Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“I am aware that the Committee would wish to ensure that any, perhaps unintended, gaps in the legislative provision can be addressed in other ways, and my Department commits to working with other Departments and organisations to address those gaps as far as possible. <BR /> <BR />I commend the regulations to the House.”
“I am hopeful that that funding will be made available to support the effective implementation of the legislation. <BR /> <BR />On approval of the draft regulations, my Department will conduct a short period of consultation with the specified public service bodies. This consultation will be in relation to guidance that is to be provided under the Act. Once that guidance is published, the specified public service bodies are required to consult with product users on the arrangements to be put in place for providing free period products. Both consultations are a requirement of the Act and must be properly carried out. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Committee for Education for its consideration of these draft regulations, and I hope that I have addressed some of the points that were raised at recent meetings.”
“This is to ensure that the general public is not entitled to go into these settings to obtain free period products. This is particularly important for safeguarding children and young people. <BR /> <BR />An eight-week public consultation was undertaken on these proposals. Bodies consulted included the Department of Education's arm's-length bodies, schools and my Department's wider stakeholder base. Some 47 responses were received, which provided useful clarification on points of detail but did not necessitate significant change to the policy proposals. The response to the consultation has been published on my Department's website. <BR /> <BR />I anticipate the cost of the provision of free period products to be in the region of £900,000 a year.”
“<BR /> <BR />Regulations will include administrative accommodation leased or owned by a specified public service body for the purpose of effecting its statutory functions. As I said earlier, CCMS, CCEA and the GTCNI are included in the proposed list of public service bodies in relation to their administrative accommodation. <BR /> <BR />I move onto the description of persons contained in the draft regulations. My Department proposes to limit provision in all settings to pupils, staff and visitors on school premises or in EA EOTAS settings; young people, staff and visitors in statutory youth settings; and staff and visitors in the administrative accommodation of specified public service bodies. In all cases, "visitor" is identified as:”
“This means that all buildings used for non-educational purposes — for example, eating, leisure or sport — as well as those used for learning will be captured so long as they form part of the premises of the school. This is important in ensuring reasonable ease of access to free products, which is required under the Act. <BR /> <BR />Education other than at school and statutory youth settings are captured where those settings are on Education Authority premises, whether leased or owned. However, community-based youth and EOTAS settings cannot be captured in the regulations as they are not statutory organisations. These gaps in provision may not have been intentional when the Act was being drafted. However, provision at such settings could be made on a voluntary basis.”
“There are other bodies that could make provision on a voluntary basis even though they cannot be specified in regulations. These are the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE), Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta (CnaG) and the Middletown Centre for Autism. <BR /> <BR />As already stated, the Act allows my Department to provide descriptions of persons and premises in order to ensure that the Act can be made workable in the education sector. The proposed regulations contain such descriptions. First, there are descriptions of premises. In the case of schools, regulations will include "all buildings comprising school premises".”
“For these bodies, I understand that it is intended that they will, however, be captured under regulations being made by the Department for the Economy. This is because they are located in St Mary's University College and Stranmillis University College.”
“Those are the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment, and the General Teaching Council for Northern Ireland (GTCNI). Those bodies are all specified for their administrative accommodation. <BR /> <BR />There are several arm's-length bodies in the education sector that cannot be specified because they are not statutory. Those include the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service (CSTS), the Controlled Schools' Support Council (CSSC) and the Governing Bodies Association Northern Ireland (GBANI).”
“It proposes to specify the Education Authority (EA) as manager of controlled schools, boards of governors of all voluntary schools and grant-maintained integrated schools, and proprietors of independent schools. <BR /> <BR />My Department may also specify public service bodies other than schools, provided that the specified bodies are statutory bodies, serving the public for the public interest. My Department therefore proposes to specify the Education Authority for statutory youth settings, its education other than at school (EOTAS) settings and its administrative accommodation. Other arm's-length bodies (ALBs) that meet the definition of "public service body" under the Act are also included in the draft regulations.”
“Departments must specify which of their bodies will be legally required to make sure that free period products are available for use on their premises. As well as specifying public service bodies, the regulations may provide for descriptions of premises and persons and of when premises are to be treated as being in use. <BR /> <BR />Given the policy intent of the Act to make products widely available, my Department aims to minimise any limitations to the provision in making the regulations. My Department is required to specify bodies with functions that would enable them to discharge duties under the Act for persons in school premises.”
“The pilot also provides education on periods, aiming to increase the knowledge of pupils and teachers, male and female, and to break down the stigma associated with periods. I am hopeful that that excellent educational support, developed by the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (NICCEA), will continue. <BR /> <BR />I will now speak to the draft regulations. Members will be aware that all Departments must specify in regulation the public service bodies that will have duties under the 2022 Act. I thank the Executive Office for establishing an interdepartmental working group to ensure that a coordinated approach is taken. The powers provided under the Act to make the regulations are very specific.”
“Feedback from pupils and teachers has been overwhelmingly positive, as was demonstrated by the responses to a survey when the pilot scheme was launched in September 2021. That initiative is not simply focused on period poverty but aims to respect the dignity of our learners so that they can attend school confidently, take part fully in activities and focus on their education. <BR /> <BR />No female should be prevented from fully participating in education simply because she has periods. I am delighted to say that the pilot scheme has been successful in that regard. In fact, 82% of pupils availing themselves of the scheme said that it increased their confidence in managing their period in school.”
“I am pleased to bring the draft regulations to the Assembly for approval. The regulations will be made under powers conferred by the Period Products (Free Provision) Act (Northern Ireland) 2022. <BR /> <BR />Before I turn to the regulations themselves, I will take a moment to reflect on the enormous benefits of the provision. Free period products, which can be accessed easily and in a dignified way, will be life-changing for girls and women across Northern Ireland, particularly at a time that household budgets are under so much pressure. <BR /> <BR />My Department has already been providing free period products in schools for almost three years under the period dignity pilot scheme.”
“It allows schools to develop. In my constituency, I can think of one primary school in the village where I lived, Maghaberry, where we moved from a seven-class base school. Enrolment was increasing as the population grew, and we had to move to providing composite classes. That was the only way to allow the school to continue to grow. As populations grow, you want to move to having two class bases in a school. Composite classes have a role where it meets the need of a local population.”
“The Member is absolutely right. When we think about support staff, we are talking about some of the lowest-paid workers in the public sector, and yet they are delivering vital services — your classroom assistants, cooks and bus drivers. The action short of a strike in this area has been having a detrimental impact on the outcomes for children and young people, particularly in our special schools, when strikes have taken place. I want to see the pay and grading review successfully dealt with. I will meet the unions again on 18 April to give them another update. It is now very much over to the Executive to make the funding available for this to be resolved.”
“Obviously, the process was that a business case had to be put forward. I can confirm that the Department of Finance has approved the business case, so that is a significant development. It is now subject to funding being made available through the Budget process. I want to see that being successful. I have been reassured by Sinn Féin's spokesperson on education that the Minister of Finance will look sympathetically at this in the funding that was allocated to resolve a number of the other pay settlements — funding of £688 million. This issue was not included, but the Minister of Finance indicated that she would look at the issue, subject to the business cases progressing. They have now progressed and been approved. It is now subject to the Budget outcome.”
“I want to ensure that there is fairness and equity in everything that I do as a Minister when it comes to the development of our new school estate.”
“I always, particularly when an MLA asks me to facilitate a meeting, seek to accommodate that. If the Member wants me to do that, I am happy to do so. The reassurance that I have provided to all of the schools impacted by Fresh Start is that they have been moved into my conventional programme and continue to advance. Other major capital schools are not advancing in my Department; those in Fresh Start are. Understandably, other schools are asking, "Why are you pursuing the Fresh Start schools when I have been part of your conventional development schemes in the Department?". Fresh Start schools have been given a high level of reassurance by me, and I am being challenged by other schools asking, "What about us?".”
“Should that be made available to the Department, I can review those capital projects and prioritise schemes that can be taken forward.”
“All of that is subject to capital funding being made available. I have outlined the significant number of major capital schemes that are currently in my Department. I have highlighted the inadequacy of the resources available not only to fund major new-builds but to fund enhancement programmes, to tackle the maintenance backlog in our school estate and to develop a capital programme that can help to facilitate the delivery of curriculums in schools. That is fundamentally important. I have been to a number of schools, and Shankill Primary School is one that is in an absolutely appalling condition. It is there waiting for funding to be made available. I am not in a position to guarantee that any school will get the go-ahead, other than the fact that I am making the case for significant increases in capital funding.”
“I have supported the business case that went forward to the Department of Finance, and it forms part of my bid for the allocation to the Department of Education as part of the Budget process.”
“I assure the Member that that forms part of my bid to the Department of Finance for the budget settlement for this financial year. I have met the unions and indicated my support for resolving the pay and grading review issue. That is separate from the pay settlements, because those workers are part of a national joint negotiating committee and have received pay increases over the past number of years. The issue, however, when it comes to the impact that that increase has on them, is with the baseline by which they are paid, as well as the wider issues with recruitment and retention of the workforce. That is why the pay and grading review has been taking place.”
“Yes, a business case was submitted to the Department of Finance. The Education Authority provided information to the Department of Education. That business case was sent on to the Department of Finance, but the EA subsequently contacted us to say that the information was not correct. That delayed the process, but my Department worked at pace with the EA to get accurate information. That allowed a business case to be presented to the Department of Education that my Department subsequently sent to the Department of Finance for its consideration.”
“I will have officials look into the area of procurement and at whether there is a level of expenditure, albeit a small level, that schools can manage themselves, without having to go through the EA. I am open to that, because, if it can be more cost-effective and delivered in a timelier fashion, we should consider that in light of the various parameters by which procurement law pertains in this area.”
“Principals have raised that issue with me, particularly with regard to the small amounts of money that are needed for projects in a school for which they have to go through an EA procurement system. That system is meant to deliver savings, because of the economy of scale that can be delivered by doing it through the EA. Given the outworking of that, however, some schools say that they could do it more efficiently and cost-effectively themselves. We need to look at that, but I am also alert to the various pieces of legislation that pertain to procurement law.”
“Obviously, I want to retain people in the workforce. That is part of the business case for the pay and grading review for support staff, and that includes classroom assistants and the other people in the workforce. I want to see that taken forward. That will assist in trying to retain staff, but we also need to identify what issues we need to address so that more people come into the workforce.”
“That is not unique to Newry and Armagh. Having the appropriate workforce available is an issue for all our constituencies, and that is a challenge. The challenges are the terms and conditions that the staff operate to and attracting people into the workforce when we have a growing private sector that offers better terms and conditions. We are competing with the private sector. In border communities, we are also competing with what people are being offered to work in the Republic of Ireland. Those are challenges for us. There is no simple answer that will enhance the available workforce, but we recognise that we need to provide more support. There is more work to do to make sure that there is an appropriate workforce to meet the needs that continue to grow.”
“I am happy to follow up with the Member in more detail on the matter, but I will add a little more information on some of the areas in the provision of Irish-medium education that we are working on. The Middletown Centre for Autism, for example, provides workforce training, online resources and sessions for parents in that area. <BR /> <BR />I am aware of the issue. It transcends Education and Health, where there are different statutory responsibilities, but I get it that the person who needs the assistance does not differentiate between Education and Health; they expect to get the support when they need it. I am alert to those issues and will follow up in writing with the Member.”
“There is a benefit to being drawn to ask a question and then asking a topical question to follow up and tease the issue out. <BR /> <BR />Again, I am aware of the specific challenges in the Irish-medium education sector around SEN provision and the support and resources that are currently available and what is further needed. That is why we are working with CnaG and looking, as part of the end-to-end review, to identify the specific support for children in that area that can be provided. We are also working with the EA on training for all schools through its SEN pupil support services. The psychology service has established a working group, so that best practice in the immersion of education and bilingualism can be embedded.”
“They have yet to provide the proper baseline, based on independent fiscal reports around the financial framework for appropriate funding. We continue to press the UK Government on that matter. Further resources that become available to the Executive can subsequently be allocated to different Departments. I want the Department of Education to be prioritised, and that will allow those schools and others to make more progress.”
“I can. Mr Dunne, a Member for North Down, has pressed me vociferously on the need for capital investment for those schools. I have already engaged with the UK Government. The Executive collectively continue to raise a needs-based approach to the funding from Treasury.”
“I, of course, want to advance a major capital programme across the school estate not just for Bangor Central Integrated but for all those schools. Over 100 major capital programmes were announced back in 2010: 35 of them are complete; and nine are in that contractual committed zone. That gives you a quantum of well over 50 schemes that are not funded, as well as all the other capital projects that we need to take forward. That is why, as we consider the outworkings of the Budget and, subsequently, the Executive's agreement of the Budget paper that will come from the Finance Minister, Education should be given priority. Every Member of those parties has raised various capital projects in their constituencies. There will be an opportunity for Members to prove how genuinely committed they are to funding Education when we agree a Budget.”
“The approval on 5 March 2024 of the planning application for the Bangor Central Integrated Primary School project is a major milestone on the road to its delivery. It marks the completion of the planning and design stages. As with the other former Fresh Start projects that have now transferred into my Department's major capital works programme, Bangor Central will progress to construction in line with conventional budget availability in the same manner as all other major capital works projects that my Department takes forward. I have submitted high-priority bids for each of those projects to the Department of Finance as part of the Budget process. I ask that every party at the Executive supports those bids.”
“All those schemes in Fresh Start either have been moved into my conventional programme or, as in the example of Strule, have now been given Executive priority.”
“I have spoken before about the Fresh Start moneys. I proactively engaged with the Secretary of State, who, unfortunately, did not provide a positive response around that. What I, as Minister, was able to do was move all the schemes into my conventional capital programme, with the exception of Strule, given the quantum of funding that was needed. That move provides reassurance for those schools that their projects will continue to be taken forward as part of my major conventional capital programme. Given that Strule was the one outstanding significant project that was part of those Fresh Start moneys, the Executive were able to provide that ring-fenced funding of £150 million. Subject to the full business case proceeding, that will allow the project to commence. Obviously, further moneys will be needed to deliver on Strule.”
“South Antrim is of particular interest to the Member. He asks about prioritisation. Major capital funding has been available to meet inescapable pressures only. That is for the Department to continue to meet contractual obligations where construction has commenced, and to continue to honour the integrated consulting team contracts regarding the design phase of those works. A number of projects are fully designed and awaiting integrated supply team procurements. However, due to funding not having been permitted, those projects have not progressed at this stage. Should additional capital funding be made available, however, all projects will be reviewed and will be prioritised to allow progression to be made.”
“I appreciate the correction on Gaelscoil Uí Dhochartaigh. Hopefully, that pronunciation was better. I am more than happy to follow up with a detailed written response to the Member on the capacity issue in the specific school that he mentioned.”
“Major works at Gaelscoil Uí Dhochartaigh — forgive me for, I am sure, mispronouncing that — in Strabane are taking place on site and are due to be completed in June of this year; St Catherine's Primary School, Strabane, has an approved business case and is at the concept design stage; Dean Maguirc College in Carrickmore, which was paused in 2023, remains so; Drumragh Integrated College, Omagh, is at the design stage; and St Mary's Primary School and Clogher and Strabane primary schools are progressing in design and business case stages, respectively, under the school enhancement programme.”
“The largest programme of work in the area — in fact, anywhere in Northern Ireland — is the Strule Shared Education Campus Omagh. With an estimated capital value in the region of £400 million, the campus will provide a state-of-the-art shared centre of learning. It will bring together six schools from across the Omagh community and incorporate grammar, non-selective and special school provision. Over 4,000 children and young people from all backgrounds will be educated on the campus. I am pleased that the Executive have confirmed their support for the programme, with £150 million of ring-fenced funding for it committed over the next three years. <BR /> <BR />I move now to other capital works in the area.”
“Obviously, when building a new school, for example, we have, in the past, looked at the school's enrolment. That has not included the number of children who attend who have a statement of educational need. That does not make sense to me. You are building a new school, but children with additional needs are regarded as supernumerary, which is a word that I am not particularly comfortable with. However, a school has to accommodate children with those additional needs, so that should be part of the planning assumptions when you are considering development proposals and new builds. The Member is right to raise that, and it is something that I am looking at.”
“That is something that needs to be addressed so that we get further upstream, as I talked about earlier.”
“One of the steps that was taken before I came into office was to have a dedicated senior employee within the EA to proactively manage that. Also, the Department has a steering group, which is headed up at very senior level, so that we can identify how many places are needed and proactively seek to place children. That requires greater collaboration with the Department of Health, for example. The stage at which the Education Authority is sighted on children that will have additional needs has to be much earlier than two years and nine months. It needs to be when a health worker has identified the needs, in the first months of a child's life, which they do, and support has been put into place. However, the connection of sharing of that data between the Department of Health and the Education Authority and planning seem to be a challenge.”
“That creates a bad outcome for the school and also for the child.”
“It is an interesting question. Some of the schools that I have visited have indicated to me a willingness to provide additional capacity for children that they could accommodate. I have had to proactively connect the EA to those schools. We have been appealing for schools to come forward. Some schools have come forward but have not felt fully engaged in the process. I think that that is wrong. If a school wants to provide support, it is incumbent upon the Education Authority to identify whether that can be achieved and delivered. There are real challenges when it comes to capacity. <BR /> <BR />It is also important that, when a school provides a place, it gets support throughout the child's placement in the school. There are examples of principals who have indicated to me that although they provided a place, they have not felt supported.”
“The Member raises the question of getting the appropriate place. There have been occasions when a placement has been accepted in the school, and then it transpires that that is not working out to the benefit of the child, family or guardians responsible. Then, you need to look at trying to make changes. That presents real difficulty when a placement does not work out, but there is an ongoing process of selecting the right school for children. In that process the Education Authority engages with the family and with the relevant school, and it tries to ensure that the appropriate support is in place. There are examples of excellent support and children being given the best possible opportunity. However, there are examples of where it has not worked, and that is something that we need to try to avoid.”
“Pulling in the same direction on this will be important for us to get the transformation that we need. A fundamental transformation in SEN is required so that we do not, year-on-year, have the same problem. We are going to have it this year. We need to deal with the pressures that we have and then get upstream so that we are much more advanced in our planning and are not dealing with a crisis-management scenario, which happened last year and is happening again this year.”
“I am concerned about the level of sick leave in this area, and a number of factors lead to delays around educational statements, including access to psychologists and the lack of availability of workforce in the area. That is why a considerable SEN review is taking place, in which there are multiple work streams. No single issue is going to turn this around. <BR /> <BR />It is vital that we always remember that at the heart of all this is a child. We must make sure that children get the right support from the right people at the right time. The system is failing to deliver that. I have inherited that situation, but I now have a responsibility, with the Education Authority, to address it. It is an area that the Member has an interest in, as does the Education Committee.”
“My immediate priority is to increase the capacity across the education system to ensure sufficient appropriate places for children with SEN for September 2024, and the EA is working in collaboration with stakeholders and schools where it knows there are acute pressures to create additional places in special schools and through SPIMS.”
“In the past three academic years, the Education Authority has created 140 additional classes for special schools and 203 new specialist provision in mainstream schools (SPIMS) classes. <BR /> <BR />The position for this September is extremely challenging. On the basis of the Education Authority's latest planning assumptions, more than 1,000 additional specialist education places are needed by then.”
“Children with a statement of special educational needs (SEN) follow a different process for securing a school placement from the general admissions process, one that seeks to ensure that their needs as outlined in their statement are met. Each child is individually placed. Children are referred for a SEN statement and review throughout the year, which means that there is a continual flow of children entering the process. That makes alignment with the general admissions process difficult. Access to appropriate school placements for children with SEN has been the subject of much discussion in recent weeks. The demand for specialist education provision has increased significantly over the past number of years, and the system has struggled to keep pace with the rising demand.”