Paul Givan
Lagan Valley · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“The EA's enhanced support model has been out for consultation. The Member's party is the largest political grouping on the Education Authority, so his party supported the model's being consulted on.”
“Protections around strike action and action short of strike are firmly established in statute for all workers, including teachers. If the Member is referring to the Education Inspections Bill, let me be clear: nothing in that legislation removes or undermines that right.”
“The issue was covered at length at the Education Committee. The position is still not where it ought to be. When I came into office, the position that I inherited was much worse than it is today.”
“It is an area that I have had to navigate, as have many previous Education Ministers. Industrial relations is an area that needs ongoing work. I have outlined how we can address it, but I come back to saying that, when workload was undefined, trade unions struggled to specify the challenge.”
“That is not a fair characterisation. In fact, I was with Justin McCamphill, the leader of NASUWT, at the launch of the curriculum reform, at which he commended me for it and said that he thought that it was good. I have sat in many a meeting with trade union representatives during which they have said, "This is a good initiative.”
“That is exactly why there is a 16-week consultation period, rather than the normal 12 weeks or the minimum eight weeks; to allow the public and teaching profession to very much engage in that curriculum, which I commend to all Members.”
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“I agree with the words of the late Lord Justice Kerr when he said that the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities is based on the premise that:”
“The Bill makes one simple amendment to that regulation. It removes the condition of severe fetal impairment as grounds for termination of a baby up to term. That is a baby with Down's syndrome, a cleft palate or a club foot. The Bill seeks to protect those babies. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is not as some Members have portrayed it. It is not about playing fast and loose with human rights. On the contrary, human rights and the rights of people with disabilities stand at the heart of it. The Bill is short, but it achieves something very significant for people like Heidi. It tells Heidi and other people with conditions like Down's syndrome that they matter and that we place a high value on their lives. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is about protecting the human rights of those with disabilities.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to be very clear that the Bill is not my Bill; it is not Christopher's Bill, it is not a DUP Bill; and it is not a Bill of other parties' MLAs who support it. The Bill seeks to enact legislation that people with disabilities have told the Assembly they want to see enacted. It is a Bill about their human rights. The Bill gives us an opportunity to say to them that we in this House place a high value on their lives. <BR /> <BR />This is not an exhaustive or complex Bill. It has only one substantive clause. That clause makes a very simple amendment to the Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020. Regulation 7 of the 2020 regulations allows for abortion up to term in two instances: first, for what has become known as fatal fetal abnormality; and, secondly, for severe fetal impairment.”
“Following the resounding support that Heidi received in the Chamber, I was moved to introduce the Bill, along with other MLAs who are in the Chamber today. Again, I put on record my thanks to Robbie Butler from the Ulster Unionist Party, Dolores Kelly from the SDLP and Trevor Lunn, who is here in the Chamber. They have supported the Bill from the start. Politicians, though, did not do this alone. In addition to Heidi's support, I am indebted to that from Lynn Murray from the advocacy charity Don't Screen Us Out. It was her help and advice that led to the Bill that is before us again today. I also thank my party colleague Christopher Stalford, who took my place as the primary Bill sponsor in June and steered the Bill through Committee Stage.”
“Just one month after Heidi spoke to Assembly Members, we had the opportunity to debate the issues that she had raised with us. Let me remind the House of the motion that was passed that day when we agreed these words:”
“I speak about the Bill from the Back Benches in my capacity as an MLA rather than as First Minister. First, I thank the Chairman and members of the Health Committee for their work. Getting through the detail of over 9,000 responses is not easy. Having been Chair of a Committee, I know the kind of commitment that that requires, so I thank the Health Committee for that. Much in the Committee report is beyond the scope of the Bill that Members have referred to. The Bill is about a very specific, narrow issue. <BR /> <BR />Earlier this year, it was my privilege to introduce the Bill to the Assembly. I, like others, listened to the words of Heidi Crowter when I met her back in May 2020, along with many other Members, and her words inspired me into action.”
“I am very keen to hear from the Minister about what plans the Department has to help to alleviate the traffic congestion problems that Moira faces.”
“The lengthy queues impact on residents' amenity and ability to enjoy the community; on businesses; and on those trying to commute on to neighbouring towns in the Lurgan direction. We need to see progress being made. A bypass is the obvious solution. However, I recognise the financial implications of such a proposal. In the absence of that, are there other steps that can be taken to approve the A3? I say that in the wider context that Moira has a strategic location, with Moira roundabout towards Nutts Corner. I think of the Knockmore/Sprucefield link road that is going to be developed and the Sprucefield bypass that is planned. If there is going to be that development with Sprucefield and the Knockmore link, Moira is the missing part of the jigsaw in what we are doing to improve general connectivity in that area.”
“Moira is a popular place to live and understandably so, given the beauty of the locality, the demesne and the fact that the train station is not that far away. Of course, the Department wants to expand that, but that will generate further traffic, with people wanting to avail themselves of the development of Moira train station. We need to look at what infrastructure improvements can be provided in Moira village. <BR /> <BR />I know that the Belfast metropolitan transport plan (BMTP) says that account should be taken of the growth in those areas and that must include improvements to the infrastructure. My question to the Infrastructure Minister is this: what plans does her Department have to deal with the traffic congestion that we see in Moira?”
“The north feeder road, which was tied into property-led developments, is one example of where conditions associated with the planning for housing led to the private sector funding that road. I am not sure that there is an opportunity to do that in Moira. Significant housing developments have undoubtedly taken place in the village and in neighbouring villages in the constituency.”
“Those 10,000 car journeys through Moira are being made by people who want to get to their property in the village, as well as by those commuting onward to the neighbouring towns of Magheralin, Dollingstown, Waringstown and, indeed, Lurgan. From speaking to the Member for Parliament for Upper Bann, Carla Lockhart, I know that she has campaigned on the issues as well. I know that my Upper Bann colleagues, Mr Buckley and Mrs Dodds, very much want me to echo on their behalf that they, too, would like to see the issue resolved. <BR /> <BR />How you do that is challenging. There have been calls for a bypass for Moira for many years, as there have been for other parts of Northern Ireland and, indeed, in our constituency.”
“I thank my good friend and constituency colleague Robbie Butler for securing the Adjournment debate. It is always good to get an opportunity to speak from the Back Benches again. He and I, as well as those from across the constituency, agree on the congestion in Moira. Those familiar with that part of the world will know that, at peak periods, it is difficult to get through Moira, although that peak level, at times, extends almost throughout the entire day. <BR /> <BR />We have information on the impact of vehicle movements. There are on average over 10,000 vehicles per day moving through Moira. On some occasions, on a Friday in particular, it will go over 11,000 per day. That is taken from the Department for Infrastructure's traffic count data as of a year ago.”
“That is one issue. <BR /> <BR />The Queen's Canopy is another issue that relates to our ability to get the trees into Northern Ireland. Beyond that, the points are well made about the diversion of trade as a result of the protocol and the wider societal impact that it has. For all those reasons, we need to see a resolution in the process between the UK Government and the European Union.”
“The Member raises an important point. Whilst having kosher meat is not a priority for a huge majority of the population, for an important part of the community — the Jewish community — it is. I have raised that issue with UK Secretaries of State. Disturbingly, when they have raised it with Europe as being a result of the protocol, they have been alarmed at the response that they have had, and, at times, the dismissive nature and lack of understanding of the impact that it is having on the Jewish community. I know from the Member's representation and from speaking to the Rabbi in Belfast, that the issue is having real impact on the very small Jewish community because of its absolute importance to them and their beliefs.”
“That is why the Executive agreed to a more flexible approach, on a case-by-case basis, when it comes to procurement so that projects were not lost due to cost inflation. Departments are working with contractors to ensure that they can continue to deliver those projects.”
“It is causing problems for many businesses' supply chains for goods or, as in this case, materials. Contractors are having issues with trying to source materials. That is not unique to Northern Ireland. I have no doubt that the protocol has had implications for accessing goods. However, there is a worldwide demand on goods, particularly timber, because of infrastructure projects that are being taken forward on a huge scale in places such as the United States. Those are buying up the available materials and pushing up prices right across the globe. <BR /> <BR />The Member is right to highlight the difficulties that contractors are having in getting materials, which are contributing to delays in build programmes and increasing costs.”
“I hope that we will be in a position soon to put it out to public consultation to get people's views before we agree the final settlement.”
“We all know the pressures that the health service is under. It is the number-one priority for me and my party. That view is shared across the Executive. The funding allocations that would be made — indeed, that are proposed — for the next three years give that priority to Health. We all agree that things like tackling the waiting lists for elective-care procedures need to be taken forward. We also need the transformation of the health service to take place so that we do not just treat the symptoms of a system that is unable to cope. In addition to addressing the waiting-list backlog, there needs to be financial support to deliver that transformation of the health service. That will be reflected when the Budget is published for consultation. Ministers will discuss it again at the Executive on Thursday.”
“The Member is right about the importance of having a multi-year Budget to facilitate more strategic planning rather than living year-to-year. As a result of the comprehensive spending review (CSR) that the Chancellor announced, we now know the allocation that Northern Ireland will receive in each of the next three years. Yes, it is an increase in our Budget. Not everything is being funded that we want to be able to do, however. That, then, requires the Executive to really look at our priorities. I assure the Member that work has been carried out to assess that three-year allocation of both recurrent and capital funding. There is an ongoing process across Departments to take that forward.”
“I absolutely support workers' rights, particularly in education. Teachers, or, in this case, welfare support officers and university or further education college lecturers, carry out hugely important work. They are highly respected and regarded in society, and it is vital that they be appropriately remunerated for the work that they carry out. I therefore hope that there can be a resolution to the issues that the Member has raised in the Assembly, because it is important that those in our teaching community are able to get on with delivering the job that they want to do.”
“I missed the last part of that question, but, as a general school of thought, I always believe that it is best to get agreed negotiated outcomes rather than to resort to industrial action. Industrial action should always be an absolute last resort for any sector to take. I hope that we are able to get an agreed way forward on the particular issue that the Member has raised.”
“That is a piece of work that the permanent secretary in the Executive Office is taking forward. He is engaging with the other Departments so that we can assess what such a commission would look like. Work is taking place to ensure that there is no duplication in having an infrastructure commission. It is therefore an active piece of work that is the Executive Office is taking forward.”
“The Member raises an important point. The Minister for Infrastructure corresponded with the Executive Office on the outworkings of that judgement. It is important that there can be agreement on the ministerial code in order to clarify the issue, particularly for the Minister for Infrastructure. I have cleared a submission in the Executive Office for that to be taken forward, and we are awaiting final sign-off in the Executive for that, but I would like to be able to bring that submission to the Executive as soon as possible.”
“Those in the pro-passport party coalition need to answer that question. Why pursue a divisive, distractive policy that is not based on the evidence of hospitalisations and the pressures in our health service? I continue to appeal to people: take personal responsibility and increase your efforts to get your booster jab, because that is having a real, tangible benefit. Other Members have an opportunity to reflect on the position that they have taken. I hope that they do that and that the regulations are not brought forward, but, if they are, I hope that the Assembly will vote them down.”
“We need to continue to monitor that, but, based on the evidence, the question that needs to be asked is this: why are we pursuing a mandatory scheme when we have had those reductions in our hospitals' rate of intensive care and general bed occupancy and of cases in our nursing homes?”
“At one point during the current wave, we had a peak of 527 inpatients; today, the number is 340. <BR /> <BR />I commend those who are making efforts and taking up the booster jab, because we are now seeing the differences in our hospitals. We are seeing them even in our care homes: in September, there were 135 outbreaks; that is now down to 32. The evidence shows that the measures that are being taken through the roll-out of the booster campaign — we need to see it accelerated and more taken up — are having a real impact on the pressures in our health service. <BR /> <BR />That is why I go back to the question. The introduction of mandatory COVID passports was based on the pressures in our health service, but those pressures, today, are less than they were even a week ago.”
“The Member rightly raises the issue, which we all know about, of the pressures facing our health service. Indeed, it was because of that issue that the Health Minister brought forward and other parties supported the proposition for COVID passports. <BR /> <BR />Nobody should be complacent. We should all make every possible effort. When I look at the current levels of hospitalisation, however, I think that people can have hope. We need to give people hope rather than constant anxiety and fear. As of today, 318 beds are occupied by people who have COVID; that is a significant reduction from where we were even a week ago. We have 28 people in intensive care; at the end of the late summer, that figure was 49. We have had a reduction in the number of people in ICU and of occupied beds.”
“The Ad Hoc Committee has been taking forward that work. I look forward to seeing the completed report from the Committee. That will help to shape the next steps.”
“It is for the Assembly's Ad Hoc Committee to decide whether it wishes to continue to do its work. It should not be predicated on that issue. The Ad Hoc Committee is at liberty to get its own expert advice, which, I believe, it has done, on its approach to tackling that legislation.”
“Northern Ireland put its best foot forward at COP26. Attendees included organisations such as the Armagh Observatory and Planetarium; the Northern Ireland Environment Link; Keep Northern Ireland Beautiful; Artemis Technologies from my constituency; Wrightbus; the Ulster Farmers' Union; the Northern Ireland Environment Agency; and public representatives included the Northern Ireland Local Government Association (NILGA) and Danske Bank. All those organisations and more represented Northern Ireland in a positive light. They showed the kinds of strategies that we are taking forward, that we recognise the seriousness of the issue and that we are making real, tangible differences to tackling our contribution towards climate change.”
“<BR /> <BR />COP26 recognised that there is a lot of work to be done, but we are committed to our strategies and plans for the way forward.”
“There are implications for Northern Ireland and the Executive. COP26 agreed plans to reduce the use of coal and fossil fuels globally, which will help to keep within reach the challenging target to limit global warming to 1·5°C. There is now a plan for moving forward, and every country must produce its own plans by the end of next year. <BR /> <BR />The implications for us are that we must play our part in contributing to those targets by making the necessary changes to what we do and by fully implementing our green growth, energy, environment and cleaner transport strategies. We will also look to share and learn from best practice on the challenges of climate change, and we will discuss that with some of our other overseas partners in the coming weeks.”
“I agree with the Member about the need for consistency and a collective approach, but six other Ministers decided to pursue not a collective approach but a policy that was not based on evidence. The Members opposite raise their eyebrows. Their party is one of civil rights, yet no equality impact assessment was carried out and no human rights or legal opinion was provided to the Executive before the decision was taken. There will be much more buy-in from the public on decisions that were based upon evidence. There is no evidence on the effectiveness of mandatory COVID vaccine passports in reducing transmission. The public expect us to take evidence-based decisions, and doing so will gain collective and consensual approaches.”
“I will vote against them, which is consistent with what I did in the Executive, but I appeal to other colleagues to reflect on their positions and to vote against the regulations when they come before the Assembly.”
“Again, I am seeking clarity on that because the Department of Health said that the regulations would be published on Friday of last week, then it was going to be Monday and now they are in draft form. It appears that the regulations have not been made in law yet; therefore, I am not clear on whether the clock started ticking today on the grace period that should come two weeks later. The Assembly should vote on the regulations, and I understand that that should happen next week. <BR /> <BR />I appeal to the other parties to reflect on the decisions that they have taken. There are opportunities not to proceed, and the Minister of Health, as my Economy Minister advocated, should not proceed on the issue. Other colleagues will have an opportunity to vote on the regulations.”
“No phased introduction was voted for by the majority of Executive members. The scheme was to cover hospitality in all its forms where food and drink was being served. The Department of Health's characterisation of that as a phased introduction is not reflective of what the majority of the Executive voted for. It is important that, when people speak about this, they give the accurate position that the Executive voted upon. I understand the argument being made by Minister Swann that, because of the rushed nature of the policy, his Department has not been able to bottom out the regulations for unlicensed coffee shops and hospitality. <BR /> <BR />I want the Assembly to vote on the regulations before the measures commence.”
“<BR /> <BR />That was the wrong approach, but I re-emphasise all the other points: get your vaccination; take up the booster jab; and practice personal responsibility. Those will be the most effective measures, rather than a divisive and distractive policy that political parties put through because of a political agenda instead of an evidence-based approach.”
“It is a very different proposition when a Government move from voluntary approaches to mandating it, including, for example, for coffee shops that have 15 people as their maximum capacity, compared with a stadium that could take over 20,000. They will be subjected to the same level of financial penalty as large-scale organisers. That is disproportionate, but, even more worryingly, it is not evidence-based. No equality impact assessment was carried out. No legal advice was provided to the Executive about human rights. There was no assessment of the effectiveness or otherwise of reducing transmission. However, that was the decision on which a majority of the parties proceeded.”
“There have been occasions. There was a dinner for the Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry in the Waterfront Hall, where, upon entry, I was asked for my COVID certification, which I happily provided. That was a straightforward process for a dinner at which there were, I think, around 600 people. Measures had been put in place; we were well distanced in a well-ventilated room. That is what we, as an Executive, have been saying. I said last week that I want places to be able to stay open and operate safely. People should take personal responsibility. When they are moving about, they should, where it is required by regulations, wear a face covering. <BR /> <BR />There are examples that I can cite that have worked well, where measures have been put in place voluntarily.”
“Instead of there being a thought-out, orderly plan to make COVID certification happen, there was a last-minute scramble from the parties in government. They have produced legislation to be rushed through this week that is discriminatory and ill-thought-out, and which many will regard as unenforceable. Those are not my words; they are the words of Mary Lou McDonald.”
“It is important that the Executive do the right things and focus their energy and efforts on the measures that will have real, tangible benefits. That is why I continue to encourage people who have not been vaccinated to take up the vaccine and those who have not received their booster jab to take it. We, collectively, re-emphasised the important messaging about personal responsibility and actions that we can all take. However, the issue of mandatory COVID certification processes was a politically driven decision. It was not evidence-based. That is what has brought the Executive in to controversy. I warned at the time that, rather than engaging in divisive and distracting policies, we should focus on the measures that will see real benefits.”
“It was on Friday that the Minister of Health provided a paper to Executive colleagues on the issues around non-licensed hospitality and the inability to get regulations drafted so that they would be enforceable. That led to the subsequent public announcements from the Minister of Health about those forms of hospitality not being included in the decisions that had been taken by a majority of the members of the Executive in respect of COVID certification.”
“The Executive met on 17 November and discussed the issue of COVID status certification. At that meeting, agreement in principle was reached for the introduction of certification to begin on 29 November, with an initial two-week grace period, followed by enforcement beginning on 12 December. The primary focus of COVID status certification is on indoor and outdoor events, nightclubs, licensed hospitality and other premises that permit the consumption of intoxicating liquor, including cinemas, theatres and conference centres. The Minister of Health brought an additional paper to the Executive on 22 November to discuss other contingency measures in the autumn/winter plan and how those could be deployed in tandem with certification.”
“The Member is right that those two issues have had some overlap. We believe that progress has been made towards decoupling that to allow the work to go forward. An apology project group has been set up. It includes officials, survivors of institutional child abuse and the Victims and Survivors Service (VSS). A proper group is taking it forward. That group is discussing the practical arrangements and has been focused on ensuring that those victims and survivors are supported before, during and after the apology process.”
“This is an important piece of work that we have had the independent facilitator, Paul Sweeney, take forward. Paul Sweeney is a former permanent secretary, but he is absolutely independent and has expertise on this issue. He has met the six institutions. We anticipate an official report from Paul Sweeney in due course, which will provide us with feedback from the institutions. Victims and survivors have said that having financial contributions come from the institutions is very important as part of that acknowledgement. We hope to receive a report from Paul Sweeney about that engagement shortly.”
“The budget for the commissioner's office for this financial year is just short of £800,000. It is supported from within the Executive Office, which helps to support staffing arrangements and the governance and infrastructure that is required in her office. If there are issues of resources being required that have not been brought to our attention, we obviously want to know, but we are advised that the required support is being provided to the commissioner, Fiona Ryan, to enable her to do her job.”
“The commissioner has a very important role and engages with groups and victims on this issue. The commissioner has an important role on our Executive Office team. We will re-emphasise the point that the Member made about the importance of her role in this process.”
“Junior Ministers Middleton and Kearney also recently met victims and survivors' groups, and there was a commitment that there would be continued and regular engagement at both ministerial and official level as work progresses in preparation for the apology being made. There is absolutely no issue with our commitment to ensuring that victims and survivors are very much at the centre of this process.”
“There has been engagement at official level and at ministerial level on this, and engagements were held in September and October. Work was also done with the commissioner.”
“The Member makes a point that victims and survivors have made repeatedly to us: the official apology is very important and they ought to be at the very centre of that apology. We want to see that delivered, and delivered in a timely way, but we need to make sure that the victims and survivors feel ownership of that process. I know that, with the review of the redress board, there had been some issues about proceeding with an apology. We are in a better place to address those concerns, which should allow us to move forward when it comes to making this official apology. It is important that we get the detail of that right and that we get the moment right when that is delivered.”