Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“I thank the Member for the question. Unless you are deemed an officially integrated school, the Alliance Party does not care. That is why it has opposed the Strule Shared Education Campus. At every opportunity, it has opposed bringing together 4,000 children at an iconic, landmark educational campus in a town that was blighted by the Troubles and suffered one of the most heinous crimes and largest losses of life. Here we are leading an iconic way forward for Northern Ireland, and who is against it? The Alliance Party. It and others need to open their eyes and become somewhat more progressive and broad-minded, because it certainly does not demonstrate that when it comes to articulating views on controlled schools. It is only the integrated sector that matters to the Alliance Party.”
“Where is the equality? Again, we pose this question: why single out that school? I think that it is obvious why that school is being singled out and why the decisions are being questioned.”
“Setting aside the Member's remarks in his Member's statement, which I was here for, I will say that he has brought really helpful information to me on classroom assistants, the work to support them and other issues, and he has shown a genuine and sincere interest in how we can help our education system. I appreciate that, at times, you have to go out and do the party political stuff, and that is what the Member is doing today. I will set that aside. <BR /> <BR />What the Member does not say is that St Joseph's Boys' School in Londonderry received over half a million pounds for a 4G pitch in 2023. In the last five years, £7·6 million has been spent through minor works schemes on non-controlled schools in the Foyle constituency. Where is the commentary on the funding provided for schools that are not controlled? Where is the fairness?”
“The journalist who asked the question knew that the Department's website was wrong. Before the article was published, information was provided confirming that it was wrong. The departmental position was updated, because the delegated limit is £1 million. I thank the Member for asking the question. Whilst we have provided factual and accurate information, people in the Assembly and elsewhere have deliberately manipulated it, and you have to ask yourself why. Why would people want to deliberately manipulate it when they have the accurate information? I will leave others to judge why they are so opposed to Lisneal College receiving that funding. We see it for exactly what it is.”
“He is absolutely right to fight for that school, just as every Member is right to fight for their schools. You should do more of it, but I commend those that do. I repeat that the decision to fund that project was not taken by me; it was taken by the Education Authority.”
“I am sorry to disappoint the Member — it is probably not the first time — but it will take more than a one-word answer. He certainly wanted to frame his question with a particular agenda. Members whom I engage with when I meet schools, including from the Alliance Party, say openly, "Minister, we need funding from the Education Authority for these windows to be replaced", or, "for a car park to be extended". Are the Member and the Alliance Party now saying that never again will any of Alliance's elective representatives advocate or challenge for funding from my Department or the Education Authority? No, they are not saying that. Of course, they are going to do that. Not for the first time, there is hypocrisy from the Alliance Party. <BR /> <BR />I commend Gary Middleton for championing the cause of a school in his constituency.”
“I thank the Member for her question. She is right: a lot of good work has been done by the task force to get us to this point. I set a really challenging date for the task force to complete its work. To build on that progress, I have asked the EA, the Controlled Schools' Support Council and my Department to prioritise this work. I have asked the task force to continue its role, which will aid effective collaboration across the organisations and beyond, as the proposals are implemented. I will also expect to receive regular updates on progress to ensure that the momentum continues.”
“I am responsible for major new schools and school enhancement programmes. When I announced major new capital programmes for new builds this year, they were for a balanced number of schools reflective of all sectors. People can rightly scrutinise decisions that I have taken, but they cannot make allegations about decisions that were not my responsibility and were for the Education Authority. <BR /> <BR />I want to support all schools. I trust that, when it comes to the Budget that will be passed in the Assembly in a number of weeks, Members will support the Department of Education on that. Then, we will be able to do so much more for all our schools.”
“The Member is absolutely right to challenge me about the support that is needed for the school that he mentioned, just as many Members whom I have met have challenged me, the Department of Education and the Education Authority about maintenance requirements in our schools. The needs that are required to be fixed are well documented. That is why I ask for way more than the amount of capital funding that I am granted, because I know that we need to get the support for our schools. A total of £29 million was allocated for minor works schemes. The delegated authority for the Education Authority to take those decisions is £1 million. That decision, then, does not sit with me.”
“I understand the frustration and sentiment that the Member expressed. The story was put out on Friday, despite the information that had been provided to make sure that accuracy was associated with it. A statement was released by the Education Authority over the weekend, which provided the facts. Yet Members are either unwittingly or, as I feel, deliberately, which is certainly what the school feels, trying to use it for their own political agenda. I am happy to be held to account by Members in the House on policy and decisions that we need to take on things such as the curriculum and all the rest of it, and I am more than capable of answering for that. However, I will not stand by while my integrity and the integrity of others who were involved in that particular issue is denigrated wrongly in pursuit of Members' own political agendas.”
“I encourage that collaboration to take place across all our sectors. Should it lead to a single managing authority, I would be very much open to trying to pursue that as an ultimate objective, but let us not leave the controlled sector behind.”
“I thank the Member for that question. It is a good one to ask about the independent review's recommendation on a single managing authority. Before we can get to a single managing authority, we need equity. We will not move, all of a sudden, to a single managing authority that will incorporate the Catholic maintained sector and other sectors. We need to address the immediate short-term failings, which are in the controlled sector. <BR /> <BR />Of course, if people want a single managing authority for all sectors, I am happy to have that conversation. That is a valid point for Members to raise, but it should not be to the detriment of addressing the failings that exist now for one particular sector: the controlled sector. My statement is very much about correcting that inequality and providing the right support.”
“— not only to me but to Lisneal College and the principal of that school. It is an outstanding school that supports the controlled sector in that part of Foyle. That is what Members should do when it comes to that issue.”
“They have a greater say in the funding decisions for minor works schemes than I have. <BR /> <BR />Let us not repeat a false narrative. It does not matter how many times you want to retell the past and try to phrase the truth in a different manner: facts are facts. The Member's opinion and conjecture on this have been completely wrong. The Member, and others, should retract such statements —”
“I have noted the Member's contribution on social media. She may want to reflect on that, as I certainly am reflecting on what she and others have been putting on Twitter and the inferences that are being made. I outlined in my statement that I had no role in taking the decision to fund this scheme. The Education Authority had £29 million available to it for minor works projects. I am not involved in deciding what funding goes where, because it is a delegated limit of £1 million. In fact, other parties have a greater say in that funding than I do, because they have elected reps on the board of the Education Authority. If Members want to ask questions of the Education Authority on the decisions that it has taken, they must consider the fact that there are Sinn Féin members and representatives from other political parties on the board.”
“When it comes to taking this forward, we need to reflect on the terminology used in law that defines the schools that are run by the EA as controlled schools. They are schools that are there to be reflective of the community, and I hope that, in the engagement that will take place as we go forward, that can be reflected, because schools from the controlled sector very much could be called "community schools". That is what they are.”
“I thank the Member for his comments — I share his thinking. The controlled sector comprises schools that are controlled by the Education Authority. That is what it is. Some put a negative connotation on what that means, but our controlled schools represent the most diverse sector in our education system in terms of pupil background. Members need to have a look at this — without their own political agenda — and then recognise the excellent work that is done in our controlled schools, because they do a disservice to all those principals and teachers by the way in which they continually run down the controlled sector. That is what they hear; that is what they tell me. <BR /> <BR />The Member raises an interesting point, and it is one on which I have engaged with the Controlled Schools' Support Council.”
“I quoted the independent review in my statement, and I note the inability of Members to quote back at me what the independent review said. This decision is based on the independent review; this is an evidence-based approach. It is based upon the feedback from principals. If Members want to ignore what those principals are saying, that speaks to the bigger problem that they have in supporting controlled schools.”
“I thank the Member for the question. It is not a case of setting myself against what people have outlined. I listen to MLAs in the Chamber from all parties. Since I have been in post, every political party has expressed its concerns about the Education Authority, but now, when it suits one's agenda, the Education Authority is a paragon of efficiency and efficacy. People see that for what it is — certainly, we see it for what it is. This is very much grounded in the evidence of supporting the controlled sector schools. I trust that people will be open to recognising the challenges that many principals in the controlled sector face and that they will support this, because it is about benefits for the children who require us to be engaged in the issue.”
“I thank the Member for the question. We envisage that supporting the controlled schools unit in the EA will require around £1·2 million of resource to be provided. That will allow the unit to be set up and established, which will then create a better service for supporting our controlled schools. That investment will be money well spent.”
“Controlled schools are managed by the EA, and not particularly well when it comes to the processes and the decisions that it has been taking. This is about equality of treatment, and I often hear people in the Chamber, particularly those opposite, talk about equality and treating everybody the same. Let us just test how well people treat people when it comes to equality.”
“I thank the Member for that. He rightly highlights the excellent work that is taking place in our schools despite the structural deficits that exist in the education system to support controlled schools. I have been hugely impressed by the work that I have seen across the education system, but we have to do so much more to provide those who are involved with that support. That is why the statement today is critical. The Education Authority is the managing authority for the controlled sector. That is a unique function that it has. It is there to provide services to all sectors, which it does, but it has a unique managing authority role for the controlled sector. The Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), which is not part of the Education Authority, is the managing authority for Catholic maintained schools.”
“I have engaged with the Members opposite in their own schools, listened to the concerns and provided support. If the Member is so concerned about the capital needs of the education sector, for which I have bid well in excess of half a billion pounds, he should speak to his Finance Minister, who has not supported me.”
“Do not judge me by your own standards. I have been the Minister of Education for all sectors.”
“No. I say this to the Member: do not judge me by one's own sectarian standards.”
“Given that Protestant working-class boys are the cohort that is failing the most, which is not the same in our Catholic maintained sector, I really hope that Members are not saying that we should not provide those people with the support that they need.”
“The controlled sector comprises 49% of all schools. It is diverse. I outlined it. Irish-medium schools are included in that sector. It is very much an inclusive sector in our education system, and I trust that the Education Committee will recognise those failings and support the changes that need to be made in order for those principals and schools to operate effectively for the benefit of the pupils. Ultimately, the pupils have to be at the core of what we do. The evidence has shown that pupils who are in the controlled sector, particularly those from socially disadvantaged backgrounds, are a consideration.”
“As part of the work of the task force, research was commissioned, and, overwhelmingly, the response from controlled schools was that they were being failed by the Education Authority. I quoted the independent review in my statement, which highlighted the failings of the Education Authority towards the controlled sector. I have outlined the rationale for taking this forward. I hope that Members are not saying that controlled schools have to be second class when it comes to our education system, because that is what the Member is implying when he says, in respect of my proposal, that we should not be taking forward a narrow agenda.”
“As I just said in the statement, for the Member's benefit if she missed it, £1 million is the delegated authority that the EA has for minor works schemes.”
“A feasibility report was conducted in May 2022 and a business case submitted in June 2022. Planning permission was received in 2023 and a construction tender was awarded in December 2024. That is the normal timeline for such projects.”
“That in no way precludes greater collaboration or further changes to the structure of our education system to support our schools to enable every child to be happy, learning and succeeding. I have asked the relevant organisations to prioritise the implementation of those changes, and I will provide updates on progress as appropriate. <BR /> <BR />Finally, in relation to the press story at Lisneal College, contrary to what has been reported, the project was funded within the normal EA minor works budget. The EA has delegated authority for projects up to £1 million. The EA followed its own procedures in selecting the project. The project predates my time in office, with the pitch being identified for replacement after a safety inspection in December 2019.”
“Changing structures will not, in isolation, fully address those challenges, but improved support for the sector can play a part in bringing about greater consistency and equity of support in our education system, as promoted by the independent review. Given the scale and reach of the controlled sector, such changes will also support the effective delivery of my broader reform agenda. <BR /> <BR />Some may ask why I have identified this solution rather than the single managing authority that was envisaged by the independent review panel. My response is clear: I have prioritised the greatest need that the review itself outlined for the largest sector. I do so in the knowledge that targeted solutions are typically brought to fruition more quickly and effectively than broader change, however well intentioned it is.”
“An analysis of inspection data by the task force also outlined that controlled schools are more likely to enter formal intervention than Catholic maintained schools. To borrow a line from George Orwell:”
“I support the proposal. This approach can achieve the best of both worlds: preparing for a dedicated managing authority in the medium term, while bringing about improvements for the support of our controlled schools in the shorter term. That will provide tailored, proactive, relational and consistent support for our largest school sector. The independent review outlined the disparities in educational outcomes between controlled and Catholic maintained schools, which it partly attributed to differing approaches and support for the sectors. It stated:”
“<BR /> <BR />The proposal is informed by further exploration of the challenges facing the controlled sector in Northern Ireland. It builds on evidence from the independent review of education and involved substantial stakeholder engagement, particularly with school leaders. The evidence underlined, amongst other challenges, the need for enhanced dedicated support; development of a controlled-sector ethos; support for leaders and effective governance; and improved collaboration across and beyond the sector.”
“It is to be an interim, collaborative model designed to facilitate the delivery of tangible improvements for controlled schools in the short to medium term. That is broadly consistent with the interim proposal from the independent review panel. The unit should aim to be in operation by the start of the new school year in September 2025. <BR /> <BR />Phase 2 is a managing authority for controlled schools that will be a dedicated body with managing authority responsibilities, developed to provide focused governance and strategic leadership for controlled schools. The model will require legislation to transfer identified duties and functions to it. Phase 2 will also incorporate evaluation and learning from phase 1. Efforts will be made to establish the managing authority for controlled schools in the current Assembly term, if possible.”
“I am reminded of the response of Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, to being told that something just could not be done. He said, "It's really interesting that you say that, because we are going to do it". <BR /> <BR />I am particularly grateful to Mark Baker for chairing the task force and to senior officials in DE and the EA for their work to make that happen in the timescale that was provided. As a result of that intensive work, rather than a prolonged period of navel-gazing, I hope that changes will begin to be made in the coming months and that the difference will be felt on the ground before too long. <BR /> <BR />The task force has since reported to me, proposing delivery in two phases. Phase 1 is a controlled schools unit (CSU) established in the Education Authority.”
“As a result, in September 2024, I established a task force comprising senior representatives from the Controlled Schools' Support Council (CSSC), the Education Authority and my Department. The group was asked to develop a proposed model for controlled schools support, to include a dedicated body with managing authority responsibility. Its task was to identify immediate solutions to provide the sector with effective and equitable support and management in the short and long term. I instructed the group to commence that work without delay, and I asked it to report back with proposals by the end of December 2024. I appreciate that the timetable was challenging, but the interests of schools and children cannot be subservient to bureaucratic delays.”
“It outlined controlled school leaders' perception that the Education Authority (EA) is:”
“I previously outlined my view that the current system is failing controlled schools owing to its construct, as per the findings of the independent review of education. The review report highlighted:”
“I wish to update the House on support arrangements for controlled schools. The controlled schools sector is the largest such sector in Northern Ireland, comprising 49% of all schools. It is a particularly diverse sector, supporting nursery, special, primary, secondary, grammar, integrated and Irish-medium schools and teaching almost 150,000 of our children and young people.”
“I am confident that there will be collaboration as we seek to put forward a new way to provide support to those children and young people who need it.”
“I assure the Member that I have engaged with the Minister of Health on those issues. We have met the Member's party colleagues about special schools, but I have also engaged with the Minister separately. We have a joint Health and Education oversight group that will assist in how we develop that work. That group is led by senior officials in both Departments, and it will make sure that there is that collaboration. I have no reason to believe — in fact, I am more than confident to state this on the record — that the Minister of Health does not share the same ambition as me, which says that Education on its own cannot meet the needs and that those issues require the Department of Health to be involved in as well.”
“I thank the Member for that question. I spoke on the need to make sure that we have the appropriate allied health professions aligned to those impact teams that are being set up. That will require the Department of Health to work with us to make sure that we can provide that support. Again, it is about making sure that we provide the right support when it is needed. It should not be the case that parents have to seek legal recourse to get a statement of educational need. That is a result of a failure in our provision, and we need to reduce the number of statements, but we will be able to reduce them only by providing the services in the first place.”
“Absolutely, I will do that. It is as a result of the positive relationship that we have developed with the trade unions that the pay and grading review was carried out. That was a significant piece of work requiring tens of millions of pounds to implement, and the Finance Minister worked with me so that we could secure the funding for it. That implementation process had two stages in order to reflect those agreements. We have implemented the first stage, and, come 1 April, the second phase will be implemented. That came about through the kind of cooperation that I believe there should be between the public sector, government and trade unions to make sure that we support our workforce. Similar to me, they want the needs of children to be front and centre of the kind of model that we seek to implement. I will continue to engage with them.”
“I would love to see a pathway on to which we can move classroom assistants to allow them to become teaching assistants and teachers. It is an indictment of our system that one classroom assistant, whom I met in a school, has had to step out of her employment to go into full-time education to become a teacher. In other jurisdictions, they can take those classroom assistants, provide support and train them to become teachers. We need to find ways to provide those pathways.”
“I absolutely agree with the Member. They are deeply valued. I suspect that the question goes back to the statement that I made on the reform of special educational needs. I outlined clearly that principals whom I meet have said, "I can support our children and young people in a more effective manner that is beneficial for young people's educational output and development and that creates a higher level of independence". Therefore, as we move through the reform of the SEN statementing process, we need to ensure that we give that flexibility to our schools, work on an evidence-based approach and act in the interests of the children and young people when are providing them with support. There are exceptional classroom assistants, and I want to identify pathways to develop their professionalism.”
“In addition, I assure the Member that, in light of the challenging budget outlook that Education has faced and continues to face, my Department continues to press the EA for savings and efficiencies with a view to maximising my Department's budget allocation for the benefit of children and school communities. Every pound that we save through a more efficient public administration is funding that I can put towards our children and young people. I am not about protecting institutions and structures; I am about reforming them to make sure that we maximise every pound for the benefit of our children and young people. That should be our priority when it comes to taking these decisions.”
“I thank the Member for that, and I encourage him and other Members to continue to ask those challenging questions of all our public bodies around efficiency, because I ask the questions of all my arm's-length bodies that are accountable to my Department. Please continue to ask those questions. <BR /> <BR />The Education Authority and the Department will progress recommendations that came out from the landscape review. As part of that, I expect that there will be opportunities to identify further efficiency savings and reduce duplication across the services that the EA provides.”
“I ask Members to support me when I make those decisions, because they are yielding results.”