Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“I suppose what I am saying is that, if we were to be successful in passing any legislation in the House, would it supersede the legislation that will come into effect tomorrow or at midnight tonight?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you confirm that any legislation that this House may pass would indeed be compatible with the Westminster legislation, given that this House is subordinate to the Westminster Chamber?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Further to Mr Allister's point around the opportunity to table private Member's legislation in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, will the Speaker confirm whether, given that the passage through the Assembly requires a Committee Stage, legislation can actually fully pass through this House, given the fact that Committees cannot be established in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive? In saying that, does that mean that any attempts to try to pass legislation in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive will indeed fall and a lot of this exercise is fruitless?”
“When the next Assembly resumes — hopefully, that will be sooner rather than later — I encourage all Members to focus on the issues that matter to people on the ground. This motion has captured the interest of the public because it concerns their safety and the safety of their loved ones. I think that is what we should be putting our focus on today, so it has been my pleasure to respond to the debate.”
“It is vital that Northern Ireland has an effective framework for bail that appropriately balances the needs of defendants, victims and the wider public. I have asked my officials to do all they can to complete this work as soon as possible, as I said, in the coming weeks. Where concerns or areas for improvement are identified, a second phase of work will be taken forward to address them. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I welcome today's debate on the substantive issues raised in the motion, but I also recognise and welcome that the Assembly has been concerned with other matters too. We are concerned about our justice colleagues and the community they serve. That is the vital message we should send out.”
“I do, however, recognise that there is a perception that bail may be more readily available in Northern Ireland than in other jurisdictions in the United Kingdom, which is why I am quite happy to take forward Mr Allister's suggestion on doing a comparative model so that we can be fully informed should this issue be raised in the next Assembly. The panel recommended a review to determine the facts and, if required, bring forward measures to improve the situation. As I said to the Assembly before, that review is under way. It will establish facts about bail decisions in Northern Ireland. It is an important review. I do not want to speculate on or pre-empt its outcome, but I hope we will find a conclusion to it in the coming weeks.”
“That is why it is right that it is for the independent and impartial judiciary to make decisions on the granting of bail.”
“Every application for bail is unique and depends on the relevant factors relating to the individual circumstances of the offence and of the accused.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I am concerned that the longer people are in custody, the more difficult it is to satisfy certain conditions. Indeed, there are issues around remand, which Mr McCann alluded to. Essentially, we need to speed up justice, but we also have to look at how bail conditions are applied. I am quite happy to take up Mr Allister's suggestion of doing a comparative model to see whether there are differences between what is happening in Northern Ireland and what is happening in GB. <BR /> <BR />I have been clear that it is not my role as Justice Minister to comment on the availability or conditions of bail in the specific case that has prompted this debate. These are, essentially, matters for the courts.”
“They include the risk that the accused will fail to appear for trial if they are released on bail; that the accused will interfere with the course of justice while on bail; that they will commit further offences while on bail; that they would be at risk of harm against which they would be inadequately protected if released on bail; or that they pose a risk to the preservation of public order if the accused is released on bail. Mr Allister is entirely right that one of those five conditions has to be satisfied in order to refuse bail — that would be at the time of their first being granted bail or not. The grounds for refusal do not include that the accused has been charged with a serious offence, although, naturally, the seriousness of the offence may be a factor in determining whether one of the five grounds for refusing bail exists.”
“Article 5 requires that a person charged with an offence must be released pending trial unless there are relevant and sufficient reasons to justify continued detention. The starting point for all pretrial remand decisions is the presumption of innocence. This is a fundamental tenet of and protection in the law and it is consistent with the principle of the right to a fair trial. <BR /> <BR />Bail can only be refused if one or more of five broad conditions have been met. I am quite happy to outline these conditions.”
“I wanted to make a deeper connection with the problems faced by citizens through the Programme for Government, and I wanted to start a process whereby outcomes and confidence would be central and valued above processes, practices and structures through my problem-solving justice initiatives, but these are issues, regrettably, for another day. <BR /> <BR />I would also like to say something for the record about the bail regime and it is important to outline how it currently works. It is, indeed, as Mr Allister described it. The operation of the bail framework is underpinned primarily by article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights — the right to liberty and security.”
“<BR /> <BR />In my programme since becoming Justice Minister, I had a focus on people: on women and on young people in the justice system; on the harm and vulnerabilities that we see in the justice system, whether that be offenders, victims, or indeed justice practitioners; on mental health issues; on older people and their fear of crime; and on those who live in our rural communities. This has been my focus, and I had planned to speak in more detail about these issues today. I had started to think about the performance of the overall system in the context of today’s citizens’ expectations. I had started to think about confidence and about harnessing the invaluable efforts that are made by all those who work so hard in law enforcement and in the justice system every day.”
“The regulations will impose duties on the prosecution, the defence and the court in the management of criminal cases with a view to ensuring that cases are progressed in the most effective way possible, whilst maintaining a focus on the paramount need to secure justice. Subsequent regulations will impose a general duty on anyone involved in criminal proceedings to reach a just outcome as swiftly as possible. This approach couples a statutory change in working practice with a requirement to work towards speedy and just outcomes. I believe that this will have a positive impact on the whole justice system including bail, which can be affected by case delays.”
“<BR /> <BR />Changes initiated by the introduction of sections 88 and 93 of the Act, which deal with early guilty pleas and PPS summons respectively, have already come into operation and have been effective since 1 April 2016. The PPS summons changes, in particular, will help to streamline procedures and reduce the time taken to issue and serve summonses, contributing to the overall measure to speed up justice. <BR /> <BR />Work is also ongoing to finalise regulations to enable the provisions on statutory case management, with implementation scheduled to be in place by September 2017.”
“This motion focuses on bail, however, and it is my strong view that improvement to the operation of the bail system cannot be made without wider systemic improvements to the criminal justice system as a whole. That is why my Department's work under the speeding up justice programme, which touches on bail-related issues, is so vital. <BR /> <BR />Speeding up justice is delivered alongside justice partners. It incorporates legislative reform, as well as operational improvements consisting of administrative and procedural reforms. Those reforms are crucial, and the Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 is integral to delivering them across a number of priority areas to help speed up justice. We are now, thankfully, finalising plans to implement those major provisions.”
“There are broader issues for the justice system to reflect on, too. It is entirely right to ask whether it is focusing on delivering for victims and, indeed, defendants, communities and citizens. It is legitimate to reflect on whether it has the right structures and priorities and a meaningful connection with the people whom it serves, and I was, indeed, giving that much thought. <BR /> <BR />I had already announced a review of the courts, which I referred to as Courts 2020. I had made progress on areas of responsibility under the Executive's Fresh Start action plan, and I had made tackling domestic violence and abuse my top priority.”
“I welcome the fact that today's debate has given us an opportunity to extend again our heartfelt sympathies to the family of David Black not only for their loss but for the ongoing hurt that they feel and, indeed, for the hurt that they will feel because we are debating this and talking about their loved one today. <BR /> <BR />The only person charged in connection with David Black's dreadful murder can now not be found. He was due to be tried in accordance with his rights, but, as of today, the justice system cannot produce him for trial. There are reviews under way. The PSNI and the Police Ombudsman are looking into the issues, and I welcome that because that is, indeed, necessary. <BR /> <BR />There will, I am sure, be lessons to be learned — I almost hate using that phrase because I think that we need more than that.”
“The motion has been tabled following the disappearance of an individual who was on bail and was charged with a serious offence. The public is concerned about the case, and rightly so. The Assembly is concerned and so am I as Justice Minister. I have therefore written to the Lord Chief Justice, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Chief Constable about the issue. <BR /> <BR />As I said, we are right to be concerned. This case is connected to the murder of prison officer David Black, a public servant murdered in the line of duty. His family, friends and community have lost their loved one; the Prison Service has lost a colleague.”
“We need to send out a united message in the Assembly and across Northern Ireland that we reject those who want to take us back to the past. They need to realise that it is over. It is over, and no one wants the activity that they are trying to bring forward. I am sickened not only by the injuries inflicted on the officer but by what might have happened in a public place, with citizens going about their business, in a garage, on a main road. It is beyond any rational explanation. There is no possible logical narrative that justifies what happened on Sunday night. <BR /> <BR />I will return to the detail of the motion because it raises some important issues that absolutely resonate with the current situation and what has happened in the past couple of days, which is why I saw fit to relay my concerns about that.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention and his kind wishes; he is going to have me welling up. <BR /> <BR />I have very much acknowledged what the Chief Constable has said about the events that happened in north Belfast on Sunday. I have never shied away from the fact that the criminal justice system needs to be looked at. We need to revaluate what we need to do to better serve the public in Northern Ireland. I will get on to some of the areas that I, as Justice Minister, was keen to try to progress, albeit I have been limited in the time that I have, but we can see what happens in the next mandate. Certainly, I appreciate the Member's comments. <BR /> <BR />I just want to tie up my comments about Sunday. I thank the community as well for the support that it expressed for the officer, his family and his colleagues.”
“To the officer injured on Sunday night, to his colleague who was with him, to the first responders and to the officers investigating this crime, again, we send our heartfelt best wishes and, indeed, thanks for the work that you do to protect our community from harm.”
“Spraying a garage forecourt with automatic fire is sickening; shooting at young officers in a public place is nothing short of repulsive; putting the public at risk, and a community in fear, is not in the furtherance of a political cause — it is an act of wanton aggression. <BR /> <BR />I want to send two very clear messages to our justice colleagues and to our community. To our justice colleagues, I say this: we support you in your work; we welcome what you do to keep us safe, and we are grateful and indebted. To our police officers who are keeping people safe, to our prison officers who are working hard to rehabilitate offenders, and to our probation officers, court staff and everyone in the justice sector I say this: thank you. The Assembly, I hope, wants you to know that you have our support.”
“I welcome today's motion and debate. I thank the Ulster Unionist Party for bringing it to the House. Generally, I understand, appreciate and, certainly, sympathise with the ethos of the debate, but there are a number of aspects that make it difficult for me to support it. That said, coming from the premise of the victims, which is something that I have always championed as Justice Minister, I am sympathetic to the motion. <BR /> <BR />The motion is concerned with bail issues, which is an important aspect of the justice system, but it is also important that the Assembly send crystal-clear messages to our justice family and to the community that it serves. Whilst this might seem out of context, Mr Deputy Speaker, I ask you to allow me to reiterate some of the points that I made yesterday.”
“If we can move forward, we have to move forward in the right space, because we cannot return to the dark days of the past. Today, we should all be condemning this most dreadful incident. <BR /> <BR />On another note, I want to pay tribute to the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Particularly in my experience as Justice Minister, I have seen the hard work that they do. They put their lives on the line every day for us, in the service of the people of Northern Ireland, and we cannot underestimate that. It is cowardly for someone to take an opportunity, as these despicable individuals have done last night, and it is nothing short of disgusting. That is the clear message that we, as a united Assembly, have to send out today.”
“We cannot become complacent, and whilst there is political instability happening in Northern Ireland right now, this threat has continued right through it. Others will see this as an opportunity to take advantage. If I can give a clear message to this Assembly today, it is that we, as elected representatives, can ensure they do not take advantage of that and we do stand united. Whilst I stand here as the representative for East Londonderry, I also have an interest as Justice Minister. I have been keeping in close contact with the Secretary of State and the Chief Constable on this issue. <BR /> <BR />It is something that does concern me. From the outset of the political instability, I was always concerned that someone would take advantage of it, and I hope this is not an example of that.”
“I welcome today's Matter of the Day, and I appreciate Mr Beattie for tabling it. I also welcome the widespread condemnation that has appeared from all sides of this House. Rightly so, because this issue serves to unite us. <BR /> <BR />I have no doubt that this attack was intended to kill. Thankfully, the officer is in a stable condition, but we could have been hearing about a loss of life this morning. This is not just an attack on our police service; this is an attack on the community and an attack on our country. It was reckless; multiple automatic rounds fired into a public space. I am disgusted. <BR /> <BR />There remains a continued threat against police officers and prison officers in Northern Ireland.”
“I beg the pardon of the Member: he is alluding to the appeals service, and that power has not transferred to my Department yet. It will transfer from, I think, April. There are ongoing discussions with the appeals service and the two Departments in relation to that transfer of power. I am aware of that.”
“I am not aware of any engagement. That is not to say that there has not been any happening. Does the Member want to clarify how that relates to my Department specifically? I might then be able to give him a more defined answer.”
“I am exploring the roll-out of body-worn cameras right across prison staff so that they feel that they are being protected in some way in relation to the challenges that they face. As I mentioned earlier to a Member, I think that PRRT is a way of providing support services, and I am really keen to see that rolled out as soon as possible, not just for serving prison officer staff but for retired prison officers. There are concerns from my perspective about both physical and mental health in our prisons, and it is something that I am really keen to tackle.”
“I recognise those concerns, and I am always keen to meet members of the Prison Service; indeed, on my last visit to Maghaberry, it was important to me that I heard the views of officers on the ground. There is that concern, and there is that stress around the difficulties relating to the job, particularly in Northern Ireland prisons. Prison officers need to be supported more than they are currently, and I have been trying to explore ways to do that. Ultimately, we need to look at the levels of staff in our prisons. Sickness levels do not help, but that perpetuates the cycle because, if people feel stressed, they go off sick. <BR /> <BR />As I said, we have just completed a recruitment campaign, and officers were recruited at the end of last year. To some extent, that will ease the pressure.”
“I am trying to understand what the Member is asking. If he is asking whether sickness levels here are comparable to those in other parts of the United Kingdom, I will be honest and say that I do not know the figures. We could do a comparison, but, as I said in answer to a previous question, it is not appropriate to compare what happens in Northern Ireland prisons to what happens in prisons in England and Wales. Those are two very different perspectives, and we need to be mindful when people suggest comparisons.”
“That is a matter, ultimately, for the British Government and the Secretary of State, but I recognise the concern that there is around the issue and implore anyone involved to address it as soon as possible.”
“Only through what I have read in the media, Mr Dunne. Nothing has been brought to me in an official capacity.”
“As always, I am willing to have a conversation with any Members on any issue that they want to raise with me. Therefore, if Mr Durkan wants to get in touch with my diary secretary, we can arrange that.”
“I am familiar with that case, and it is a matter for the Secretary of State in the Northern Ireland Office to deal with.”
“The sentencing review is ongoing and looks at various elements of sentencing and the offences that we sentence people for. There will therefore be no conclusion to the review, although you may see its outworkings at different intervals.”
“I cannot give you a figure off the top of my head, and it would not be appropriate or responsible to do so. We need to look at sentences, however, and the sentencing review that I announced early in my tenure will enable us to do that. We need to send out a strong message about how drugs devastate families and people across Northern Ireland. Perhaps increasing sentences through a sentencing review, if that is what is suggested, is a way of doing that.”
“I have always said that Northern Ireland is not the same as England and Wales. I think our unique circumstances in Northern Ireland relating to the legacy and the troubles of the past certainly mean we cannot look at it through the lens of what is happening in England and Wales. I also think we need to do what is possible to ensure the safety of prison officers, for a start, and the safety of prisoners. Indeed, the ongoing reviews and any reviews that will look at this, particularly with the new director general in post, will need to be mindful of the circumstances of Northern Ireland.”
“I do not have those figures to hand, but it has been suggested to me that the ratio of staff to prisoners in Northern Ireland is considerably more significant than it is in other parts of the UK. That essentially means we have more prison staff to prisoners than any other part of the United Kingdom.”
“<BR /> <BR />Yes, there needs to be transparency in the renewable heat incentive scheme, but let me remind the House that there is a very expensive mechanism for holding the Northern Ireland Executive to account. It is called the Assembly, and the Public Accounts Committee is one of the mechanisms in that. But do you know what? I will fully support a public inquiry if that is what the people need for transparency in this issue. I think at this time you should stop party politicking, get on with trying to satisfy the constituents that put you in a job and see what happens after the election.”
“Maybe the Member has not had the advantage of being Justice Minister for the past eight months, but I know that you cannot read a piece of legislation in isolation. Are you honestly asking me to overlook the Northern Ireland Act, which came out of the Good Friday Agreement, just to satisfy words you read on a piece of paper? It is not possible, Mr McPhillips, and I think that what you are suggesting to me is actually quite party political. I am an independent, and I will remain an independent. I am not not instigating a public inquiry because I do not want to; I legally cannot do so. That is the legal advice that has been given to me on that.”
“Sure. As I have reiterated time and time again, although the message seems to have got lost for some people, it is not possible for me, as Justice Minister, to instigate a public inquiry. I will explain why. <BR />The RHI scheme does not fall within my remit. If there are inferences of corruption or fraud, again, under the Inquiries Act 2005, it is not possible to conduct a public inquiry for criminal and civil matters. If I were to instigate a public inquiry I would have to do it in consultation with the Executive Committee, which no longer exists. Therefore, it is not possible for me, as the Minister of Justice, without overlooking the Northern Ireland Act 1998 — essentially, the Good Friday Agreement — and the subsequent St Andrews Agreement, to undertake this.”
“Yes, I did. <BR /> <BR />Let me reiterate: I think that not closing these courthouses provides us with an opportunity to look at the wider justice system. I cannot say at the outset of Question Time that I am not willing to transform justice and then close courts for the sake of cutting the bottom line. The courthouses are not closing for now, but if I have a successor, they can make the decision to do that. I just hope they remind the electorate when they do.”
“I responded to the Member's question for written answer, so he should have those details within the next couple of days.”
“<BR /> <BR />As I have previously explained, I want to allow time for proposals for alternative uses of court buildings to be developed in the context of the Courts 2020 review and for full public consultation to be undertaken. In addressing the Assembly on 26 October, I recognised the financial pressures facing the justice system. My Department will continue to work with the Chief Constable, the acting director general of the Northern Ireland Prison Service and the chief executive of the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service to address the pressures within the financial constraints with which we all must operate.”
“While the anticipated saving will not be realised as a result of my decision not to close courthouses across Northern Ireland at this stage, there are no additional costs for the Police Service of Northern Ireland or the Northern Ireland Prison Service. As I explained to the Assembly on 26 October, I reached my decision in the context of a changing justice environment as a result of the Executive's Programme for Government; the publication of the review of civil and family justice, published by Lord Justice Gillen; my focus on problem-solving justice; and the developing digital justice environment. In addition, I was conscious of the widespread concern in local communities about the adverse impacts that the closures would have on access to justice, many of which have been clearly articulated by Members across the House.”
“Perhaps it does need to be controlled, Mr Dunne, but you tell me how we can do that without cutting off access to justice for the most vulnerable in our society.”
“The figures are so significant because it is demand-led. The only realistic way of reducing legal aid is to stop that demand. Do Members want to tell the most vulnerable in society that they cannot have legal aid?”
“No, I do not see a failure. That PAC report focused on the figure of £106 million, and I recognise, as a number of Members have, that that is not insignificant. However, a figure that we also need to focus on is the projected spend for this year, which is £85 million. That is a £21 million reduction. That is not insignificant. If that is not driving change through my Department, I am not sure what is. <BR /> <BR />I do not dispute that further reform is needed. That is something that my officials are working on. However, to be fair, we need to give the reforms a chance. Perhaps some people will say, "Well, that's easy for you to say when it's as significant a figure as it is". We have to understand the purpose of legal aid: it is about providing access to justice for the most vulnerable in our society. Should we not do that any more?”