Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“I am quite keen to see the community and voluntary sector work within domiciliary care, particularly in rural areas, so that they can reach those people who seem to have slipped through the net. How is the Minister encouraging investment or funding in that area, so that we can invest more in services in rural areas, particularly for domiciliary care?”
“How does the Minister intend to move forward after the report to support GPs so that their workload is not as significant?”
“I appreciate the Minister's response. I recently met doctors from general practice who told me that they were at breaking point because they felt that their resources were so tightly squeezed. One of the biggest pressures is GPs taking on responsibilities that have never been theirs, such as interpreting results from consultants or even filling in DLA forms —”
“We can set aside our differences and can work together and simply get things done. <BR /> <BR />Today is International Women’s Day. Mr Speaker, you have made a week of events, and I think it is really a fantastic week of opportunities. I am going to declare 2016 as the year for women, particularly in Northern Ireland, because I think we deserve it and it is a good message that we need to send out to women and men.”
“Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I also pay tribute to Caitríona Ruane. We had our first meeting of the women's caucus yesterday. I should not really be on it, if I am quite honest, because I am an independent Member. It was designated by d'Hondt, but Caitríona Ruane went out of her way to ensure that I am on it. We had a discussion about what the politics of that was, and I am quite ashamed to say that I put the politics ahead of the generosity she offered me as a woman. I am quite happy now to put on record that Sinn Féin gave up a seat so that I could be on the group because it saw the value of me being on it for my constituency and for other women. I think that is important, and I think that is why women generally have such a good input to politics here.”
“I think that is how women need to progress; we should not be set aside and considered to be not good at things because we are women. We are good at things generally. I have never seen myself as any less capable simply for being female. If others do, quite frankly, that is their problem, not mine. I hope that is how other younger women will see the Assembly today and see me. If I can leave the Chamber today and the only message I have given out is that we as women will be good role models for other women coming forward —”
“However, I have looked to the strength of other women and have seen how they have conducted themselves in the Chamber, from all sides of the House, and I appreciate their guidance. So, I thank you all for being there. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I will have been an MLA for two years on the day of the election. This year, 2016, has been a great year. I hope it will be a better one, but we will see in May. It saw the first female First Minister in Northern Ireland, and I am kind of glad she is not here because I must admit that Arlene Foster is someone who I have always admired. I would be quite embarrassed saying this if she were in the Chamber. I admire her because she is a really good politician. She is not just a good female politician; genuinely, she is a good politician.”
“As a Member who will have been here for coming up to two years on the day of the election, I know that your support of me, particularly as an independent female in the Assembly, has been really greatly received. You stood up last year and declared yourself a feminist, and, Mr Speaker, I think you have earned that. I hope that your successor, who maybe will be a female, will continue to build on that wall so that we can keep reaching that glass ceiling that we need to keep breaking time and time again. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to all female MLAs. It was a really wonderful man who got me here, but I think my learning experience in these past two years really was guided by the women in the Chamber. Being an independent in this corner, and a female independent at that, can be quite difficult.”
“Happy International Women's Day to everyone, the women and the men, because I do not think anyone would be in the Chamber without a woman, and that is their mother. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, I join others in thanking you for your commitment in progressing gender equality in the Assembly. I feel that that will be your legacy.”
“Whatever side of the fence you are on in your political beliefs, these types of attacks do nothing more than undermine the cause you are trying to promote. I think what we, as Assembly Members, and people right across Northern Ireland can do is to stand together with all those in the security forces, including prison officers, against this attack. My thoughts are with the prison officer and his family.”
“Regardless of whether it is for the centenary or any sort of commemoration this year, it is despicable.”
“I join others in condemning the attack on the prison officer at the weekend. Some of the comments that Mr Givan made resonate with me, because I was the daughter of a prison officer, and we grew up, over 10 to 20 years, feeling threats in our lives. I remember once getting a telephone call to say that we would have to go to a safe house. We did not go to the safe house, and, thankfully, it was not necessary at the time, but it was a real threat. The worrying side of that was that it was normality for my family and the families of prison officers across Northern Ireland. That was 10 or 15 years ago, and it is quite sad to think that, in 2016, we are still faced with those types of threat. Whoever may try to justify this, there is no justification for it.”
“That means that, when individuals get to that age, the right services are in place at the right time.”
“<BR /> <BR />Recommendation 29 says that DEL should deliver a functional tracking system for young people leaving education. One of the big difficulties is that they fall off that cliff edge and then are lost. We do not know what is happening to them. Those in the sector, including Mencap in particular, told us that it is vital to collect that data, but, following on from that, we need to monitor and evaluate it so that we can ensure that DEL-funded or other Department-funded programmes address the need that we identified in the first instance. There is a lack of such a tracking system. <BR /> <BR />Finally, recommendation 30 suggests that transition planning should begin at 14 so that Departments such as DEL and Health can assess the numbers coming through and plan on a more long-term basis.”
“<BR /> <BR />Moving forward, one of the recommendations of the Committee is for all Departments to collect and share data on those with learning disabilities to better support individuals, plan services and decrease duplication. That duplication is happening across the board, and we are wasting resources when we could be putting them to better use. <BR /> <BR />Recommendations 27 and 28 almost follow on from that data collection in pulling things together. The Committee commissioned a piece of research from RaISe that mapped the services that are available across Northern Ireland. Recommendation 28 suggests that the Department should use that mapping model to provide a platform for parents and carers of young people with learning disabilities.”
“<BR /> <BR />Another revelation from the inquiry is that support seems to be inconsistent for young people whilst in education and then seems to be non-existent post-19. It is that cliff edge. Young people are getting lost, and, if anything, this is a group of people we need to support more than others. <BR /> <BR />Whilst parents are taking on that burden of statutory services that are too stretched to be provided by other agents, they are faced with the same hurdles that seem to characterise this government. That means that people are not able to pass on information to one another or collectively work together. It is the silo mentality that has been discussed by other Members. We are getting caught up in the red tape. In fact, the only people who are suffering from this are the young people.”
“I think that is important, and I stress that we need to share information and create a central knowledge platform so that parents and carers can access that for their children. <BR /> <BR />What also came out of the inquiry — this is important to note — is that, whilst it is acknowledged that there are social workers and transitional workers in place, there are not enough of them, and to get the best transitions for their young people, parents are having to do that work themselves. That is simply not good enough. Whilst we cannot provide full support through a social worker or transitional officer, we need to ensure that that information is available. It should not be disjointed and should be available in one central place.”
“Thirdly, there is a need for systematic data collection to assist the monitoring and evaluation of programmes and projects to ensure that needs are met through the transition process. <BR /> <BR />Collectively, recommendations 26 to 28 endorse the need to collect, collate and share data. When speaking to them during the inquiry, representatives of the sector felt that, without robust data collection in particular, it is impossible to illustrate what young people with learning disabilities do when they leave school or to identify any barriers they face in maybe going into further education or into finding employment or training programmes that could lead them into employment.”
“I will speak to recommendations 26 to 30, which emphasise the need for high-quality information. I do not really think we need to go into too much detail about why more information is important. Knowledge is power, and, in this case, it is empowering for these young people, who certainly need our help. <BR /> <BR />The need for more information spans three issues. First, we need better and more accessible information to ensure that individuals with learning disabilities and their parents and/or carers can make informed, correct choices for their life moving forward and to ensure that participation. After all, it is their life and they should play a part in it. Secondly, there is a need to track the progression of individuals post-education.”
“If the Minister takes away anything from this debate today, I hope that it is that he should, between now and May, use his influence to ensure the inclusion of these recommendations in the new Programme for Government.”
“I am personally quite interested in this issue. A woman, Clare, with learning disabilities — she will not mind me discussing her during this debate — works with me in my office, and one of the big concerns is what will happen to her if I do not get elected in May or if her mother passes away — she is an elderly lady, so that might happen — in the next five to 10 years. <BR /> <BR />A lot of such concerns have characterised this inquiry. People are concerned about what will happen to their kids or young people if and when they are no longer around. That all comes into this. So, I hope that the recommendations in the report will be seriously considered by the Department, moving forward into the new mandate.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to discuss the specific recommendations from the Committee's inquiry into post-special educational needs provision in Northern Ireland. Like others, I will begin by commending the work of my Committee colleagues and the Committee staff for the considerable work done on such an important inquiry. I specifically pay tribute to the Chair, Robin Swann. I think that he has led this particular inquiry with a lot of passion and genuineness, and it is clearly very important to him. <BR /> <BR />These young people often find themselves at a cliff edge when making decisions about the next steps of their life. We do have a net, but it is full of holes, and, unfortunately, too many people are slipping through, which is devastating for the young people and their families.”
“What support will the Minister offer generally to rowing and other sports to ensure that we do create that important legacy when we have this level of success?”
“We are incredibly talented on the north coast, but I believe the level of our success has led to some complacency in the Executive because they think that will carry us through.”
“I do not believe for one minute that the Department had any intention of introducing the legislation before the end of the mandate. I think that that is a disgrace because, by not doing that, we are failing a significant part of our society. On behalf of the Department, will the junior Minister put on record its commitment to move that legislation as soon as possible in the new mandate?”
“I think that we need to start moving to put the message out that the Assembly is not about individual MLAs but about the people of Northern Ireland.”
“It aims to underpin the purpose of the ministerial code, which actually seeks to engender a sense of collective responsibility. Governance in the previous year has not been the best. Some aspects of our Government were a farce and an affront to the people of Northern Ireland. Whilst many reasons have been given for leaving the Executive, either definitely or indefinitely, a lot of our problems came from their inability to work together. Even now, I am not quite sure that they can work together, but you have to keep up appearances for an impending election. If the ministerial code had been in place last year, with the appropriate mechanisms to hold Ministers to account, maybe we would not have wasted those six months and not now be under pressure to pass all this legislation; it is a just thought.”
“It is not about what we are tabling; it is about what we hope will eventually come out of that. We are actually having a conversation about what we need to do to get this place back to being about the people. Putting in some sort of sanction, or way of getting to a sanction, might actually deter corrupt Ministers who want to go about business in the wrong way, and that can only be a good thing. Again, I think that, if we work towards having independent analysis and investigations of these types of complaints, that will generally make everybody feel quite comfortable with it. <BR /> <BR />Our amendment is not an attack on the shortcomings of individual Ministers, if any party in the House is thinking that that is the case.”
“<BR /> <BR />Beyond political grievances or frustrations with not having a proper mechanism in place, the Westminster Committee on Standards in Public Life criticised the accountability mechanisms in the Executive in 2009-2010. Our own Assembly Committee on Standards and Privileges stated in 2010 that we need to have a more robust process for holding Ministers to account. In this mandate alone, I understand that 10% of the 70 complaints against MLAs were about Ministers, and those were turned away because this was not the appropriate mechanism to deal with them. So we need to find something that holds us to account. <BR /> <BR />To conclude and sum up — and I am speaking only to this amendment — what we are proposing today will lead to a robust, independent mechanism.”
“Either way, it is not a satisfactory outcome, and it demonstrates that the ministerial code is not really worth the paper that it is written on unless it is determined by, maybe, an independent investigation or another appropriate sanction. <BR /> <BR />I reiterate that we have not gone into that sort of detail in these specific amendments, but that can be worked towards. As I say an awful lot about this place, sometimes people do not really care what you say, but they remember how you made them feel. Right now, people are not feeling good about this place. If we make this amendment tonight, maybe they will start to believe that it is not about us.”
“<BR /> <BR />Interestingly, as Mr Agnew said, after the Committee came out with its decision, the Minister's own party produced a minority report, which, not surprisingly, exonerated the Minister at the time. The example that I outlined in respect of Mr McCausland is a foregone conclusion because, essentially, we now have two arguably politically biased outcomes that now have to be sidestepped because there is nothing else for it. Potentially, a Minister has breached the ministerial code and got away with it, or, fair enough, he is innocent and people have doubts about it because it was his own party that acquitted him.”
“Sinn Féin's Alex Maskey, following the outcome of the Committee's inquiry into former Minister Nelson McCausland last year, spoke about the problems in holding people to account, so, while the Statutory Committee has a formal role in a legislature to scrutinise and to hold the appropriate Minister and Department to account, it cannot fulfil that role because we do not have a mechanism in place. It is quite worrying: what is the Northern Ireland Assembly's role if we cannot hold Ministers and their Departments to account? The SDLP also spoke out about it at that time, so, again, I am really just reflecting the general mood of the House.”
“If it passes today, it will provide the people of Northern Ireland with a shred of confidence that we are not in this for ourselves. I think that that is quite important as we come to the end of this mandate. <BR /> <BR />Again, I reiterate that the current procedure is not good enough. For the reasons that I stated above, I think that it is actually an affront to the ministerial code that the St Andrews Agreement fought for. It really does just pay lip service. If you cannot access the appropriate accountability mechanism in respect of a judicial review, it is not really accountable, and it is not accessible. I think that, through this amendment, this is what we are trying to improve. <BR /> <BR />Other parties have spoken out against the process.”
“I know that I am not alone in my scepticism of the Executive leadership being without prejudice to bring forward the appropriate sanctions on Ministers when necessary. I do not think that impartiality can ever be agreed when you are a member of the same party as the person against whom you are bringing these complaints. I genuinely think that only an independent investigation can underpin a fair and balanced outcome. <BR /> <BR />We are coming to the end of a mandate that has been characterised by accusations of corruption, self-interest, greed and general public apathy about these institutions. We accept that this amendment is not detailed. It was deliberately designed in that way so that we could allow the opportunity to take this in the direction of an Assembly that, hopefully, is building towards more accountable institutions.”
“We have tabled an amendment that tries to make this Assembly, this Government and these institutions more accountable by making those accountability mechanisms more accessible to the general public. <BR /> <BR />I will touch on how the current procedure for holding Ministers to account works. It begins in the Executive Committee. Ministers can begin a process of judicial review against their Executive colleagues. However, if anything, I think that this process undermines the ministerial code that was envisaged in the St Andrews Agreement, because a lot of what the St Andrews Agreement attempted to do in respect of the code was to engender some sort of collective responsibility, whereas Ministers taking each other to court kind of flies in the face of that.”
“Outside of the Executive, in nearly nine years since that code came into effect, there remains limited opportunity to investigate breaches of the ministerial code, due a lot, in my opinion, to the fact that there is an absence of an independent adviser or indeed any direct mechanism to deal with complaints about Ministers in respect of the code. I do take Mr Ross's point that, yes, it is a statutory document, so it is held to account in the court system, but I think that what we are saying here, and what our amendments allude to, is that that is not good enough. We do not think that it is a realistic opportunity for the general public, for example, to take Ministers to court through judicial review for costs and all the other complications with that.”
“I appreciate the opportunity to speak on amendment Nos 12 and 22, tabled by Mr Agnew and me. <BR /> <BR />The Member across the Floor is right to distinguish between the ministerial code and the ministerial code of conduct. The St Andrews Agreement allowed for a statutory ministerial code. After approval by the Northern Ireland Assembly, the ministerial code took effect on 8 May 2007. It is a full document. It includes a pledge of office, a ministerial code of conduct, several principles of public life and provision on the role of the Executive Committee, North/South Ministerial Council and the British-Irish Council.”
“I am here as a representative, and if a woman says to me that she really cannot carry a child to term, who am I to say that she has to? So that is why I think we need to be realistic about changing the law in this respect. I will be honest, I do not like these amendments because I do not think it is the right vehicle to do it. But I do think that we should do it as soon as possible, and I really do look forward to doing that.”
“Ideally, I would like a Programme for Government commitment on that. The junior Minister is here, and if she wishes to do that, or if any of the political parties in here want to do that, then to me, that is the solid proof that you are actually going to tackle this and you are not going to put it on the back burner because it is too dirty an issue to tackle. We have to be brave because it is our job to be brave, and we are the voice of the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />People ask me, "Claire, you are a young woman, what would you do?". Honestly? I cannot really answer that. I imagine that I probably would not terminate the child, if I am really honest, but I cannot say that without being in that situation and knowing that feeling. But that is me. It is not about me; it is about the people of Northern Ireland.”
“That concerns me. It concerns me that we are going to find ourselves back here again, debating this, because we did not get it right, and we did not do it by the right vehicle. I will be really honest; in the year of my journey, most particularly in the past two weeks, I have changed my mind so often on this. I have changed my mind throughout the debate, to the extent that I do not know what to do. I do not know what to do that is right, and that leads me to say that I will probably not support this amendment. <BR /> <BR />Not because I do not agree that we should be supporting women; we should. I welcome the fact that this debate has been put on the table, and the largest party has said that it will try to bring forward a working group on it, but I need a better commitment than that.”
“— but it is getting us talking. Contrary to all of the above, I am disappointed that we have had to do it in this way. I understand the argument that we have been discussing this for a year and that the Justice Minister tried to table it at the Executive. However, probably because of the lack of being brave, the Executive did not want to push this issue. So it has been tabled by party colleagues. Do I agree with it? Not entirely; I do not really like the wording. I have significant reservations, particularly in relation to the comments that Mr Allister made. Further to his information, I looked it up, and I discovered that disability is defined as a condition that will be life-limiting up to 12 months or is one whereby children are severely deformed. That rationale suggests that this could be contrary to our disability legislation.”
“Equally, we are failing people who want to carry the child to term, and that is not good enough. <BR /> <BR />I commend the proponents of all the amendments for bringing them tonight, because we are talking about it. I have no doubt in my mind that the First Minister would not have proposed a working group had this amendment not been tabled. This is a reaction; it is not an action —”
“However, women who, with all the support in the world, have said that they cannot carry that child to term, for whatever reason, should be supported too, but they are not. Whether you agree with abortion or not, women are travelling from Northern Ireland across the water to have terminations. In my constituent's personal experience, she said that she was made to feel like she was doing something wrong. She was wheeled in and out like a number, and the whole process and experience took less than a couple of hours. She had to get on a plane back to Northern Ireland that night, and she did not have any opportunity to grieve in the way that she should have been allowed to had this facility been available over here. So, we failed her; we really did.”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the arguments that I took on board when I was lobbied by the Evangelical Alliance is that, when a woman is faced with this decision, because there is such a fear among the medical profession, it is almost directed towards the clinical way of going, so there is no psychological support around that. It is probably skewed a little bit towards having an abortion. That is the only option, because right now in our health system — I am willing to be corrected on this — we do not have any support for that decision. <BR /> <BR />Equally, women who feel that they can carry to term a child with a condition as severe as a fatal foetal abnormality should be very much supported in doing that.”
“She could not believe that; she could not understand that the country that she lived in and the Government that was supposed to protect her rights and interests was not there to support her in this decision. <BR /> <BR />That is where the failure is. Tonight, I do not think that we should be asking MLAs to trust women; we should be asking women to trust MLAs. If a woman came to me and asked, "Can we trust our MLAs?", as one, I would say, "No, we cannot, because we are failing you". We are failing them on both sides of the argument, to be fair.”
“The way in which she put the argument to me, and I will put it to Members, is that she had a child — a son who she brought to me — and that the child that she conceived was very much wanted in order to give her son a brother or a sister. At her 20-week scan, anencephaly was diagnosed, and she asked what it was, because it is something that many young women would not have known about. The doctor told her that, essentially, her child did not have a head. She immediately took it as a miscarriage, and she was prepared to deal with it in that way. However, the doctor told her that she would have to carry the child to term or make the trip across the water to have an abortion.”
“This is probably the hardest decision that I will ever make as a politician. Certainly, up until this point, it will be the hardest decision that I have ever made. My journey to making this decision began a year ago when these proposals were put on the table by the Justice Minister. Initially I did not know what it was or really understand it, but a constituent came into my office —she was a girl whom I had worked with when we were younger — and explained that the child she had conceived had been diagnosed with encephalopathy. I was not sure what that was.”
“I recognise the arguments — others have said that industry is quite behind it — but I need more information to consolidate them in my mind. However, I am willing to look at that again as we move into the next mandate.”
“That enabled him to build up experience while he studied and got the qualification that enabled him to have a full-time permanent job. I see the pros and cons of the zero-hours contract, but, as for amending the Bill, our wings are clipped within the lifetime of this Assembly mandate. <BR /> <BR />In amendment No 14, Basil McCrea proposes increasing the qualifying period from one year to two. To be honest, I think that this is quite an interesting amendment, and I am willing to understand it and explore it further. To be honest, I feel entirely uninformed about it. Just hearing about it in a nutshell before lunch was not enough to convince me that we might not put people at a disadvantage by giving employers more opportunities to sack their staff by extending the period to two years.”
“Equally, it was a bit of a struggle because I had a hire purchase agreement at the time, and I was hoping that I would get enough hours every week to pay for it. Fortunately, the employers were biting the hand off me to work for them as much as I could. That flexibility is important, and, as Mr Ross said, we cannot lose it. As Mr McCrea said, employers will seek other opportunities to get the flexibility they want, again squeezing out the people who maybe would have taken a zero-hours contract in the process. <BR /> <BR />As others have said, there is the case of teaching staff and lecturers. My partner is a lecturer in the Northern Regional College (NRC) — I declare that interest — and he started his role with NRC on a zero-hours contract.”