Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“St Brigid's College was one of 28 schools announced under the major capital works programme in March 2022. The schools were scored and ranked using the published major works protocol, which examines the condition and suitability of the buildings, as well as other factors, such as levels of deprivation. All school projects from the 2022 announcement were paused in April 2023 by the then permanent secretary owing to the extremely difficult budget position. No planning had been started for those projects. <BR /> <BR />When I responded to the previous question, I detailed how, in February this year, I had announced that seven of the highest-scoring schools from 2022's announcement would proceed to the procurement of integrated consultancy teams. That will ensure a flow of projects into the early stages of development and design.”
“Since 2012, a total of 103 projects have been announced under the major capital works programme. A further 11 projects, which were initially announced for funding from 'A Fresh Start', were transferred to the programme in 2024. Some 38 are complete; five are currently on-site; 18 are at the technical design and pre-tender stage, seven of which are in the integrated supply team procurement phase and will be on-site in the first quarter of 2025, and one of which will move on-site following site acquisition; nine are at the concept design stage; one is at the preparation and brief stage; 14 are at the strategic definition and pre-business case stage; and 22 are on hold. The 22 that are on hold include the 21 remaining projects from the 2022 announcement.”
“I very much wish that I had been able to take forward the plans for all the schools on the list, but, earlier, I highlighted the serious amount of capital resources that would be needed in order to do so. It is billions, not millions, of pounds. When I came into office, I did allow seven projects to move forward. My doing that has allowed the various integrated consultant teams to be procured for the projects, and it is anticipated that appointments to the teams will be made in early 2025. The seven from that list are Carrickfergus Academy; Dromore High School; Edmund Rice College; Loreto College, Coleraine; Malone Integrated College; Mercy College Belfast; and Portadown College.”
“I hope that the work that the managing authority does will come through to the Department to allow me to make a decision on it. We continue to provide temporary variations to meet the school's enrolment needs, but there is clearly a challenge when it comes to what its official enrolment numbers are and what the reality is. I would like to get to a place where we can regularise that issue.”
“The Member's question is on the Education Authority's 'Operational Plan 2'. The draft document has been provided to the Department of Education and is being reviewed in its various business areas, but a submission has not yet come to me as Minister for my consideration. It is therefore being worked through. I hope to be able to make progress, but that document is on the general operational plan that was spoken about. <BR /> <BR />The Member has campaigned on the enrolment issue. The school is very fortunate to have him champion its causes, because he is dogged in his pursuit, but I know from a meeting that we had that the managing authority is to take forward the issue. That will lead to a development proposal (DP). DPs ultimately come to me to make a final decision on.”
“I am sorry to say that the position regarding the major capital project for Dean Maguirc College has not changed since my most recent update in September, so the project remains on hold. As previously advised, I will continue to keep under review all the projects that were announced under the major capital works programme in March 2022 that are currently on hold, but the programme will be very much dependent on its securing significant additional and sustained capital funding.”
“As a working-class Protestant boy who went through the transfer test — I went to Laurelhill Community College, a school that I was incredibly proud to go to — my focus is on ensuring that all schools get the right support to ensure that, whichever school pupils go to, they get the best possible education. That means making sure that the curriculum is fit for purpose, which is why I am carrying out a review. It means supporting teachers in their professional learning and development to make sure that they are empowered to deliver education for all young people. That is my focus. If the Member can come forward with a solution to the issue that will garner consensus not just in here but across society, I will be more than happy to engage with him on it.”
“I have no such plans. My Department is not responsible for the administration or operation of post-primary transfer tests. The Schools' Entrance Assessment Group (SEAG), a company formally established in February 2022, oversees a single common entrance assessment. Participation in the assessments is entirely a matter of parental choice. Transfer tests have never been compulsory for any school or pupil, but they provide an opportunity for pupils to gain a place at a selective post-primary school of their choosing on the basis of the school's admissions criteria.”
“There is a backlog of cases, but, ultimately, we need to have the resource and to have it in a timely fashion. With Executive spend, funding is sometimes received late in the financial year. You cannot stand up a contractor to move in to carry out a significant refurbishment, extension or school enhancement programme late in the financial year. You can spend on it some capital equipment, but, if we are to have sustained investment in contractual work schemes, funding needs to be provided at the start of the financial year. That is why the ask that I will make at the Executive for the next financial year will be significant.”
“I thank the Member for the question. Regrettably, funding is now largely being spent on urgent maintenance issues: it is about just keeping schools open and safe. Indeed, some principals have challenged me on how safe the environments that they have to work in actually are and what it takes to meet the criteria for being an urgent scheme to have work carried out. <BR /> <BR />Schools should contact the Education Authority's help desk. It is there to provide support, particularly for what are deemed to be unavoidable minor work schemes. Again, it is the Education Authority that needs to take that forward for controlled schools and the Department's estates operation team that takes it forward for all other schools. <BR /> <BR />We will support and help schools.”
“When it comes to new builds, school enhancement programmes and ongoing minor works schemes for maintenance, there is a backlog of hundreds of millions of pounds. There is a programme of works between new builds, school enhancements and what we need for special education over the next 10 years that will cost in the region of £3 billion. If we are serious about our schools estate, we need to be serious when it comes to the allocation of funding to the Department of Education.”
“I join the Chair of the Committee in commending Larne High School on the work that it undertakes. Like many schools, it delivers excellence in facilities that are not excellent. Teachers and others involved in education very much put the children first in what they are trying to deliver, but they could do so much more with the curriculum in buildings that are fit for purpose. <BR /> <BR />The Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO) highlighted the hundreds of millions of pounds that our education system needs for the schools estate. Over many years, sufficient funding has not gone into the schools estate, and there is not sufficient funding this year. We will be required to address that in future years.”
“I hope to see the Education Authority moving forward to provide that flexibility.”
“The Education Authority (EA) is operationally responsible for the use of funds for, for example, minor works schemes. It needs to ensure the efficient use of taxpayers' funding to do that, and its procurement process is supposed to achieve those desired outcomes. When it comes to major capital and school enhancement programmes, the Department will take those forward. Again, we are guided by all the regulations on those. <BR /> <BR />Value for money is important. How we procure from our suppliers is important. Members have brought to my attention their concern about the bureaucratic process that schools have to go through for very low spend, such as on securing a painter, having a piece of carpet fitted or hiring an electrician to fix a light bulb. Such things require more flexibility when it comes to a very small level of funding.”
“I assure Members that I will continue to make a strong case for increased and sustained development in our education system.”
“Unfortunately, that means that many works to the external fabric of a school building or within the curtilage of a school site that are not essential to meeting health and safety obligations, disability access, fire safety requirements or safeguarding purposes are not currently being progressed. The bottom line is that I can do only so much with the budget made available to me. <BR /> <BR />Children across Northern Ireland have the right to be educated in schools that are comfortable and safe, of good quality and properly designed and resourced to support their learning. That will require a significant step change in the level of capital investment by the Executive and an increase in the resource budget allocated to maintenance.”
“Maintenance of the external fabric of buildings is generally a landlord maintenance item under the common funding scheme for the local management of schools and, as such, is typically funded from the resource maintenance budget. Larger schemes that upgrade, replace or alter the building or infrastructure are funded from the capital minor works budget. <BR /> <BR />Against a very challenging budget position, the Department’s priority for maintenance and capital investment is to keep schools open and pupils safe and to provide additional specialist places for rapidly increasing numbers of children with special educational needs (SEN).”
“I would love to see that scheme developed in more places than it is. The identification of need is based on the multiple index of deprivation, so there is a sound evidence base for where the schemes should operate. Would I like them to be extended into other parts of Northern Ireland? Yes, I would, but, like everything, that is subject to the resources that we have to back it up.”
“That is why the comprehensive strategy, including the areas that the Member touched on, will be drawn out as we develop it. We will then need to put in the resource to make a difference in those young people's lives.”
“The Executive have moved at pace to take forward the initial schemes that we have stood up. That is why priority was given to the childcare subsidy scheme, which is delivering £1 million every month, drawing down the tax-free allowance that we get from Westminster as the component part on which we built the scheme. We have also stepped in to provide support for the very early years to which the Member referred through organisations such as Sure Start that do incredible work. We have provided a significant uplift, stabilised the services and expanded into areas that were temporary and made them permanent. That is a demonstration of the Executive making sure that we stand by our young people, but I want to do a lot more than we have been able to do.”
“I know that the Member has championed the issues for a period of time, and I thank her for that. It will be my Department that brings forward the work on the strategy. That is the detailed work that we are engaging on. We will pull together the various strands to allow us to take that forward. I will lead on it, but, obviously, it is an Executive priority and a flagship project. The funding for it does not sit in my Department, but I will draw that down, subject to bringing forward all the appropriate plans. That is why it is important that all parties support that important work and make sure that the resource is there for what will be, when I bring it forward, an ambitious, comprehensive strategy.”
“<BR /> <BR />While it is widely accepted that early years provision in Northern Ireland is of a high standard, members of my Department's stakeholder engagement forum, which was set up to inform the development of the early learning and childcare strategy, have indicated that the introduction of an early years developmental framework has the potential to provide a useful benchmark for all providers and ensure greater consistency. They have confirmed their willingness to be involved in further scoping and to assist in the co-design of such a framework, if required. Their involvement is essential to ensuring that the consideration of options is evidence-informed and that any recommendations are deliverable. I plan to bring forward a draft strategy for Executive consideration and public consultation by autumn 2025.”
“<BR /> <BR />All preschool settings participating in the preschool education programme are required to adhere to the curricular guidance for preschool education. That sets out six areas of learning that children at that age and stage of development should experience through play and other relevant activities. Staff use the framework to plan, review and develop their provision, which is tailored to meet each child's needs. The preschool guidance also links to the foundation stage curriculum, ensuring that children experience a high-quality, joined-up educational experience.”
“I confirm that the introduction of an early learning framework covering that age group is being considered as part of the work to develop a draft early learning and childcare strategy. Such a framework will take account of relevant existing guidance in programmes such as Sure Start and the preschool education programme (PSEP), the Department of Health’s minimum standards and international best practice. <BR /> <BR />The developmental programme for two- to three-year-olds in the Sure Start programme already has a framework in place to promote effective learning through ongoing evaluation of the holistic progress of children's physical, personal, social and emotional development, as well as their language, communication and thinking skills.”
“I thank the Member for those comments. He is right to highlight the necessity of making sure that the devices are registered on the national Circuit. That is absolutely vital. There is no point in having the device and only a small section of the community knowing about it. We need to make sure that they are all registered on the national Circuit because that can make a difference when somebody is in need of those devices.”
“<BR /> <BR />I absolutely associate myself with the Member's comments and pay tribute to the family as well.”
“I am more than happy to associate myself with the Member's comments about Cormac McAnallen and the work done over many years to highlight the issues. The tragic stories of sudden death on sporting fields have generated the interest that exists now in making sure that we provide the right support. <BR /> <BR />The Member is involved in sport. I am involved in sport and coach a number of clubs. When a participant in a club that I am in says to me, as a coach, "I have a heart monitor on; just keep a track of my heart rate", it makes me nervous about all of that. There is a challenge as to how, across schools, sporting clubs and society, we make sure that appropriate devices are available and accessible and that we are prepared with the skills that we need to intervene when something like this happens.”
“I thank the Member for his comments and for the work that he has pursued on the issue. Again, he is right to pay tribute to Diane Dodds on the issue: in recent weeks, she has been pressing me about it. Michelle McIlveen was also involved, but Diane Dodds, only a number of weeks ago, raised in the Assembly the importance of having defibs. She engaged with me on that as well. It is an issue that all of us very much care about and want to see implemented. <BR /> <BR />I will come back to the Member about whether youth centres will be part of the scheme. I will follow up with the Member after the statement.”
“Where we can, I would like to see defibs being available, but they have to be in an environment where there is a constant temperature, and it is about what kind of box you would use to make sure that that happens. Allow the process to see how many of the devices we can locate externally to schools. <BR /> <BR />The Member asked about other jurisdictions. As I mentioned, in England, schools were provided with defibrillators in 2023. The Welsh Government offered defibs to all post-primary schools as well, but they have not been rolled by the Scottish Government or in the Republic of Ireland, where it remains a matter for individual schools. I am delighted that Northern Ireland has been able to do this. Not every other jurisdiction in the British Isles has taken it forward so far, but I very much hope that other countries will follow suit.”
“I thank the Member for those comments. She is absolutely right to highlight the fact that, particularly in those rural localities, often there is only the school in the area, and therefore access to the devices will be important.”
“Yes, it is available. CCEA produced and developed the app. It helps to align the initiative with the curriculum, because CPR is part of the curriculum. I was at Methody a number of weeks ago when we launched the CPR app. I was able to see how it works on mobile phone devices to provide training to young people, who were then able to put that into real-world practice while I was there. Yes, the app is available, and it will complement having the defibrillators in schools. I very much hope that, while CPR is in the curriculum, bringing defibrillators into schools will help to generate a higher priority for the delivery of that part of the curriculum in schools.”
“This is very much on track to be delivered so that every school will receive its device before the end of the academic year. By June 2025, it will be rolled out in every school. That will also keep us in line with, for example, England, where every school received a defibrillator in 2023. They recognised the importance of it, and I am glad that we have been able to do it as well.”
“Yes, I pay tribute to them. In all our constituencies, community groups engaged in fundraising to provide the devices. Often, a family member has lost a loved one or a friend loses somebody close to them, and they then get actively involved. Why did this become a priority for me? Why did I want it to happen? It was through some of the engagement that I had with young people who spoke to me about friends who had a cardiac arrest and, on one occasion, lost their life. That lady is now actively involved in promoting CPR and creating awareness. I thank all those who raise funds and create awareness for what they do. We, as a Government, have to enable our communities to respond. This will be a good enabler of that. <BR /> <BR />The Education Authority will now carry out the procurement process.”
“CPR is critical if we are to make sure that we can try to save lives when a cardiac arrest happens.”
“It speaks to the wider community response and the need for greater awareness. We all can tell stories of someone who had a cardiac arrest in whatever situation. There might be nervousness about how to respond and what to do. The benefit of defibrillators is that you do not need training. It is a challenge to all of us. When was the last time we updated our community resuscitation strategy? We have many community responders and community groups that have taken on the community responder role. That supplements the Ambulance Service in how it responds. All of us should ask ourselves, "If someone was with me right now and had a cardiac arrest, what would I do?". If you do not know the answer, that is a challenge: get yourself prepared. Where is the nearest AED? Have you been trained in CPR?”
“I run or try to run around Wallace Park in Lisburn, and I know that there is a defibrillator there because the council put it in and registered it. We need to make sure that they are accessible.”
“The Member is absolutely right. Those unregistered defibs now exist in a number of areas, but we need to know where they are.”
“We carried out the survey to identify which schools have the devices and which do not, but not every school responded. We estimate that around 600 schools in Northern Ireland require the devices to be placed in them. All schools are able to avail themselves of the measure. We want this to be rolled out. Obviously, the Education Authority will now take forward the procurement exercise. That will be done in engagement with schools to ensure that those that need a device are able to receive one.”
“He spoke to me about how he may not have been here, had that device not been available and had the people who were on the rugby pitch not known where to go to get it. Thankfully, Methody had one of the devices. Oliver is now back playing his sport. The recovery process that he has gone through has enabled have a very active life. He got the support that was needed at the time to save his life, and, because the device was applied to him, that enabled a much better recovery. When you meet people like Oliver — I also spoke to his father — you understand that that is life-changing. He may not have been here but is here because there was a defib in his school. I want to make sure that every school has such a device so that, if that happens again in other school, that pupil will get the same opportunity to have their life saved.”
“I thank the Member for that question. We surveyed schools to find out the number that currently have the devices. Two hundred and ninety-seven schools have installed them already, which recognises their importance and the need for them that exists. For schools that have a device, we will undertake, as part of the roll-out, to replace their devices when their life cycle requires it or, indeed, the batteries and pads, which need to be maintained. <BR /> <BR />Those 297 schools responded to the survey to say that they already had a device. Having a device in school is why Oliver McGreevy's life was saved at the age of 14 when he was playing rugby at Methodist College. Only a number of weeks ago, I met Oliver when we launched the CPR training.”
“The Member is right to ask that question. In installing the devices, we will also undertake to meet the costs when batteries and pads need to be replaced, because those component parts require replacement before the device needs to be replaced. We will provide the support that is needed for the ongoing maintenance of the devices when they are installed.”
“I acknowledge the Member's support. It is a life-saving device. We in Northern Ireland should be proud of it, because it was Professor Frank Pantridge, a native of my constituency, who invented the technology that brought about the first defib. His statue is proudly on display outside Lisburn and Castlereagh City Council's headquarters. It is an important device, and I am delighted that we are able to extend its roll-out across Northern Ireland.”
“To be fair, that was more of a comment than a question.”
“Not every school will be able to do that because of fencing and the nature of the school's environment, but, where a school is open outside of school hours, I would very much like it if someone, responding to an incident in the wider community, were able to be directed to an accessible device on the external-facing part of a school building. As we roll out the project, we will seek to facilitate as much opportunity as possible for the community to avail itself of the devices.”
“I thank the Member for those comments. He is right to raise the point about where they will be located. That is why we want every defib to be registered on the national network, the Circuit. Defibs in some locations have not been officially registered. If a defib is not on the national register, whenever you ring 999 and seek advice as to where the nearest defib is, the people at the end of the call will not be able to tell you, "It's at your local community centre", or, "It's at your school". That is why it is important that the devices be registered: it will help with accessibility. <BR /> <BR />Many schools have all of the security and fencing around them, but some do not. We will see whether the devices can be located on the external part of a school building so that they can be accessed by the community.”
“In conjunction with the work that we do with St John Ambulance, it will have a clear health benefit, but it also ties in with the curriculum. The basis on which I have been able to bring forward the initiative is that it is a curriculum-led capital programme. CPR is part of our curriculum, so it meets that criterion. It also has the wider benefit of positive health impacts.”
“I thank the Member for his support for the project that we are taking forward. He is right to raise the capital pressures that exist in my Department and others. In advance of getting near the end of the financial year, I have already been saying to my Department, "Let's make sure that we're in a position where we can spend capital funding". As you approach four months to go, it is difficult to stand up new contractors to carry out electrical or building work. The ability of the private sector to respond to that kind of capital work makes it difficult to spend funding on other capital projects. However, we are able to use capital funding for devices such as these. <BR /> <BR />Health's finances are very stretched, so the initiative will be 100% funded by my Department.”
“The device is capable of making people alert to whether a shock should be applied to the heart or whether they need to continue with CPR, so it can be used in the absence of formal training. In schools, resuscitation is part of the curriculum. Our schools are teaching young people how they can obtain the necessary skills. <BR /> <BR />Many years ago, when I was at high school, I completed my St John Ambulance certificate in CPR training. That training still takes place. We have invested in a new app for CPR training. The roll-out of the defibs will raise awareness to higher levels, and their promotion in school settings will help CPR training to be prioritised.”
“I thank the Chairman for his comments. He is right to highlight the question of what price we put on somebody's life. Today's announcement is about intervening as early as possible so that we can sustain life, enabling the patient to make a full recovery. In circumstances in which that intervention cannot be made, it can take longer to resuscitate, which can have far-reaching medical consequences that reduce a person's quality of life. It can also require significant investment by the health service in providing the individual with lifelong support. We are therefore very much taking forward an invest-to-save project. <BR /> <BR />AEDs are designed to make sure that they can be used without training. I have been in a number of schools and taken part in the resuscitation programme.”
“I thank the Member for her kind remarks, which are appreciated. All Members will welcome the announcement, but it is made in recognition of the importance of providing such support in our school settings. <BR /> <BR />The Member is right to raise that issue. We carried out a survey, to which schools responded. A number of them already have an AED, and some of them have more than one, given the size of the school. We want to make sure that there is at least one in every school. Some schools have already invested in more than one AED because of the nature of the campus. My announcement is about ensuring that every school has at least one device, but the Member's comments are well made, given the size of some campuses. Should there be more provided? I want to make sure that all schools at least have one.”