Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“I think that it is fine in a family environment. If anything, that is probably the safest space. There are arguments that this is the last family-friendly space, but why should that burden be on cinemas? We need to be careful with our language. <BR /> <BR />I turn to other amendments. Rachel Woods made some interesting points.”
“Certainly, in the Minister's contribution, she seemed to be leaning towards not putting these into regulations, but I appreciate that she has put it on record today and has put it in writing to the Committee that she will have a public consultation. It seems that that is progressing already, and, hopefully, it will find its way through in the next couple of weeks. <BR /> <BR />Again, I agree with Ms Armstrong that we are delaying the inevitable. Given the challenges presented by some Members about cinemas in particular not only because of the pandemic but because of the ongoing challenge from streaming services, I really think there is an opportunity for cinemas to develop a business model that goes beyond just providing alcohol in theatres. Customers tell me that that is what they want, and I think it can happen in a safe space.”
“In making a winding-up speech, I do not intend to repeat every point made by every Member, but I will pick out some of the key points that I think are interesting and see whether there is a way that we can take any of them forward. I will begin where I started, which is on my amendment. I am disappointed that it is unlikely that it will get support. I am disappointed not least because most of the Members who contributed to the debate on it indicated their support. I have similar concerns to Mr Durkan in that I have a nervousness about this not being taken to where other Members hope it will be taken in the autumn.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I want to go back to the point that Miss Woods made that you are already able to grant this provision under the definition of places of public entertainment. Can you confirm, through legal advice, that it is normal practice that you would conduct a period of public consultation in moving towards that regulation?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Mr Wells pointed to the costs for other businesses. Does the Member have any idea of what it costs local producers to set up? I hear figures of £80,000. Could the suggestion in and around the hours be mitigated if the days were longer? Would the Member accept fewer days if there were more hours per day?”
“The Minister for Communities has tabled amendment No 34, which seeks to amend the new clause. In summary, clause 8B restricts the use of occasional licences by those who hold a taproom licence. I expect that that is directly as a result of provisions in amendment No 19, but, again, I will let the Committee Chairperson and the Minister speak to the details of the amendments. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 61 seeks to amend schedule 1. I feel that this amendment is connected to other amendments, so I look forward to hearing the Minister's rationale to help me to join the dots.”
“The amendments extend the provision in amendment No 19 from 4.00 pm to 10.00 pm to 11.00 am to 11.00 pm. That is a practical consideration and roughly brings those premises into line with other licensed premises, but I am keen to hear from both Members about the rationale before I make my decision. <BR /> <BR />Ms Armstrong has tabled amendment No 31, which seeks to double the number of days when local producers can sell for consumption on their premises. I am not sure whether that relates to earlier amendments that have been discussed. In a sense, it seems excessive, given that it doubles that number, but I am mindful that that is an "up to" figure rather than a maximum. I will be keen to hear Ms Armstrong's contribution and her rationale for that. <BR /> <BR />The Committee's amendment No 33 introduces new clause 8B.”
“The amendment and the back and forth between the Committee and the Department reflect the divided opinion on taprooms not only among Committee members but among those who put forward their views. While I am generally content to support amendment No 19, I will listen with interest to the discussion from the Chair and the Minister relating to amendment Nos 20 to 32. <BR /> <BR />Notably, amendment Nos 28 and 29, tabled by Ms Armstrong and Miss Woods, are similar in their intent, except for an additional hour provided by Ms Armstrong.”
“I support the clause, subject to other amendments, which allows local alcohol producers to apply for a new licence to operate a taproom during limited hours. <BR /> <BR />The new clause provides an opportunity to enhance our tourism offer as well as to support local producers. Yesterday, I spoke in the Assembly of the strength of food tourism in Northern Ireland. Microbreweries, such as Lacada in my constituency, are very much part of our growing food industry. Taprooms will, by opening up new markets, enable producers to sell their produce. I encourage Members to get behind this one too. <BR /> <BR />Amendments Nos 20 to 32 seek to amend amendment No 19, the new clause just discussed.”
“In addition, the amendments seek secondary legislation to prescribe the "content, amount or strength" of the intoxicating liquor in each sample and measure; secondary legislation making powers to alter the "number of samples and measures to be provided"; limited permitted hours for consumption of samples on the premises from 10.00 am to 7.00 pm; opening hours for off-sales remain unchanged; and to provide a definition of "tour". I am content to let the Chair and the Minister speak to the details of those amendments. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 19 introduces new clause 8A. That clause seeks to cover taprooms in the legislation, which was not in the original draft of the Bill. The issue of taprooms is significant and has led to many contributions from stakeholders.”
“Are you voting no because you have concerns or because the Department has asked you to, despite minimal risk? <BR /> <BR />I will now speak briefly to the other amendments in group 2 tabled by the Minister for Communities, the Chairperson on behalf of the Committee for Communities, Ms Kellie Armstrong and Miss Rachel Woods. Amendment Nos 8 to 18 would amend clause 8. The Chairperson of the Committee and the Minister have tabled those amendments. Generally, clause 8 relates to alcohol producers. Committee amendments seek to revise article 52B, "Local producer's licence: sales on own premises". That is to increase the quantity of alcohol that local producers may provide as part of a tour from one sample to:”
“I sincerely hope that the Executive remain until the end of the mandate, if only to salvage any legislation, but I do not trust that they will, so we should not leave to chance anything that we can do now. Further, I have no confidence that the Department will lay its regulations. That comes from, again, experience rather than cynicism. For example, I am trying to convince the Department of Health to lay regulations that it has held for over five years to prevent schoolchildren purchasing e-cigarettes. It still has not done that. <BR /> <BR />Subject to persuasion by other contributions, I will move the amendment. Unless there is unanimous support, Members will be asked to vote. If you intend to vote no, I ask you to consider why, because I know that you agree with this.”
“<BR /> <BR />I appreciate that the Committee is saying that it is content that the Department will progress the intent of the amendment over the summer months towards a potentially positive outcome in the autumn. Subsequently, I have presented the House with an opportunity to effect the same outcome today as what is hoped for in the autumn. Sadly, at this point in my tenure as an MLA, it is experience more than cynicism that makes me believe that we should progress the amendment today. If we delay this opportunity, we may lose this opportunity. These institutions are politically unstable, and anything that happens thereafter is uncertain.”
“It is not a controversial amendment. Had the Department not convinced the Committee otherwise, the amendment would have been tabled by the Committee and not me. It was written for the Committee; indeed, I held back from tabling the amendment because it felt obvious to me that the Committee would support it. It has cross-party support. This idea is fully supported, but, for some reason, the Minister and/or her Department are seeking at minimum to delay or at most to obstruct the process of licensing cinemas. I am a very deliberative politician, and I try to see all sides of the debate. However, I cannot understand what the rationale is here. Unless the Minister can provide a compelling reason, again mindful of the minimal risk, I implore the Committee and other Members to reconsider what they had intended to do from the outset.”
“That did not give rise to any significant concerns or, indeed, any concerns that I am aware of. I appreciate that this is not a public consultation, but suggestions of significant concerns to justify a very specific, focused public consultation are unfounded.”
“The Department has suggested that including cinemas as a place of public entertainment would only increase the number of licensed premises. Of course, it would — but by no more than two dozen across Northern Ireland, and that is assuming that all cinemas will want to provide alcohol. Many will not, but the amendment provides the choice for businesses and customers. <BR /> <BR />I do not accept the Department's need to consult publicly. It has described that consultation as a short, focused exercise over the summer months. I am keen to hear the Minister's view as to why she thinks that that is necessary. Indeed, at Committee Stage, members heard from witnesses and the idea was publicly presented by cinema owners. It was also discussed in the media at that time.”
“If we look to GB and Ireland, we see that consumption is relatively low. It is important that we visualise what this is rather than what it is assumed to be. A cinema is a darkened room of adults. What people have in their hands could be a coke or a beer. It is not a bar or a club; it is a contained environment where people can enjoy something that, as adults, they have a right to. <BR /> <BR />Interestingly enough, cinema businesses suggest that the ask here is not about demand for this particular service but about widening their offer to provide a luxury element, which is a growing trend both nationally and internationally. There is also an interest in providing conferencing events. Cinemas have technology that may not be available in hotels. They can provide a unique service that is needed.”
“I proposed the amendment because I was approached by the cinema in my constituency to see whether it could provide it. Just because the demand does not exist in Northern Ireland to ask for it, that does not mean that demand could not exist and that people would not want it if the offer were presented. <BR /> <BR />Having listened to the evidence provided at Committee, I understand that cinemas do not intend to sell alcohol in the afternoon, nor are they expecting significant consumption. I really cannot imagine anyone going to the cinema to consume large quantities of alcohol. There are other places for that, not least private homes because of how cheaply alcohol can be purchased in supermarkets. This is about offering a choice for adults to have an experience that is enjoyed in every other part of the UK and Ireland.”
“In my constituency, Movie House Cinemas operates in the Jet Centre complex. In that complex, as well as a cinema, there is a children's jungle gym, a bowling alley and amusements. There is also a licensed restaurant in the complex. Consumption of alcohol is obviously contained in the restaurant, but it is a wonderful family-oriented restaurant where many go before they go to the cinema or to bowl. They drink alcohol mere metres away from the same places where it is not currently permitted. My point is that family-oriented environments already sell and permit consumption of alcohol. For that reason, I see no rationale not to allow the same in cinemas.”
“So, not only is this happening already but, to dissuade people of any concerns, it is demonstrated that it can happen in a controlled, safe environment. Cinemas already provide the environment where they can put those controls in place because of classifications on films. They manage age-appropriate situations. That is a safe environment where we can consider the amendment's provisions. <BR /> <BR />I have considered the view that cinemas are a family-oriented environment and that introduction of purchase and consumption of alcohol could disrupt that, but I think that that is unlikely. There are comparable examples where families are welcome despite the sale and consumption of alcohol on site, such as a licensed restaurant, a teenage concert in the Odyssey Arena or a pantomime in the Opera House.”
“Not just yet. <BR /> <BR />The website states:”
“I am not aware of any attempts to reverse the policy or legislation since it came into force in England, Scotland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland. If anything, I understand that it has enhanced the customer experience in those regions and strengthened the businesses that provide it. Removing it would cause more issues than any suggestion that it should not have been there in the first place. <BR /> <BR />There is already a model in Northern Ireland where alcohol can be purchased and consumed while watching a film: Queen's Film Theatre (QFT). That has been happening for eight to nine years. All ages are welcome there. I will quote from its website.”
“Currently in Northern Ireland, patrons can purchase alcohol at theatres such as the Opera House, the Lyric and the MAC but cannot do so at cinemas. Live-show theatres provide a similar experience to cinemas, where both adults and children are welcomed. I appreciate that theatres tend to attract an older audience, but children can and do attend. Indeed, a visit to a theatre can be as much of a family experience as going to the cinema, yet theatres can provide alcohol to their patrons in the presence of children and families whereas cinemas cannot. <BR /> <BR />We are the only region in the United Kingdom and Ireland that does not offer customers the opportunity to buy alcohol and bring the drink into a cinema. I am not aware of any criticism of that position in any other jurisdiction.”
“Thank you, Minister. I appreciate the consistency that is required across the UK to allow competitiveness. However, a teacher in my constituency has raised the point that she feels two years' work will be crammed into one, which she says will put pressure on pupils and teachers. How has the Minister consulted with teachers on the ground in order to understand the realistic delivery of the courses?”
“Thank you, Minister. I appreciate your recognition of the importance of food and drink to our wider tourism sector in Northern Ireland. Is the Department developing any specific programmes to support the sector? For example, we have a wonderful platform on the north coast called Taste Causeway, and rolling out something similar across Northern Ireland would be really beneficial. With the pandemic, a number of food producers and food trucks have popped up across Northern Ireland, but people want to know where they are so that they can go to them. I am keen to hear the Minister's thoughts on how we can do better, specifically in food tourism.”
“I thank the Minister for her response. That will be welcome news, not least for the businesses that will depend on live music to aid their recovery. I also acknowledge the Minister's comments about being tentative moving forward. <BR /> <BR />Does the Minister have any concerns about some of the comments from the UK Government about potentially going into a third wave, particularly where big events are concerned? How is she preparing for that potential outcome?”
“Will the deputy First Minister provide me with an update on the work that has been done around the sustainability of the institutions, specifically on the commitment that provides for a 24-week extension period before an Assembly election is called in the event of political instability?”
“Early years provision is typically provided by community and voluntary groups. How does the Minister envisage early years being delivered given that investment?”
“I thank the Minister for the report. It is a good report, but it needs to sit in a wider context. I am looking forward to the next mandate rather than to your successor to see what a Programme for Government will look like and how the report will sit within it. The Minister is entirely right: this is not just up to his Department and will require cross-departmental work, not least at the other end in further and higher education, but also with the Department of Health on mental health and resilience. The Minister talked about health and well-being, but I would like to see more specifics on mental health and resilience, because schools and the education system have a real opportunity to address that. <BR /> <BR />The £50 million per year for early years is quite significant.”
“It was Eimear's wish that we do better for children and young people who are being treated for life-threatening illnesses, and I sincerely hope that we can.”
“Those needs should be met by delivering age-appropriate services for all 13- to 24-year-olds in line with current recommendations, by commissioning that encompasses a range of services from fertility preservation to the self-management of issues such as anxiety and fatigue and by the provision of specialist staff who can communicate effectively with young people. Elsewhere in the UK, specialist care delivered in age-appropriate settings, in line with National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) guidelines, has been transformational for young people with cancer. <BR /> <BR />On behalf of Eimear, her dad, Seán Smyth, her family and friends, and all patients and families living with a cancer diagnosis, I formally present the petition of 3,630 signatures.”
“Cancer may also affect you emotionally and in your everyday life in education, starting work and relationships. Becoming independent from your family can be complicated for any young person, and it is even harder when you are facing cancer. <BR /> <BR />All ill teenagers and young people should receive high-quality care in appropriate settings. In order to ensure a high standard of treatment and care for young people with cancer in Northern Ireland, it is important that we recognise the unique needs of teenagers and young adults.”
“Eimear Gooderham was just 22 when she was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma, and, sadly, she passed away three years later after complications from a donor stem cell transplant. Despite battling blood cancer, it was Eimear's wish to raise awareness of stem cell donation. After Eimear's passing, in her memory, her family promised to continue raising awareness of stem cell donation and blood cancers and to campaign for better services for those suffering from life-threatening illnesses and particularly for age-appropriate care for teenagers and young adults. <BR /> <BR />When you are diagnosed with cancer as a young person, your needs are very different to those of younger children or older adults because your body may still be developing. That can affect the type of treatment you need and how your body responds to it.”
“I thank the Minister for his attention. He will know that this has a significant impact for the rest of people's lives. Will he commit to introducing the regulations before the end of the mandate?”
“If we want to support rural communities, protect farming families and ensure that local produce stays local to ensure security of food supply so that farmers can feed themselves and their families as well as creating a sustainable and fair livelihood, maybe the Bill needs to look at tackling industrial farming. <BR /> <BR />I will leave it there, but it is important, as I have said a number of times in my contribution, that we listen to these concerns, not to reject the Bill but to try to shape it, improve it and ensure that we get backing from all in Northern Ireland.”
“If agri-food continues to farm livestock in some form, perhaps there are better ways of doing it. Maybe that model already exists on these islands and people can learn from our model. <BR /> <BR />Carbon emissions also seem to be a problem for industrial farming, and yet, despite concerns raised over many years, we have encouraged large industrial farms across Northern Ireland, in which the only benefit to farmers is the rent of the land. As a consequence, the overproduction of manure by-product, which our lands can no longer take, is polluting our environment. These issues sit alongside driving down farmgate prices, as industrial farming increases supply with declining demand.”
“Do we add to our carbon footprint if we use aeroplanes and other transport to bring it in? I am not sure about the weight of that argument, especially as intensive farming increases and more food is exported out of Northern Ireland, but it is worth exploring. I hope that this legislative process addresses that concern and reassures that significant sector of our economy. Agriculture is a significant part of the economy in Northern Ireland, and it is only fair that we listen to the sector's concerns, if not reassure it. <BR /> <BR />Ireland is well known for its grass-fed beef and dairy cattle, in contrast to the grain-fed cattle in other parts of the world. I understand that that adds to the issue. That type of farming replenishes the land, and that can help with carbon emissions.”
“Can they offset carbon emissions through better countryside management schemes such as replacing all fences with hedgerows, growing out unused land and exploring new crops that are suited to NI's climate so that the net zero target is less challenging to meet than they expect? If we genuinely care about the planet in its entirety, rather than just about our very small corner of it, maybe we should stop exporting our waste. Shipping the issue away on a big boat does not remove the issue; it sends it elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />That leads me to an interesting concern raised by farmers. By reducing our food production from livestock, do we reduce our supply in spite of static or growing demand? If demand remains consistent, then where does the food come from, if not locally?”
“It is important, as part of this process, to acknowledge their concerns, if only to reassure them, in the hope that we can strengthen this Bill and, if necessary, shape it to meet the core objective of addressing climate change. It is not in the spirit of the Bill to diminish livelihoods, to decimate the economy, to undermine the security of food supply or to remove the heart of rural communities. Rather, the Bill seeks to encourage collective responsibility for future generations. <BR /> <BR />I want farmers to contribute to the conversation so that we do not get it wrong and create unintended consequences. I want them to be part of the solution, as they have told me they already are.”
“I suggest that the issue may be one not of climate action, but rather one of government inaction. It has taken a private Member's Bill, with very little time left in the mandate, to actually do something, because our Government have not done anything. I appreciate that the Department is developing its own legislation, and I genuinely welcome that, but if this private Member's Bill serves only to force the Government to do their job, then I am grateful to all those involved. <BR /> <BR />It should not be that way, however. The Government need to get a grip on this issue now; I know that, most Members of the House know that and the public knows that. If the Government cannot do it on their own, then this legislation will support them to do it. <BR /> <BR />I will come back to our stakeholders.”
“<BR /> <BR />In another part of my constituency, a farmer is growing acres of hemp: the wonder crop for a sustainable environment. It loves Northern Ireland's wet climate. It literally grows as if it is a weed. It improves soils, has no emissions and offsets carbon from elsewhere, such as from other industries. Even the licence to grow hemp here is free, but trying to encourage Northern Ireland government and its various agencies to see what is good for them, as well as for Northern Ireland and the environment, is incredibly frustrating. <BR /> <BR />I say all of that to demonstrate why farmers are nervous about this radical change. As a co-sponsor of the Bill, I believe that this change is good. I want to convey why it is good, but I am sympathetic to those who fear it.”
“Like other Members, I have spent much time speaking with farmers and groups such as the Ulster Farmers' Union over these past few weeks. They expressed many concerns, but, in fairness, they also acknowledged the need for climate change legislation and argued that they are ahead in trying to find solutions to the climate problems. For example, a farmer in my constituency collects tyres to be reused by being processed into mattresses. He tells me that, as a main method of disposal, the majority of tyres in Northern Ireland will either end up on bonfires or on a very big bonfire across the world. Huge ships collect this waste from Belfast and take the problem elsewhere, despite the fact that a local business offers a local environmental solution. When that farmer presented his idea to statutory agencies, it was dismissed.”
“They tell me that that is due to our climate — poor weather — and our countryside not being conducive to arable farming because it is hilly and stony. Farmers say that much of our land is only good for grazing. To be honest, I really do not know, and I am not sure about it. However, I will not claim to know more about farming land than farmers do, so it is important that we listen to all stakeholders, if only to reassure them.”
“It is interesting that the commissioner will be appointed by the Crown, on nomination by the Assembly, to allow maximum independence from government. That is important because it means that politics cannot come into this and that someone is dedicated to taking forward the climate needs of our society. All that demonstrates the Assembly's commitment to addressing climate change. <BR /> <BR />I represent a rural constituency in East Londonderry. A considerable number of farmers in the area have contacted me to share their concerns. Whether unfounded or not, there is genuine fear in the agricultural sector that they will be disproportionately impacted by the Bill, primarily because, they say, Northern Ireland is a livestock region.”
“We owe it to future generations to do what we can to prevent the further decline of our environment and to give children and young people, and those yet to be born, a fighting chance of climate recovery. <BR /> <BR />Clause 2 relates to the creation of climate action plans, with details to address the challenges of climate change in Northern Ireland. A plan must be laid before the Assembly within three years of enactment of the Bill, and every five years thereafter — a clear path of action. Those plans must be approved by the Assembly and achieve the overriding climate objective of net zero carbon. Scrutiny is the key to democracy. It is not there to undermine; it is there to improve and strengthen. <BR /> <BR />Clauses 5 to 10 and schedules 1 and 2 establish a Northern Ireland climate office and a Northern Ireland climate commissioner.”
“I almost feel a bit incompetent following that great speech by Miss Woods. <BR /> <BR />I support this historic Second Stage of the Climate Change Bill. I also acknowledge the concerns because that, too, is our responsibility. This is primary legislation; it is not prescriptive. It provides a legislative basis and a mandate to build a climate policy. It is a process, not an event. A process that, I hope, will enable stakeholders from all sides of the debate to contribute to and shape that policy. <BR /> <BR />Clause 1 provides for the declaration of a climate emergency from the date of Royal Assent. It is an acknowledgement that climate change exists, and it fully supports government to address the biggest issue of our time, one that has transcended generations and which will outlive each of us.”
“I also put on record my condemnation of the attack in my constituency. <BR /> <BR />I see opportunities in working from home. I also recognise that there might need to be a hybrid model. What savings can we identify? Moving forward, what lessons can be learned from the positive benefits for family life and for getting women back into the workplace?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. That was going to be my follow-up: will this include families? You rightly point out that that provision is what has been missing. Certainly, in correspondence that I have received, I see that it is affecting our communities. Can we expect a time frame for the next phase so that families can be included, even on an outdoors basis? Can we meet in groups with families face to face outside?”
“<BR /> <BR />Let us put this into perspective: a part-time team, 49th in the world, largely made up of amateur players drawn from a domestic league, playing their hearts out to make their dreams come true. They sacrificed their personal lives and committed to achieving success, not only for themselves but for Northern Ireland. This is huge, and I appreciate the opportunity to recognise it today. They will be the only debutantes at the tournament. They are the first women bringing us a European Championship. That is remarkable. We need to get behind them because we are all part of the green and white army. Let us put our money where our mouth is and support these women to victory.”
“We need more Kennys in the world to inspire our young people to be the best that they can be, as he has for these women. Captain Marissa Callaghan said, "They did not stand a chance because we believed in ourselves." What a message to send out to young people, young girls in particular. Someone described this as the biggest success in Northern Ireland's sporting history. That is incredible, and I agree. Someone else said that women's football in Northern Ireland can kick on from here. Absolutely, and I join Mr Nesbitt and others in saying that the Northern Ireland Executive need to look at women's football and community football across Northern Ireland. The Executive need to start investing in stadiums so that we can build these young people and have future players like Marissa.”