Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“It was seen that we were to have robust sentencing for some of that, but the public interest, particularly in recent cases, drives a lot of things we do in the Chamber and how that is relevant to legislation. It is important that we take into account the public interest, particularly in these cases, and see how best we can serve the people of this area. <BR /> <BR />I come back to the central register and the two distinct issues it raises. The first relates to access to conviction data for three enforcement bodies: DAERA, councils and the PSNI. The review recognised the need for all enforcement bodies to have access to relevant animal cruelty data. At present, DAERA and the PSNI have access to all relevant conviction data, and work is ongoing to provide councils with similar information.”
“These changes, which have recently come into effect, allow the Director of Public Prosecutions to refer Crown Court cases involving unnecessary suffering and causing, attending or other involvement in an animal fight to the Court of Appeal if he believes that the sentence handed down is unduly lenient. Together, the measures significantly enhance the law on animal cruelty. <BR /> <BR />I turn now to the matter of an accessible central register of those convicted of animal welfare offences or disqualified from keeping animals. Calls for the introduction of a central register raise two distinct issues.”
“Those offences include the breach of a disqualification order, which the review considered as part of its wider approach to preventing those disqualified from obtaining an animal. Until that point, it was only possible to prosecute those cases in the Magistrates’ Courts. The changes provide Northern Ireland with amongst the toughest maximum penalties for animal cruelty of any jurisdiction on these islands. <BR /> <BR />Alongside increasing the maximum penalties, my Department has extended the range of offences captured by the unduly lenient sentences scheme to include certain animal welfare offences.”
“My officials are preparing an order to commence a number of provisions of the 2016 Act, including the higher penalties for animal welfare offences, which, it has been agreed with the Department, will come into effect on 1 August 2016. <BR /> <BR />I want to highlight some of the key changes to increase the maximum penalties. For cases heard in the Crown Court, the Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2016 will increase the maximum sentence from two years to five years. In the Magistrates’ Courts, the maximum sentence for more serious offences has increased from six months to 12 months. The 2016 Act also changes the mode of trial for certain animal welfare offences to allow for the prosecution of the most serious cases in the Crown Court, where new higher maximum penalties will apply.”
“<BR /> <BR />While it was clear that the maximum penalties in the 2011 Act were strong, a combination of factors, including the serious nature of some of the most recent animal cruelty cases, resulted in the review recommending a further increase. That recommendation was warmly welcomed in the consultation that followed the interim report, so much so that the former Justice Minister and Agriculture Minister accepted the recommendation at that point and agreed that it should be implemented as soon as possible. The necessary legislative provision was included in the Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2016 — again, Mr Lyttle alluded to that — and was debated by the Assembly earlier this year, which many of you may remember.”
“In examining that matter, the review considered factors such as the penalties available in neighbouring jurisdictions for animal welfare crime and considered the sentencing framework more generally to determine what the appropriate sentencing powers should be. The 2011 Act already provided Northern Ireland with the highest maximum penalties in the UK and provided for the most serious cases in Northern Ireland to be prosecuted in the Crown Court with a maximum penalty of two years. In the rest of the UK, animal welfare offences are summary only offences. The review also recognised, however, that, since the introduction of the 2011 Act, the Republic of Ireland has introduced new animal welfare laws that carry a maximum penalty of five years.”
“While sentencing in individual cases is a matter for the independent judiciary, which must take account of the relevant facts and circumstances of any case, the role of my Department is to ensure that a suitable legal framework exists to provide courts with appropriate powers to deal with all cases of animal cruelty. That includes ensuring that the maximum penalties available to the courts are appropriate. However, I appreciate that members of the public will be frustrated when they hear about awful acts of animal cruelty and will rightly want to see appropriate sentences handed down. <BR /> <BR />One of the key recommendations for my Department arising out of the interim report was that the maximum penalties should be increased.”
“<BR /> <BR />The review team published its interim report in February 2015, setting out emerging findings and recommendations. Responses to the public consultation that followed indicated broad support for many of the recommendations and highlighted additional matters for the review to consider. Dog breeding, in particular, was an area that attracted significant interest. <BR /> <BR />The issue of sentences for animal cruelty offences, which is the main aspect of the review that is relevant to my Department, was considered in detail.”
“As many of you will remember, in March 2014, the Assembly called for the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, in conjunction with the Department of Justice, to review the implementation of the 2011 Act, particularly sentencing guidelines and practices, to ensure that maximum effectiveness is brought to bear to combat animal welfare crime. Although sentencing was a key issue for the review to consider, engagement with key stakeholders identified other important areas where animal welfare arrangements should be examined to see what, if any, improvements could be made. Those areas included the arrangements for how the 2011 Act was enforced, how the various enforcement bodies worked together and how best to serve the public.”
“<BR /> <BR />Under the 2011 Act, the statutory duties for enforcement fall to three bodies: DAERA, in respect of cases involving farmed animals; councils, for cases involving non-farmed animals; and the Police Service of Northern Ireland for cases involving wild animals or more serious animal welfare offences, including those involving other forms of criminality. My Department’s involvement relates to the general policy on disclosing information on criminal convictions. <BR /> <BR />It may be helpful for the record if we note the detail of the new sentencing arrangements, some of which Ms Mallon touched on.”
“For instance, tougher sentences have been legislated for and will be commenced on 1 August this year, as was alluded to by Mr Lyttle. I also welcome the fact that DAERA and the councils have put a proposal to the Judicial Studies Board offering a briefing on animal welfare issues. That proposal is being considered. <BR /> <BR />During the review, those calling for a central register or alternative system for sharing conviction data argued that it would assist in the enforcement of the 2011 Act. Mr Weir referred to the need for robust systems, perhaps more generally, and that is something I would like to discuss with my DAERA colleague.”
“Like all the Members who have spoken, I am an animal lover — unashamedly, like Mrs Little Pengelly. I grew up with pets in my family home, and I have absolutely no understanding of what motivates people to commit such abhorrent crimes. While it is worth noting that my Department has a specific role in animal welfare, I am keen to explore this with my Executive colleague. <BR /> <BR />The motion calls for further consideration of tougher criminal sanctions and the establishment of an accessible central register of those convicted of animal welfare offences and those disqualified from keeping animals. Several members noted the joint review, and Mr Beattie referred to the progress being made. Mr Sheehan stressed the need to prevent crimes against animals.”
“Before turning to the detail, I give a commitment now: I will write to my Executive colleague the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to bring the detail of today's debate to her attention and to seek a conversation about whether there is more to do to ensure that the arrangements for protecting animals are as robust as possible.”
“The motion also touches on the challenges faced in tackling the scourge of animal cruelty in our society, particularly given the impact that technology has had on the sale and transfer of animals. <BR /> <BR />Public opinion is strong on the need for us to protect animals, promote welfare and bring to justice those who inflict harm and suffering. We have heard a wide range of concerns today about the farmed and domestic animal sectors, online selling, access to data, the inappropriate criminal justice response to cruelty and the need to educate more and promote animal welfare.”
“I thank those who tabled the motion, which raises the really important issue of animal welfare. For me, it is so positive that we are debating the motion early in the mandate, because I have no doubt that each one of us, when on the doorsteps, heard concerns from our constituents about animal welfare during the election. I thank Mrs Little Pengelly and Trevor Clarke for bringing it forward. <BR /> <BR />The motion and debate acknowledge the work that is already under way as a result of the review of the implementation of the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011. The review was carried out by the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, supported by the Department of Justice.”
“If that means looking at the current process, that is something that we should certainly explore.”
“I thank the Member for his good wishes and question. I appreciate why people think that the reforms to legal aid have perhaps not been fully realised in the way in which they were set out to do. A number of reforms have been implemented to date, although a number have not. It is fair to say that £19 million in savings will be realised when they are fully implemented. Does that suggest that we should look to further reforms? Perhaps. This is a new mandate, with new representatives and new opinions. I am more than happy to listen to the views of people who think that we need to go further in reforming legal aid. <BR /> <BR />From my perspective, legal aid should very much be about helping the most vulnerable in society to get access to justice. Access to justice is my overarching aim of what we intend to do in that area.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. If he has examples of specific ongoing incidents, I suggest that he directs those comments to the PSNI, even through the Policing Board. Again, it is an operational matter, which I find it difficult to comment on. Indeed, it would not be appropriate for me to do so. To reiterate: incidents of hate crime are unacceptable. I appreciate where you are coming from, so, in trying to deal with this particular issue, I would direct the Member to the PSNI.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Of course it is unacceptable; all incidents of hate crime are unacceptable, whether it be sectarianism or racism. The people responsible for that type of activity need to be held accountable for it. It is the police's role to investigate that. All incidents of hate crime are unacceptable.”
“Yes. My Department certainly is trying to encourage us to move forward on the legacy inquests. The Lord Chief Justice's plan to deal with all the inquests sooner rather than later is something that my Department is very supportive of. As I mentioned in response to earlier questions, it is something that I think that we will move on. I hope that that will happen sooner rather than later. It is certainly something that I am encouraging very much at the Executive table.”
“I thank the Member for her question. The language used should be very carefully considered, because this is, and rightly so, a very emotive issue that we are dealing with. I think that some of the comments need to be considered in that light and, more than anything else, in mind of the victims and their families. I would certainly take care with the language I use.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. By all means, I think there is a role for my Department and, indeed, all the Departments within the Executive, to better inform, if you like, the community and voluntary sector of how they can make use of public funding, particularly in areas such as this. Having that engagement with the community and voluntary sector moving forward is one of the aspects of the Programme for Government that I am really content with. I know that officials in my Department are working on a strategy to identify the really fantastic community and voluntary groups out there that provide a service to our community, let us face it, on our behalf. It is an important concept moving forward and one I hope the Executive will fully realise when we have an action plan on our programme.”
“An assets recovery scheme is run through my Department. It takes assets that have been recovered and shares them among appropriate community and voluntary sector groups. Depending on the crime, it might help the victims. I think it is a great scheme and a way of ensuring that crime does not pay. Indeed, the proceeds of crime can go back to its victims. Various groups that I sit on — I am thinking mainly of the Organised Crime Task Force, a multi-agency group that I chair — recover assets on a cross-jurisdictional basis, and we then decide what to do with them.”
“Yes, entirely. I think we need adequate facilities across our prison estate not just in Magilligan but in other establishments in Northern Ireland. Certainly, my Department is committed to trying to realise bringing new facilities forward. It is a case of trying to ensure that the current outline business case is appropriate and looking at how we can move it forward through funding.”
“I thank the Member for her kind wishes. Indeed, I extend my kind wishes to my constituency colleague, who is new to the House following the recent election. <BR /> <BR />Yes, I had a very positive visit to Magilligan. It was positive in the sense that it was important for me to get out and see my prison estate and determine what work needs to be done. For me, the visit reiterated that a refurbishment of Magilligan really needs to take place. Prior to my becoming Minister, that is certainly something I advocated. It is now about how I can build on the work of my predecessor to realise the outline business case that has been approved and how we can maybe put the appropriate funds in place to try to move it forward.”
“I thank the Member for his question. He will be aware that legal challenges to the closure of Ballymena, Lisburn and Strabane courthouses were submitted to the High Court in early May. All three applications for leave to appeal were heard on 16 June, and leave was granted. The substantive appeal hearing will not take place until autumn — the end of October, I believe — so it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on the closure of those courthouses while ongoing legal action is in effect.”
“As I mentioned to other Members, we have a community strategy that deals with various agencies in tackling drug or alcohol abuse. We work with the PSNI and the local policing and community safety partnerships and other various agencies in trying to do that. It is something that we take very seriously. <BR /> <BR />I spoke in a debate a couple of weeks ago in respect of psychoactive substances, but it is important to note that alcohol can be as damaging as any other type of drug, including ones that are legal, such as prescription drugs. It is something that my Department is committed to, and we are keen to engage to see whether we can stop that type of activity.”
“I agree with the Member; it is a worrying find. However, it is an operational matter for the police to investigate. I suggest that he contacts them directly if he has any questions particular to that incident.”
“I thank the Member for his kind remarks. I welcome him to the Assembly and look forward to working with him on any issues he wishes to raise with me in respect of my Justice remit. <BR /> <BR />I have received a briefing about the suspected explosive material that was taken out of circulation last night. Those who have such explosives have no regard for public safety and do not conduct anything with care. In fact, their intent is to cause havoc. Unfortunately, that can cause injury or killing. I also find it incomprehensible that the explosive material was found in a residential area. I reiterate that there can be no justification for that type of action. Those who are responsible should be held to account for their actions.”
“The Police Service of Northern Ireland, which is also a designated member of the policing and community safety partnership, has robust measures in place to deal with any antisocial behaviour incidents in the park, including a ban on alcohol. The Ards and north Down policing district command unit has also developed an effective collaborative working relationship with Translink, the council and the Northern Ireland Environment Agency, which will manage the park, and there will be ongoing monitoring to ensure that everyone enjoys the facilities at the park over the summer months.”
“The issue of addressing antisocial behaviour at Crawfordsburn Country Park is an operational matter for the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the Northern Ireland Policing Board. I can let you know, however, that addressing antisocial behaviour is a strategic objective for all policing and community safety partnerships and that the Ards and North Down partnership has set aside over £95,000 to address the issue this year. I can also advise that, in May 2016, Translink, Ards and North Down council, Lisburn and Castlereagh council and the PSNI ran a joint operation for five consecutive weeks, which helped to reduce antisocial behaviour at the Crawfordsburn Country Park and beaches. As a result of the joint operation, calls to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for its services were drastically reduced.”
“Yes, I do agree that it demonstrates that, as will other events that, inevitably, come before us. To reiterate, I am speaking with my Executive colleagues to seek a way forward in trying to deal with these issues.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Again, the Loughinisland report is an operational matter for the PSNI, so it is difficult for me to comment on that. I will say this: in 1994, six men did not come home, and that is a travesty. Whilst this report might provide some comfort to the families, the journey that they are on will not end. This is an indication of a lot of these types of inquest in Northern Ireland. As I said in answer to a previous question, we need to be careful in how we put these things and be very mindful of the fact that there are victims here. Working with my Executive colleagues, it is something that I hope to address sooner rather than later, so that Northern Ireland can move on and to ensure that we are dealing with the past in the most appropriate way.”
“I thank the Member for his good wishes and for his supplementary question. I do recognise that this was an atrocity and it is a journey that will not end with the outcome of the inquest. Indeed, a lot of the outstanding inquests that we need to take forward, hopefully sooner rather than later, will have a similar impact on the victims and their families. On this inquest, it is a matter for the Coroner to hold people to account, and any police investigation is an operational matter, so it is difficult for me to comment. Moving forward, it is something that we need to address, and we need to do so sooner rather than later.”
“I thank the Member for his kind wishes and his supplementary question. Yes, I do agree, and I think we need to move forward on dealing with the past, whether that is with the legacy inquests or the historical investigations unit. Cases such as these demonstrate the need for doing that to finally give victims and their families a response to something that they have been dealing with for many years.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. I draw his attention to my comments on Brexit and the language that we use in trying to move Northern Ireland forward. <BR /> <BR />The police investigation is a live investigation. At this stage, I cannot comment on the timeline for the conclusion of the investigation or any elements within it.”
“Following submissions from legal representatives, the inquest continued on 8 June but has been adjourned until today. <BR /> <BR />I recognise the importance of the inquest system to deliver a proper and robust investigation into the deaths that resulted from this atrocity. Like the families, I welcome that a new investigative avenue has been identified. That must be fully explored. As the conduct of the ongoing inquest is a matter for the coroner and the police investigation is an operational matter for the Chief Constable, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further at this stage.”
“First, I express publicly my sympathy for the families on the loss of their loved ones. That day, 5 January 1976, was one of the most tragic days in the history of the Troubles, when 10 workers were singled out on their way home from work and gunned down. Therefore, the holding of an inquest some 40 years on is a welcome development for the families, albeit it has been far too long. <BR /> <BR />The Kingsmills inquest opened on 23 May 2016 before His Honour Judge Sherrard. On 31 May, the coroner received correspondence from the Crown Solicitor indicating that new evidence had come to light insomuch as a match had been identified for a palm print found on a vehicle thought to have been involved in the attack. The families were apprised of this development on the same day.”
“I thank Mr Lunn for his kind wishes and for his supplementary question. Again, I am not overly familiar with the detail of that, but I will come back to you with an answer.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I welcome his kind wishes from the Opposition Benches, and I also wish them well. Forgive me; I am not over the detail of what you asked, but I am quite happy to come back to the Member in writing with an answer on that.”
“I thank Mr Dunne for his supplementary question. He will appreciate that the report was published this morning. I will take time to consider it carefully. I welcome that the report acknowledges that progress has been made and that we are continuing to deliver on our reform programme, which has not been fully implemented. Indeed, the Member will be aware that my officials will be speaking on the report when they next meet the Committee. I acknowledge the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General in scrutinising my Department's progress against the recommendations made previously.”
“In particular, standard fees for family proceedings cases will be brought forward to replace the current system. It is estimated that that will realise savings of £3 million per annum. Proposals for changes to the scope of civil legal aid will also be brought before the Assembly later this year and are aimed at delivering further savings.”
“Legal aid is demand-led, and expenditure fluctuates depending on the volume of cases and their complexity and outcome. The spend on legal aid in the 2015-16 financial year was £92 million. The total spend was affected by barristers in the Crown Court's withdrawal of services, which reduced the number of cases completed last year. <BR /> <BR />The reforms that have been introduced, including the introduction of standard fees in the criminal courts and the removal of very high cost cases, will realise savings of some £19 million per annum when fully implemented. The first of the reforms introduced in the civil courts, relating to the authorisation of counsel, have already delivered savings in excess of £1 million. <BR /> <BR />Further reforms will be brought forward in this financial year.”
“As I said, I have not quite set my priorities yet, but, as some Members will already be aware, I am inviting all political parties, including the smaller ones, to come forward with their ideas for justice so that I can see whether they can form a part of my priorities for the next five years.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I am familiar with the fact that the Member has an interest in the area of integrated education. Generally, it is something that we should be moving towards. Forgive me, but I am not over the detail of my Department and have not yet come to a conclusion as to what my priorities will be. I realise that these conversations need to be had. It is not just about adults having these conversations but about bringing the kids along with us to ensure that we do not find ourselves in a situation in which our communities are segregated. <BR /> <BR />Given the Member's interest in the area, I would certainly welcome a conversation with him to see how he feels we can broach the subject.”
“I am quite happy to do that and to try to get a better outcome for Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for her kind wishes and for her supplementary question. <BR /> <BR />As I said to Mr Douglas, I appreciate that these are difficult and sensitive matters, but it is a case of trying to move Northern Ireland forward. To do that, we need to start addressing the issues honestly. If that means engaging with people, by all means, we have to do that. It is not about justifying their existence but about being part of the process of moving Northern Ireland forward. I am of a generation that wants to see things being done in Northern Ireland. I am a representative of people, and, if that means that I can contribute in some way to moving Northern Ireland forward, I will. <BR /> <BR />We have to take these difficult decisions. It is why people put us in the Chamber to represent them: so that we can make decisions on their behalf.”
“I thank the Member for her kind wishes and for her supplementary question. <BR /> <BR />I commend the work of the community and voluntary sector in tackling different aspects, in the area of justice and in the wider public service. They play an important role. I am a big advocate of the community and voluntary sector, from the perspective that those people are best placed to understand and facilitate their communities. I will certainly look at other ways in which my Department can facilitate the community and voluntary sector in trying to deal with these problems, which are very close to home.”
“I appreciate the Member's comments. There needs to be political agreement on the moneys being released. It is critical that we move forward in doing that. From my perspective of leading the Justice Department, I am keen to ensure that we have political agreement on moving forward so that the moneys can be released. As I mentioned in my earlier response on legacy inquests, these problems will occur, and they will not go away. We need to deal with them, and, as Justice Minister, I am committed to ensuring that we start to address them.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question and good wishes. I wish him the best for always, because I am that type of person.”