Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“A straightforward requirement could be drafted in such a way that requires all the provisions of the Bill, including any cap, to be covered in a report.”
“<BR /> <BR />While I can appreciate the intention behind amendment No 8, my position is that it represents over-elaborate drafting in how it seems intended to operate in practice. It risks placing bureaucracy above a straightforward requirement to report on the impact of the Bill, which would be more logical; indeed, I assure Members that that would happen without any amendment on that point.”
“To achieve that, we need the Bill to support guidelines that work for schools in order to benefit parents and pupils. <BR /> <BR />I will start with the group 1 amendments that are not of material impact, namely amendment Nos 1 and 4. Those amendments require the Department to review the guidelines at least every three years and lay them before the Assembly. Amendment No 4, in particular, seems unnecessary, given that the guidelines will always be published on the departmental website. However, amendment No 1 is not necessary either, since regular review is already required. Therefore, I invite the relevant Member not to press either amendment No 1 or amendment No 4.”
“I invite the House to bear this in mind as we go through the debate: how the Department is allowed to go about preparing guidelines is necessarily informed by wider considerations that do not need to be expressly provided for in the Bill. We all know that words matter. In the Chamber, they are a matter of public record. In legislation, they are critical. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to the amendments. Group 1 is about monitoring and enforcement of what will be statutory guidelines. Monitoring is extremely important. It is important that we ensure that the Bill delivers what it is intended to do: making school uniforms more affordable for parents. It is also important that we do not lose sight of the fact that I introduced the Bill for that fundamental reason.”
“The engagement and drafting will be ongoing until the final provisions of the Bill are determined in the Assembly, so I make no apology for doing things properly. It is not for my benefit but for the benefit of schools and parents. Legislation is there to make a specific provision in law. It is meant to bring about a legal state of affairs that would not otherwise exist. The Bill will operate in the context of existing law, and that includes all existing human rights and equality legislation. The Department is bound by law to act reasonably in exercising its statutory functions, and it should be borne in mind that that necessarily informs attitudes to fairness, dignity and equality. To be clear, that is expert opinion from legal advice.”
“I cannot comment on why that was said. As Minister, I was clear that guidelines follow the law. There are amendments that may or may not get voted through today. Guidance is, of course, being developed, but it would be premature to produce guidance until we know the basis on which that guidance has to be framed, and it is the law that does that. That is why the Committee did not get sight of the guidance in advance of us doing our job to pass the legislation. I have outlined the reason. Members may not agree with that, but the reason is that guidance follows the law. <BR /> <BR />I am not prepared to rush through or share drafts of guidelines that have not had the benefit of due legal consideration. That is the stage that my officials are at, and it will result in clearer guidelines.”
“That is how we will make a difference for parents, and part of it requires legal advice. Members have asked for guidelines, but guidelines follow the law. I will be able to provide those guidelines. That work is already under way, and I will certainly be developing the guidelines. I have been doing so. That is in line with the law. The law must come first. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to give way to Mr Sheehan.”
“I know from meeting schools — certainly one school at least — that they are making changes. <BR /> <BR />The comments that I will make about the deficient nature of the amendments are not Paul Givan's view — I am not a legal expert — but are based on legal advice from senior legal advisers. I thank the Office of the Legislative Counsel (OLC) and the Departmental Solicitor's Office (DSO) for the detailed work that they have undertaken, the advice that they have provided and the pace at which they have done so. <BR /> <BR />I am also aware that the Committee wishes to see draft guidelines. Some Members referred to that in their contributions, but such guidelines must follow the Bill. I am focused on getting the guidelines right for schools.”
“The message has been getting out to schools through what I, the Executive and the Committee have been doing through the process. I have been in schools recently, and the principal in one school indicated to me — this was a school where a blazer in sixth form was based on various honours — that it is changing its policy before we even pass the legislation. He said that the school had engaged with its student council, listened to the feedback and is changing its policy. That school is working through that. We are already making an impact on the schools that are outliers. I agree with the Chairman that the vast majority of schools do the right thing, but there are still some that have been required to go through this process now to give statutory force to the guidelines in order to make the change.”
“The conclusion of Committee Stage by the end of August means that that is achievable and that schools must adhere to statutory guidelines for the 2026-27 school year. Parents will benefit. <BR /> <BR />I recognise that the Committee reported at the beginning of July. Timing-wise, that was admirable. However, important legislative details are missing from some of the amendments that the Committee has tabled, and I will talk to those as we reach the relevant amendment. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to give way to the Chairman.”
“I am aware that some Members have questioned whether the amended timescale will make any difference to the time when parents will feel the benefit of the legislation: let me assure the House that it will. <BR /> <BR />Because we are at Consideration Stage now instead of later in the year or even next year, once the Bill passes Final Stage — assuming that it does, which is, of course, a matter for Members to determine — schools will know in sufficient time what legal requirements will be in operation before the 2026-27 school year. My Department will advise schools of the matters that are expected to be in the guidelines once the Bill reaches its final form. Work continues on clarifying draft guidelines and communications to schools so that they will be ready to issue after Final Stage.”
“I am delighted that we have reached Consideration Stage, and I hope that the Bill will be on the statute book later this year. <BR /> <BR />Let us remember that making school uniforms more affordable is why I introduced the Bill in the first place. I want to recognise the effort that the Education Committee has made to submit its report in line with the revised Committee Stage time frame. Some Members were not happy that the lengthy proposed Committee Stage was brought back from December to August, but that was an important decision by Members, as it prevented a delay of an entire school year before parents could feel any benefit from the legislation.”
“I had a good weekend, so we are not going to go into that mode today. This is too serious for us to engage in that. I want to focus on legislation, because, when the Bill is passed, it is what schools and others will be held accountable to. If someone wants to go to court, this is what they will base that on, so we have a real responsibility. Legislation has been passed by the Assembly that has been flawed and has not been correct, so we need to do our job and do it really carefully. <BR /> <BR />In my role as Education Minister, I want to make a difference to the everyday lives of real people. More affordable school uniforms will make a real difference to people across Northern Ireland. That is why I introduced the Bill, which every party on the Executive supported.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I begin by thanking all Members who have contributed to the debate on this important legislation. We are, first and foremost, Members of a legislative Assembly. Some have cast a view and made comments that sounded more like what would be said at Second Stage than what would be said in a debate on the detail of law and wording. I am not going to go into that, because, as a Minister, I have a duty to focus on discharging what the Assembly is meant to do, which is legislate and be careful about the wording of law, rather than engaging in broader commentary about what could have been and what should have been. It is our job to legislate. <BR /> <BR />Some have tried to lay a trap. Some want to bait me and get me riled. I am not going to do it. It is Monday.”
“— that that is worth bearing in mind when you are criticising the Bill.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I was due to say a few words before we break for Question Time and resume the debate at 3.30 pm. I will elaborate later on some of the substantive points that Members have made, but I will make one point now. The Bill was not introduced by me alone but was approved by the Executive. Every Member who has spoken and raised concerns is from a party that has Executive members. I engaged with the Alliance leader on the Bill before we went through the Executive, and I engaged with Sinn Féin. The Bill is a product of the Northern Ireland Executive, on which your parties have representatives. That is the legislation. There was opportunity to seek change to the legislation and to have that change included in the Bill by your parties' members of the Executive.”
“It is one of the reasons why the review that I commissioned of learning for life and work (LLW) in schools said that it was not delivering. Pupils who I met said that they did not find that that was an effective means by which to address some of the issues that the Member has just outlined. We are going to be looking at the way in which the curriculum addresses those issues, and we will be doing it in a way that I believe will be more effective than the current approach has been in our school system.”
“I thank the Member for his welcome of what we are trying to take forward. I supported the Member's amendment in the Assembly last night, so I am not sure where he is getting that from. Let me state on the record that classroom assistants are hugely important to our education system. They provide important support to the young people whom they are helping. We need to ensure that the education system provides funding for what is in the best interests of our children. Whether that is funding for teachers or for classroom assistants, we need to be sure that, when we are identifying the best way to support the child, the resources, financial and human, are allocated in a way that is in the best interests of the children. Without a shadow of a doubt, classroom assistants are hugely important to our education system.”
“If that is the solution that is being advocated, I do not see how it will work in our society. <BR /> <BR />I had a choice to make when I came into this role: either we go round the decades-long position on academic selection, on which there is no consensus, or we get on with trying to improve the education system in every single school, irrespective of whether it is a grammar school, a comprehensive school or an Irish-medium school. My focus is on helping every single school. That is my objective, and that is what the TransformED document is very much about.”
“The Member raised the issue of the procurement contract and so on, and I am more than happy to provide that information. <BR /> <BR />I have my views on academic selection, you have your view on academic selection, and everyone else has their various views. There is no consensus on what to do about academic selection. Of my children, some sat it, and others did not. It is a choice — a decision that parents will make when the time comes to go through the process. If there is a better way to select children to transfer to schools, please bring it forward. If it were to be done on the basis of children attending their nearest school — one that they live beside — we know what would happen: the wealthy would buy up the properties beside the best-performing schools, which would disadvantage those who do not have the means to do so.”
“We are developing professional learning and rolling out the £31 million TPL programme. We have a clear position on a knowledge-rich curriculum. We also have the science of learning. That updates how we understand the ways in which people learn best, because we now have a much better understanding of how the brain operates. We need to ensure that the way in which teachers deliver teaching aligns with all that information. That approach will be underpinned by evidence — it is evidence-led. The training will align with the evidence, which justifies the approach that we are taking to develop the Northern Ireland curriculum and the practices that take place in our schools.”
“There are certainly examples — the Member referenced one — where a positive impact is made outside a formal school setting. The Member referenced those organisations, and I can cite Monkstown Boxing Club as being another example of where young people who would otherwise not be in school are engaged in the education system. We support that, and I commend the organisations that the Member referenced on the work that they are taking forward, because I believe that we need an education system that is responsive to whatever way pupils and other young people best respond to and engage with education.”
“The delivery of that will very much be led by CCEA, which will help to reduce the burden on teachers and will give us important information on literacy and numeracy in particular. That will then inform how the system can respond to those needs.”
“It is not that we do not want to have controlled assessment; we do. We want to have assessment at Key Stages 1, 2 and 3. We typically benchmark once the GCSE or A-level results are published, but, if that is the only way in which we formally assess our education system, there is a problem in that many of the pupils concerned are aged 16, 17 or 18 and are therefore leaving school. We need to be able to identify the performance of pupils from Key Stage 1, Key Stage 2 and Key Stage 3. That will allow us to determine which schools we can provide additional support to. <BR /> <BR />We have looked to CCEA for the assessment process. It is developing an assessment model that will be less intensive for teachers, with peer-to-peer assessment whereby teachers observe other teachers' practice.”
“<BR /> <BR />Those actions are all interrelated. We have not just the TransformED strategy but a clear 10-point plan that provides coherence to what we will deliver. That allows us to move forward. We cannot look at one area in isolation. We cannot just update our curriculum without looking at qualifications or making sure that we provide professional learning opportunities for teachers to develop. All that needs to move together. That is why we have a 10-point plan that underpins the process through which we will take forward the transformation of our education system.”
“<BR /> <BR />The 10 actions in the plan are to review and redesign the Northern Ireland curriculum to ensure that every child enjoys an ambitious and knowledge-rich curriculum that develops their learning in a well-sequenced and explicit manner; investment in high-quality teacher professional learning; investment in curriculum resources; new literacy and numeracy strategies, based on international best practice; a new school improvement policy; a new system of attainment measures for assessment at the end of each Key Stage to set high standards for all children; a comprehensive review of qualifications; an integrated approach to tackling educational disadvantage within schools, families and communities; new legislation to ensure that all learners remain in education, apprenticeship or training until age 18; and a coherent accountability framework for education to demonstrate value to government, taxpayers and parents.”
“I thank the Member for the question. We published not only a strategy but a 10-point plan to deliver educational excellence. The 10 commitments aggregate the actions throughout the strategy and aim to give coherence and clarity to the overall plans. Each of the 10 strategic commitments aims to learn systematically from the most effective and fast-improving school systems in the world.”
“It is also a stark reminder of the challenges that we face, and it highlights the urgent need for a renewed focus on literacy and numeracy across our schools. I will therefore publish new literacy guidance for schools, which will be supported by a targeted programme for teacher professional learning. The insights gained from the 2024-25 data will inform the wider review of assessment and will play a vital role in shaping policy and interventions that support high-quality teaching and learning for all children in Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for the question. Statutory assessment is really important in providing us with the information that we need to improve our education system. <BR /> <BR />In the 2024-25 academic year, we saw a return of assessments at the end of each Key Stage for the first time since the COVID-19 pandemic. Assessments were based on teacher judgement against the levels of progression in communication and use of mathematics. Notably, nearly three in 10 pupils are not achieving at the expected level in literacy and numeracy by the end of primary school. That is a significant concern, particularly as those foundational skills are essential for pupils' future learning, well-being and life opportunities.”
“That is a really important question. The review was the outworking of an industrial agreement. Work has been undertaken by Paul Sweeney, formerly a permanent secretary in the Department of Education, and a trade union representative has also been working on it. That work is under way, and there has been engagement on workload. I expect a report to come to me in the autumn so that I can engage on its recommendations. I believe that they will make recommendations that will help address workload, but decisions that had been taken, for example on controlled assessment, are already relieving the burden of teacher workload. We have harnessed CCEA for the computer adaptive testing model, and CCEA will help us to ensure that assessments take place in a way that does not add to teachers' burden but reduces it.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker, it is absolute abuse of the point of order system to make such an allegation when it is not remotely the case.”
“It was not there. <BR /> <BR />The Member is entitled to continue to challenge me, if she wishes, but I love the "Pity me" approach that the Member takes. She will have a pop at me, but, whenever I respond in kind, she plays the victimhood card. She really needs to step up and not be so precious about the people who challenge her.”
“We provide funding, particularly through targeting social need (TSN) funding, of which £75 million is for the extended schools programme. We have Fair Start, which identified and supported various schemes through that process, and we want to make sure that we have better regular attendance. <BR /> <BR />Part of the challenge in school attendance and making sure that pupils come to school involves the appalling way in which COVID was handled. The lockdown of schools was appalling. We live with the legacy of that, and the Member's party campaigned vociferously to shut down our schools. We are seeing the ripple effect of denying children the opportunity to be in a classroom, so, if the Member is going to challenge me on what I do for pupil welfare, where was the concern for pupil welfare when it came to keeping them out of schools?”
“Part of the schemes that have been identified in the local area plans for RAISE deals with a lot of the pastoral support, attendance and the underlying issues in why young people do not attend school, so there are good proposals in the RAISE schemes. That is why it is important that we get funding rolled out and the scheme under way. <BR /> <BR />Tackling educational disadvantage and underachievement are very much part of TransformED, because we need a curriculum and an education system that are accessible to everybody. Some people will almost write a child off, and the child will not realise their full potential. Every child can be given a really good education, if we can get the education system working effectively. Pastoral support is, of course, part of what schools do.”
“We need to ensure that there is consistency across all our schools in the delivery of that curriculum and that we layer on the curriculum year on year to build up the knowledge. That will be really important in the outworkings. We have asked schools to do that in 12 months. That is a very ambitious target. Over the next 12 months, we will have a reformed curriculum. We will then need to move into the implementation phase of all that, which will take time. However, we need to get all the foundation work carried out and the new curriculum completed, and we will then move towards an implementation stage.”
“They are being tasked with taking forward the review of Northern Ireland's curriculum, which will look at every subject. It will also try to ensure that there is consistency in the curriculum as well as vertical coherence when it comes to the way in which we deliver it from primary 1 to primary 2, primary 3 and the various Key Stages. It is about how we layer on and build up knowledge in those subjects. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that Members have heard post-primary principals complain that how far pupils have covered a particular subject depends on the primary school. They will often say to me that they have to start from scratch in some subjects, because some children come with a much higher level of understanding of the subject content compared with others.”
“I thank the Member for that question. I referenced Lucy Crehan, whom I appointed to take forward the strategic review of the curriculum. That was published, and I responded formally on its recommendations. That review outlined the way in which our education system needs to be based around a new curriculum framework that is built around subject disciplines and strong, knowledge-rich content and recommended the establishment of a curriculum task force to lead the development and roll-out of that new framework. That work is very much under way. We have appointed the members of the task force, and it is already at work. It is chaired by Christine Counsell, and Lucy Crehan is its deputy chair. <BR /> <BR />We also have the task force advisory committee, to which I have appointed leading educationalists from across the British Isles.”
“I commend the West Belfast Partnership Board for the work that it has been doing to develop its plan, and I encourage the Member to become more familiar with it. The sooner that we can get funding into his community, the better the outcome will be for his constituents.”
“The Member is entirely wrong. It is not a flawed scheme; in fact, I encourage the Member to engage with the West Belfast Partnership Board, which has developed its own strategic area plan. I have had a look at the plan that has been developed in his constituency and commend it to him: it is hugely impressive. The Department is in receipt of all of those local area plans. The RAISE programme is about tackling educational underachievement and trying to help people. The schemes that are being developed are community-based, are led by community organisations and will be transformative. <BR /> <BR />Move away from the big "P" politics. I get that, at times, Members want to have a pop, but the plans will make a real impact.”
“I agree with the Member entirely that we want to encourage higher numbers of young males in particular to come into the profession.”
“The Member has raised an important point. Males are underrepresented across the teaching profession, not just among teachers but in the various management levels in schools. It is important for young people to have those role models, whether they are female or male. I would very much welcome a higher number of young males wanting to come into the profession, because it would have a positive impact. <BR /> <BR />All of us could cite teachers who made an impact in our lives. There was a male teacher in my school who had to deal with an all-boys class, of whom I was one, that was maybe a little more disruptive than others. That teacher was very much able to guide us. I can certainly trace back some of his contributions in helping to correct the errors of my ways when I was at school.”
“<BR /> <BR />The fund will run over a three-year period. It is hugely to be welcomed. Many teachers — they speak to us all — tell me that they want to continue to identify ways in which they can improve their practice and best develop their pedagogy in teaching the material that they have to cover. It is about giving them more time but also better support so that teaching practices in our classrooms can be even more effective.”
“I thank the Member for his comments. He has echoed what I hear from the principals in my constituency, who are really enthusiastic about what we are doing. One school in my constituency hosted a conference only last week, and the principal was greatly encouraged by how that went, with the sharing of good practice amongst principals who attended the event, towards which we were able to provide some funding. <BR /> <BR />The TPL fund is a £31 million investment over a three-year period. It will provide schools with dedicated, per-teacher funding to support high-quality, evidence-based professional development. Our Department will ensure that the training that schools engage in aligns with what we are taking forward by way of knowledge-rich curricula, which will make sure that the training is in line with the policies that we have set out.”
“We share what we are doing — we are better in some areas, but the Republic is better in others — on how we can collectively make sure that both jurisdictions benefit. I will continue to do that.”
“I have no constitutional objection to learning from what the Republic of Ireland is doing and saying, "How can we improve and then do better to compete?". <BR /> <BR />We are not competing just in a Northern Ireland context, so is not about comparing a school in your constituency with a school down the street. When corporations take decisions to invest at global level, a key factor in their decision-making is how educated the workforce is. Therefore, we have to compete at global level. TransformED is very much about making sure that we can improve educational outcomes for all our young people. Benchmarking at an international level is important, and, where I can learn from and engage with my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland, I will.”
“The Member is right about benchmarking internationally. We participate in the programme for international student assessment (PISA), which is an internationally recognised system of assessment, because that is where we are able to benchmark. He is right: in a number of areas of education, the Republic of Ireland outperforms Northern Ireland. When we benchmark with PISA, we find that England also outperforms Northern Ireland on literacy in particular. That is why we are making the changes. We have to look at what is happening in the Republic of Ireland, which is why I have on my international ministerial advisory panel an influential individual who was part of the education system in the Republic of Ireland. I will take best practice from wherever.”
“We can utilise the Education Committee to get behind the plan, because it will be transformational for every child, or we can go round in circles talking about academic selection.”
“I note that there was not one word of criticism about what we are doing through TransformED. I will take that as a compliment and an endorsement from the Chairman of the Committee. The default position for people who would rather not talk about teachers' professional learning, investing in our teachers and delivering a world-class curriculum is to go back to academic selection. That is a circular debate. <BR /> <BR />I say to the Member, who, as I said, is the Chairman of the Education Committee, that he can do so much better. I know that he can. He is better than resorting to going around in circles talking about academic selection. Let us engage on TransformED.”
“TransformED is the blueprint. We have published it and are delivering on it. The Member should speak to people who are actively engaging with it in the teaching profession. They have endorsed it. They are excited about what we are doing. I encourage the Member, who can get quite excited at times, to get excited about the plan. It will make a difference to his constituency.”
“The Member should raise his ambitions and get to the challenge on the horizon that I am setting him. Let us make every school a good school. That is what TransformED is doing. It is transformational. Do not take my word for it: go and speak to principals. Hundreds of principals attended the inaugural TransformED conference. We surveyed principals, and there was overwhelming satisfaction with and support for what we are doing. <BR /> <BR />The Member speaks on behalf of the Opposition. I get that it is a place where Members can luxuriate on the Back Benches and not take responsibility for trying to make changes to our society and where they can speak against all that is wrong while others step up, take responsibility and govern to make this place even better. That is what we are doing with the education system.”