Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“Does the First Minister recognise that the institutions are mutually exclusive, as per the principles of the Good Friday Agreement, and that, therefore, continuing to sit on the Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly somewhat undermines what his party is doing at the North/South Ministerial Council?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way again. Does he acknowledge that, under the current definition of harassment, the focus is on what the victim feels as a result of the harassment? His point is about the protester. However, if we put this into the context of a potential harassment offence, does the Member recognise that that harassment is about the victim? The Member talked about distress: does he acknowledge the distress caused to the victim? This is not necessarily about what is defined in the Bill; it is about what is currently defined in law. The Member is trying to make a point about what the protester might do, but does he recognise that their actions may be an offence?”
“I thank Mr Allister for giving way. I just want to extend Ms Kimmins's point about harassment. The Member will be aware that current harassment law very much focuses on the person who is being harassed rather than the person who maybe thinks or does not think that they are doing the harassment. What does the Member say about that? Should people who are protesting have self-awareness around the potential that they are harassing, particularly if it is a repeated offence?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. Will he acknowledge that some images that are often shared at those protests might compound that trauma in Baby Loss Awareness Week? I have been contacted by constituents who have suffered miscarriages and are not happy about those images. Will the Member acknowledge that?”
“Does the Minister recognise that the current planning policy is limited, or perhaps misinterpreted, in its ability to enable affordable housing schemes? I am not aware of any recent affordable housing schemes, in rural areas particularly.”
“Communicate healthy relationships, control and accountability. Be good role models. That is where we start.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is not all men, but, when women, girls and, indeed, other men are attacked, beaten, raped or murdered, the perpetrator is most likely to be a man. We can no longer ignore that fact. I call on men to help us to eradicate violence against women and girls. Women know and feel what danger looks like. We are used to it, so stop trying to advise us. Women know how to equip themselves. We are already stocked up, so do not sell us products. Women know when to walk away or cross the street — we do it regularly — so do not protect us. You can stop the abuse, stop the violence and stop the toxic culture that diminishes, sexualises and violates women and girls. Do not beat her; do not rape her; do not murder her. Raise boys to be men who respect and cherish women and girls.”
“How is it that women are subjected to sexist comments in public and private organisations without the expectation of redress? How is it that women experience the worst of society but do not feel supported to speak out? <BR /> <BR />We need to ensure that perpetrators in trusted positions who abuse their position are sentenced to reflect that abuse. If necessary, we should legislate to make such abuse an aggregating factor. It is appropriate that we protect those serving on the front line to show that we trust them and are thankful for the job that they do, but with trust comes responsibility. For the few who abuse the trust, we must proportionately hold them to account, not just for the victim but for the confidence of wider society.”
“I, too, want to talk about Sarah, a woman who was just walking home, yet she was abducted, raped and murdered by a man in a trusted position for his selfish and depraved gratification. I offer my heartfelt condolences to the parents, family and friends of Sarah Everard and extend those condolences to the victims and to the families of every woman and girl who has been abused, assaulted, raped or murdered. Our condolences and anger are no longer enough. At this point, words are in vain. We need action from government, society and each of us as individuals. <BR /> <BR />We need to tackle misogyny, and we do that by making it a hate crime. It is not enough to expect people to edit their behaviour; it is not happening. We need to make it law. How is it that we live in a society where being a woman can be used against us?”
“I really want to be fully thoughtful about and considerate of the Bill. It is about how this will play out for the people of Northern Ireland long after every one of has vacated these Benches for whatever reason. What are we doing to help the people of Northern Ireland? Maybe this is the small piece of legislation that will get others thinking about our structures and what needs to happen. A piece of that has not happened up to now, and that may be why we find ourselves in this position.”
“A lot of people have talked about rehabilitation. I am a great believer in rehabilitation on the basis that, if it works, it makes society much safer. True rehabilitation takes in an aspect of contrition and remorse — even restorative justice, if we can it that — where people recognise that they have hurt others and are prepared to help them move forward and heal. Maybe the Bill has an element of that. It is a really interesting part of Mr Allister's Bill. He is willing to say, "You can sit on these boards if you recognise that what you did caused hurt and created victims". If we are to move forward, perhaps that is the piece of the puzzle that we need to look at. <BR /> <BR />It always disappoints me in the Chamber when we hear debate back and forth about all of this.”
“We are mandated. I have talked about that, and I respect that, but, with appointments, we have to be a bit more respectful about that particular power. Let us take responsibility for that power. If we cannot, maybe we need legislation like this Bill.”
“If there is not enough self-awareness amongst the leaders in Northern Ireland to recognise that, maybe we will have to put structures in place. <BR /> <BR />I come back to what is in Mr Allister's Bill. It does not particularly bother me that it is Mr Allister who tabled it, and it does not particularly bother me who it is aimed at because, at the end of the day, it will be how we move this forward and what it will mean practically when it becomes law. I ask Members to reflect on whether we are comfortable with individuals who have had serious criminal convictions that carry a sentence of a minimum of five years potentially finding their way onto some of the most significant public bodies in Northern Ireland because they could be politically appointed. <BR /> <BR />There is an important point around mandate and appointment.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also do not diminish the role that some individuals who are potentially being targeted here played in that transition and that move towards peace in Northern Ireland. I think that is really important, and I will stand here and recognise that. However, let us go back to the victims. They are the ones who are hurting. I do not like what the British Government are doing about convictions that relate to the Troubles because, again, that does not satisfy victims. By the same token, I go back to the humanity here. I go back and recognise that there is loss. It is super difficult if you are a victim or the family of a victim and you see certain people in public roles who have created your pain.”
“I acknowledge that some political parties in this Chamber have taken great strides over the years to move on from their past, and a lot of Members of various parties do not have a past and were not directly related to the conflict. That is truly when we begin to heal. We begin to heal when those who were directly related to the conflict are perhaps no longer on this stage, and the people after them — the stage that they provided for them — will start moving this country on. I am not necessarily looking at this as a limitation of reconciliation. I am looking at it as an opportunity. Some 23 years on, the piece of the puzzle that is missing in the Good Friday Agreement — reconciliation. Maybe we can start looking at our systems and structures and recognise that, yes, there was a transition period. I get that.”
“I will not be specific in saying that it comes from one community, because I do not agree with that. I think that everybody is hurting in Northern Ireland. It comes back to my original point, which is that, ultimately, we have not got to a period of reconciliation that truly addresses our past. Maybe 23 years on, in a relative state of peace, we can address the parts of the Good Friday Agreement that perhaps were difficult for people and why people are not fully appreciative of those and where we are now. That is really important. The true piece of reconciliation is to see what we need to do next. <BR /> <BR />In response to some comments about certain parties being on the Policing Board, this is not about political parties.”
“It related to a young man who was convicted of a sexual assault. It was described in law as being minor. He himself described it as horseplay, but what was really important to me, and I put it back to the individual, was, "That may have been minor for you and is now having implications for your future, but let us think about the victim. Let us think about the impact this has had on her. She felt hurt, she felt violated, she felt harassed". It was enough. In comparison with some of the serious convictions that are being proposed in this Bill, that does not compare. It is not proportionate. Others have talked about that too. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that everybody will be thinking of particular individuals when they talk about victims, but sometimes in this Chamber we forget who the victims are.”
“I hope that others in the Chamber would have a similar difficulty but, currently, the arrangements would allow that. So, whilst there is a lot of focus on terrorist-related activities, there are other convictions that we should have difficulty with in this context. That is the element of the Bill that is making me lean towards supporting it, because it does not sit right with me that those individuals could potentially find their way onto boards making important decisions on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />As others have said, if that was any other type of role or job, they would have to go through Access NI and Disclosure and Barring Service checks with other parts of the United Kingdom. I will give you an example. I worked on a case in my constituency office a number of years ago.”
“If it became law — and it looks unlikely that it will — Mr Allister, the individual victims, or even the people whom this is perhaps directed at, will not appear on the statute. It is about what is governed for, how we move forward and what we do in order to achieve that. <BR /> <BR />Some have alluded to this piece in small part, but it is the part that really sits uncomfortably with me. I ask other Members to consider it, and maybe the Bill sponsor will help me out. The words "serious criminal convictions", I assume, include the likes of rape, a conviction for which might carry more than five years' imprisonment. I would have a significant difficulty if a party within the institutions put forward someone who has a conviction of rape to sit on the Education Authority.”
“It talks to the nature of the people whom we put on very significant boards in Northern Ireland, and discusses the decisions that they make on behalf of me, the people I represent and everybody who is represented in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to say that I have good working relationships with every Member of the House, or at least I think that I do. For me, the individual who sits on these blue Benches does not represent themselves but the mandate that was given to them by people. If we disrespect that mandate, essentially, we disrespect the people of Northern Ireland. That is a key point. <BR /> <BR />As for the Bill, I can only make decisions on what is written on the pages.”
“<BR /> <BR />As we move forward, 23 years later, some of those people rightly ask, not least because of the instability of these institutions and the conversations that we are still having, sadly, in 2021, what those sacrifices were for and whether they were correct to make them. I am reflecting on the Good Friday Agreement and Mr O'Toole's comment about how it is not up to us, through small pieces of legislation, to try to rectify the moral judgements around it. Perhaps, 23 years later, it is up to us. Perhaps, we now have to start looking at the structures and whether they are conducive to the future that we, in the Chamber, all want. <BR /> <BR />I do not wish to personalise the Bill, as many Members have done. The Bill does not mention specific individuals or convictions.”
“I begin by coming back to some of the thoughtful comments that Mr O'Toole made in relation to moral judgements around the Good Friday Agreement. It was suggested to me recently that, perhaps, one of the gaps in the Good Friday Agreement was that a transition period for what had to happen to ensure peace in Northern Ireland was not specified. I was 11 years old when the Good Friday Agreement was signed, but I would have supported it because it secured a better future for Northern Ireland. It did so by stopping the violence. However, let us not underestimate the significant leap that the Good Friday Agreement was for many and some of the sacrifices that they had to accept for a better future for their children and grandchildren.”
“<BR /> <BR />We will be dealing with this issue moving forward because, while the administration and burden has been taken off principals — that seems to be the focus of a lot of the concerns this week — we need to look at the issue in the wider context of what it means for parents and children and at how we learn to live with COVID-19 in the community. Nearly a year ago now, I heard the previous First Minister say that we need to move towards a process by which we look at this. I ask the Executive to do that. I do not underestimate the challenges.”
“How are we supporting working parents when they have to take their kid to get a test, perhaps several hours away from their place of work or even from their home because they cannot get one locally because the system is overwhelmed? Will employers be sympathetic to that? A year on, I think that the answer is no. We really need to get a grip on what we even mean by a close contact. I appreciate what a close contact might be for adults in an office environment, for example, but is it really the case that a close contact has to be in a classroom situation? Indeed, I ask the Minister of Health and the wider Northern Ireland Executive to reconsider these definitions.”
“On day eight, they could be told that they have a positive test, which means that everyone else in that classroom will then have to take a day off school and take a test the following day. We are perpetuating a cycle in which kids are being tested regularly, and I do not think that that is good for their well-being, particularly if we consider the risk around COVID-19 for young people in particular. I will not claim to be an expert on the effects of that, but we need to consider whether our approach is disproportionate to the risk that we are now facing in schools. <BR /> <BR />I want to make a point about parents. We are no longer in a lockdown situation. Parents do not have the flexibility to take time off work. That is why it is an Economy issue.”
“What are we doing to children that means that, because of current policy on contact tracing and testing, we are subjecting them to that type of testing potentially once a week? That is in cases where they can even get a PCR test. A parent who talked to me this morning said that she tried to book a test but that, because the PCR centres are so overwhelmed, she was unable to get it. She had to travel to Magherafelt to get a test that, as in most cases, was going to be negative. <BR /> <BR />I agree with Mr McCrossan on the situation around day two and day eight testing. There could be a negative test on day two, and those kids could be sent back in to school where they could infect others because they had not presented a positive test.”
“That is certainly something that we need to reflect on. <BR /> <BR />I agree with other Members that this, essentially, is a communications issue. Schools are fully aware of the issues relating to their pupils, and they are willing to do what they can to try to support them, but they need support from the Government. I implore the Executive to look at their communications. It is not enough to say now, a year in, that this is unprecedented. They have had a year to try to improve. It is something that we genuinely need to get a grip on. <BR /> <BR />The other concern that I hear from parents, and Members who spoke before me mentioned this as well, is that the experience at the PCR testing centres is "horrific". Very young children are being subjected to an invasive test, where they are screaming.”
“However, you still have a mandate until probably March 2022, and you need to take responsibility for doing the job that you all agreed to in January 2020. <BR /> <BR />I wish to represent the views of those who shared comments about what has been happening since the resumption of school in the past number of weeks. I will start with schools. I appreciate the change in relation to the PHA, but the previous policy placed a significant burden on principals and school leaders. I will quote directly from schools that contacted me earlier this week. They said that the support offered to schools was "wholly inadequate". That is damning, and, sadly, it is a familiar criticism. It seems to be the criticism that we have heard throughout the past year, with schools saying that the support just was not present.”
“Good afternoon, Members. I declare an interest as a governor of a primary school in my constituency. <BR /> <BR />I dismiss the comments of those Members who suggested that the issue has been dealt with. It has not, and I will outline the reasons why that is the case. This is a cross-departmental issue, and it requires the five parties to recognise that they are, indeed, one Executive. It is an issue for Education, Health, Economy and perhaps other Departments. I agree with Mr Allister that it is disappointing to see the parties of the Government at odds with one another in the debate. Those of you in those parties should be working together. I appreciate that it is the silly season, with an election pending.”
“That trauma is passing from generation to generation, because it has not been addressed. The proposals do not address it. They attempt to draw a line and ask victims to move on. Victims will never move on. They can accept, but they need answers to do that. It is not enough to provide "space for truth", as proposed by the Secretary of State. Of course people want answers, but justice must follow. Otherwise, what is the purpose of truth, other than to further torture victims by denying them the fundamental right of justice?”
“I recognised that the process involved people, and I sought to meet victims and their families. I met families from Enniskillen, Ballymurphy, Kingsmill and Omagh. I felt that it was important to listen and to recognise them as the mothers, fathers, sons and daughters of those whom they had lost. Of course, I expected the families to be aware of the circumstances that led to those meetings. What I recall from each family in that room in Castle Buildings, however, was the look in their eyes: deep-set trauma and searching for answers. Younger members of the families attending those meetings, who had no direct experience or even recollection of the atrocities or might not even have been born when they happened, had the same look in their eyes. <BR /> <BR />No, time will not be a healer.”
“It is certainly not the service that he joined; indeed, he would not have joined if it had been. A core tenet of any armed force is to uphold the law; at least, that is what most believed. <BR /> <BR />It is shameful that the current Conservative Government want to retrospectively stain good, decent servicemen and servicewomen by saying that those among them who broke the law are equal to them through a statute of limitations and that they are equal to terrorists who sought to create victims through violence dressed up as a cause. Yesterday, I asked my father whether he would support the proposals: he said to me, "Speaking as a former soldier, if you break the law, you must face the consequences". <BR /> <BR />As Minister of Justice, I was keen to harness humanity in the system.”
“My father does not represent every British soldier, every prison officer or any other service in Northern Ireland during that period, but I expect that he represents most of them. They are proud people who believe that they were protecting others. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge that some crossed the line and stepped out of sight of their role. Their motivation is a separate conversation. What is important today is the difference between doing their job and committing a crime. If crime was committed, those individuals should be held to account in law for their actions as they would be in any other environment or circumstance. Not doing so undermines people like my father, because it suggests that criminal behaviour is acceptable in the armed forces. That is not the service.”
“Northern Ireland's society is broken. It remains broken because many have not had access to justice, and the proposals remove any hope of that. I support the motion, if only to defend and uphold the integrity of justice. <BR /> <BR />My father came to Northern Ireland in the 1970s. He was a member of the British Army. He was also a son and a brother. He was a young soldier from north Yorkshire, tasked to protect all in Northern Ireland at a time of severe conflict when many people were losing their lives. It was the same when he was a prison officer. His job was to protect the people in his care: not to pass judgement, undermine or interfere but to do a job that, he felt, was to look after others. I ask him about it regularly, and he gives me the same answer: he was there to protect others.”
“Albeit in a different context but one that is no less relevant, Willy Bach, Chair of the Bach commission, in 2017, said:”
“Thank you, Minister. That is really great work. I thank the Minister for his attention to that matter. I have written to him on a number of occasions, and that information will be gratefully received today by all those who need that vaccine passport, if you like. <BR /> <BR />Today, I read that the second vaccination dose is available at the COVID mobile test units. Will that have any implications for information-sharing for the vaccine passport, so that people can get that documentation?”
“They do not want direct rule from Westminster, because, if its outcomes were to happen, the same people who advocate that would disagree with it as well. We all have a mandate to work for the people of Northern Ireland. Everybody in a position of responsibility needs to realise that and get down to doing it. Next year will be very difficult, not for any one of us but for everyone out there.”
“It feels as though every political party was speaking to voters rather than doing the job that it has the responsibility to fulfil. I would call for an election at this point, if it were not for legislation that is in passage — the only opportunity to actually do our jobs — and if we were not coming to the end of a pandemic. There are priorities: health waiting lists; policing; reform of these institutions, which is key to avoiding that type of behaviour in the future; welfare mitigation; soft opt-in of organ donation; the Justice Bill that is coming through; Brexit; and education. <BR /> <BR />If it means that we can draw a line, parties need to figure out what they want to do next, because the people of Northern Ireland are tired. They want to see this place work.”
“We have five competing parties in government, five parties that will be competing for votes in an election that is less than a year away; a two-year mandate; and a de facto Programme for Government in New Decade, New Approach, which was not about people but about politics. This mandate is exhausted. <BR /> <BR />The people of Northern Ireland are tired; they are tired of the charade. On my way to Stormont this morning, I deliberately looked around at the people of Northern Ireland. It was a bright, sunny day, and people were getting on with their lives, perhaps not even paying attention to what is happening in this place. That is an important point to make, because we need to build back confidence in these institutions. <BR /> <BR />What was last week's behaviour about? It feels like drama.”
“I offer my congratulations to Mr Givan as the new First Minister and to Mrs O'Neill on her reappointment as deputy First Minister. That said, this is an exhausted mandate. The biggest mistake in January 2020 was not having an election. The biggest mistake was restoring government three years into a mandate with no opportunity to provide good governance on the ground for the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Did we really not expect the instability that we have seen over the past number of years restored at the end of three shameful years of nothing, which have contributed to our waiting lists?”
“I appreciate all of the contributions from everyone across the House, and, in particular, I appreciate the help of the Committee, the Department and the Minister. Claire McCanny is fantastic: she helped me with only one amendment, but the attention that she gave to me shows that she deserves the praise from other Members. Thank you for your attention this evening.”
“I appreciate that there are concerns, but they need to be looked at in a different context. It should not be a case of whataboutery and "That's not how we move things forward in Northern Ireland". As others have said, this is really positive and progressive legislation. I remarked to a journalist the other day that the first iteration of this came in 2016 and that, despite five years of very little movement, where we are today demonstrates some sort of progression in Northern Ireland. For the little impact that this mandate will have, this legislation will be a good take from it.”
“I have listened to the Member's comments throughout the evening. We are not putting the licensing trade at a disadvantage simply because we are promoting another interest in Northern Ireland. We are trying to ensure that everybody has access to the playing field. We should not be worried about that. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I spoke earlier in the week in the Assembly about food tourism in Northern Ireland. There is a real opportunity with that and taprooms in particular. I have travelled to other parts of the world and attended taprooms. They are absolutely fantastic. Thousands of people on a Saturday afternoon enjoy the local artisan product. I appreciate that that is not the Member's interest, but it is a significant interest for the people of Northern Ireland, never mind the tourists whom we want to attract.”
“When something is considered well, there is a good chance that it will not get consensus because it has given rise to a number of issues, not least from the members of the Committee and the stakeholders who presented to it. That is a sign of a good piece of work. I am sure that there are people who hoped that we would have done more and others who hoped that we would have done less, but there is balance. That word has been used throughout the contributions. That is not to say that we cannot do something in the future. It has taken this long to get to where we are now, but the important thing is that we are here. Future opportunities to amend the legislation even further could come up. It is important that we have given it a good start. <BR /> <BR />I thank every Member —.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am interested in the rationale put forward by Ms Armstrong for the calculation of whether it would be viable. By the same token, in terms of the rating and the other considerations, the Committee's work would be in vain if it does not work for the taprooms that want to take it forward. The most important thing is that we speak to the industry in particular. When we are gone and the Bill receives Royal Assent, it is the industry that will be trying to make it work on the ground. I am keen that others consider that. <BR /> <BR />Many thematic words came through in the debate. It is evident from listening to the various contributions that it really was about consideration, particularly around taprooms.”
“I agree entirely with the Member. I would like to see that being fleshed out, particularly with the Department of Finance. Maybe the Minister will be willing to commit to that. <BR /> <BR />I am also mindful of the grants that went through the rating system during the pandemic. We could find ourselves in another pandemic and taprooms not being eligible for grants because the rating had been done incorrectly. While that may seem like a logistical argument, it is an important one. It seems that the Committee has done extensive work, and I commend it on turning its attention to this. That work cannot be in vain. This needs to serve the people who have put their blood, sweat and tears into bringing that type of event to Northern Ireland.”
“They may not make an issue of it, so it might be worth consulting councils to understand whether that is something that would be implemented or, in most cases —”
“I thank the Member for her examples, and I agree with the sentiment. I appreciate the arguments, and I appreciate the wishes of a father and grandfather. That is certainly his wish. However, we need to look at this in the wider context of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom, Ireland and even the world. We need to move to a place where everywhere else in 2021 provides the service and Northern Ireland needs to come up to date with that. <BR /> <BR />I move on to other notable points. Rachel Woods made some really interesting points, and I wonder whether there is any opportunity for the Minister to consult the Minister for Infrastructure, particularly about planning permission concerns. It is valid when someone makes an issue of it.”
“That is not to say that there are no public health concerns, but they are disproportionate to the fact that we are not doing this now.”
“I do not believe that to be the case. I have spoken to the industry, and it was their suggestion that not every cinema will want to take a licence. I reviewed the cinemas across Northern Ireland, and, for some of them, the product that they offer is not conducive to providing a licence. <BR /> <BR />The expectation has been raised, not least by other regions of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, where this is already being offered. Northern Ireland is the exception to the rule. I appreciate the concerns about the family environment, and, whilst you may not want to be in an environment where there is alcohol, there are people who do, and they want to go to the cinema. It is about providing a balance.”