do — I am not speaking for them — is ensure that our three Departments work closely together and provide the pathways and support that are needed, because, ultimately, it is that support, from whichever Department it comes, that the families and campaigners on the issue want to see. I am determined to make sure that they get that support irrespective of the Department in which that responsibility sits.”
“On one hand, let me thank the Member for her comments, but, on the other, let me just push back: I do not believe that the Minister of Health and the Minister for the Economy are failing in their support for children and young people. I understand the concerns that have been expressed about that transition period, but Members will criticise the Department of Education for not meeting current need. On the one hand, I will take it as a compliment that the Member thinks that I can do that effectively, but, on the other, Members will challenge me and say that my Department is not supporting children and young people. Therefore, the solution should not be a default position that my Department should become legally required to provide education up to the age of 25.”
“I am sure that the Member, who passionately holds Ministers to account, will also hold me to account as I hold my Department and all the various stakeholders to account as we take that progress forward.”
“Ultimately, as Minister, it is my responsibility to ensure that appropriate governance arrangements are in place and there is accountability through being able to measure our outcomes. We will very much want to do that through regular reporting and being able to hold people to account in respect of that. As part of the reform agenda, I will create a new delivery unit in the Department. It will be established to drive forward the reform agenda. There will be progress measures for targeting. That will be monitored regularly through formal governance structures. <BR /> <BR />This is not just a hypothetical announcement: it is real. The delivery plan is real. There will be governance, targets and accountability.”
“Is the Member really saying that we should stick to a model that does not work, or should we take an evidence-based approach that is in the best interests of the children's outcomes?”
“I also reference The High School Ballynahinch, whose principal could not recruit a classroom assistant. Despite repeated attempts to recruit, he was unable to do so, and the resource is being used to employ a full-time teacher. Is the Member really saying —?”
“I also outlined that, in Northern Ireland, there are schools that, rather than using the resources available through a statement to have a classroom assistant, have deployed that resource to recruit a full-time teacher and have a smaller class. Those school leaders and the families have said that they are getting a good outcome when it comes to the educational impact. I encourage the Member and other Members to visit those schools, if they have not done so, of which there are a number that I will easily commend to him, to see first-hand the impact that that is having. <BR /> <BR />I will namecheck Integrated College Glengormley as one example of where resources are being deployed to employ full-time teachers and deliver in small settings.”
“I thank the Member for the question. Yes, in the Department of Education, we are always engaging with unions on a whole range of issues. What is critical here is what is in the interests of the children and young people. We have to ensure that, where the evidence shows that a particular model or approach works better than what we have been doing, we need to change the model. I am sure that the Member, like me, wants to put children first in this. <BR /> <BR />I have outlined the very valuable role that our classroom assistants play. I have outlined the way in which I want to empower them and support them with training to make that impact on children and young people.”
“I want to get to the point, as I said to Mr Gildernew earlier, at which you do not need a statement to get the services that are required, because professionals know what is needed. You should not need a legal document to have to take people to court. You should be able to get that support. That is what I want to do and what the statement is about: providing the right support to the right people in the right place at the right time.”
“I thank the Member for outlining the case, and, of course, I am happy to look at the individual case. The statement seeks to address the very point that he has just made. It should not require a legal statement of educational need for a child or young person to get the support that is required in our educational settings. That is why it has to change. That is why we are creating these local impact teams with educationalists and allied health professionals. They all have the ability to address these issues, put in place the right support and give flexibility to schools to have the resources that they need to best meet the needs of their children and young people. That is why we are doing the work in our special schools to increase the school estate.”
“We will publish the detailed documents within weeks, and there are short-term immediate decisions that are already being taken forward, including in the areas that the Member has spoken about. We will see the transformation of the support for children with special educational needs.”
“I thank the Member for his comments and his question and for the work that he is doing on the Education Committee. I know that this is an important area for the Member. We have spoken about the need to provide much better support in accessing the services that are required. All the work that we will take forward, a detailed plan of which will be published in the coming weeks, will address the issues that the Member has spoken about. As I outlined in the statement, it will take time to transform these services, which have become embedded over the past almost decade. It will require time for those changes to take place, but we have now started on that journey today.”
“That is why I am delighted that, in the draft Budget that is out for public consultation, I have again been able to secure the funding that will allow that 15% subsidy to continue into the next financial year. I know that that will come as a welcome announcement for those who have been part of that scheme, for which over 13,000 people have registered. That funding is secured in the draft Budget and will be finalised when we agree it as an Executive. That 15% subsidy will continue into the next financial year.”
“I thank the Member for her comments and her engagement with me, particularly on the early years provision in special educational needs and more generally. The statement outlined the work that we are going to do on early years, because it is critical that we not only provide that support and make that early intervention but support the practitioners who are in early years settings. This work will complement that which we have taken forward on the early learning years strategy that we want to develop and on the measures that we have already implemented. The funding that I was able to secure from the Executive meant that we were able to provide support to early years settings and provide the childcare subsidy that the Member spoke about.”
“I do not want parents to feel the frustrations that they often do when they are exasperated, not able to get a placement and hear of children who have their place confirmed while they still have to fight. Those parents contact the EA, and they are frustrated at not getting a response and at being passed around from one person to the next without getting the information. All that is hugely frustrating. We have improved, but we have so much more to do. Today, I am outlining how we are going to do that. I have indicated the resource that will be required. There are short-term measures that we have already started and measures that we will start imminently so that we can improve all those issues for the people who need it most.”
“I would say to those parents, "I hear you. I understand you. Your voice has come through very clearly as part of the work of the end-to-end review". That experience has very much informed what I have articulated today about how we are going to address the issues. As a society, we are marked on how we treat the most vulnerable and those who need the most. If we fail them, we are not living up to the values that we should be setting ourselves as a society. The work is very much based on the evidence of people's experiences. I get the frustration: although you get a statement, you can still feel failed because classroom assistants cannot even be recruited in some areas. I have articulated that I believe that there is a better way to meet the needs and that we need to do that better and work through the process of being able to meet them.”
“I thank the Member for that. I assure her that, when it comes to new builds, our officials are already dealing with the supernumerary issue. There is no point in building new builds, engaging in school enhancement programmes and building an estate if they do not recognise some of the children who end up going to those schools. I agree with the Member: you cannot area plan on the basis of not including people who have additional needs.”
“One of the directors who will be recruited will be tasked with reforming those processes in the Education Authority. That is the priority that is being given to addressing those issues within the EA. I support that work. The work that we are doing today, which I outlined in the statement, is all about supporting children, young people and their families. The streamlining of those processes is part of the outworkings of that.”
“I thank the Member for her contribution. She brings her personal experience to the subject and has very much added value to my consideration of the issues by speaking about the need to support her young people. My officials have done an incredible amount of work on the issue, and I commend them for it. It is very personal for some of them as well. They have invested themselves not just professionally but emotionally in taking this forward. I thank them for that, and I thank the Member for the work that she has done to support me in making this statement. <BR /> <BR />The streamlining process is really important, because there is huge frustration, as we have touched on already. We are going to streamline the process. I have engaged with the chief executive of the Education Authority in that regard.”
“The Minister of Health has referred to "shifting left" in the Department of Health when it comes to services meeting need. This is about a shift left in Education when it comes to meeting the needs of children and young people with educational need. It is about getting in early and meeting the needs of all our children and young people, not just those with statements of special educational need.”
“We need to transform the way in which we support children and young people. There are thousands of children who do not have a statement of special educational need but have additional needs and require that support. The transformation seeks early intervention so that we make the impact at those earliest of years. All the evidence shows that, when you do that, less intervention is required as you get older, and it is a more efficient use of resources.”
“I thank the Member for his comments. It is about all of those. It is not just about meeting the needs of children with a statement of special educational need; indeed, the transformation work should reduce the number of children who require a statement of special educational need. Often, families have to resort to getting a legal document in order to force the provision of the support that, they feel, their children need. It should not get to the point where parents need to get a legal document in order to get their children the right educational support in school settings.”
“<BR /> <BR />Those transition years are important, and I understand the concerns of those who have campaigned on the issue. They are fearful about what will happen when their children or young people leave a formal education setting. My statement and the work with the Department of Health and the Department for the Economy speak to the need to make sure that those pathways provide the right support for those young people so that they are independent outside a formal school setting and can engage in our society and with industry. That is what the statement speaks to and what we will be there to support.”
“I thank the Member for his kind remarks and for recognising my commitment to supporting our children and young people with special educational needs. <BR /> <BR />We absolutely need to make sure that we get this right. The GCSE is one measure used in the figures that I provided for the academic outcomes of children with special educational needs. The Member is right about making sure that, when it comes to transitioning from education, we support pathways so that those young people are able to have careers, to develop themselves professionally and to participate in our economy. That is why I spoke about the need for collaboration not just to meet health needs — I am working with the Department of Health on that — but with the Department for the Economy.”
“There is a need for a more efficient strategy for providing increased professional support in the classroom. That is why I am keen to see the development of a flexible, evidence-based model for classroom assistance that can be readily deployed by schools to best meet localised, sector-specific needs. My officials are exploring a range of models and a suite of revised approaches that will be made available to schools during the first term of the 2025-26 academic year.”
“Additionally, one-to-one support can isolate students from their peers, limiting their opportunities for social interaction and collaborative learning. Furthermore, the effectiveness of one-to-one support can vary significantly on the basis of the skills and training of assistants, leading to inconsistency in the quality of support. Research indicates that inclusive teaching practices whereby all children are engaged together often yield better outcomes and foster a more supportive learning environment. Feedback gathered from the end-to-end review of SEN also makes it clear that the current methods of deploying that resource may not be the most efficient or sustainable. <BR /> <BR />As we know, there is a lack of flexibility in the role of classroom assistant, due to the allocation of hours and the way in which statements are written.”
“I thank the Member for his question. He has often engaged with me on the importance of supporting our children and young people in education settings. <BR /> <BR />I recognise that one-to-one classroom assistance will remain the most appropriate form of support for some children — I spoke to that in the statement — and I want to be clear that the role of classroom assistant remains key in our schools and is pivotal to the delivery of inclusive, whole-class provision for pupils with SEN. The evidence from a range of scrutiny reports tells us, however, that one-to-one classroom assistance is not the most appropriate form of support for the majority of children. It can lead to dependency, with children being hindered in developing independent learning skills.”
“SENCOs do an incredibly important job, and I agree with the Member in highlighting the contribution that they make. The transformation programme is very much about supporting children and young people to access the right support in a timely fashion. Often, it has been the delay in getting statements from psychologists that has led to services not being provided. We all know that earlier intervention has a significant impact, so we need to support it. That is why I want to have in place a process in which we are not dependent on a psychologist's report in order to access support. We have the support of allied health professionals' assessments, so we can access the support and put it in place in a timelier fashion. All of that will assist SENCOs in schools.”
“The priority actions include additional professional support in the classroom; improved and more child-centred communications; improved approaches to placements and admissions; and a more child-centred approach to support, which, as the Member articulated, this should be about. I agree with her that it is about the children and young people.”
“I thank the Member for her question and agree entirely with her sentiment. This has to be about the children and young people. That is the focus. Where the evidence leads us to say that the model needs to change, we need to make sure that we change it, because that is what is in the children's interests. <BR /> <BR />As I outlined, I am committed. Some of the immediate actions that we can take are contained in the report. Early, year 1 actions are intended to rebuild confidence and capability across the education system and are embedded in a clear plan to implement system-wide reform.”
“<BR /> <BR />The independent review of education noted that an additional £136 million in resource funding a year would be required to transform SEN support. The initial costings from the exercise that we have taken forward indicate that investment in the region of £114 million a year would be required to support the identified areas that will be contained in the delivery plan. That equates to around £570 million being needed over the next five years. I do not need to tell Members how challenging it will be to deliver all that we do in education as well as taking forward the transformation work in the absence of that additional resource. I am absolutely committed to taking forward what I can with the resources that are currently available to me, but the plan will require significant investment.”